EP. 53 — A Look Into Tabloid Culture with Dean Piper

Jameela: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, I hope that you’re well, I am fine. I’ve just started a new job in the last week or so. I’m shitting myself because I feel very rusty and underprepared and freaked out. And filming during covid is extremely odd, though. I’m so excited and grateful to be back at work, but oh, I feel like a beginner again. I wonder if any of you are going through the same thing now that everyone’s getting vaccinated, the world is opening back up. Are any of you facing anxiety about the world opening back up? I’ve expressed that before during many of my intros, my fear of who I am and how the hell I’m going to cope at something called a party if I ever go to one of those again. Anyway, I am. I’ll keep you posted, I guess, as best as I can about how I’m how I’m doing on this new job. I think you’ll just be able to gauge it from the tension in my voice. But wish me luck. Now, today’s episode means a lot to me. It’s a conversation I’ve wanted to have for ages and I didn’t quite know how I was going to go about it. If you have been following me for a while, you might know that I am obsessed with how damaging tabloid media is, in particular to women. I really believe in the system of build women up specifically to rip them down. And I’ve had conversations before this podcast. Just last week I had Kelly Rowland on the podcast being extraordinary. If you have not had the episode, please go back and listen to it. She’s so amazing. And I feel as though not enough people in the world, even though she’s got 10 million followers on Instagram, still, that is not enough people in the world knowing what just a gem and an icon this woman is to go back and listen to that. But she and I touched on, you know, media interference in her career, what it was like dealing with that much misogyny, so many lies. And while it’s all good and well and so important to have this conversation with those who are suffering from this dynamic, it’s also really important to have this conversation with those who were on the other side with one of the journalists. And I just so happen to know someone who dipped out of tabloid journalism about eight years ago. He just was fed up. He could see the ugliness and he just didn’t want anything more to do with such a horrifying industry. He’d seen so many awful things and just been a part of so many things that he was feeling ashamed of and uncomfortable with. And so long before this Britney documentary came out, long before the Paris Hilton documentary came out, long before Meghan Markle even was a name that many of us knew this person had left. His name is Dean Piper, and he’s a really, really wonderfully open, sincere, accountable, intelligent and good person. And he came onto this podcast, which I thought was really brave because not a lot of people who have been in tabloid culture who are ever want to own up to any of their part in the rampant misogyny that seeps from tabloid media into our society. But Dean just came on with nothing to hide. And we just had a very soothing and healing conversation about all of that, where I got to ask him what it’s like, you know, what goes through the mind of someone who’s in tabloid culture. How does it work? What is the system of build up and rip down? And he answered a lot of my questions. And I just found it really interesting and and an important lesson, because it’s great to finally meet one of the makers, even though he doesn’t do it now. He was someone who did a very high level for a long time. And so perhaps if you are someone who reads these articles or who clicks on those websites, who clicks on the pictures, who shares them, whoo shares the memes. Don’t worry, we’re all there with you. I’ve done it, too. It’s important to understand the inner workings of what it is that you’re buying into, that you will accidentally, maybe even funding with your clicks, with your shares, with your algorithms. This episode is not just about tabloid media or celebrity. It’s also about public accountability, the things that we can do as members of the public to protect people in the public eye, but mostly women are mostly just taking into account that fine, even if you don’t give a shit about public figures because they’re super privileged and really, who cares? I don’t mind that I’m I’m all here for however anyone would feel about, you know, not wanting to be protective over the most protected people in the world. I totally get that. But we have to think about the fact that this culture bleeds into schools, it bleeds into offices, it bleeds into workplaces everywhere. And so it is important for us to combat it in order to make sure that we build a safer world for us and future generations. And with everything going on this week, like poor old Khloe, Khloe Kardashian, who we don’t discuss in this episode, we recorded it just before this mess of her posting lots of pictures of herself on holiday. You know clearly breathing in so her ribs, are exposed and very stylized, posed photographs, quite possibly quite edited, and then someone else posted a picture of her unedited and she looked a bit different. She looked fantastic in the unedited photograph, in my opinion, much better than she does in any editing photograph. Like a real person, she looks beautiful. She is happy, she looks free. She’s not closing her eyes and sucking in her stomach or she can’t breathe. She just looks free and young and cool. And sadly, she sees that photograph and just sees only flaws. And to try to get that photograph taken down off the Internet is perfectly fine photograph. And as soon as you try and do something like that, as soon as you start to take extreme actions to stop the world finding out about something that is often when it becomes the most viral, because that’s just human nature and people want to do and see what is forbidden. And it’s just been a fucking mess and. As much as I have a you know, I have made my problems with the Kardashians known over the years because I hate that they do perpetuate these false edited ideals and beauty standards that they uphold. Which frustrate me, I I also feel really fucking bad for them, and I’ve said this all along, that they wouldn’t be this obsessed with diet, culture, with their appearance. They wouldn’t probably promote this much stuff around their esthetic if they hadn’t been so bullied and scrutinized by the media, but also by the public, anyone who’s ever shared any articles, fat shaming them, commenting on their looks, even to just complain about the article, but mostly any of us who’ve ever shared those articles or those memes who’ve ever enjoyed the gossip around the Kardashians, when people are making fun of the way they look, we’ve all been part of the problem. We’ve all perpetuated their perpetuation. Is that a word? Of this cycle of fat phobia and self-hate. And so, again, it feels like a very timely moment to discuss tabloid media, the public, our obsession with women, our obsession with shitting on women. This is just an episode that I’ve been hoping for for ages, and I’m so lucky that Dean was willing to come on and be vulnerable with me about it. So please enjoy, honestly, one of my favorite tracks I’ve had in a while with the excellent Dean Piper. Welcome to I Weigh. How are you? [00:08:22][502.4]

Dean: [00:08:23] Thank you for having me on. Good. Really good. [00:08:25][2.0]

Jameela: [00:08:26] I haven’t seen you in years. I have not seen bloody years. [00:08:30][3.8]

Dean: [00:08:30] I mean, we do go way back, don’t we? Like, we used to do the circuit like nobody else. [00:08:35][4.7]

Jameela: [00:08:35] Yeah. So I, I started in this business in about probably 2009, early 2009. And I met you at the very beginning of my career. You were a journalist. I was a young TV, new TV host and talent. And, uh, and this was a it was a scary time in the rise of tabloid culture, just as I had entered the industry. And you were one of the only nice journalists that I met in my entire time as a public figure in the U.K. And you have had such an incredible ride in and out of celebrity showbiz culture. So given everything that’s happened with the recent Britney Spears documentary, the Paris Hilton documentary, and also the new old clips of Lindsay Lohan that have been surfacing of how she’s been mistreated by by big mainstream media figures like Letterman, et cetera. And then also, of course, what we saw earlier this year with Meghan Markle and the way she was hounded by the media and the ongoing way she’s been hounded for the last four years. I couldn’t think of anyone I would rather, oh, holding up a Harry and Megan cup in solidarity. I wanted to talk to someone who’d been on the inside of the machine, someone who could break down a tabloid culture, showbiz culture, celebrity culture for us all so we could understand how we got to this point and and what the mentality is behind it. What is the goal and and what is the impact of that, not just on the celebrities, but on our society and also on the journalists who have to participate in that themselves. And as someone who left. Well, eight years ago. Seven years ago. [00:10:24][108.3]

Dean: [00:10:24] Yeah, I think it was about eight years ago. I mean, just to start off with, you could not have broken into the industry at a worse time. [00:10:31][7.3]

Jameela: [00:10:34] I know [00:10:35][0.2]

Dean: [00:10:36] it was literally the pits. It was like, oh, good. You know, we were at every event and everything was just crumbling around us. And I guess you were just at the point when social media was just starting to erupt. [00:10:47][10.6]

Jameela: [00:10:48] Yeah, I. I was 2009 when Twitter started when I joined Twitter anyway. And that was I was I got into trouble internationally on my first tweet. [00:10:57][9.2]

Dean: [00:10:59] That doesn’t surprise me actually. You carried on. [00:11:04][5.2]

Jameela: [00:11:04] It was unbelievable. I was being like shamed by Australian tabloids over and over my first ever tweet. It was and it was a careless, shitty tweet that I thought I was being funny and didn’t understand. Humor does not translate well over text. However, you left eight years ago before it was trendy to denounce this industry and before it was trendy to say it is an unacceptable way to live, to treat people like we are contributing to a sickness in society. And therefore, I didn’t want someone to come on here who’s only just had that kind of revelation. Now that we’re all turning on the tabloids like I really wanted you here. [00:11:43][39.0]

Dean: [00:11:44] I think that having eight years to just sit back and look at the industry and look where it is and look at the way that all of the news outlets are pretty much still doing what they were doing back then. I mean, maybe in a bit more of a legal way. But if we take it right the way back to when I first started in 2001, that was a completely different celebrity culture. You know, we didn’t have social media. We were still coming off the back of the Spice Girls and all of these people that had this amazing freedom in their career, as you know. Yeah, sure. They have paparazzi in their heads, all of that to deal with. But they actually were able to have a bit of anonymity and they were able to. [00:12:25][40.1]

Jameela: [00:12:25] Control the narrative a bit. [00:12:26][1.2]

Dean: [00:12:27] Yeah, they were. You know, and also, from my point of view, I mean, you will get to many events. And I think we went to blue in every party for about four years on the trot. But it was fun back then. You know, we were going out with Courtney Love. We were in the same restaurant as Madonna. We were going on tour with Kylie and getting a really good exclusive. We were kind of in this amazing bubble and it was like going behind a velvet rope. And I feel like within those kind of six or seven years when it kind of got to the noughties and everything starts to really get pretty twisted and effed up, we realized that it wasn’t a game. You know, there was there was so many serious implications by the fact that the showbiz journalists, we were basically making a living and reveling in people’s misery. [00:13:21][53.8]

Jameela: [00:13:22] Yeah, it was a it was an odd it was an odd transition, wasn’t it? Because I still remember the kind of the golden era of the Cameron Diaz the Julia Roberts era where it felt like there was like an element of royalty to them. And should there be that kind of hierarchy in society? Probably not. However, it felt like the media and talent had more of a kind of mutually beneficial relationship. But there was a respect of like, I need you, you need me, let’s be nice to each other, let’s be real. It’s not always going to be perfect and rosy, but let’s get along because we’re in this shit together. And what I feel like you told me a story about you being in a toilet with Courtney Love and she was putting her makeup on you. Do you know what I mean? I mean, this is I could [00:14:03][41.6]

Dean: [00:14:04] This was one that was one of the first things that I did when I became a journalist. I went to the Mirror. I’m twenty one. I have no idea what I’m doing. I come from a local newspaper where I wrote about dog crossing the road. I got out of there in eight months and I go and start working for Piers Morgan. You know, at the time, working for him was brilliant because he was such a supportive editor. Obviously there’s questions about the person nowadays, but that was brilliant because I was out in that scene and Courtney too me to the loo at the Lord of the Rings premiere, that’s how old we are. And she took knickers out of her bag, put them on my head, said she’d do the interview while she’s having a piss and then comes out. She talked to me about Kurt. You know, she wasn’t in a very good way. Its you know looking back on it. It wasn’t really the best time to be speaking to someone. But at the end of it, I do remember that she kind of slapped me around the cheek. She said, if you stitch me up, I will hunt you down, motherfucker. She just walked out and I said, that’s showbiz. You know, that’s someone that gets the game. We were all working out. I wrote a thrilling piece. She was really happy with it. She sent me a message about it. Courtney is one of those celebs that’s always had a source on the inside. You know, she’s worked with the media. That’s old school. It’s not like that now. [00:15:21][76.5]

Jameela: [00:15:21] No. And and now it’s kind of turned from a from a mutually beneficial relationship and a relationship of some respect and some trust to at least report fairly into showbiz journalists kind of turning into spies. You know, they they they have become people who get planted at the backstage area of festivals or in restaurants or clubs. I know that you have experience of that evidence of seeing that at least. [00:15:48][27.1]

Dean: [00:15:49] I mean, that was my first job. You know, I had to be a sleuth that was going to nightclubs. I was in China White with, you know, P. Diddy one night Eve and Gwen Stefani, the next Spice Girls know it was it was pretty full on. [00:16:01][11.4]

Jameela: [00:16:01] So you were invited to come and sit with them. [00:16:04][2.1]

Dean: [00:16:05] Oh, no. I just sidle up. You know, I do remember being on a dance floor with all of these bodyguards, and it was just me, Ditty, my friend that had invited me. And I’m just having a chat with Diddy. And you know, when you’re like, God, what’s going on? Like, I’m twenty two. I’ve just got into this industry and a party repeatedly, by the way, you’d be going home at five a.m.. We didn’t have Internet. We couldn’t record everything. We couldn’t go oh could I get some quotes? I was typing them in a Nokia 8210 and sending them to my editor. Yeah. Remind me to tell you about that tomorrow when I got home blasted at five am and then back on my desk by ten. Yeah it was, it was you were kind of living the rock and roll lifestyle that they were living, which is slightly worrying in some ways. [00:16:53][48.0]

Jameela: [00:16:54] One hundred percent. [00:16:54][0.4]

Dean: [00:16:55] You kind of came out the end of it. I remember I always kind of had a break before I changed jobs and it usually involved a dark room, curtains closed, Golden Girls repeats and just hoping that you could get out for a few days and just feel normal. [00:17:10][15.3]

Jameela: [00:17:10] You were a secret 3:00 a.m. boy, right? [00:17:12][1.6]

Dean: [00:17:13] That was the plan, yes. So I kind of joined the girls when those three a.m. call ins those that don’t know was pretty much the height of celebrity gossip. And they weren’t nice people. They were that they were there to push buttons and they were there to be proper showbiz journalists and have an opinion. They were kind of a bit like what people have got as power now. They can say what they wanted about people who thought they could get away with it. Right. In those days, you kind of you knew that you have to take some shtick to get your name out there and to be in that position. So even though they were kind of arch enemies between showbiz columnists and the celebrity, both parties knew that without one or the other wouldn’t exist. So. It was it was a different time. [00:18:03][49.6]

Jameela: [00:18:04] Yeah, I remember my first understanding that the press weren’t on my side or the press weren’t necessarily to be trusted was 2009. This is going way back. I was with a singer, called Will Young, who was huge in the UK at the time, and also one of the only openly like out gay singers. So there was so much extra media interest in him at the time and we were talking and having a very open chat at a at a festival bench together with the little table at it. And and a journalist had been with us. And as soon as she got up to leave, we started chatting and I started really opening up to him about how I was struggling with what felt like very overnight success. And he just put his hand over my mouth immediately, just very, very quickly and firmly and. And made a kind of silence gesture with his own hand and mouth and then hid her phone, he hid her BlackBerry that she’d left at the table and it was recording. And that was the first time I’d understood that oh, so you can’t you can’t say anything anyway. You can’t do anything from the three a.m. girls in that column I learned never like to piss in complete silence and get in and wash your hands, get out the toilet. They would hide in the toilet cubicles to be able to hear what was being said by the celebrities. Like I not you. I mean, the girls and I and and it was it was it was hard to get to know anyone from your side. And I think really only you and one other woman were the two that I ever could have trusted to even have a basic conversation with because it felt like you felt like you were being hunted when you were on the receiving end of it. [00:19:53][108.7]

Dean: [00:19:54] I just just to give you my side of things. And how I was thrown into it. I was if you imagine just being a twenty one year old that just got this job. I was twenty two and I was told to go. I was like you want to fly to Amsterdam. And I thought, OK, cool. Wow. That’s glamorous. I’d only ever flown to I think New York to interview Shakira for one hour and then flown straight home. So it was like Amsterdam sounds cool and got there and they said right when you get there, Robbie Williams is staying in the Grand Hotel. So we booked you a hotel room in the grounds. And I was like Wow. So I can stay at the Grand. They put some serious they have money then. They’ve got no money now. [00:20:34][40.4]

Jameela: [00:20:36] Good. [00:20:36][0.0]

Dean: [00:20:37] I kind of sat in reception after having a shower all posh. Going oh cool. What’s going to happen tonight? Robbie was probably his worst with his addiction problems at the MTV Awards. Robbie never showed. But about 11:00 p.m. that night, Gareth Gates came downstairs and that was really my only option. So I had a photographer with me and I had to well I checked with the news desk that they were keen and I just had to trail him while they went through the red light district. And you can imagine what they did. It was, you know, pop star Gareth. I think he was 18. I mean, he was so young. And I exposed his night in Amsterdam looking in windows and he went to a club, which, let’s face it, it was a very famous club in Amsterdam, which was known as a bondage club. It was one guy wearing leather in a corner of a room but suddenly it was like a big deal. But, you know, you look back on that need to say, not only was I going to follow around, Robbie, I’ve got loads of respect for. He really wasn’t in a position to have a journalist following him around. I didn’t really understand the implication of what I was doing as a person to somebody like he was 18 years old, you know, and I don’t know whether he knows it was me. I didn’t get to know him, I knew Will a bit. But, you know, they were so famous and you were just using their you know, it was a two hour walk with their manager to paint them as different people. [00:22:10][92.7]

Jameela: [00:22:11] 100 percent, and I mean, look, there’s so many things to discuss. I also want to make sure that I don’t sit here from a position of, like, perfect little princess and victim. You know, I was also somewhat halfway between the two cultures because as much as I was a public figure, I was also a journalist in that I was a TV journalist. So I was interviewing people on television. And I have spoken out for years about my regrets on T4 or of being part of what was quite a snide culture of just hipsters who would be provocative and rude to really famous people, and it felt like it was OK because it was part of our British culture to kind of punch up, you know, you felt like, oh, well, if someone’s more powerful than you or more famous than you, it’s fair game to sort of like poke at them on live television. And it was something that I always felt hugely uncomfortable with. And I would always beg and, like, push back and not want to do it. I remember this kind of the kind of breaking point for me was being trying was was, you know, a producer at T4 trying to force me to play a game with Tinie Tempah, who’s a rapper who no, sorry, with Tinchy Stryder, who is a rapper who’s already small in his he’s already a small in his stature, and that’s why he’s called himself that name Tinchy Stryder. And they wanted me to play a game with him called What Things in the World Are Bigger Than You? On live television that he wouldn’t be prepared for where we go through things in the world that are bigger than him and I’m already 5 foot 11, I’m already significantly taller than this man on television. We live in a culture that belittles men who are shorter than women, and they want me to take a 21 year old small black man and humiliate him on television as I tower over him. And I said, no, that was that was the final time. I was just like, no, fuck you guys like, this is it? I can’t, like, just fire me. And the producer threw a chair across a room in rage with me to kind of intimidate me and then, like, stormed out of the room and that was it. That’s when I just moved to radio, is just I just didn’t want to do it anymore. I couldn’t be complicit in that. But I was still a bit complicit in it. I was still a bit snarky. I was still a bit rude. And it’s only now that I have become an actor where I’m on the receiving end of that, that I understand how that feels. And so I do. You know, part of why I wanted you to come on here is also is not just to showcase you as someone who did that, but just to say that we were all hyper normalized in a culture that was really gross and weird and dehumanizing. The way I used to speak about celebrities online was so dehumanizing. And if I can come to L.A. and have to meet all of them or my boyfriend works with them and I have to apologize to them, even though they don’t know about the thing, I just feel this need to repent. [00:24:55][164.5]

Dean: [00:24:56] Well that’s exactly you know, I will tell you this. I kind of feel like at the moment with what’s happening with showbiz journalism, celebrity journalism, I don’t know whether it’s exactly the same in Los Angeles, but, you know, a lot of the old school people and all of this that we don’t have in the old days we’ve we’ve taken time out. We’re looking at what’s happening. And, you know, in light of loads of things that happened in the last few months or years, you know, we realized what we did, you know, and we are repenting. We’re going through you know, when I was one of the celebrity weeklies, Amy Winehouse died, Jake Goody died, Britney Spears had the biggest mental breakdown and we basically treated them like a circus animal, you know, and it’s very hard discussion. And suddenly in a way that I do want to call you up on Jameela just because I think it’s an important discussion that we, we think about the media in three separate ways. I think there’s a paparazzi problem. It’s a big problem. There’s the publications themselves and then we’ve now got this problem with the public and the power that they have. [00:26:03][67.0]

Jameela: [00:26:04] Exactly. [00:26:04][0.0]

Dean: [00:26:05] They’ve become the snarky showbiz reporters that we were 12 years ago. And that’s really worrying because you can’t you know, we’re not going to be able to stop that seems that, it’s the internet. You know, people are going to say mean things and it’s very hard to manage a celebrity now. Like I don’t know how you deal with what you put yourself through. [00:26:23][18.8]

Jameela: [00:26:25] I have struggled with handling being in the public eye. I’ve really struggled with knowing how to be my authentic self, but also not to the point where I make myself vulnerable to the world and where my vulnerability can’t be used against me, as we know, because I’ve said in the public eye several times before, I have tried to take my life during the course of my career because everything just got so overwhelming. And I am an emotionally vulnerable person who was in a world that I wasn’t prepared for. But I also feel as though now it’s become easier for me because I’ve started to understand that I that this isn’t all as personal as I think it is, that when I receive personal attacks, they’re not necessarily specifically designed for me. I’ve started to wonder if there’s a bigger pattern at play, and I feel as though I’ve been alive long enough to watch this happen to so many in particular women, the build up, build up, build up, rip her down, that it feels so formulaic that I started to feel as though, oh, this would have happened to anyone, probably more so because I poke the bear more than my peers. I understand that. I take responsibility for that. I also fuck up more than my peers. [00:27:36][71.0]

Dean: [00:27:37] Hands up. [00:27:37][0.1]

Jameela: [00:27:37] Yup, but but it does feel as though I’m sometimes being used as an example, right. Like don’t speak out, don’t be different, don’t fight back against the press. Otherwise this is what we’ll do to you. Like kind of like a warning shot for other women in influence or even just women in the world. Like don’t stand out, don’t stand out, don’t speak out, otherwise you will be punished. And so there’s something weirdly empowering in realizing that pattern, because then it makes me it just kind of gives me a bit more of a feeling of, oh, no, fuck you then I’m not going to play that game. Do you think in like over the course of your time when you were working within tabloid media? Like, am I. Am I crazy here? Is there a system that build her up build her up rip her down? [00:28:22][45.2]

Dean: [00:28:23] No you’re not crazy. I mean, to be honest, isn’t that celebrity? I kind of feel like that’s part of that whole fame game and I don’t think it’s necessarily something that’s been introduced that recently. I think that if you look back to you know Hollywood days, the royals, Diana, you know, it’s something that’s been brewing and I think probably from Princess Diana is when that really went into the spectrum. And we’ve really over that whole few years where she was coming to becoming who she was and the media obviously had a field day. And there were other celebrities that were standing up and it was strong. That was that the Madonna Madonna was like having Playboy pictures of her nude being put in the press the next day she was selling out Wembley that she was thrown back down. You know, it’s a format that works for the media and it’s a format that unfortunately, I don’t really think has disappeared in any way. I feel like at the moment, with everything that’s happening, I feel like women are getting a much bigger voice. I feel like there’s some sort of movement with regards to the positive effect of social media where people are finding their feet. And they’re actually saying oh no this isn’t the way it should be. But, you know, let’s look at a show like The X Factor I was week in week out interviewing the likes of Dannii Minogue like I became quite good friends with at one point and Cheryl Cole and all of these kind of play puppets that were on the television when we were back in the UK. And both of those girls didn’t know what they would getting themselves into. They couldn’t handle the machine that was at work amongst them. They didn’t realize until it was too late that they were the puppets and they were sat in those panels and for that TV show. And, you know, I’m sure that Simon told his hands up and he played them. They were the media puppets. [00:30:26][122.3]

Jameela: [00:30:26] What do you mean? [00:30:26][0.3]

Dean: [00:30:27] One day everything would be good. I mean, as [00:30:29][1.8]

Jameela: [00:30:29] if that was a controversy around their lives, the more people tuning in to watch the show. [00:30:33][3.7]

Dean: [00:30:34] It was every slice of the pie, it wasn’t just two slices that they could take, it was the element of the media wanting to know about their private life, every inch of their private lives, who they were dating, who they were divorcing, what was happening with their babies, [00:30:48][13.1]

Jameela: [00:30:49] which ones thinner. [00:30:50][0.5]

Dean: [00:30:50] They were. [00:30:50][0.2]

Jameela: [00:30:50] Pitting them against each other. [00:30:51][1.0]

Dean: [00:30:52] Well, that happened do you remember that year when it was Dannii versus Cheryl. It was so uncomfortable to watch, especially when I was on set and I was seeing what they were going through. And, you know, they unfortunately, they probably would have got on absolutely fine, but everyone was just kind of going oh what do you think about Cheryl? Cheryl looks like this or, you know, Dannii was then being pitted against her for the fashion. Being pitted against the size of her body being pitted for what she says in the press. Every inch of it was just a lynch mob. It was really hard to watch. [00:31:26][33.9]

Jameela: [00:31:27] How is this such an organized system? That’s the thing that I don’t understand. And you may not even have the answer for this, but the thing that blows my mind is that it’s the same thing again and again and again. Let’s take Jennifer Lawrence, for example, right where she she came. She comes out of nowhere. Right. She’s 19, 20 years old. Hilarious. Really good at chat show interviews, super relatable, talking about farting and, you know, getting blackout drunk and throwing up in front of, like Miley Cyrus, all these different things that she was our relatable girl. She fell over when she was going to pick up her Oscar, we thought it was the most charming thing in the world. And then a year and a half goes by and the attitude is now and I’m definitely holding the public responsible and also being complicit in this. But the attitude but the attitude is like, oh, God, it’s her again, attention seeking, trying to be so over relatable, like, oh, look, she fell over again, probably faked that everything about her insincere stop pretending to be so relatable. It was so interesting to watch us hate her for the same thing that we had loved her for such a short period of time ago. And I talk about this a lot on my Instagram where I think that the I think the method is like you build her up, built her up, build her up, hyperbolize how amazing you think she is. And then I think that you overexpose her so the public becomes sick of her and starts to think that she’s got a big head. Because if someone’s being bigged up this much all the time, they must become a little bit arrogant. And if they’re not constantly fighting all of the compliments all the time and constantly self-deprecating, then you think she’s bought into her own hype. Therefore, she’s now primed for a takedown. So when the media starts savaging her with smears or she’s difficult, she’s unlikable or she’s she’s been dishonest about this, etc. we’re so like our appetite is ready. [00:33:08][101.7]

Dean: [00:33:09] Look at Taylor Swift it’s the same as Taylor like she’s just gone through exactly the same thing. And, you know, I have been thinking about this because I know that we touched on this earlier. But the different sides of when you say media, it has to encapsulate the public because, you know, the powers like the meme and us waking up and seeing something written about Taylor that can take people down. Look at Mel B when she went on to with Avid Merrion did his take off of B, you know, he took her out. Craig David got taken out by [00:33:39][30.2]

Jameela: [00:33:40] For anyone who doesn’t know. This is a comedian in the U.K., Leigh Francis, who used to make some quite racially insensitive parodies of some people. And I don’t think he’s a bad person. But it was in hindsight, I think everyone’s got some. [00:33:57][17.1]

Dean: [00:33:58] In a time what we just didn’t realize there was a racial issue. [00:34:01][2.9]

Jameela: [00:34:01] Yes, exactly. And so he but he would make these these parodies, comedic parodies of famous people. And with a couple of them, it kind of like fucked up their careers. But I think a big part of my drive, a big part my wanting you on this, this podcast, a big part of what I talk about online constantly regarding this media cycle is that there can’t be another one. We cannot continue to sit back and watch another person take their life or have a nervous breakdown or develop an eating disorder or whatever, or lose their entire career that they did because they loved something. They were good at it. They got put on a pedestal over it and then kicked off. I I’m trying to understand the system so I can figure out how we break it. It always feels like the media, even though they’re all competing with each other, the publications, the ones that are competing with each other, are also always on the same timeline of we love her, we love her. She’s amazing. She’s amazing ooh she’s made a mistake. We hate her. We hate her. Die, die. [00:35:00][59.1]

Dean: [00:35:02] The trouble is, the trouble is Jameela. I’ll give you a very simple analogy of that. Misery sells. Misery will always sell. You know, whether it’s Kerry Kotana or it’s Jordan, it’s Jennifer Lawrence. It’s Taylor. If their life is in turmoil, they’re going to sell copies. They’re going to have clicks, they’re going to have click baits. It’s going to become more and more the beast gathers pace. That’s the thing that we’ve got to break. If that could break, then we’ll be halfway to solve it, but it’s a really big issue. [00:35:33][31.0]

Jameela: [00:35:33] And it’s all women that you’re naming. I’m not saying that men completely escaped that disgrace, but we have a very different attitude it is 95 percent women who go through that cycle who are who we enjoy we love a fallen woman. [00:35:46][13.5]

Dean: [00:35:48] Just look at Johnny Depp, you know, all that’s gone on in the court case and all that was dropped out and everything that we found out, he’s kind of got away scot free. It’s like he’s going to continue his career as normal. He’s he’s not a woman. He’s not been bashed. He’s not going to run away. He’s not going to Jennifer Lawrence disappear for like four years. He’s probably shooting another film right now. [00:36:08][20.0]

Jameela: [00:36:08] I mean, yeah, that’s Emile Hirsch, Quentin Tarantino, all the things that lot of these people have been accused of. I’m sure Casey Affleck will keep working, Shia LaBeouf for what he managed to get away with for years and years and years and will probably still. But I yeah. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Shia LaBeouf is afforded like that big sort of GQ interview where he comes back and like he did after the last time he was accused of doing something heinous, he came in and did it kind of hear to heart publicly and was like, you know, because of my childhood, I did this. And then he made a movie about how difficult his childhood childhood was. Wasn’t as fucking hard as mine not to be judgmental prick, but I’m just saying and I haven’t hit anyone. But my point being that we make more space for men’s redemption and we make absolutely no space for women’s redemption. And I just want to figure out what their sicknesses obviously it’s misogyny and patriarchy. But like, why do we love a fallen woman so much? [00:37:01][52.7]

Dean: [00:37:03] Well, I guess for the media, they know that they know that things are going to turn, that there’s going to be an up and up left and people are going to want to see somebody that the public will get behind them and want to see them get back to normal. They want to see Jordan recover from her foot operation or they’ll want to see Meghan get back on her feet and do something good for children or whether she’s going to do with her. [00:37:25][22.0]

Jameela: [00:37:25] Do you think that they actually feel that way? Because I don’t know if that bit exists. I don’t think that bit exists for women. I don’t think we are actually hoping. I think we can’t believe it. I think the women who come back or stick around to be anomaly. And I think actually what we expect, what the media expects to happen is we will disgrace her. And then because in particular, women are set up with the belief system that we must be approved of and liked by, everyone she’ll just fuck off and then there’ll be a new one. I don’t think we’re ever planning on the comeback or hoping for the comeback. And when it works, sometimes the media gets behind it. But it’s very rare that they’re ever planning on the comeback of a woman. [00:37:58][33.1]

Dean: [00:37:59] I guess that Meghan is very lucky in the respect of the US because they’re kind of sticking a lot more behind her then what the U.K. are. UK media, I think they’re done. I don’t think there’s going to be much of a comeback for Meghan as far as the media are concerned. Tthey’re the same now there’s still publications that broadsheets that will work with her on her address campaign so that the charity that she works with, Smart Works, and they’ll put on a cover and they’ll give her an opportunity to speak and they still want a part of her. But whether they’re supporting her fully or they’re just looking at sales. [00:38:32][33.0]

Jameela: [00:38:33] Yeah, but is it so is there ever a conversation about it? Of we love her now or we hate her now. You know what I mean? Like, you know, like that these editorial meetings in the morning sometimes. Yeah, well, they are their conferences. I remember my mate who worked at one of the bigger tabloid newspapers referred to it as The Vagina Monologues. That’s what the morning meeting was, was was referred to because the male editor would call every woman that they were discussing, every woman in the public eye a cunt. And so therefore that because that’s the word he would use about all these different famous women, none of whom he knew personally, that was how much he dehumanized them and degraded them in that meeting, which is full of female journalists, by the way. So he’s just saying that openly about women in front of loads of women. They then like laughingly referred to those meetings as The Vagina Monologues. There was a briefing about like, who do we hate today? Who do we who do we love today? How long are we going [00:39:31][58.3]

Dean: [00:39:31] When I was at the mirror, I was at the mirror in what, 2001 we did the thing that started called the thousand most irritating people in Britain and every day we just berate someone for who they were, you know because that was that time. I kind of hope that where we are now, things have slightly moved on because I don’t know about things being run like that. I think that there has been a lot of progression in UK media. We touched on this when we spoke before. But what Edwards Enninful has done to Vogue and putting black people on the cover, like they should have been 30 years ago, you know that was a huge thing, because when I was working for magazines, we weren’t allowed to put black people because they would not sell. Now, we’ve got an editor that has gone to the biggest fashion magazine, which was so white, it was unreal and it was so conservative in its morals, we’re now seeing someone’s that’s come in and trailblazed, that’s a huge fucking deal to see someone do that. [00:40:29][57.2]

Jameela: [00:40:29] Isn’t that unbelievable that in the last 20 years. [00:40:32][3.5]

Dean: [00:40:33] That that’s a big deal. [00:40:33][0.0]

Jameela: [00:40:33] Yeah but also isn’t unbelievable that 20 years ago you would be explicitly told that that we can’t put a black person on the cover because no one will buy it. [00:40:40][6.6]

Dean: [00:40:41] Yeah, it just didn’t happen. It was, I think, the only time I vividly remember there being a black person on the cover was Naomi Campbell chucking her phone at her assistant. And that went everywhere. That was that was a really rare occasion. And it just, you know, not even Beyonce said, you know, these people were huge stars, but it wouldn’t sell for them. And they weren’t willing to take they weren’t willing to take any risk on any sort of sale that would flop. So if there was a chance, even a 10 percent chance that ooh actually maybe Jennifer Aniston’s a bit overexposed this week. Let’s not go down that we’ll put Posh on instead. Well, Katie Price got a new boob job. You know, it was it was so ridiculous what you have to kind of make judgment calls on. But yeah, it’s shocking. [00:41:30][49.5]

Jameela: [00:41:31] It is terrifying and it’s amazing how we all fall in line and how much like I remember. [00:41:36][4.6]

Dean: [00:41:37] It’s normalized. [00:41:37][0.0]

Jameela: [00:41:37] Yeah, well, I used to fall in line. You know, I’ve said this publicly before on this podcast and in writing that I look back at how many times I used to watch like Anne Hathaway’s Oscar speech, which now I look back with a different lens of not being a fucking bitch. And I remember I had to look at it being like, oh, my God, that’s a cringe. And I would like show it to other people like that’s so cringe. I look back at it now and I’m like, that’s a really young woman who did an amazing thing, who was going through a lot emotionally and fucking prepared an Oscar speech, like I would prepare an Oscar. I’m obviously never going to even be invited to the Oscars but like if I did you’re standing in front of fucking you’re standing in front of Brad, Angelina, Jack Nicholson, like Meryl Streep. You’re not going to just wing it, are you? But we hate the idea of a woman being, like, prepared, of having planned of having maybe expected it. How dare she of maybe thought she could have won in order to have even rehearsed that speech. It is, look, we we just have to all look out for this in ourselves and just continue to make sure that we don’t help this cycle. I just that was all it was kind of like a period where I feel like media outlets sync up with loving someone, loving someone, loving someone, and then starting their downfall and just knowing that the public are such, you know, we the sheeple will just fall in line. We have to stop falling in line. Will you tell me why you first got into showbiz? I love this reason. [00:43:04][87.3]

Dean: [00:43:06] Well, I really wanted to meet Madonna, that was basically the crux of things, and may I add just going to say, you know, [00:43:13][6.2]

Jameela: [00:43:15] Did you meet Madonna? [00:43:16][1.1]

Dean: [00:43:17] I met Madonna. [00:43:18][0.2]

Jameela: [00:43:18] Oh my god. He’s holding up a picture with him and Madonna. Will you send that to me? Send me a picture of that so I can post it with this interview? [00:43:27][9.7]

Dean: [00:43:31] The real funny story is the way I actually got into it, because I worked at a post production house and we we mass produced akk of Madonna’s videos, or the company next door did. And because I was such a huge fan, they’d always go oh my god do you want to see the new Madonna video? I’d be like Yeah. So we got the video and I wanted to help her get to number one. And it was the video that she did for music with Ali G. And I took a punt and I text well, I yeah I must texted Dominic Mohan and Matthew Wright who were at the Mirror and the Sun. I said, Oh, I got the new Madonna video and is that worth something? Because I had a canary yellow Fiesta that I needed to keep on the road and to be frank, I was getting paid eight grand a year. So my morals were left slightly at the door. And within an hour, Matthew Wright had picked up the video and they did a kind of watch out for the for the video and it went straight to number one. Which looking back on it was pretty shady to do, and especially I have told Madonna’s publicist, by the way, so I’m not being that stupid nowadays. But it was about that was what it was about. And I kind of fell into this job that kind of just took me on a bit of a mad ride, really. I think there are certain celebrities that are able to deal with the machine. And there’s a number that can’t. [00:44:50][79.1]

Jameela: [00:44:51] Yeah, I think some people get into it because they crave it and then others a bit more like me. I like at least the first time around. I really had no idea what I was doing. And the second time around, I just never thought that in such a huge country I would make a dent. So I just went into, again, slightly naively. [00:45:06][15.1]

Dean: [00:45:07] That’s probably why you got away with it and you’re feeling so much happier. I hope you’re feeling happier. [00:45:10][3.8]

Jameela: [00:45:11] I’m very much happier. Yeah, it’s easier to just blend in here yeah. Last year was too much, but other than that, I’ve had a great time and here I feel as though, you know, the UK is a very specific melting pot and fish bowl of only a couple of celebrities. There’s a handful and they just get rotated and rinsed and overexposed. It’s why, you know, I think a lot of countries around the world are looking at the way that the British tabloids have handled Megan, Duchess Megan, and just been like, how is this happened? How is this become so out of control? And it’s because they’re such a tiny circulation of people that the tabloids are obsessed with that that it’s just like too much to even feel like I can breath. Go on. [00:45:50][38.9]

Dean: [00:45:50] But I mean, when I was Closer magazine, for example, we had four names that we were able to put on the cover. And it was a little bit like what happens in the US, I think, because it was always Jennifer Aniston and Angelina that would really sell, you know, because of the Brad Pitt drama. But we had Katie Price, we had Posh Spice, Victoria Beckham she would sell, and Cheryl Cole. And it was so monotonous and Kerry Katona who if you’re in the US, you might not have heard of but it was a constant [00:46:19][28.1]

Jameela: [00:46:23] She was a reality no Kerry Katona was, she was in Atomic Kitten and then kind of became a household name because we became kind of obsessed with her her lifestyle. And a lot of that was around the the sort of sadder parts of her life, like shaming her body or her going through relationship problems that would be hugely documented upon with or without her consent. And so she became a kind of. [00:46:48][25.1]

Dean: [00:46:48] I did think about this earlier, which I have a bit of trouble with because I feel like certain people like Katie Price, some people like Kerry Katona, they’re a really rare breed in this business, because in the old days, they fueled a lot of what was going on. So much money was passing hands like it was a joke. We’re talking like a hundred grand to do an interview. It was that amount of money just for one interview. But nowadays you won’t even get a couple grand like it’s just not you’ll get an interview for PR. But the value of the celebrity interview is just gone through the floor because it’s all done. It’s all out there on social and Kerry and Katie in particular. You know, that it’s literally getting to the point where you thought about having a baby to get the magazine deal. Which I think is quite troubling. [00:47:39][50.7]

Jameela: [00:47:40] It is quite troubling, although there is at least a kind of like feeling of a bit more concern, even though those people may be one mentally stable enough necessarily to handle the onslaught of what comes with that consent that you give. I mean, I’ve had paparazzi is like reach out to me on DM. I was telling you this the other day being like, hey, I take I take you know, I’m hired by the Kardashians to, like, take their photographs, you know, so that they’ll always look flattering or whatever in their like regular day to day pap shots. And I can do the same for you. And I was like, no, thanks, mate. I’m not trying to fucking court the paparazzi and there are business women that flaunting their products. I get it, like, whatever. I’m not shading them. I’m just saying that this is a whole culture where there are some who do actually plant the photographers, who plant the stories, who create kind of branding whirlpools. But a lot of. [00:48:29][49.1]

Dean: [00:48:29] I was feel that we need to remember that the Kardashians are basically the Katie Price of America. [00:48:33][3.6]

Jameela: [00:48:33] That’s why I bring them up yeah just kind of contextualizes more globally. [00:48:37][3.4]

Dean: [00:48:37] Yeah exactly, it’s it’s a it’s across the pond and it’s pretty much the same stuff. [00:48:41][4.4]

Jameela: [00:48:42] Yeah, I know what you mean. So, OK, so what were some of the more disturbing things that you saw or heard in your time? [00:48:51][9.2]

Dean: [00:48:51] I mean, I kind of want to talk about Caroline Flack just because I feel like right now it’s a conversation that everybody is online and they’re all saying be kind and all saying all of this stuff about how we got to just be nice to people. But I feel that we very easily dropped that aside. And I feel like my relationship with Caroline was interesting. And I broke the story about her and Harry Styles, which at the time was a huge deal. Yeah, he was 18. She was thirty two. I think. [00:49:21][30.1]

Jameela: [00:49:23] 34 I think yeah. [00:49:23][0.0]

Dean: [00:49:23] And the article. Was it 34? [00:49:24][0.8]

Jameela: [00:49:25] I think so. [00:49:25][0.3]

Dean: [00:49:26] And yeah. And the article that I wrote on was pretty derogatory about her and I didn’t know her that well at that point, but that article really affected her quite a lot. And whereas a lot of showbiz journalists, you know, that was quite a big story and obviously it went on for weeks because the tabloids would just repeat everything and then try to get comment and just move forward as sort of a little bit. [00:49:48][22.7]

Jameela: [00:49:49] How did you break the story? Just out of curiosity, how did you how did how do people find this shit out? [00:49:52][3.6]

Dean: [00:49:54] Babe in those days Harry was on the set of X Factor. He was literally a kid and they were putting together One Direction. She was presenting on Extra Factor. And somebody saw them go into a broom cupboard and the broom cupboard shut, they were there for a while and that was how it all started. But then it did turn out that they were seeing each other and it was you know, they were kind of hook up when they were into each other. But the thing that I was really regretful about and the thing that caused Caroline a lot pain was the fact that towards the end of it, something like as the payoff. Yeah, because this one’s not creepy because of the age difference. And that was a derogatory to woman because it was just she was on the other foot. We wouldn’t even comment on the man’s age and the thing that I’m quite glad about that is that we had a couple of rocky years obviously, you know, a couple of stand up, late rows. [00:50:48][53.6]

Jameela: [00:50:48] Had you been friends before that? Had you been sort of like friendly? [00:50:51][2.4]

Dean: [00:50:51] A little bit. But I wasn’t really I was quite young back then. And I wasn’t I didn’t have many huge celebrity friends. It wasn’t like we would go out for dinner or anything like that. I didn’t feel like I owed her anything, but, you know. Yeah, again, it was using someone’s personal life for a paper’s monetary gain. And it didn’t leave a very healthy taste in your mouth. And ultimately, that’s probably why I couldn’t do that job for any longer because you start to overstep the mark and you realize that people are actually just humans and we need to be a bit more respectful and a bit kinder to people. And towards the end. You know, we were really good mates. I was I look after a retreat in Ibiza and she’d been out there and we would touch a lot on what’s happened. I was trying to, like, really try, quite shortly before she died, get her to go to a retreat and kind of lock herself away. And it’s it’s troublesome that she didn’t go. Because there are a number of factors I mean she was addicted to social media, she’s addicted to fame. She was one of those people that she’s she wasn’t meant to be famous like this. She couldn’t handle it. It was very hard. [00:52:04][72.6]

Jameela: [00:52:05] But also, like we’re not women in particular are not given any kind of, like, manual when we enter this industry, we are not told explicitly you’re going to be treated completely differently to how your male counterparts are going to be treated. You’re going to be held to different standards. We are going to become obsessed with you. We are going to slash your tires. That’s what they did to her. The paparazzi would slash her tires so that she would come out, see the tires, look upset, and then they would take the upset photograph and attribute it to the big story that was going on. This is how she was being hounded and stalked. This is how everyone gets hounded and stalked. I talked about the stalking of me. I know about you know, I watched what happened to Amy because I lived around the corner from her, Amy Winehouse that is like, you know, that was just a cloud of screaming men, men you don’t know. And as a woman, you can’t help but your your senses, like you’re kind of like anthropological instincts are to feel like you’re about to get attacked when you are surrounded. It’s late at night. There are all these flashes going on. You can’t see straight. None of these people have like a press pass to be around you. These paparazzi in particular. No one’s. No one’s. There’s no kind of certification. You just have to be normally a bloke with a big camera and SLR camera with a big zoom on it. And then that just qualifies you as someone who’s allowed to stalk someone and sit outside their house all day long. And so you do feel like you might get like sexually assaulted or something because they’re just all around you. They’re all screaming at you and you feel like you you can’t logically override the fear that you’re about to die. But that’s what it feels like sometimes, especially if you’re in an alley on your way home or right outside your front door. One of them could just be a stalker who could just stab you right there and then it was just a wild [00:53:47][102.0]

Dean: [00:53:47] But also half of the women that have to go through all this as well, that literally the most insecure people in the industry. You know, that people that have so many demons that you just. You don’t quite know how they do what they do and why they put themselves through it, because you’re like, [00:54:03][15.5]

Jameela: [00:54:04] Well, we’re told it’s normal. That’s the thing, right? So we’re told by our publicists. We’re told by our teams, by our managers. Like that’s just how it is. Babe, don’t take it personally. Like, just rise above, turn the other cheek. Just, you know, don’t respond when someone slanders you publicly. Don’t respond don’t add to it. Don’t fuel the fire and so you just have to sit there. And it’s so hyper normalized just like it is for you, just like it is for the paparazzi, just like it is for us or just like it was for us at T4 like it’s fine. It’s a joke. They can take a joke. It’s fine to make fun of 15 year old Justin Bieber to his face, like, you know, he’ll get it. It’s a laugh. We’re all just having a laugh. It’s all just fun. It’s show business, it’s glitter, it’s glamor. And you just don’t you just don’t you can get caught in this kind of and not to excuse any of the worst offenders in this, because there’s been enough evidence documented over the years now. It’s not just Caroline Flack. It’s not just Meghan. It’s not just the Britney documentary we have seen since 2007 when Britney had that breakdown. That’s when this shit should have stopped rather than turned up again. But you’re right in that the public are why it has gone on to become so explosive. And I say this all the time on my social media, that we are funding patriarchy, we are funding misogyny, we are funding the attacks of vulnerable women, in particular, when we when we click on these articles or when we buy these magazines, they are only supplying our demand and we as a public have a massive responsibility. It’s the biggest problem. If we didn’t buy it, they would stop selling it. There was a time where this didn’t exist because they didn’t know that there was an appetite, I think. Do you agree with me that the turning point was just that we were sick of seeing airbrushed perfection and glamor and wealthiness. And we were like there was a kind of there was a sickness of seeing this kind of like perfect bubble. And the first time that bubble was kind of pricked and we showed you the the fall down of like a Drew Barrymore or, you know, you know, went through addiction issues when she was younger, et cetera. When we started to shame them or show that they would they would have weight struggles, too, or they had acne, too, or they were going through a divorce, they were getting cheated on. There was a public appetite for that because we were sick of the perfect veneer and everything just went too far after that. We all have a responsibility [00:56:28][144.3]

Dean: [00:56:29] Just to show the other side. I mean, when I was at one of the magazines and I went into conference, I was filthy hungover. I’d been at some premiere or something like I used to do all the time. And I had my shades on. And there was a picture of Keira Knightley, Tori Spelling and Nicole Richie, and they were really thin, you know, horrible pictures taken from a buzz. You know, everything was boney. And I just without thinking, I just said, oh, bones are back and just thought nothing of it. I went back to my desk. Oh yeah cool could you write 800 words on the bones are back for the cover? And I went, huh? And it said, Bones Are Back. And the three of them were lined up and it sold seven hundred fifty thousand copies, which was one of the biggest sales of that year. A, I’ve got to deal with the fact that that came from me being a complete dick, having a hangover, just looking at pictures and making a comment and B, oh, God, don’t buy this shit. If you buy it, they’re going to put more of it out there, you know, they’re going to put more torment, more hurt and more judgment on women’s bodies and, you know, being truthful, I think a lot of those magazines are struggling now, I think the tide has turned. And I think fortunately the one good thing that’s come from social media, from online and this click baiting, which keeps people permanently on their phones, is the fact that they’re not buying magazines and they are struggling. There’s now advertising and you never know. I don’t even you know there’s already dead they’re down to like six of them being left. So maybe there is a turning point that’s coming from the fact that we’re in a pandemic, as well as all of the other factors that go into this. And there’s nobody going out being papped at the moment. So there’s a lot less to put in those pages, which is great. [00:58:19][110.0]

Jameela: [00:58:20] So aside from being sent out as like a plant sometimes and aside from being sent to interview someone, you had mentioned to me that which I found fascinating and I’ve always wondered about and I’ve been warned about this by other actors, etc., you said that they would sometimes already have the headline before you would even interview the celebrity. Right. So that I’m not saying specifically you, but like, they would do that with journalists. Right. Where they had the headline already planned. They had the storyline planned. And so you were just going to kind of not you sorry isn’t a journalist would go to fulfill a narrative that had already been decided before. [00:58:59][39.2]

Dean: [00:58:59] It was me every week. [00:59:00][0.5]

Jameela: [00:59:00] Oh so it was you? [00:59:00][0.0]

Dean: [00:59:00] Yeah, of course it was yeah. You know, I was that was part of the reason I had to leave because celebrity journalism now Jameela as you know, youre a twenty four year old that’s worked for the man on Idol, one of those other titles where you come in and you just sit there and you’re just typing up what happened on social media last night. There’s not much to it. Anybody could kind of learn how to write the basics, but the reality was, was that in my last four years, I was working in a tabloid. And, you know, I’ve go out and I’d do I don’t know Danni Minogue, Sharon Osborne, Victoria Beckham. And as you were leaving. Like Oh, yeah. We want that line about Ashley Cole. We want that line about her weight. Get her to talk about her kids. Is she gonna have kids. Is she pregnant? You know, it was all of those lines that would end up with a front page splash. I don’t want to do it that way round. That’s not the way that we did it 15 years ago when I first started, we didn’t know what the hell was going to happen. We didn’t know what story was going to come up. We didn’t know if Calum Best was going to snog that Page 3 girl in the corner. You know, that was something that would happen off the cuff. But that’s the way that journalism should be. It shouldn’t be the headline being written before you even get to the interview, because then I was going in kind of with this nervous anxiety and shit like if I talk to Victoria, Posh Spice. And she just won’t talk about David or she won’t talk about kids or she just wants to talk about velour tracksuit that she’s wearing. I don’t know all of these things. So as a journalist, you were going in with the added pressure of knowing that you almost were going to stitch someone up. So, you know, get Victoria on her weight. Get Cheryl on her divorce, get this. I don’t want to fucking talk to you know, I’m going to sit down with a celebrity who’s a household name. Try not to swear, by the way. I do swear quite a lot. [01:00:53][112.6]

Jameela: [01:00:54] Yeah, you can swear on the podcast. I said cunt earlier. Sorry. [01:00:56][2.3]

Dean: [01:00:56] Ok and you’d sit down with them and. You just you just feel like a really bad person, and I’ve caught up with people like Cheryl Cole since I bumped into them and kind of not apologize, but I kind of feel like it gets to a point where you just have to be a bit more honest and just admit, which a lot of showbiz journalists who, you know, the big names, they don’t they won’t admit it because they’re just thick skinned, scaly, horrible people. [01:01:28][31.7]

Jameela: [01:01:28] Yeah, there’s a bloodthirst to some journalists, the ones who’ve stayed in this game for a long time. [01:01:34][5.5]

Dean: [01:01:35] There’s only a few that actually have any warrants still be doing it. Because to be frank, showbiz journalism is quite weird right now. I don’t think it’s as powerful as what it was. [01:01:44][8.9]

Jameela: [01:01:44] No, because everyone can control their own narratives and people speak back. Now, we’re not listening to our publicists anymore, just being like, don’t respond. We respond constantly. And sometimes that mean more often than not, that goes tits up for all of us. But at least we have a chance to say our own, you know, peace. And a big part of me having this podcast was just my chance to finally be heard on my own terms, in my own words and my own tone of voice, rather than via the lens of, you know, like the fact that I have to say, I, I video any journalist who’s recording me for print. Now, I make sure that they know that they’re being filmed so that if they stitch me up, I will release the footage of that interview of what I actually said. Like, that’s how things have to be now. [01:02:21][36.8]

Dean: [01:02:22] That’s so terrified. [01:02:22][0.1]

Jameela: [01:02:22] I am. Yeah, I’m but I’m fucking terrified. [01:02:23][1.4]

Dean: [01:02:24] We would have just thought, no, we’re not doing Jameela. No, no, we’re not going through that. I would have just walked out. Have you had people walk out? [01:02:29][5.9]

Jameela: [01:02:30] No, no. Because they want the interview because. Well currently I’ve got like currently I have value. I’m sure there’ll be a time where they’re just like no fuck off. But they also know that I’m so fucking scary that if you say no and you walk out, I’ll just tweet about it. [01:02:42][12.6]

Dean: [01:02:43] Yeah, can I ask you one other question? [01:02:46][2.1]

Jameela: [01:02:46] Yeah, go on. You can ask me anything. [01:02:49][2.7]

Dean: [01:02:49] I know I’m asking loads. [01:02:49][0.0]

Jameela: [01:02:49] No I love that. [01:02:49][0.0]

Dean: [01:02:51] But with celebrity podcast in particular, because that is what I see is the future right now. I kind of feel like a lot of people are dodging, you know, going to sit down with some old horrible witch from some. [01:03:03][11.5]

Jameela: [01:03:04] We know we both know exactly what to which you’re referring to, but we won’t name her. [01:03:07][3.4]

Dean: [01:03:09] You know, I feel like instead of doing that interview, which, let’s be honest, give them a nice front cover of The Times or the Telegraph or whatever they want to do. The thing that I find questionable when a discussion is if that A-list is going on a podcast, they’ve got a lot of power. They’re able to present themselves as they want to come across. Is that a shame that we’re not able to get a true depiction of what that person is? Or is it only going to work with some celebrities and other celebrities will be true to their words as they are, [01:03:42][32.9]

Jameela: [01:03:43] I don’t know. I feel I feel as though not only do I give more honest sides of myself on this podcast, I feel like I’m the most myself I’ve ever been on this podcast. But I also feel as though my guests are more themselves in my podcast than they would be when they’re opposite someone who traditionally we identify with being there to stitch us up or to take us out of context or to fulfill a narrative because they know that I’m not going to edit them in any way. I’m just going to leave the conversation as is. They trust me and they open up and they know that they’re being at least heard. They have the opportunity to be heard in their own words. When you’re in a print interview, there’s no opportunity. I mean, I literally almost every interview I have ever done, they have just taken words out of a full paragraph that I said and used it to construct a brand new sentence with a different meaning. And so then I look like a fucking twat on the headlines and the headlines go viral and everyone only reads the headlines and then, you know, indulgently rolls their eyes at me. And I’m well aware of what the perception of me out there on Twitter is because of these headlines that were written by fucking women, which is incredibly infuriating. But this has given me the autonomy to be able to, you know, much to my publicist’s terror, I’m sure because of how open I am on this podcast. But this just gives me the chance to take it back and actually, you know, be myself and not not fear who I am. The reason that we’re able to be so controlled on our side by publicists, by the media, we’re so terrified of the press is because we are made to feel as though who we really are isn’t good enough. What we really look like isn’t good enough. So it needs to be Photoshopped. How we speak isn’t good enough. So it needs to be crafted by journalists like we are with we are chipped away at and told that we’re just these defenseless opinionless kind of useless little pretty dolls who just need to be quote unquote protected. And so we believe that. I believed that when I was twenty two. [01:05:43][120.4]

Dean: [01:05:44] Does it change with London and L.A., is there a difference between how the publicist kind of works? [01:05:49][5.2]

Jameela: [01:05:50] I don’t know. I think I’m just old. So I think that everyone knows that I’m just sort of not going to listen. You know, I direct my publicist. [01:06:00][10.8]

Dean: [01:06:01] You’re a publicist disaster nightmare. [01:06:02][1.7]

Jameela: [01:06:03] I am. I totally am but I was very much I was very controlled by my publicists when I was younger. And they would make comments about my weight and when I would tell them I was struggling with it. Yeah. And they know what I was telling them. I was struggling with my mental health. They would roll their eyes at me as if I was being difficult. And at twenty six was the second time I tried to take my life. And it was only after that that they started to understand that I was that this is serious, that when we’re struggling, we’re not just poor little rich girl. We’re like we’re we’re collapsing under the pressure of the scrutiny of this industry. And so I felt like I worked for them, whereas now it’s very much the other way around where I explained to my publicist, this is what I’m going to do. You don’t you’re either in or you’re out. And I’m I have a die hard group of women who are just like we’re all in for all of your chaos. [01:06:51][47.7]

Dean: [01:06:52] I feel like it has started to really change. I feel like there’s a seismic shift. [01:06:56][4.5]

Jameela: [01:06:57] It has changed. Yeah, post metoo. I think that women are allowed to have more opinions and we’re not called difficult or moaning as much when we express an opinion, when we’re when we say I, I feel mistreated, we’re somewhat hurt unless we’re Meghan Markle and then we’re just like the devil, the the devil from hell, you know, which is how she gets treated every time she opens her mouth about anything or does anything. [01:07:19][21.8]

Dean: [01:07:20] Do you know what? I’m only going to touch on this quickly because I don’t want to get drawn in because I always do. But I feel like the one thing that I really, really don’t like about the whole story is I really wish the royal family would have realized that they could have modernized themselves. This didn’t need to happen. I think it’s a very simple way of thinking that they’re not going to get on the road. They’re not going to cause problems. They can do their job, just change up the way it is we’re not in the eighteen hundreds. So if things have changed, it’s such a shame that the royal family can change and I feel like that is ultimately the crux of the entire issue. And probably the biggest regret that the Queen’s going to have about it. [01:07:59][38.9]

Jameela: [01:07:59] Well, neither of us want to get into any kind of mysterious accident. So let’s not talk about that any longer. I do think things are changing, they’re not changing fast enough. My hope is that with the rise of the Britney doc, the Paris Hilton doc all this like us, there’s a lot of on social media, I don’t know if you’re seeing this or not, of us going back over old interviews that at the time we thought were funny or we blamed the woman for or thought she was or we thought she was being uncomfortable. We thought Janet Jackson just wasn’t playing along. You know, that’s what it was called, playing along. You know, when when David Letterman is like trying to push you and humiliate you about your nipple coming out at the Super Bowl, which you’ve been disproportionately blamed over, rather than Justin Timberlake, who pulled a fucking tit out in the first place. So fucking pissed at him for so many reasons. But fuck that guy but uh. But when she was just trying to be like, oh, I don’t really want to talk about that, we would we would make her seem like she’s no fun and that’s how she would be treated and no was treated as a maybe when Paris or her or anyone would be like, oh, Dave, I don’t really want to talk about this anymore. Letterman would keep pushing. You know, it’s it’s [01:09:15][75.8]

Dean: [01:09:15] Paris is Paris is a force to be reckoned with. I mean that woman I’ve known her on and off for donkey’s years. And the thing about her is she’s involved in every aspect of that business you don’t like behind the scenes. This is five hundred billion pound business that she’s built. And I think now that she’s able to she’s she’s not partying and going out like she was. Good. She’s going to be around for donkeys years. She’s still going to be going like Zsa Zsa Gabor selling perfume at the age of 80. And she’s so fearless as thick skinned. And I’ve kind of got quite a lot of respect for her. Not sure if that’s how you feel. [01:09:51][35.6]

Jameela: [01:09:51] I definitely feel that way. After seeing her documentary in particular, I yeah, I slid into her DMs to tell her just how. [01:09:59][7.3]

Dean: [01:10:00] Stop it. [01:10:00][0.1]

Jameela: [01:10:00] I fucking did. I did, I did. I’d like I didn’t I didn’t think she’d ever read it, but I just wanted to tell her how moved I was by that documentary because I had no idea what she’d gone through as a child and just how extraordinarily resilient she is. And and reading that stuff about the fact that she was just a teenager when that sex tape was leaked. One Night in Paris, it just her Brazilian [01:10:19][19.6]

Dean: [01:10:20] That age wasn’t even a conversation. We didn’t even question the fact that she was a child. [01:10:25][5.0]

Jameela: [01:10:25] No we blamed. We blamed her. [01:10:27][1.9]

Dean: [01:10:27] We literally said, oh, she’s a slag. It’s like no. [01:10:28][1.0]

Jameela: [01:10:31] I don’t even I don’t even remember when it happened. But I just remember, you know, I also remember all the memes about Britney, like Britney can get through 2007. You can get through today. And it’s like a picture of her with a shaved head, like trying to break into a paparazzi or break a paparazzi’s window with an umbrella or whatever she was holding. I know that with the paparazzi. They are they are. They have this tactic. I spoke to a few. Once I’d kind of left the limelight and they didn’t know who I was in England sorry in America. So I got chatting to some who were standing outside Kach, which is a restaurant in Los Angeles. And I was just kind of, you know, I was just I’m a civilian at this point. So they have no interest in me, no idea who I am. They think I’m curious and I want to get into being paparazzi. And I was just I just wanted to understand because I was so traumatized by the paparazzi in the UK and I was like, so how do you guys like how do you guys get ready to torment the person who’s coming out? Or like, how do you how do you feel about standing out here? Like, what does it feel like? What should I be prepared for if I do this? And they said that they purposefully dehumanize the celebrity before they even leave the house that day. So all while they’re standing outside they and their heads as a way to protect themselves from the guilt of what they’re doing. Because you’re face to face with someone, you can see that they’re squirming, they’re uncomfortable, they feel crowded or invaded or stressed or afraid. And you just keep going. You keep leaning in on that. And the only way that they’re able to do that is by telling themselves, well, they think they’re better than us. They’re this like fancy rich celebrity like crying in their castle. Like they think that we’re a piece of shit. They treat us like we’re rodents and and they don’t care about us. They don’t care about the people. So fuck these people. We should expose them. And they kind of have this kind of mantra that they tell themselves in the morning before they leave for, quote unquote, work. [01:12:23][112.3]

Dean: [01:12:25] It sounds like Scientology to me. [01:12:26][1.8]

Jameela: [01:12:27] I know, but it’s really, but it is really but it is really interesting. And this was a quite a few of them were telling me this. They were just like, well, you know, as far as we’re concerned, they don’t give a shit about us. So why should we give a shit about them? And they are treated with disdain by some people in the public eye. So I can’t imagine how that feeling gets reinforced because they are like, yeah, spat on or their cameras are broken or like they’re physically attacked sometimes by celebrities. We’ve seen the videos, but there is this kind of like deliberately dehumanizing factor. And I sometimes wonder if some of the people who are still in the game, still at the top of the game of like breaking stories about celebrity is like invading their privacy, like crafting the narrative. I wonder if they they must have to dehumanize the celebrity in order to be able to go out and do this. Did you ever see anything like this or hear anything like this, like a way of talking about them that was dehumanizing? [01:13:19][51.3]

Dean: [01:13:20] I mean, look, to be honest, I remember when I first started going to Los Angeles, I became friends a little bit, friends with Perez. [01:13:28][7.6]

Jameela: [01:13:29] Perez Hilton. [01:13:29][0.8]

Dean: [01:13:31] Perez Hilton. Yeah. And he obviously had is own moment and that’s passed. But he one night said, oh, meet me down at the Abby. And I kind of went, okay, cool. I went and met him at the Abby. Just in West Hollywood. And I said, why are we here? Kind of wasn’t really sure. And then Britney came in and she was in a private area just on this little stage. And I remember being really alarmed that night because he clearly had someone that was literally with Britney who had called him and said to come because she was going to be there. They’ve got people on the inside, and this really leads to such a huge trust issues, that is probably exactly the same now. You know, I’m friends with people Poppy Delevingne and Chloe and their little sister, Cara, has experienced the same kind of thing because they’ve become very famous. [01:14:26][54.8]

Jameela: [01:14:26] Supermodel Cara Delevingne, just for anyone who doesn’t. [01:14:28][2.1]

Dean: [01:14:30] She was always just Cara like 14 year old with a guitar behind her back. That’s kind of how that was. And. The I always find the L.A. side of things a lot more. Frantic and scary because the paparazzi are completely fearless I don’t find it as bad in London whatsoever. I find it really quite troublesome when it comes to Los Angeles. [01:14:53][23.6]

Jameela: [01:14:54] I feel differently. I feel the media, the press, the press is so much worse in the UK. [01:14:59][5.2]

Dean: [01:15:00] Is that paparazzi? [01:15:00][0.0]

Jameela: [01:15:00] Both it’s paparazzi and press and it’s the photos, like the places that I’ve the only time I’ve ever had a camera shoved between my thighs like up my crotch was in London, or one time I was in the back of an Addison Lee. That’s just a car company that you said predominately take people back and forth from events. But I was in the back of a big people carrier and they climbed they opened the doors of the people carrier that I’d run into to get away from them. They opened all like four doors. And and I had a driver in the car who was screaming, who didn’t know what was happening. And they got into the car with their cameras and were just flashing in my face. They jumped into my car outside Soho House. Would you feel comfortable sharing one of your bigger heartbreak moments that you spoke to me about on our on our kind of pre chat of of realizing the way that you were seen, even by people that you were friends with? And I’m talking about the Peaches Geldof situation. [01:16:01][61.0]

Dean: [01:16:01] Yeah. I mean, so Peaches Geldof for those is an America she was the daughter of Paula Yates, Bob Geldof of Band Aid fame. And she kind of rose up very quickly into the celebrity world and. [01:16:17][15.5]

Jameela: [01:16:17] Socialite, deejay and stuff. [01:16:19][1.6]

Dean: [01:16:19] Yeah, she was doing everything. She had some TV work. She did. She was a presenter for a bit. She was a really brilliant writer. She had two kids. She was with this kind of Rocky Bapi wonderful guy who was her husband. And I got to know really well. And she was kind of one of the first celebrities that I really became friends with. And we had loads of hilarious adventures and, you know, everywhere I took her under my wing and made sure that I was kind of protected from the likes of closer. You know, we do like Peaches Comment. She’d talk about celebrity and her her own Peaches way hyper intelligent, very opinionated. To be honest. She’s not that dissimilar from where you are. And I think that if she would be alive, she sadly died from a heroin overdose. And I think you and her would probably be kind of a meeting of minds. [01:17:10][50.9]

Jameela: [01:17:12] We went to school together. So I remember her. [01:17:14][2.2]

Dean: [01:17:14] Which makes a lot of sense. You know, it really does. And I went to a wedding, which was fantastic, I think Hello covered it. And she wanted to get it on Page 4 for it was in the back garden at Bob’s house with their own little church. It’s really cute. And, you know, she’s a very good friend. We talk about the celebrity world and she’d have an opinion on everything. And then she died. And I wasn’t allowed to her funeral because. Well, I guess, Bob, you know, it was his decision didn’t want anyone that was anything to do with the tabloids being there. And it’s kind of sad. [01:17:50][35.9]

Jameela: [01:17:50] At this point you were like four years out of it, right? You had left the tabloids? [01:17:54][3.7]

Dean: [01:17:54] I was. Yeah, I was out of the tabloids a I had a phone call from a friend of mine that’s journalist to tell me that Peaches died and it kind of hit you like a ton of bricks. And this was much more than anything that has happened before. It I feel like when you read the tabloid world, it’s a stigma that it’s going to stick with you for a long time. It’s only just started to leave me now. And, you know, there’s a lot of benefits to being former tabloid because I know the way that machine works and I know all of the twats on the papers that you need to give away to all of the people that work on the news desk and know the paparazzi to avoid. And I know what clubs to go to so that you’re not in that vicinity. You know, I know all of that machine and now I’m doing PR. I now know that sort of stuff. So I now can guide these people through. And it has been funny because people like Katie Price, for example, she has at one point wanted to work with me, but she wouldn’t work with me because I was former tabloid reporter, and I was like, what? You think your entire career is about the machine and whipping up a storm. And they wouldn’t work with me because of that, [01:19:03][69.1]

Jameela: [01:19:04] but I think it’s fascinating that you’ve moved into PR because you are now there is no one better skilled than you to protect someone against what they’re up against because you know the inner workings of it. What was what were the conversations like? Can I just ask between you and like other people who are in your circles? Was it at the time? Yeah, back in the day. Back in the day. Like, was there any kind of sense of fuck, what are we doing? Or at the time, was it just hyper normalized or was you know, was there a culture of egging each other on? Yeah, I’m talking about your peers back then at the time, like, how does it work? Is there any kind of anyone saying I mean, I imagine it was probably you knowing from having seen you at the time, was there any were there any conversations of accountability or what the fuck are we doing? Or was it just so hyper normalized? [01:19:52][48.1]

Dean: [01:19:53] Not at all. There wasn’t one. It was everyone. If you imagine having a massive shot of adrenaline and you’re in a vipers nest and you just want to fight the competition out of the way to get further up the ladder, and get the story, and get further than what the Sun would, because I was always the Mirror, you know, it was fiercely competitive and it was not for the faint hearted. And you just had to it was a bit like being on a ferris wheel. You just couldn’t get off. And that’s why I look at people like Perez or TMZ and all these people. It’s exhausting. How on earth can they do what they do each and every day and go to bed at night? I just couldn’t. That’s why I had to get out. [01:20:38][45.1]

Jameela: [01:20:39] Yeah, you left. And you seem really well for it. And I’m really glad you left such a long time ago because I think you missed some of the most dangerous shit that went down in this industry. What do you most want people to know? People out there who are reading these stories, seeing the ways that in particular, mostly women, but also some men, you know, seeing what they’re subjected to. What do you most want the takeaway to be? [01:21:06][26.9]

Dean: [01:21:07] I feel like there’s got to be a number of conversations, and I feel like firstly, with regards to the way that social media is working the machine, if the opinions and the continual baiting online from the showbiz journalists and the showbiz titles, there’s got to be some sort of group together that always seems to be some sort of licensing where the paparazzi, they can’t be on the streets running after to people, the journalists. It’s got to be more controlled or the way that they’re writing about people. It’s really hard because it’s so addictive, the way that the showbiz machine works right now, I can say all I want about this on the first that wakes up and goes on the sidebar. She goes to see what happened last time. Yeah. You know, then there’s responsibility and accountability that’s got to come from Instagram. There are certain new social media platforms that are trying to launch right now that won’t allow likes to allow comments, but that’s going to take out the funds for all of this that want to see the spike in comments or, you know, the people that will go on that they will look at the comments. I don’t understand what The Daily Mail needs to have comments. They are so vile and so damaging. Especially from clients that I’ve had, I don’t want them to look at it and they will, and there’s no real reason why they need to be there. [01:22:31][84.0]

Jameela: [01:22:33] Yeah, they do that deliberately, like the Daily Mail in particular, I think are quite insidious and obviously I can’t claim this as fact, but it appears that what they’ll do is they will hyperbolize how excellent someone is or how they look or how talented they are. They’ll go on and on and on about how stunning they look. But they will use deliberately unflattering photographs where they’ve kind of like eyes half open. They’re not ready for the picture. Their mouth is open. They’re sort of like, you know, bending over and exposing themself maybe. But they’ll they’ll write about them in such an effusive and hyper flattering way in order to deliberately then egg on rageful comments that just like she’s not that beautiful or he’s not talented or this, that and the other. Do you know what I mean? They will use contradictory photographs with contradictory language in order to egg on the mean comments and the mean comment, the chance to expel the venom of your own inner life. And I say this as a reformed troll, you know, I hold my hands up and say that I was a miserable little fuck who used to take my own misery out on the rich and the famous, you know, on people who just didn’t seem real to me, people who were just strangers that I could cast judgment over, because really I was just judging myself so much that it was nice to have a break and judge someone else who I felt like it wouldn’t harm. That is the mentality of a troll. And and they know that that fodder of riling them up and saying that someone so amazing will bring out the rage and the bitterness. And it will. And the comment section is where they’re getting their engagement from. Their engagement is how they justify their advertising dollars. So every time you comment on an article like that, you are giving them proof of concept. You are giving them proof to an advertising company, whatever fucking bullshit weight loss company or this, that and the other is advertising on their pages. That company is going to give them more money because they’re getting more engagement like comments and likes. So you’re funding your funding hate every time you participate in any way, when you share it, when you comment on it, even if you’re commenting on it in an angry way, screenshot it and then comment on it in an angry way. Take away their money. [01:24:39][126.6]

Dean: [01:24:42] 100% another thing that I think really needs to change is I think it needs to be education to actual celebs, because I felt that that’s something that’s very undernourished. I feel like there’s not enough preparation for what happens to people. You know, all of these shows, I’m not going to mention the channel, but there’s one child particular that plucking kids from obscurity and they’re chucking them into this machine. And it’s very, very apparent that they cannot cope with it. So why the hell are you not starting to give them some form of education on how to deal with it? It’s not just the press that’s part of it, but the social media side of it and how to deal with the comments and how to deal with the judgment, the furious judgment and the rejection. You know, in the old days, people that were in Hollywood, that would work at the studios would have got training and it was it was a career, it was a job, it was a school you were going in you acting classes and you had chaperons and people looking after you. They start looking after these youngsters coming into this machine. Unfortunately, it’s not like a big brother started. This is getting serious. People are starting to lose their lives. So start to inform and educate. [01:25:57][75.6]

Jameela: [01:25:58] 100 percent. And, you know, not to sound too much like my character in the Good Place Tahanie, but I am friends with a lot of the most famous people in the world, some of them and I. I see that all those comments that you think they’re not reading, they’re fucking reading them. They’re reading all of these comments and they are unable to get out of bed some days they are unable to get out of the house just like you, wherever you are, if you’re at school, if you work in an office, if you work in a bank, just like those comments would hurt you. It hurts them. They are seeing it. You’re not just doing it for clout and then other people are enjoying the witty like hot take you had about that person. Like, these are some of the most powerful people. People have been in this business for 20 years who should be, you know, quote unquote used to it by now, they are unable to move or breathe sometimes from the vitriol of online. So take ownership about what you participate in because it goes so far beyond just a joke online. It’s out there, it’s public and it’s kind of forever because once someone’s seen it, even if you delete it later, it’s out there forever. And I have to live with my own, you know, previous decisions, 10 years ago, whatever shit that I said about, you know, famous people in the public eye. And so do you when you’re out there. Anything that we did to contribute to it. We’re part of the system and we can. And what’s enlightening about that and what I think, Dean and I want you to know is that we made it. We can break it. And I feel like you and I both want to be a part of breaking it. [01:27:31][93.1]

Dean: [01:27:32] Yeah, completely, and I think it’s a conversation and it needs to be started and there’s enough people to agree on this side, it’s just working out the next side. It’s the general public. [01:27:43][11.1]

Jameela: [01:27:44] Yeah. Defund it, defund it. They will follow suit. We have all the power. We control the market. We control the publications. We decide who gets to be powerful and famous and which company gets to be powerful and successful. We can take it all away literally at the click of a button. And so what’s next for you, Dean? [01:28:02][18.0]

Dean: [01:28:04] Well, I’m doing a bit of writing and I’m working on a few things, I think that’s a conversation to be had. Well, I think it’s a TV show to be had talking about the industry and the glory days. There’s loads of these shows that are coming through. And I’ve got my PR company and I’ve got some nice clients and I just wake up every morning with a smile on my face. And that is kind of when you’re over 40 you start thinking about. [01:28:31][27.5]

Jameela: [01:28:32] Yeah, so Dean. Thank you so much for coming to talk to me today. Before you go, will you just tell me, what do you weigh? [01:28:37][5.6]

Dean: [01:28:39] I weigh to start a conversation about what news we decide to process, what choice do we make with what we put inside our brain, because I feel like that is where we’re at with regards to media, in regards to celebrity journalism and with regards to how we treat normal people. It’s time to humanize people. And that is what I weigh. [01:29:01][21.3]

Jameela: [01:29:01] Thank you for giving us an insight into how it worked and what it was like and how you felt about it and how I think a lot of people now are coming out of it and waking up and realizing that they were part of something so damaging and grow something that damaged so many more people than the ones we wrote about. I really want all of us who are listening today to stop and think about how this has impacted the way that we not only look at public figures, but we look at ourselves, you know, when it comes to your body image. What’s this done to you when you see someone fat shamed on a cover of a magazine? What does that do to the way that you then look at yourself if you were the same size as that person or bigger? Like, how has it impacted the way that you look at other people? How is it looked at how is it how has it impacted the way that you look at that you treat other people, has dehumanized, has watching adults or like other human beings, dehumanize people on social media? And I don’t just mean the media. I mean, you know, people on social media as well. Has that dehumanized you in any way as that made you feel like it’s easier to say unkind and cruel things about other people that you don’t even know or people that you do know even? Just think about these things, because we’ve all been polluted and corrupted by this culture. And what’s reassuring us that this culture is fairly modern. And so it came and it can go and we just have to be a part, all of us from now pushing it out before we lose another young person to this really toxic society. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and research by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music that you’re hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. I really appreciate it. And it amps me up to bring on better and better guests. Lastly, at I Weigh we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at 1-818-660-5543. Or email us what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com. It’s not in pounds and kilos. Please don’t send that. It’s all about you just you know, you’ve been on the Instagram anyway, and now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners. [01:31:23][141.6]

Listener: [01:31:27] I weigh having a loving and supportive family I weigh being a psychotherapist and a professional dancer. I weigh being grateful always and I weigh being kind and loving to others. [01:31:27][0.0]

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