EP. 56 — Mike Birbiglia

Jameela: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil. I hope that your well, I hope mostly that you listened to my episode last week with Jane fucking Fonda. That’s her whole name. Fucking is her middle it’s not. Don’t tell her I said that please, thank you. What a legend. And I got so many I got truly thousands of messages from all of you about what an icon she is, about how some of you were crying two minutes in because she’s so inspiring. And a lot of you told me off for having berated myself at the beginning by saying that I felt like a wilting, sweating squirrel. And that’s fair because I I preach all the time to not do ourselves down. And then I did it. I went and bloody did it. But no one’s immune, alright? When I’m faced with a giant like Jane Fonda, I become David to her Goliath. I, I’m very bitter. And, you know, I this is just this is who I am. I’m a I’m a scared guy anyway. I have a less threatening but equally important to me guest on this week. He is a comedian. He is a writer. He is a stand up. He’s an actor. And he’s just he’s a relatable king. I think he’s so funny and so relatable. And when I watch his standup shows, I don’t feel like I’m watching a comedy show, which sounds like a diss, but it isn’t. I feel like I’m watching the best TED talk with my soon to be best friend for hours and hours and I could just listen to him all day. His name is Mike Birbiglia. You may have seen him in Trainwreck. You may have seen him in Girls. He has so many different shows that he has put out that are one man shows sometimes filmed on Broadway, things like My Girlfriend’s Boyfriend or his latest one, Mike Birbiglia, The New One, which is so funny and so relatable, especially if you are a young parent or someone who doesn’t want to have children. It’s so weird to find those two audiences within one show. Also Sleepwalk With Me, which is excellent, both as a show and as a film and Don’t Think Twice, which is the way I discovered him is a movie about young actors, improv actors who are all struggling to really make it in this world. And I think it is a perfect film that everyone should watch. I watch it. I’ve seen it seven times now because I want to watch other people watch it for the first time so I can vicariously live through them, watching it for the first time because I’m obsessed and I have been for years. Please go and watch that film after this interview. Whether or not you like him, even if you think he’s shit go and watch this film, because this film is amazing. And I think that there’s something about the way that he writes that just says he really understands people and he understands complex people and he understands the bits about us that are ugly that we’re afraid of and that we’re ashamed of. And he finds ways for us to understand those things and maybe not think that they’re OK. But he helps you feel maybe less alone in your struggle, and I think that that’s really valuable and we don’t have enough of that in the world right now. We have a world of just so much so many false idols, so much mystique around the people that we have to look up to so we can project this image of perfection onto them. We don’t really have a lot of people who will just say the thing. I’m not talking about the racist, bigoted thing. Fuck those people. That’s not free speech. That’s just abuse of free speech. I’m talking about the just the parts of us that aren’t as virtuous and perfect as society would tell us we’re supposed to be. He says the thoughts that we all have inside out loud. And I think that that’s really valuable. And I just think he’s had such an interesting life. I think he has very chilled and thoughtful perspectives via a life of many stumbles and falls and failures. And I think that he he’s just he’s just a really special, funny and kind and warm and interested man, not just interesting. He’s interested. He really cares about people. And so I would love to know what you think about this episode. It’s very different to the Jane one, but very comforting, like a warm hug. And I will be seeing you in my DMs, I guess, as I always do. I love that you message me about this podcast. I really care. I really care about this podcast. I really care if you like it or not. And and I want to know who you want to hear on this podcast. So keep telling me and giving me your notes and telling me what you think. Lots of love. Here is the excellent Mike Birbiglia. Mike, welcome to I Weigh. How are you? [00:05:10][310.6]

Mike: [00:05:12] Feel like I’m I’m good. I mean, as good as anyone can be under the circumstances, right? I mean, I’m lucky. I’m healthy. I’m alive. My family is healthy. [00:05:20][8.8]

Jameela: [00:05:22] This is lovely. What has been your big like lesson of the last year? Everyone’s had a big a big lesson, sometimes five. Like your personal lesson. I mean, [00:05:32][9.8]

Mike: [00:05:32] I think well, you know, my joke that I say about the pandemic and maybe there’s a lesson in this is that nothing is as it seems in the pandemic. You know, I was talking to a friend one day and he’s he goes, I’m having a good pandemic. I’m getting a lot done. And a week later, he’s like, I’m getting divorced. I have Irish citizenship. And I’ll be at our Zoom pottery class on Tuesday, you know? And I feel like that’s that’s been my takeaway, which I think is true of the pandemic and and elsewhere, which is just nothing is as it seems like we’re living in this sort of weird Instagram future where where people portray themselves a certain way. And of course, their lives are nothing like what they’re attempting to portray [00:06:16][43.8]

Jameela: [00:06:17] 100 hundred percent. I, I realize that. I think that if I didn’t have to leave the house, I would never bathe. That’s my big take away. I would never I would never bathe. I hate being wet and cold like a cat. And I would just be like a filthy self-cleaning cat, you know, just. Just brush brushing myself down, brushing crumbs off. [00:06:46][29.3]

Mike: [00:06:47] I know what you mean. I, I feel like I would let me put it this way. I feel like [00:06:55][7.9]

Jameela: [00:06:56] Are you too aroused to speak right now. [00:06:58][1.9]

Mike: [00:07:00] No. Bathing, I do think is one of the key takeaways, which is to say that how we approach bathing. So I would say I’m closer to where you are now, which is to say that like I bathe less, certainly I basically bathe when physically it’s uncomfortable in various parts of my body where I go I should probably take a shower. That would be for the best. [00:07:26][25.7]

Jameela: [00:07:26] Yeah, because we live with other people that we have to not smell because there’s only so much that a diptych candle can do. [00:07:33][6.2]

Mike: [00:07:33] Yeah, I know. Why do you say, Mike, why do you have to say to me? [00:07:37][3.7]

Jameela: [00:07:38] Anyway. [00:07:38][0.0]

Mike: [00:07:40] Mike. [00:07:40][0.0]

Jameela: [00:07:44] Moving on moving on. I, I’m a massive fan of yours, a massive, massive, massive fan. [00:07:52][7.4]

Mike: [00:07:52] Aw thanks. [00:07:52][0.0]

Jameela: [00:07:52] And you partly know that because I slid into your DMs which is how we met, to tell you how much I love your work, I’d seen a film of yours called Don’t Think Twice, which I genuinely think everyone in the world should see at least once. I’ve now seen it seven times. It’s one of my favorite movies ever and I’m a massive film fanatic. I genuinely think it’s a perfect film and it captures not just the world of actors. And I think that’s why, you know, you and I have also had this conversation before I told you that a lot of actors told me not to watch this film [00:08:24][32.4]

Mike: [00:08:25] That’s a riot. [00:08:25][0.0]

Jameela: [00:08:27] Because I think they felt very called out by it because it perfectly surmises in particular that kind of improv scene, the journey between improv and SNL, but really just all performers, even musicians. The the perfect narcissism, hunger and brutality of this industry, I think is so personified in your movie, but in a very funny, heartwarming way. And and that film then led me into a rabbit hole of Mike Birbiglia. And now and now I’ve seen everything you’ve done and I’m a super fan. So that’s weird. [00:08:59][32.3]

Mike: [00:09:01] I appreciate it. And now that you’ve seen all the stuff. Yeah. You can see it’s sort of all of the same kind of voice and tone in a certain way. Like it’s all like attempting to do the same thing, attempting. I say, you know, longingly attempting to do what, what many people have done much better than me before me, which is like, like my favorite films are like Broadcast News and like Terms of Endearment. Like you know those James Brooks films and then like even like the Steve Coogan film, The Trip, where it’s like it’s fun and it’s funny and they’re driving. And then at the end it just punches you in the gut. And and that’s just the stuff I love. And I’m just aspiring to do that. Whether it’s in solo plays, in the theater that become comedy specials or it’s these movie Sleepwalk With Me or Don’t Think Twice. But that’s because honestly, I don’t know how you feel about this, but it’s like I just want to make the kinds of things that I like. [00:10:04][63.3]

Jameela: [00:10:05] That you want to see. Yeah, I want to see. [00:10:07][2.7]

Mike: [00:10:11] Yeah that I want to see. [00:10:11][0.1]

Jameela: [00:10:11] Be the comedy you wish to see in the world basically. [00:10:11][0.0]

Mike: [00:10:11] Yes we’ve got to make a meme of that. [00:10:14][3.0]

Jameela: [00:10:15] Yeah I, I find your stuff so relatable and I feel very, very seen by a lot of it. And you cover topics that are controversial that sometimes piss people off because they’re not the kind of you know, I think we’ll get into this later. But you’re very honest take on parenthood, you’re very honest, take on love, etc. You know, you say the things that we’re all thinking, but maybe to have the courage to say, and I really appreciate you for that your journey and stand was you were quite young when you decided to get into comedy. You were like sixteen, right? [00:10:45][30.7]

Mike: [00:10:46] Yeah. When I was 16, I saw my first live standup comedian, which was Steven Wright, who who is sort of a legend of standup comedy. He’s he was I want to say he made his debut on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson in the eighties and sort of blew up as a stand up comedy like one liner star and has been touring ever since I saw him when I was sixteen. He does these sort of surreal one liner punch lines akin to, you know, like he’ll he’ll go like I went to a drive in movie in the back of a cab movie. Movie cost me ninety five dollars, you know, and he’s got a little Boston accent and he does a ton of things like that, but then also sort of longer form surrealist stories and things. And then like once I saw that and I’m sure you’ve experienced this before, where you see someone do something that you’ve never seen before and you identify with so strongly I was like, oh, I need to do that, and so I just start writing in my notebook and these one liners that were terrible. And when I was, you know, 19 or whatever it was at college, I entered the funniest person on campus contest. And then I won and I was able to open for Dave Chappelle at the Washington, D.C. Improv. [00:12:01][75.4]

Jameela: [00:12:02] Jesus Christ. [00:12:02][0.2]

Mike: [00:12:02] I know, but this is, of course, long before Dave Chappelle was Chappelle’s Show. And this is right before Half Baked came out. And I mean, he was a nationally touring headliner. He was twenty four. I was 19. He was twenty four. That’s how big of a star Dave was when he was young. [00:12:20][17.7]

Jameela: [00:12:22] Wild. [00:12:22][0.0]

Mike: [00:12:23] Isn’t that wild? So then [00:12:23][0.8]

Jameela: [00:12:24] That is so ridiculous. [00:12:24][0.0]

Mike: [00:12:25] So then instead so I said to the comedy club, can I can I perform regularly? And they said, no, but you can you can bring food to people’s tables and work the door and et cetera. And so that’s what I did. I was a door person for my college existence. And then I moved to New York. And then. And then, yeah, I mean, I was super, super lucky. I was on Letterman when I was twenty four, which allowed me to tour the country in nightclubs as a, as a, as a standup comedian. And then, and then I pivoted into sort of those shows that you’re mentioning so generously, like Sleepwalk With Me, My Girlfriend’s Boyfriend, Thank God For Jokes, and The New One which are more personal sort of long form pieces with an arc. [00:13:10][45.4]

Jameela: [00:13:11] Yeah. I was wondering what brought you into comedy. I’m always fascinated by this with all arts, because I think often we’re trying to fill a void. But I think specifically with comedy and I was reading about you and I was like, oh, I bet he was bullied. I bet he was bullied. They’ve always been bullied. And you were right? You were bullied when you were younger. [00:13:33][21.8]

Mike: [00:13:35] Oh yeah yeah yeah. There’s actually a larger story from if people find me on this American Life. I told a story years ago about how I went to an all boys Catholic school when I was in ninth grade and I became like a mark. It wasn’t even like I was bullied by one person. It was like I was identified by the group, the swarm of boys as like, hey, this is a good person to bully. [00:14:04][28.4]

Jameela: [00:14:05] What was that about you, do you think? I’m not saying like, what were you wearing? I’m just saying that [00:14:09][4.4]

Mike: [00:14:10] What were you wearing! [00:14:10][0.0]

Jameela: [00:14:14] Just asking. Because I had a similar marker on my head where I was, I equaled a social leprosy at school. Like what they were just like, no, we’re not. No, that one is a no. And if you are friends with her, we won’t be friends with you. And I never knew I wondered if it was I sometimes tell people that it was a sign across my forehead that I’ve now covered with bangs throughout my career to protect myself. [00:14:35][20.9]

Mike: [00:14:37] Oh my gosh, that’s funny. And probably a joke and not a joke. [00:14:43][6.1]

Jameela: [00:14:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:14:44][0.8]

Mike: [00:14:47] Like all things the I think the reason I was a mark of some kind was that I was a talker and I would say irreverent things around people who I thought were friends or acquaintances, but as it turns out, did not view me in the same way. [00:15:10][23.7]

Jameela: [00:15:11] What do you mean? What kind of things? [00:15:13][1.2]

Mike: [00:15:14] Like in other words, like I like I was on the soccer team, I was on the soccer team, and we would walk to practice down this hill every day next to the football team. And I had friends who were on the football team. But then also there’s a whole bunch of people I didn’t know on the football team. And I would sort of you know, we would we would sort of make mean jokes back and forth, the football team versus the soccer team. And then and I thought it was all sort of in good fun. And then one day I’m walking down the hill and I feel what feels like a rock on the back of my head, which turns out to be a fist because this person I didn’t know name, I always say a fake name is Joey Grugeone had rock like fists. And next thing I know, I’m on I’m on the ground, face down, just being pounded on the back of my head. And then until eventually I just run away. And that was the moment where I think people like some of the kids on the football team and their friends decided this is a good person to sort of go after. [00:16:21][67.4]

Jameela: [00:16:22] So had you shit talked about Joey and someone had told [00:16:26][4.2]

Mike: [00:16:26] Sure or just or just in general is sort of like banter back and forth. I experienced this even though years later I experienced this in comedy where people would have banter, this comedian versus that comedian, and I would chime in and then next thing you know, I’m being sort of verbally pummeled by someone and I go, wow, that person really took that personally. And I feel like it’s a lesson I keep learning again and again. But I haven’t I haven’t learned in a while. I’m forty two now and I’ve, I feel like I haven’t, I haven’t run into that in about a decade or so. [00:17:01][34.5]

Jameela: [00:17:01] OK, good, good. And also for a Catholic school being bullied by the boys not to make a joke of this, but it’s not the worst thing it can happen to you. I’m very sorry you were bullied, but I’m glad that you were left alone by the priests. [00:17:13][11.4]

Mike: [00:17:13] Oh, thank God. My God I think about that all I think about it constantly. I was the movie that really shattered me was Spotlight, which is, of course about that and and it was it’s a beautiful movie, but it’s oof it’s close to home. I mean, I was an altar boy in Massachusetts, and so while I wasn’t abused, statistically, I would say it’s likely I know people who were. [00:17:38][24.9]

Jameela: [00:17:39] I heard you say on Conan’s podcast that you think you were abused because you’re they knew that you were a talker. [00:17:48][8.3]

Mike: [00:17:48] Yeah yeah yeah. It’s the same thing they beat me up for. Exactly. I was an altar boy as a kid. And the answer is no, I wasn’t. I think it’s because they knew I was a talker is that it’s always the joke I make is because it really is like I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know why I was I wasn’t abused because it was it was so prevalent. [00:18:04][16.0]

Jameela: [00:18:06] Yeah. I found the same thing with the me too movement where everyone was kind of going to these brunches and sharing these like, horrifying stories. And I just sit there with a sort of empathetic but blank expression, because no one even really flirted with me very much in my 13 years in this business. And I feel very lucky for that. But also I was like, well, how come? Not that I would want that ever. But you can’t help but wonder when literally everyone in the industry is saying that this happened to them. I was like well one time I got I guess invited to dinner by a producer afterwards. But that was the most aggressive thing that happened to me in this business. And I, I could I could put it down to the fact that I’ve got such a big mouth and also I’m just so annoying. I’m just so annoying that I think a lot of people couldn’t be bothered to have me in their hotel room. [00:18:56][50.2]

Mike: [00:18:57] I don’t find you annoying, but I’m also sort of going like, what what do you think is annoying about yourself that would even make you say that? [00:19:04][7.5]

Jameela: [00:19:05] Very chatty, very inappropriate, unsexy personality. Never shut up. Never shut up have in the past been given like a five minute silence span by boyfriends before any kind of sex because my personality is just it’s just one that is off-putting. I’m always on the the comedy part of my brain is always on. And that is not a hot part of my brain, Mike. And you don’t find me annoying because we’re ten minutes in mate, so we’ll check in, we’ll check in again at the end. [00:19:34][29.0]

Mike: [00:19:35] I’m just marveling over the term five minutes silence ban as though that’s a normal thing at all. [00:19:40][5.9]

Jameela: [00:19:41] It’s so spontaneous and hot, Mike. [00:19:43][1.7]

Mike: [00:19:44] Oh my gosh. [00:19:44][0.5]

Jameela: [00:19:46] Anyway we’re not here to talk about we’re not here to talk about my sex life. We’re here to talk about yours. Uh no. No I think that is I think it’s so hysterical, the kind of the the road often from being in some sort of pain or rejection as a child to then entering an industry where there is the possibility of a tremendous amount of pain and rejection, as we know within entertainment and especially within comedy and also there’s a huge opportunity for love and like mindedness and people who get you people like me saying, oh, he sees me, now I want to be near him. But there’s also an opportunity to kind of heal those wounds. Do you know what I mean? [00:20:25][38.8]

Mike: [00:20:26] Yeah, it’s interesting because I was I was talking to Aisling Bea who I feel like you may have countered enountered [00:20:33][7.0]

Jameela: [00:20:34] She’s been on this podcast. [00:20:34][0.5]

Mike: [00:20:35] Oh ok yeah. [00:20:35][0.4]

Jameela: [00:20:35] Yeah. She’s a she’s a good friend of mine. I love her. [00:20:38][2.1]

Mike: [00:20:38] She is wonderful. And she was she was on my podcast Working It Out as well. And she was talking about this interesting thing that I’d never fully considered, which is this idea that as performers, we have this overwhelming confidence to put ourselves out there in front of all these people and then sometimes no self-esteem whatsoever. And and the combination of those two things is sort of dangerous, because then we end up in this weird feedback loop where we’re trying to gain self-esteem from the audience response, which is, of course, I think a tricky avenue. And I feel like I’ve struggled with that through my career. [00:21:20][42.0]

Jameela: [00:21:21] You think you’ve struggled with your self-esteem? [00:21:23][1.6]

Mike: [00:21:24] Sure, certainly. [00:21:24][0.5]

Jameela: [00:21:25] A juxtaposition. In what way? In what way? [00:21:27][2.3]

Mike: [00:21:28] Yeah, I think I because I think I live and die by audience response. I think that standup comedy certainly is this field where the best comedians are the comedians who listen to the audience and are and they’re not, let me put it this way. You don’t change a joke because an audience member tells you Change that joke, but you can feel in the room, whether it’s tense or whether there’s laughter or whether it makes people emotional, and you use that feedback to sort of guide your writing in terms of what the intended effect is. It’s a very unique art form in that way, live, live performance. And so but the downside of that, of course, is that if the audience hates you or they hate what you’re doing, what you’re doing, you’re hyper tuned to that. You’re aware of it. [00:22:26][58.6]

Jameela: [00:22:27] Yeah, 100 percent. And how do you feel about your career as a whole as it stands now? Because I look to you as incredibly successful and a meaningful presence that we will always remember. But how do you feel about where you’re at in your career? And I bring this up because you and I, you know, touched on some of the themes of your movie, Don’t Think Twice, which is a couple of years old now. But I am obsessed with it. And I do think some of the themes of it are so fucking relevant, especially now, especially after the pandemic, where everyone is reckoning with their own sense of accomplishment or failure. How how do you feel about your own career? [00:23:02][35.2]

Mike: [00:23:04] It’s funny because I my goal when I make these things is to have them endure. There’s a there’s a quote I have on my wall. I have a bunch of inspirational quotes, like a lot of writers do one of them is Ezra Pound, which is only emotion endures. And that’s always my goal with the shows, is that it is that people will watch them or listen to them 10 years, 20 or 30 years from now. I don’t have a lot of confidence they will. And that is the goal of. So it’s very heartening for me to hear you say that you feel like they will. But I, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, I think it’s so hard to tell because then, like, you know, like I spent all this time on like these pieces, these shows are movies that are 90, you know, 60 minutes to 90 minutes, let’s say, on average. And they have some kind of emotional arc. But then, you know, what’s what’s very popular right now is Tik-Tok or, you know, things that are quick, you know, Snapchat or whatever that [00:24:14][70.3]

Jameela: [00:24:14] you make two hour one man shows. [00:24:16][1.3]

Mike: [00:24:16] That’s right. That’s right. And so there’s a degree to which I have this existential crisis, you know, as I age where I go like, oh, my gosh. Like the form that I invested all of my time into is becoming increasingly irrelevant. But it’s not for you. And so as a result, like that’s why I find it very heartening when I talk to you or someone else who’s really locking into that. [00:24:40][24.1]

Jameela: [00:24:41] May I have a friend who I mean, I’ve had some pretty heavy hitters on this podcast, you know, Gloria Steinem, Jane Fonda, Reese Witherspoon, like all these wonderful, wonderful people, the surgeon general of the United States of America, this is the only time I’ve ever had a friend insist I call them immediately after this interview to tell them what you were like. [00:25:00][18.8]

Mike: [00:25:00] Oh, my gosh. Really, what are you what are you going to say? What are you going to say about it so far. [00:25:04][3.7]

Jameela: [00:25:04] I’m going to say you are a fucking dick and racist. [00:25:06][2.2]

Mike: [00:25:07] No don’t do it. Don’t do it. [00:25:09][2.7]

Jameela: [00:25:10] I am. That’s what’s going to happen. I’m going to really ruin their life. [00:25:13][3.2]

Mike: [00:25:13] I’m one of my favorite comedians of all time who I was lucky enough to open for a handful of times was Mitch Hedberg. And he used to have this joke where he said, I’m not a household name, I’m an apartment name, I’m an apartment name that always stuck with me. But I feel like that that’s where I’m at I’m an apartment name. [00:25:32][19.0]

Jameela: [00:25:32] I feel like I’m in the same place. I agree. I think that’s a nice place to be. You don’t want to be overexposed. Do you feel like there is an unhealthy attitude towards success in this industry, because I know that you highlighted very different forms of it in that film. And, I know that that comes from personal observation of so many characters like that. You based a lot of these characters off of different archetypes you’d come across throughout your throughout your life. Can we talk about that? Because I think it’s such a toxic, scary part of my industry. And it’s not just my industry it exists everywhere. You know, I think in particular for girls, there’s been a big rise, you know, within feminism of, you know, you must be the girl boss. And I, I hate that term. And, you know, you’ve got it’s the kind of get the bad culture and and and you need the certain car. You need the certain bag. You need the certain status. You know, I am surrounded by friends who of any gender they win the award. And now it’s about or they spend their life doing everything they can to have the award, to win the award. And then once they get the award within twenty four hours, now it’s about how do I get another award that’s even bigger than that. Or if I’m number ten in the charts, how do I stay number ten in the charts. It’s just this fucking endless goalpost moving hell hole of ambition. [00:26:42][69.6]

Mike: [00:26:45] And of course by the way, if once you are in showbusiness, if you’re ever end up in show business, you find out that these awards the Oscars, the Golden Globes, the Emmys, like people like it’s all I don’t want to use the word rigged, but it’s like people are campaigning for them. [00:27:05][20.7]

Jameela: [00:27:06] Can we say bought? [00:27:06][0.3]

Mike: [00:27:11] Yeah I mean bought is like the. [00:27:11][0.0]

Jameela: [00:27:11] I’ll say it. [00:27:11][0.5]

Mike: [00:27:12] They are bought. I mean, they I mean [00:27:14][1.6]

Jameela: [00:27:14] If I ever win anything, I’ll be like, thank you to whoever bought me this award. [00:27:17][2.9]

Mike: [00:27:18] Oh my gosh. Yes, that’s what it is. I mean but I mean, honestly, like, the closer you get to it, the more you realize, like, wait a minute, how did they decide who wins? And then you find out that the voters are these people and then you find out that the people who won, you know, wrote a personal letter to all of the voters. And it’s got there’s a lot of gifts involved. And and events it’s it’s bought. The way that you’re putting is bought. And so then you realize you go like, oh, my gosh, none of it means anything. And to go back to Don’t Think Twice, which is all about this group of best friends in an improv group where Keegan Michael Key and Gillian Jacobs and Chris Gethard and Tami Sagher, Kate Micucci and myself play these best friends were an improv group. And we’re all attempting to get on this Saturday Night Live-esque show, and and Keegan is the one who becomes a cast member, but it’s all about ultimately how how isolating that is actually for him. And how it puts this extraordinary amount of scrutiny on his romantic relationship with Gillian Jacobs’ character and and it forces these people to come to grips with like, oh, my gosh, what are my goals in my life, what do I want to even do? And yeah, it’s just I had a reckoning that we all have [00:28:43][84.6]

Jameela: [00:28:43] I had a fight with a friend recently who’s doing really well, has her own huge special, is doing so many extraordinary things, things that she’s dreamed of doing for ten years. And now that she’s doing it at the same time, some of our peers are doing things that are differently exciting, you know, perhaps of a higher caliber. And suddenly it has completely devalued the things that she’s doing that she’s wanted to do her whole life, things that anyone would kill to do. And the fight I keep having with a lot of other people around me is if we if we do not hang on to gratitude with every single piece of energy that we have, we will just fall into the disarray of just lost souls who are always searching. I fell out with someone I worked with a couple of years ago because they treated me like shit because they were so competitive and obsessed with success, obsessed with specifically an Emmy, you know, just like that kind of award. And they were just so detached from their humanity, [00:29:42][59.1]

Mike: [00:29:43] Which is bought. [00:29:43][0.0]

Jameela: [00:29:45] Yeah, which is definitely bought. But they were so obsessed with getting that kind of that accolade and the awards and the attention and stuff that they they were not kind. And my hope for them is a vicious one. My hope is that they win the Emmy. That for me is like the worst thing that can happen to someone who’s paid all of their hopes on an Emmy. Because there wasn’t [00:30:09][24.4]

Mike: [00:30:09] Because there’s nothing there. [00:30:10][0.4]

Jameela: [00:30:10] Because I can I was twenty six when I, you know, achieved a lot of my ambitions back in the UK. You know, I was famous, I was wealthy, I was a model. I had all this shit. I was on billboards, I had awards and I was suicidal. I was completely suicidal. I had no friends. I had nothing in my life. And so I know the emptiness that’s on the other side of sometimes achieving all of your dreams when that’s where you stack your happiness. Do you feel as though you have had a journey towards getting to this place of zen of just wanting your work to endure in an emotional way? Were you ever a goalpost mover where you had a very specific game plan and a time timeline of when you might achieve things? [00:30:58][47.8]

Mike: [00:30:58] Oh my gosh. Of course. Well my [00:30:59][0.5]

Jameela: [00:31:02] What was yours? What was the fantasy? [00:31:03][1.0]

Mike: [00:31:03] My first of all, I want to recommend a book that helps me to this day, which is have you ever read Loving What Is by Byron Katie? [00:31:17][14.0]

Jameela: [00:31:18] No, I have not read almost any books. [00:31:21][2.7]

Mike: [00:31:21] So it’s like let me recommend. There’s this great book of the [00:31:25][4.1]

Jameela: [00:31:26] I have ADD, but I will slowly work over this book for the next seven years. [00:31:29][3.4]

Mike: [00:31:30] This great book called The Old Man in the Sea, and I highly recommend it. But no but Loving What Is is really interesting because she asks these like four questions about when you have a strong emotional response to something and it has to do with like is the thing your feeling is it true? Is it definitely true? I think the third question is something to the effect of what if it weren’t true? How would that make you feel? And what if the opposite was true? And when when you sort of do this as a cognitive exercise and start to write down the things, you start to go, oh, yeah, this this emotion, it’s not helping me at all. [00:32:12][41.8]

Jameela: [00:32:13] Yeah. Jamie Loftus is a young comedian who was on this podcast who, again, who referenced that book and those four questions as a life changer. [00:32:21][7.7]

Mike: [00:32:22] It’s hugely helpful. It’s hugely [00:32:24][1.1]

Jameela: [00:32:24] It’s perspective. [00:32:24][0.0]

Mike: [00:32:25] It’s hugely helpful for me. And then in terms of like you’re saying, like, did I have that goal post? It’s like I do to this day. The one that I had in my 20s had a lot to do with like I want to be on a sitcom. And it’s so looking back, it’s so insane that I thought that because I never even enjoyed sitcoms. I didn’t want to be on a sit. There’s nothing about it other than being famous and rich, I guess. But it’s like I never even wanted to be famous and rich. Like, what the fuck? I’m sorry. I don’t know if you curse. [00:33:00][35.5]

Jameela: [00:33:02] You can swear I’m English. You can I’ve said all the words. [00:33:03][1.4]

Mike: [00:33:05] It’s like what the fuck are what is I even striving for even being famous and rich. And then and then sort of along the way, I ended up with a CBS and this is what sobered me in in a loose sense of the word was when I was about 30. A lot happened in that year. I had a CBS pilot based on my life that was we filmed. It was like Bob Odenkirk played my brother and Nick Kroll played my cousin was like a really like star studded cast. And we filmed it and we thought, oh, this is going to happen and this is going to be a big hit. And then it didn’t get picked up to air. And the moment it wasn’t picked up to air, I really it was like coming out of a damn dream where it occurred to me that the show was not good at all and the show did not represent me artistically at all, and that it had been so butchered by studio notes into being this thing that had basically nothing to do with me and my story. And and I went back from Los Angeles to New York where I had lived, and I mounted my first solo play, which was Sleepwalk With Me, which was something I had been writing, you know, for five years at that point. And I put everything I could into this, you know, small, low budget like off Broadway show that ended up being something of a hit. It was ran for eight months. If we adapted it into a feature film again at the low budget indie feature film, you know, and and then that was the year also, I got married. My wife and I went to city hall and got married. And that was 2008. And that was like, I would say, like the most seminal year in my life because I sort of rejected the the goalposts, to use your your phrasing, like the goalpost dream. And [00:35:00][115.3]

Jameela: [00:35:01] You found another path. [00:35:03][1.7]

Mike: [00:35:03] Yeah, I found the path that actually was authentic to me. And if there are artists listening or anyone who’s young and sort of trying to find their way, it’s like I mean, ultimately doing what’s in your gut and what you care about is is always the best default because you know, success and money follow that. It’s not people who chase success in money are, they’re sort of doomed. I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it a million times. [00:35:36][32.8]

Jameela: [00:35:37] I’m actually the ghost of doom’s past back to haunt you and tell you that it doesn’t it doesn’t make you happy. And and I think after this last year, a lot of people, maybe even people, you know, definitely people I know suddenly want to abandon their careers that kind of like high like flying high powered careers. And they want to move to the countryside where the rent is cheaper and the life simpler and the air is cleaner and they’re not interested in status and they are deleting their social media. And they just suddenly it’s like we’ve woken up from a from a 12 year fever dream that kind of started after the 2008 recession that we’ve just been we’ve just been on this this treadmill. And now I think people are starting to want to get off. And and I hope after the last year, we become less obsessed with more and have become generally more grateful for what we do have. [00:36:32][54.7]

Mike: [00:36:33] Yeah, I mean, the next show that I’m hoping will be on or off Broadway in wait for it fall 22. So that’s what we’re dealing with at this point. But in the near future will be it looks like in Los Angeles and Berkeley and a few other places in the or, you know, workshop form. It’s called The Old Man and the Pool. And it’s all about sort of my plunging into the pool of middle age and getting to, you know, the expression they say, I’ve heard my whole life is over the hill for being middle age. And I really, truly never understood that term until I got on the hill and I looked around and I go, there’s natural causes, you know, they mean like they’re not close, but they’re coming and that the whole show is about mortality and and realizing that this is it. We got the one life and then that’s it. And it could end now or it could end later. [00:37:30][57.7]

Jameela: [00:37:31] I don’t mean to sound like a sort of cowardly young explorer, but what’s up there Mike? What’s on the hill? [00:37:37][6.1]

Mike: [00:37:38] Oh, I think, honestly,. [00:37:40][1.9]

Jameela: [00:37:41] What’s coming. [00:37:41][0.3]

Mike: [00:37:42] What’s coming for you, but not you, because you of course, you won’t experience any of this. This is something that mere mortals experience. Not not deities like yourselves, but. [00:37:54][11.4]

Jameela: [00:37:54] Shut up. [00:37:55][0.9]

Mike: [00:37:56] No, but it is that sort of funny thing where you you just go,. [00:37:59][3.6]

Jameela: [00:38:00] I hurt my hip yesterday. Is that on the hill? [00:38:01][1.5]

Mike: [00:38:03] Did you really? [00:38:03][0.3]

Jameela: [00:38:04] I did, I hurt my hip. [00:38:05][1.2]

Mike: [00:38:05] Well, this is a perfect example, like if you hurt your hip and you were my age forty two, it wouldn’t heal as quickly. [00:38:12][6.8]

Jameela: [00:38:14] Well, mine has not healed. I mean, I’m only seven years behind you, by the way, mate, like, you know, we’re of the same generation. I’m just wondering, like, I think I’m fast approaching the hill. I want to know what I need to pack before I get there. What should I pack? [00:38:26][12.6]

Mike: [00:38:27] I think that what you find. I think what you should pack. I think what you find is that you, you know, like. You know, you go to the doctor and a lot of the things that you used to think were decorations at the doctor are actually tools and that they that you and machines and you use and you get results from them. And the results are not what you would hope. [00:38:53][25.5]

Jameela: [00:38:54] Oh, my God. This is the stuff where they put stuff up your bum. Right. [00:38:58][4.2]

Mike: [00:39:00] There’s that. And then there’s the pulmonary test where you blow into a tube and there’s like a birthday cake. It’s like blowing out a birthday cake, except it’s a ball that simulates a birthday. Anyway, the point being that, like, you start to fail medical tests, you know, you just start to go like, oh, my gosh. And they start to say the reason why it’s Old Man in the Pool. I remember, my doctor said to me at one point, like, you like swimming? And I go, no, I don’t like swimming. He goes, You have a YMCA pool nearby. I go, Yeah, I have one, but I’m not going to go back. He goes, I’m not I’m not going to go. And he goes, I think you should go. I think you should find some exercise that’s low impact because you know, you’re not so healthy. And that was a real wake up call. And, you know, there have been a lot of things like that. [00:39:49][48.7]

Jameela: [00:39:50] Yeah. And you have a kid now, so you have to actually take those things seriously. [00:39:52][2.6]

Mike: [00:39:54] I have to absolutely take them seriously. I have to be the metaphor in the pool, would be I have to be a float so that she can lean on the float. I have to be the one who knows how to swim so that I can help keep her afloat. [00:40:11][17.8]

Jameela: [00:40:12] I’m so fascinated by you having children because of how much you spoke for years about not really wanting children and not necessarily thinking you were someone who was ever going to have them and making very compelling arguments for not having children. Let’s say like an hour and a half of your last show is all the reasons we shouldn’t have children and then it ends. Sorry for the spoiler, but he’s already said it now with you having a child and I’m dying to know as one of the people who anyone who listens to this this podcast knows that every single week. I’m just I’m talking again and again about how I don’t want fucking children and everybody’s pressuring me because of my age and I don’t. And so I remember being like, yeah, yeah, yeah? During your entire show, just being like exactly, exactly. And then at the end you were like, and now I’ve had a baby and it’s great. I’m like, fuck, fuck you Mike I thought you were on my side. [00:41:03][50.8]

Mike: [00:41:03] That’s so funny. You’re not alone. There are a lot of people in the child free community, particularly on Reddit. I was the one that I found one day I stumbled upon like, oh my gosh, this whole child free community, they love they love the first half of my show and they hate the second half. And I want to say to these childfree folks, if you’re listening, I’m with you. I get it. I respect you. And I just ask you to respect me, too. I mean, it has a lot to do with my marriage and my love for my wife and and knowing that, um, when we first got together, she didn’t want to have a child and I didn’t want to have a child. At a certain point she decided she did want to have a child. And that was very hard for me. And I talk about that in the show and in the book as well. And that was really, really hard because it was part of my identity was I’m never going to have a child. I really I talked about on stage and I was I was one of my first jokes I ever wrote was I’m not going to have a I’m not going to have a kid until I’m sure that nothing else good can happen in my life, that was one of my first jokes. [00:42:18][74.9]

Jameela: [00:42:20] Will you tell us some of the other reasons that you were thinking you wouldn’t have children. [00:42:24][4.2]

Mike: [00:42:24] Oh, gosh, yeah. I mean, I feel like I think there’s seven in the show. I go there’s seven reasons why I never want to have a child. And like one of them is like, my body’s a lemon. I don’t I don’t like kids. The Earth is sinking into the ocean. People aren’t great. And I’m not great either, you know, and and those are sort of off the top of my head. I haven’t performed it in so long. But like, yeah, it’s this elaborate case for why no one should ever have a child. But the truth is, you know, Jen decided she did want to have a child. And I love Jen. And I had to come to grips with the idea of am I capable of loving Jen and loving this third person who whom I do not know yet. And I had to really look within and decide, yeah, yeah, I can do that. And in my experience with it was that it was really hard. And I talk about this in the special and the book really hard for the first time [00:43:26][61.7]

Jameela: [00:43:26] Yeah man you went there, you even said at one point, which I think is one of the bravest things I’ve ever seen said on television, where you said, I understand why people why parents leave. And that just like that, went all the way through me, because I think that that’s something that we never say and you had a lot of pushback when you said it just for even having having admitted the fleeting thought, it was a fleeting thought. You don’t feel that way now, but just by having said it out loud. [00:43:52][25.5]

Mike: [00:43:52] Yeah, actually, I changed. I tweaked a thing from the early previews of the show to the to the Broadway performance, which is. I used to say I’m sort of my lowest moment, which is sort of the dark night of the soul moment of the show, I say I have this thought. I get why dads leave and then I go. And to be clear, I’m not going to leave. And then I go into all the backpedaling of it, et cetera. And and of course, I haven’t left my daughters six. And it gets better and better. And my experience of it is it’s wonderful. And it’s, I would say the most joyous parts of my day are with my daughter. So, so so that’s that’s important to point out. But there was such pushback at the incarnation of saying I get why dads leave from some people, not everybody. A lot of people are saying that gives me great catharsis to hear you say that in terms of my relationship with my dad who left or my mom who left, etc., and that and that’s important. For me, that’s why I do comedy at all, to say the thing that might lead someone to experience a catharsis akin to a catharsis I’ve experienced from watching another artist admit something about themselves that they’re not comfortable with. So for me, it was worth it. But I added this line, which was in the show, and this is very subtle. I go, you know, in this in this really dark moment, I say, I can’t believe my own thought. I get why dads leave. And by saying, I can’t believe my own thought, [00:45:36][103.7]

Jameela: [00:45:37] you are saying that you disagree with it. [00:45:39][2.1]

Mike: [00:45:39] Yeah. I’m pre disagreeing with myself and and for some people, they need that to get on board for the second part. [00:45:49][9.5]

Jameela: [00:45:50] Yeah. And yet I have so many friends with young kids who have said to me in the last year, I just sometimes want to book a one way ticket away from my husband and my child. And I mean, if you think that shame on dad saying it, you just fucking wait for the shame of a mother admitting that, admitting that she doesn’t always want to go and bake 100 fucking muffins for the fucking school fair. And she doesn’t like the friends of her kids. Genuinely one of the biggest parts of why I don’t want a child. And this is how much of a selfish prick I am, is that I, I already don’t get on with most people in that I just don’t like. For years I thought I had social anxiety and I realized, oh no, it’s not anxiety. I’m just a dick. Like I’m not enjoying I’m bored. I don’t I’m not a sociable person. I’m I like, like 12 people and they like me. And that’s good. And when one of them dies, I’ll replace them maybe. [00:46:45][55.4]

Mike: [00:46:45] That’s so funny that’s my that’s my life in a nutshell, because I well she’s an introvert. I have this joke. [00:46:52][6.8]

Jameela: [00:46:52] She’s not a dick. She’s an extrovert. [00:46:53][1.0]

Mike: [00:46:54] She’s an introvert. I have this joke in my book where I go, Oh, are you my wife is an introvert. I’m an extrovert. An extrovert is someone who gets energy from being around other people. And an introvert doesn’t like you. Or she might like you, but she’s need she’s going to need me to explain why we’re leaving the party, which is which is really our dynamic. [00:47:12][18.1]

Jameela: [00:47:14] Yeah. One hundred percent. Well, I am yeah. I’m like a trashy introvert, a bintrovert, if you will. [00:47:18][4.9]

Mike: [00:47:19] A bintrovert. [00:47:19][0.1]

Jameela: [00:47:23] Maybe I’m a bintrovert. But I am afraid of my child making friends with people and I don’t like their parents and now I have to tolerate their parents. The fuck do you do with that. How are you dealing with that Mike? I guess you’re an extrovert, so you’re fine, you’re taking you’re taking one for the team and your wife is hiding at home. [00:47:42][19.2]

Mike: [00:47:43] Yeah, I’ll pretty much talk to anybody. I sort of enjoy it. I sort of enjoy the amusement of a. [00:47:48][5.9]

Jameela: [00:47:49] I think that’s great. [00:47:50][0.5]

Mike: [00:47:50] Wild, you know, varied characters. [00:47:52][1.9]

Jameela: [00:47:54] I think it’s amazing that you are so transparent. And you did talk so much about how much harder it is once the baby actually arrives. The pregnancy is like its own thing. And then once the baby actually comes out, it’s this whole other thing that you feel like no one really warns you for. I feel like you really warned us for it and I appreciate you for it. How has it been now, especially during a pandemic? How is I know that it’s a wonderful positive experience, but is it still hard? [00:48:17][23.3]

Mike: [00:48:19] I know it’s a wonderful positive experience, but. [00:48:22][3.1]

Jameela: [00:48:23] Be real. [00:48:23][0.3]

Mike: [00:48:24] Yeah, exactly. No, I would say it’s extremely difficult. Because, you know, Jen and I are forced to sort of create the life is beautiful illusion for our five age four, turned five, turns six, all in the pandemic, by the way, the other day she turns six, two birthdays, two birthdays in the pandemic. And we have sort of created the illusion of everything’s OK, we’re going to be OK and we don’t know. Nobody nobody knows. Right. And so and so Jen and I have been sort of coauthoring that experience for her. [00:49:06][42.8]

Jameela: [00:49:07] What does she think is happening? Oh, my God. [00:49:09][2.4]

Mike: [00:49:09] No, she knows she knows about the she knows about the virus. But but I’m just saying, like it’s you we’re her friends. You know, we’re not just her parents were her friends. And that’s hard for a five year old. I mean, that’s I think that we’re going to be dealing with the butterfly effect of this moment in history for the next 20, 30 years. I don’t think. I mean, 9/11 was 20 years ago. And we talk about it today a lot. And this is two hundred 9/11s. [00:49:41][31.7]

Jameela: [00:49:45] Oh, my God that’s so true.You have struggled a little bit with your mental health throughout the course of your life, you you’ve spoken before, I think, and even to me about not having known you had maybe depression because it wasn’t the kind of depression where and I’ve spoken about this similarly, and I wasn’t able to you know, I wasn’t unable to get out of bed. I wasn’t I was I was high functioning. Just low lying, low level kind of this buzz off of inability to really access true joy. [00:50:19][33.7]

Mike: [00:50:20] Yeah, I was. That’s one of my seven reasons I just remembered, which is. I want to say it was I’m not happy or I’m I’m never going to be happy. I’m forgetting what it actually is. This is the last of it performed it was like two years ago. But the the cathartic thing for me was actually listening to Conan O’Brien, who I idolize on Fresh Air when he said he was describing what you’re saying, which is that he at a certain point in his life, what he always thought was anxiety was some version of depression, sort of high functioning depression. And the reason he never identified it as such was because he had so many friends who were depressive and couldn’t leave the house, couldn’t leave their beds and and worse. And and so he always thought, well, I don’t want to I don’t want to take anything away from their experience, which is completely fair. And I feel like that’s the way I’ve always felt about depression. But it’s yeah, I feel like yeah, I have some I have some degree of of. Yeah, it’s what I’ve always described as anxiety, and I certainly have this very severe sleep walking disorder, which is which is partly based on a chemical imbalance, REM sleep behavior disorder. It’s very rare disorder where people have a dopamine deficiency, which is. This is the chemical that’s released from your brain into your body when you fall asleep, that paralyzes your body so that you don’t act out your dreams. And so, [00:52:09][108.4]

Jameela: [00:52:09] Dopamine is also a happy chemical, right? [00:52:11][1.9]

Mike: [00:52:12] Yeah. I mean, the moment we get past [00:52:15][2.9]

Jameela: [00:52:17] this is how much of an ignorant twat I am that the only reference I have of dopamine is that I feel like when I look at Zendaya, apparently I get a shot of dopamine in my brain, you know, just just a happy chemical where I feel genuinely happier when I when I see her, not just because she’s beautiful, but because of everything about her. But I just get I get happy. And apparently when you look into your dog’s eyes, they get 150 percent more dopamine released into their brain. But you get three hundred percent now in a way that’s amazing. But also, it’s a bit rude that they feel half [00:52:51][34.0]

Mike: [00:52:52] Rude. [00:52:52][0.0]

Jameela: [00:52:53] Half as fussed about looking deeply into your eyes. [00:52:55][2.4]

Mike: [00:52:56] Wow. Yeah. I mean, [00:52:58][1.5]

Jameela: [00:52:58] I’ve moved the goalpost. [00:52:59][0.7]

Mike: [00:53:01] The but yeah. Like in relation to I mean, certainly dopamine has ramifications in terms of depression and in terms of a lot of things. But in terms of sleep, it has to do with sort of paralyzing our body when we sleep and I act out my dreams. The most extreme version of it was I jump through a second story window of a motel when I was in my 20s and it nearly killed me. I ended up with an emergency room. I glass in my legs, in my arms. I had stitches. [00:53:33][31.9]

Jameela: [00:53:35] You needed twenty three stitches right in your leg. [00:53:37][2.0]

Mike: [00:53:37] I think yeah something like that. And it was I remember the doctor said to me, you should you should be dead. And I go, no, you should. I zinged him because I’m a comedian and. But yeah. And then I and then that was that was ended up being the subject of my first show and my first movie. And because I was trying to sort of process the pain of it. But I think my sleepwalking disorder and depression and anxiety and all that stuff, it’s all, you know, it’s all part of the composition of who I am and what I’m you know what you know, these challenges. [00:54:12][35.4]

Jameela: [00:54:13] You sleepwalk mostly in January and February. [00:54:16][2.6]

Mike: [00:54:17] It’s true. [00:54:17][0.1]

Jameela: [00:54:17] This is I don’t understand. I would like to understand. What happens? Are you cold? What is it? Are you looking for heat? [00:54:25][7.1]

Mike: [00:54:25] First of all, all of sleep medicine is a mystery and people are just taking stabs in the dark. Sleep medicine is, you know, like the father of sleep medicine is this guy named William C. DeMent from Stanford. And I mean, I want to say that the first work that they were doing that he was doing with associates was in the 60s and 70s. There’s this great book that he wrote called The Promise of Sleep, and I highly recommend it. It’s it’s sort of very clinical, but it’s also very user friendly. And for people like me who do don’t who aren’t real science buffs and and it that that book helped me a lot. But like science, you know, sleep science is so new. So like, for example, in the DSM, which is like when you go to med school and you study, I think, different psychiatric disorders, there’s this book, the DSM that has all of them. I think when you get to REM behavior disorder I think of me, you know, they go like it’s like if you look for, you know, vain in a dictionary, it’s a picture of Brad Pitt or whatever the hell this joke is, [00:55:34][68.6]

Jameela: [00:55:35] Oof shots fired! [00:55:35][0.0]

Mike: [00:55:36] Yeah I know or whatever. I don’t know. I was making up a person who is attractive. But the but with with REM sleep behavior disorder, it’s me. Like, I’ll have med students, you know, D.M. Me and go like, hey, you’re in the DSM, you know, as the person. What’s amazing about that to me is that I’ve had countless specialists tell me you may not have REM sleep behavior disorder. That may be something that we don’t even fully understand yet and we’ll fully understand in 10, 20, 30 years from now. Sort of the same way that when you and I were kids, you know, Pluto was a planet. And now we’re like, oh, yeah, by the way, Pluto’s not a planet. [00:56:18][41.4]

Jameela: [00:56:19] Wait so so have you always had this? [00:56:21][1.9]

Mike: [00:56:22] No, it was started when I was in high school, and then it started being aggravated in my early 20s. And then I think it was in my mid 20s where I jumped through a window and then I was treated by a sleep physician. [00:56:32][10.7]

Jameela: [00:56:33] So what was going on around the time that you were a teenager that do you think triggered it? Were you anxious? [00:56:38][4.7]

Mike: [00:56:39] I was anxious yeah. [00:56:39][0.3]

Jameela: [00:56:39] Was there anything linked to anxiety? The reason I ask this is that I sleepwalk sometimes, not very often happens every couple of years where I go through a period of sleepwalking to the point where I have to be locked into every room I’m in. There was one time during a period in my early 20s when I was going through a lot where I would have to be because I didn’t go to the doctor about this, because I hate doctors, sorry to all the doctors listening to this. I like you for who yo are. [00:57:05][25.5]

Mike: [00:57:06] For who you are. [00:57:07][1.7]

Jameela: [00:57:08] I don’t want you to treat me. So my my boyfriend and I would tie a little belt to my wrist and tie it to it because I had to sleep on the floor because we didn’t have any money. We were living with and caring for an elderly man and so sleeping on his floor in his living room. And he had a pool table in there. And so I would the pool table is very heavy. I knew I wouldn’t be able to move it. And so I had to sleep with the belt, kind of tie fastened to my wrist, also tied around the pool table so that I wouldn’t be able to get up and get out because we lived in a really rough area. So it was the worst place possible because I used to get up and leave the house since I was a child in the middle of the night and be found at like local gas stations. [00:57:50][42.1]

Mike: [00:57:52] Oh my gosh! [00:57:52][0.2]

Jameela: [00:57:52] I would lock myself in a bathroom, I heard and my parents had to, like, call a fire brigade or something like that. I don’t remember any of these things, but one of my favorite ones was, you know, I kind of didn’t do it for a couple of years post that boyfriend belt situation, which if you’re just tuning in now, that sounds weird. [00:58:09][17.4]

Mike: [00:58:12] Even if you’re not tuning in now. I mean, it’s still odd. [00:58:15][2.9]

Jameela: [00:58:15] Yeah, I it looked because I always had bruises around my wrist. It like I was in a very saucy S and M. relationship. But then when I first became famous in the United Kingdom and, you know, it’s very easy to become famous because there are 11 people in the United Kingdom. So so it’s you stand out very quickly the way that you don’t in America. And so I became I suddenly had a lot of paparazzi attention, a lot of scrutiny over the way that I looked. I was on these red carpets. They were very terrifying to someone who has anxiety and is an introvert. And so my brother told me that in the middle of the night, every night I would get up and walk past him because he was a late sleeper and I would walk past him in heels a dress, having gone to bed in my pajamas with my make up on and my hair would be up and done. I had like badly done makeup and I would be wearing like a strapless gown. [00:59:09][53.6]

Mike: [00:59:11] It’s like a horror movie. [00:59:12][0.7]

Jameela: [00:59:12] And I’d be walking in heels and I would have a blank look on my face. I was completely awake, blank look on my face, and then I would go straight back to bed and I would wake up looking, I’m not going to lie. I’m like, kind of amazing. It was the only time in my life where I’ve been able to resonate with the Beyonce lyrics I woke up like this. I woke up like this. But yeah. Because I clearly had an anxiety about being scrutinized, about the way that I look. So I’m such a vain motherfucker in my subconscious that I was getting red carpet ready in the middle of the night while asleep and waking up in heels. [00:59:45][33.5]

Mike: [00:59:46] If you if you look up vain in the DSM, apparently it’s you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:59:51][4.8]

Jameela: [00:59:51] It’s not right. [00:59:52][0.5]

Mike: [00:59:53] That’s an amazing story. I mean, the thing that I would recommend to you and to the listeners, if they if they do have sleep issues, is reading The Promise of Sleep or reading any one of these books about sleep science, because the thing that’s really practical that I think people should completely consider is and I’ve I’ve sort of enacted these in my life over the last 15 years, in addition to seeing a doctor is a you know, a couple of hours before bed, turn off your phone, turn off the news, turn off, you know, like lights, dim lights, not eating late at night, certainly not eating like, you know, red meat or whatever. And like, really thinking of one way to think about it is that you’re landing the plane that is yourself as opposed to crashing the plane into the island of sleep, [01:00:46][52.4]

Jameela: [01:00:47] which is what I try to do. So I often sleep about an hour and a half every night. I’m such a bad insomniac. I want people to understand how severe because you keep very like flippantly saying and I jumped out of a window, I [01:01:00][13.6]

Mike: [01:01:00] actually I could actually jump through a window I [01:01:02][1.8]

Jameela: [01:01:02] Out of the second story, it was very, very bad. And so can you tell us how you sleep now? Because I think it’s amazing. [01:01:08][5.6]

Mike: [01:01:09] Yeah. And yeah, I, I’m flippant because I’m a comedian and people should know that I take it very seriously. I was nearly killed. The glass in the window that I jump through was a centimeter from my femoral artery, which would have meant if it hit it, I would have bled out on the front line and died. So yes, I take it very seriously. And I actually sleep in like a variation on like a sleeping bag up to my neck. And for a period of time I wore mittens so I couldn’t open the sleeping bag. But but any variation on like I would recommend for severe sleepwalkers, any variation on, like a sleep sack, like a lot of them are like travel travel sacks that you put yourself in for, like flying on airplanes and not getting germs, that kind of thing. [01:02:01][51.7]

Jameela: [01:02:02] What’s a one night stand like, what was no what was it before you were married with a baby? Like, what is that? Can I just ask what I mean that with no judgment. I’m just curious because I think it’s amazing. But if you have the sex and then you finish the sex, I’m obviously laying out sex in a very sexy way and then you just get it they have to help you into your sleep sack. [01:02:28][25.6]

Mike: [01:02:29] I think that if that was a part of my life, that would be the plan probably. [01:02:35][6.0]

Jameela: [01:02:37] I think I remember a bit special being like, what am I going to do? Like leave and then go and be single and say, hey, I want to come home with me and help me put on my mittens? [01:02:44][6.8]

Mike: [01:02:46] Exactly yeah yeah yeah. Come help me put my mittens on yeah. [01:02:48][1.4]

Jameela: [01:02:48] I think I mean, do what you got to do. I mean, I slept with a belt around my wrist for many years. [01:02:54][5.4]

Mike: [01:02:54] That’s a shock. That’s a shocking detail. [01:02:55][0.3]

Jameela: [01:02:56] My friend has a worst kind of sleep disorder. Not worst kind but not as bad as yours. It’s may be more humiliating. He wakes up in the middle of it. I mean, he did this especially during a relationship is really problematic, where he would get up and go and find his girlfriend’s laptop at her desk and he would open it and then piss into it because he thought the toilet, which he would sleep piss, and then because he’s a gentleman, which is my favorite thing about this, he would then close the lid afterwards. So she didn’t know until she sat down to open it up. And he went through like somewhere between three and five of her laptops in a row. And then she broke up with him because it was just too expensive, because even after she’d try and she’d try and put it in different places, not on the desk, and he would find it wherever it was, open it, piss into it, and then close it. And none of us could understand. [01:03:48][52.2]

Mike: [01:03:49] That’s like a really interesting variation on hacking into your girlfriend’s email. [01:03:53][3.7]

Jameela: [01:03:55] Yes. Imagine imagine getting dumped for that. Anyway. Wait, so does that impact your sleep or are you a good sleep? You’re just a dangerous sleeper. [01:04:02][7.4]

Mike: [01:04:04] Yeah, I mean, I have to take medication and I have to sleep in a sleeping bag, so I don’t I don’t I would not describe myself as a good sleeper. [01:04:10][6.3]

Jameela: [01:04:11] And does someone let you out of the sleeping bag in the morning? Or you get yourself out. [01:04:14][2.8]

Mike: [01:04:15] No it’s more like I’m able to do it. A lot of what you’re doing is, you know, it’s almost like birth control or something where I take the pill. Let me see how far this metaphor can take us. I take the pill as a starting point, which is my sleep medication. And then the sleeping bag is sort of the condom in addition to the pill. And so I’m sort of covering my bases, no pun intended in like three different ways. [01:04:44][28.4]

Jameela: [01:04:44] I love the idea of you sleeping in a massive condom. I think that makes us the perfect final image I need of you in this life, because they say they say never meet your heroes, but you’ve become one of mine. And this is how I will I will forever see you affectionately, lovingly and and with honor. Thank you so much for coming on and talking to me about all of these the varied, ridiculous things. I really appreciate you and I. And I’m so glad I got the chance to chat to you. I wanted to quickly signal boost something that you started last year, which I think is amazing and I would love for my audience to know about because I think it was a lovely thing that you started, which is tip your waitstaff. You started a way for people to donate and you raised almost a million dollars. Right. A. [01:05:32][47.7]

Mike: [01:05:33] At this point, it was like, I want to say it’s over six hundred thousand dollars for out of work wait staff at comedy clubs across the country. So like when when when everything was shut down last year, I was on the phone with a few comedian friends and we were like, well, I think comedians will be OK for a few months, which is what we thought at the time. But what about the waitstaff? Like they’re not, you know, what are they going to do at these comedy clubs? Because there’s hundreds of these comedy clubs. And so we created an aggregate site Tipyourwaitstaff.com, where people where comedy clubs, could put their go fund me for waitstaff on the site. So like, for example, the Comedy Cellar, which is my home club in New York, we were able to raise about one hundred thousand dollars for that waitstaff alone. And then, you know, the combination of all these different fundraises is about six hundred thousand dollars. But I actually have to say, like the this is this is sort of a bizarre turn. All these comedy clubs have opened up again. And so now it’s not. I would say it’s. It’s not as active as it was, I mean, comedy clubs are I mean, everything is opening up again and we’ll see you know knock on wood I think it’ll be OK. So one of the things one of the things about the Working It Out podcast is that we in each episode, the guest suggests a nonprofit that’s doing particularly good work right now. And then I contribute to them and link to them in the show notes. And so, you know, in this instance right now, you know, Conan O’Brien was on it recently and he gave to a food bank in Boston called Cor Unam that he supported for years. We gave a lot of money to Texas food banks recently, regional food banks around the country, different nonprofits that have dealt with domestic abuse during the pandemic, which has sadly gone way up. And and that’s one of the goals, is not just to sort of entertain, but to be aware of all the various issues that we are as a society dealing with right now. [01:07:44][131.3]

Jameela: [01:07:45] I really agree with that. And we have no idea what’s going to happen. And so I appreciate the effort and I hope that many people can support and keep our eyes and ears open for those in need, even not just in our immediate surroundings, if our immediate surroundings are OK, look look at what’s happening over in India right now. Find places to donate. They have something like three hundred and fifty thousand cases in one day. So our resources need to go need to go elsewhere now if we are doing OK, if we are opening back up. So, Mike, thank you for coming on and being so generous with your time. I have adored this conversation. And will you tell me before you go, what do you weigh? [01:08:20][35.6]

Mike: [01:08:22] I weigh my own mistakes so that other people might laugh at those and feel better about their mistakes. [01:08:33][11.0]

Jameela: [01:08:36] That’s perfect. That’s the embodiment of this entire podcast, is your mistakes, my mistakes is just don’t end up like us, you know? [01:08:45][8.7]

Mike: [01:08:46] That’s right. That’s right. [01:08:46][0.6]

Jameela: [01:08:48] Well, there’s light at the end of the tunnel. I’m so glad that you survived your sleep disorder. And I’m so glad that having a child ended up working out for you even though you let the team down. [01:08:59][10.9]

Mike: [01:09:00] I know I let the team down. I let the child-free community down. I’m sorry I apologize. I respect you all very much. [01:09:05][5.2]

Jameela: [01:09:06] I’m sorry I started so many Reddit threads about you. And and please, everyone, go and listen to Mike’s podcast. Please go and watch. Don’t Think Twice. Please go and watch My Girlfriend’s Boyfriend. Please go and watch Sleepwalk With Me, read the books. Everything this man makes is relatable and with its heart in the right place, even if he’s saying the bad things. [01:09:31][25.9]

Mike: [01:09:33] Thanks, Jameela. [01:09:33][0.3]

Jameela: [01:09:35] Loads of love. And it was a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil’s produced and research by myself, Jameela Jamil, aaron Finnegan and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music that you’re hearing now is made by my boyfriend James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. I really appreciate it and amps me up to bring on better and better guess. Lastly, at I Weigh we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at 1-818-660-5543 or email us what you way at IWeighpodcast@gmail.com. It’s not in pounds and kilos, so please don’t send that. It’s all about you just you know, you’ve been on the Instagram anyway and now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners. [01:10:27][51.6]

Listener: [01:10:31] I weigh my grief for the suffering in the world and that I choose to face it anyway, when it would admittedly be much easier to look away and find ways of distracting myself, I weigh my ability to listen to people and just hold space, whatever pain they’re in. I weigh my willingness to be vulnerable and how much that seems to help the people around me. I weigh the mad dyslexic way that my mind works. I way my approach to life’s problems, which has gotten me this far with next to no help. [01:10:31][0.0]

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