EP. 66 — Katherine Ryan – Re-Release

Jameela: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, I hope you’re well, I am good. I am I am fine. I am mid moving house. So I just want to tear each one of the hairs on my head and in my eyebrows and some of my pubic hairs. That’s right. I still have some of those I’d like to tear them out individually just to somehow be able to externalize the internal pain of moving house and trying to fix anything I’m having. I’m aging fast and thankfully I really like aging. So that’s good. And I think I’m going to look really different and really haggard by the end of this. And thank God I have made a career of being OK with that because this is fucking terrible. This is not a way to live. Anyway, I thought I would give you an uplifting episode this week. It is an old episode that that was kind of from the early days of this podcast. And so a lot of you are new listeners. Thank you for joining this podcast. And it’s such a funny and uplifting episode that I wanted to play it again, because we talk about a lot of deeply personal things. So this woman is so hilarious and so talented. Her name is Katherine Ryan. She’s a Canadian stand up who has become a huge sensation, in particular in the UK. She’s got a bunch of Netflix specials and her own show on Netflix, and she’s just a fucking genius and one of my absolute heroes. We talk about so many things in this podcast. We talk about patriarchy in such a funny way. She talks about plastic surgery and and her own approach to her esthetic and the different things that she does, the cosmetic enhancements that she has. She talks about it so openly in a way that I just wish more public figures would do. I have no I think people think that I have a problem with cosmetic enhancement or cosmetic surgery. I don’t I wish none of us felt like we needed it. Of course I do. But I also totally don’t judge anyone who does it. Look at the world we’re living in. There’s also a lot of people who are trans, who whose lives depend on the safety that comes with cosmetic surgery. So I’m not against it. What I’m against is, is people in particular, cis people who are making money off of the way that they look, because inherently becoming a celebrity, especially if you’re a woman who somehow is tied to your to the way that you look for many people, I get mad when they don’t just tell the fucking truth about it so that we can all relax and not feel like we were born looking the wrong way we want. We’re not good enough. We we we have failed in some way. If we just found out that someone else cheated a little bit, then there’s nothing wrong with them for having taken that route. And there’s nothing wrong with us for not looking like them when they’ve cheated, when they have done an extra thing that we didn’t know about. Just fucking tell us. Don’t tell us we work out. Fucking Kardashians on on their special with Andy Cohen. Just like a week and a half ago, he was like, do you think that you have upheld unattainable beauty standards? And they were just like, no, I don’t think we have you know, we got up, we work, we do the work, we work out. Now we’re just really healthy. I was like, fuck off. You know, come on, guys, it would have been so fucking amazing and revolutionary, I would have had so much respect for them if they’d just been like, yeah, I can totally see how we’ve contributed to those unattainable beauty standards. It’s because we’ve been really badly bullied for not living up to those unattainable beauty standards that existed before we even became celebrities. And we fell victim to it because the world shamed us into doing so. Chloë changed the way that she looked because everyone told her to for ten years. You know, we are victims of unattainable beauty standards and therefore we have perpetuated it and we take responsibility for that. And we want people to know all the different things we’ve done so they don’t think that we were just born looking this way and there’s something wrong with them for not going to the gym and expecting their entire face and skin color to change. I don’t know, I’ve got a lot of feelings, I went on quite a tangent there, sorry. Well, so sorry for my bad American accent just then. Happens sometimes, but Katherine is on this podcast just owning up to it, talking about what she loves about it, talking about the fact that she likes fillers, not because she is afraid of looking old just because she loves this particular share like smooth esthetic. She’s just so fucking cool. We talk about her being a mother and what an incredible mother she is. And I can say this because I have met her daughter, who is truly the most impressive fucking child, I guess, teenager now on Earth. She’s such a such an intelligent knowing and and secure young person. And that is testament to the way that she’s been raised. And we talk a lot about the way that that Katherine has chosen to raise her daughter, kind of from learning from her own mistakes through her life and things she’s been through and wanting to really. Never she look like she protects her daughter, but she doesn’t shield her from the truth, and I think that’s so, so wonderful. There’s this thing I often sentence podcast, which is that we we misunderstand when it comes to kids in particular. We think the ignorance and innocence are mutually exclusive, they’re not. You can find a peaceful and and and safe way of explaining something scary to a child that might protect them, that might actually really, truly preserve their innocence because they then aren’t exposed to something that they don’t understand or they don’t know how to avoid or they don’t know how to recover from. And so we go into that. And then most poignantly, and this was this is what we probably had the most feedback on when this podcast came around last year, is that she talks a lot about her miscarriage, which had happened not long before she came onto the podcast. And she spoke about it so honestly and openly and with no shame, as she should, because there’s nothing to be ashamed of. It’s not a failure. She she educated me a lot about miscarriages and and was just so comforting and funny and warm about it. It’s just the most I’ve sent it to so many of my friends who have suffered miscarriages in the last year since. And I have requoted her to everyone. And you will too. After you listen to this episode. And the reason I wanted to play this episode again in particular is because she’s just had another baby. The baby is here. The baby is safe. Katherine is recovered and well and fucking already back at work I think somehow and and all has gone well. And so that is cause for celebration. And in honor of that, I am playing back this episode, in order for you to to hear this difficult time that she went through and know that at the end of that tunnel is a bright, shining light of hope and and. And I love her, I don’t know if you can tell from this intro, but I really love her and she’s someone that I am friends with who I’m very grateful and honored to be friends with. And I’m very proud that she’s on this podcast. And I’m so excited for you to hear it, even if you’ve heard it before. Fucking listen to it again, because it’s gold. I’ve heard it three times, even though I’m on it. What a loser. Anyway, this is the excellent Kathryn Ryan. [00:07:17][437.2]

Jameela: [00:07:34] Katherine Ryan, you are a writer, comedian and actress, you were the first woman to host eight out of 10 cats, does Countdown and are still the only UK based female comedian to have global special on Netflix. You work more than anyone I know, and you make the world a funnier, better and more honest place. I love you. You are my biggest crush. Thank you so much for coming on my podcast. [00:07:53][18.7]

Katherine: [00:07:54] Thank you very much for having me. I’m going to dive right in and say, do you know what I hate that they do? Is they go you’re the only woman. You’re the first woman they hit you with pedestal feminism. They go you’re the first British woman. I’m like, whose fault is that? [00:08:08][14.3]

Jameela: [00:08:09] I know. I know. And I’m sorry I contributed to that heavily. [00:08:12][2.9]

Katherine: [00:08:12] It’s not your fault. It’s in the bio. It’s in the bio. You’re just reading what they told you to read. [00:08:18][6.2]

Jameela: [00:08:19] But also I think that it is important because it shows that it is possible and some people might think it’s never happened before. And also, they don’t know that you are a UK based comedian. They might hear your accent and not know. So I still think it’s relevant and I think it’s inspiring to young people who want to know that someone smashed through not just one, but like forty five glass ceilings. I’m amazed you’re not covered in blood. [00:08:42][22.4]

Katherine: [00:08:43] Well, from the waist down, this is why video calls are fine. [00:08:47][3.4]

Jameela: [00:08:47] Well, I’m really glad that you crossed all of the ponds to come over to the U.K. because for many, many years now, maybe we’re going on seven or eight years. You have been a huge love of mine. I used to love you from afar, and now I’m allowed to love you up close, not as filthy a way as I’m making out, but [00:09:05][18.1]

Katherine: [00:09:06] we’re still pretty far [00:09:07][0.7]

Jameela: [00:09:07] genuinely. You are one of my favorite just people, and so I’m happy that you exist. I have created this podcast about mental health and shame and feminism and all things that make us who we are because, you know, especially I think now it’s fair to say that this pandemic and everything being slowed down as much as it is, has created space for some people’s issues to surface. And we also don’t have some people never have access to therapy because so many countries in the West are absolutely fucked. But some people in particular right now don’t have access to any kind of support system. And so that’s what this podcast is, just a way to let people know, hey, you’re not alone. And the reason why I wanted so badly to speak to you is because you are the queen of you’re not alone. You have made an entire brand of just telling people everything, the most personal stories and helping them recognize that these little kinks in life and these, I don’t know, hurdle’s don’t define you and they don’t stop you from going on to have what you want and be who you are. And so I think that’s why I have so many things I want to talk to you about because you’ve been so ridiculously open about. I think I’m probably more open because of you. So is your fault. [00:10:25][78.0]

Katherine: [00:10:27] It’s fun, isn’t it, because you alienate a lot of the family that you didn’t want around anyway. [00:10:32][5.1]

Jameela: [00:10:33] Yeah. Have you always been this open? [00:10:36][2.6]

Katherine: [00:10:37] Yeah, I mean, yes, I just didn’t get rewarded for it for a number of years, and I think when you talk about female comedians or we could just call them comedians and they’re like male comedians, I’ve heard someone start calling the boys male comedians. [00:10:53][15.4]

Jameela: [00:10:53] comedians and perverts. Yeah. [00:10:55][2.5]

Katherine: [00:10:56] Yeah. Is that I think young women for the most part and I am generalizing, we don’t get rewarded for being alpha when we’re young or for being forthright or for being funny. And I definitely am from a small place, a town in Canada where it wasn’t valued. I thought that why would you want to do anything if you weren’t having a laugh with someone? But then I have Irish family so that’s probably where that comes from. But I was definitely ostracized. I was definitely weird. And then I had a period of time, you know, I would say things that offended people. I would be provocative and I didn’t mean to. I had all these tools that I wanted to throw away. I just wanted to be a cheerleader. I wanted to be quiet and simple and pretty and soft. And I no matter how hard I tried, it was never those things. And then all those tools that I spent so long trying to throw away are the tools I’m lucky stuck with me because they’re the whole reason that I have a rapport with people now in a career. And I have friends who are very like minded now and who are layered and interesting. Had I stayed in that small town and been like, OK, and done the pageant. Yeah. When it turned out very happy, [00:12:11][75.0]

Jameela: [00:12:12] what was that you said in one of your stand ups this line that stuck with me forever with you were like when you were talking about how women have to stay small. We must we mustn’t take up any space in case a man wants to build a golf course there. [00:12:23][11.5]

Katherine: [00:12:24] Yeah, well, this is what it is with dieting and with being quiet and with being good is men take up all this space, generally speaking, and we’re meant to get smaller and smaller. And that’s not your space because a man might want to golf in it. You don’t know if you just have to stay out of the way, be young and be small be quiet. [00:12:45][21.1]

Jameela: [00:12:46] Anyone who hasn’t seen Katherine’s stand up or just anything she’s ever done in front of a camera. And also, please, please listen to her podcast. But she’s a true joy. So I want to talk to you a bit about shame, because that is that’s our biggest fetish on this on this podcast. We love it we love talking about it. We love figuring out people’s journeys through and past it. What would you say in your life have been some of the biggest things you’ve had to negotiate with in terms of shame? [00:13:18][32.4]

Katherine: [00:13:20] I think a really big turning point for me and something that was a big struggle in my life. I’ve read a lot of indigenous psychology and indigenous literature, and they believe in ancestral trauma. They believe in suffering. When suffering comes into your life, you have to invite it closer and ask it what it has to teach you rather than pushing it away. And I had a few years of suffering. I love them. They’re my favorite years. I always go back to them. I learn so much then and now I feel like I have this clarity. I can always see exactly what people are saying, what men especially are trying to swing past people. I can always see it because when I became a single mother, I had a lot of shame about that, even though outwardly, I guess intellectually, I knew that being a single mother was aspirational. I always regarded these women as being brave and strong. [00:14:16][55.9]

Jameela: [00:14:17] So noble. [00:14:17][0.3]

Katherine: [00:14:18] Yeah, but when it happened to me, I felt that maybe ancestral shame of, well, you should have worked harder to keep your family together and you couldn’t manage that man. And you you are the failure. And still, when people find out that I’m not with my daughter’s father, the assumption is always that he left me. Oh, he left you. And it’s like he left because I asked him to. Look, I ended that relationship and I didn’t end in the most graceful way. I started seeing someone else right away. In some cultures, it’s called overlapping. And I felt a great deal of shame about that. And I because I was so shameful, this is my shame to me is very dangerous, [00:15:07][48.5]

Jameela: [00:15:07] shameful about being a single mother or shameful about all the overlapping with all of us. Sword crossing, as they call it, [00:15:13][5.6]

Katherine: [00:15:13] the sword crossing, all of it. I just felt like a failure and a bad person and a bad mother. And everyone in my family expected a lot from me growing up. And the fact that I had no money and I was in a foreign country with a small baby and my life was really then quite hectic. There was a lot of chaos, I was just felt so much shame and now I didn’t realize at the time being having that much shame, you have to get rid of it as quick as you can because it puts you in a really vulnerable place. Because I felt like nothing. Then I attracted choices and people who were nothing. And then I was in a few relationships that I would maybe describe as like what are the words toxic, bordering on dangerous. And I don’t blame those people. I mean, I definitely sought them out. I sought out people who did not deserve us, and then I would double down in those relationships and be like, well, you can’t be a failure twice, Katherine. You really must hold on to this one. You can make him. And I just was in a tailspin for a few years, all because of shame. [00:16:28][74.2]

Jameela: [00:16:29] Yeah. And I have this with so many of my friends who are single mothers that they end up dating someone just to fill that man shaped hole in the family portrait, you know what I mean? They just they just need someone so that it doesn’t look like I’m alone and therefore make choices that are just not always appropriate for them and these partners of theirs, regardless of their gender, able to get away with just total murder because not literally, but because they’ve been that. Well, yeah. But because they know that someone they can sense your and I don’t mean this word in a shaming way, but they can sense your desperation to not be alone because we have made loneliness such a stigma and single motherdom such a stigma. [00:17:12][42.6]

Katherine: [00:17:13] Yeah, and then the more that people who love you acknowledge bad behavior, they say, well, that shouldn’t be happening and that shouldn’t happen. And why are you tolerating that? I would dig my heels into that relationship even harder and say, well, none of it will matter if I can just prove that I was able to make this a success. And every time something bad would happen, it would strengthen my resolve to be like, well, you don’t want to introduce your daughter to a whole new man. I always think better the devil. You know, you don’t want to find a whole new one and start training him up from fresh. And yeah, I tolerated a lot of behavior that was absolutely beneath my usual standard. And it took so many lessons. Now I know things like you never argue with an idiot, otherwise people won’t know which one of you is the idiot. I also I also learned people don’t have to understand you. You just walk away. You don’t have to give an explanation. I would always say, oh, well, he he doesn’t understand that what he’s doing is bad behavior. He doesn’t understand how much he’s hurt me. I’ll just explain how I’m not the psycho and I’ll just explain. It’s like, no, don’t explain anything to them. Who cares? Let him go live his life thinking you’re a psycho. That’s fine. Just walk away. And I haven’t I was really proud of getting out of a few tricky things, and that’s why I did my latest Netflix special was really celebrating the the comfort and the peacefulness in being alone, taking away the fear of that prospect, because I could have used a voice like that when I was a single mother. It was great being single. It’s great you have nothing to be shameful about. [00:19:03][110.4]

Jameela: [00:19:04] I was so much more space for you and your life and your existence. You’re not having to sort of cramp yourself, not just physically, but also cramp who you are. I also think that when I come from I mean, I don’t know why we call it a broken home like that again, that’s shaming narrative like that just make it just sounds like failure and despair. Whereas actually I’ve always been an advocate for if it’s not working, definitely break up so that your child doesn’t grow up seeing a really toxic, unhappy relationship, but thinking that that’s what they should have, because that in itself can also model someone’s way of going forward in love. I think seeing that people just just eating shit and being with someone who doesn’t make them incredibly happy, I don’t think that’s good for a kid. I would I would rather that they were in two separate peaceful households that belong to happier people. But my parents broke up when I was very young. And I think that it impacts people differently from for me, it definitely gave me a feeling for a long time of I have to now make a little unit because I didn’t have a family. So I am obsessed with the idea of making a little unit and having my own little chosen family. And so that would make me I just jumped from relationship to relationship to relationship throughout my twenties because I didn’t know how to be alone, because I was so scared of ending up like my parents. So I think that’s interesting. And also sometimes as adults, we try to we try to shape our lives in a way that will make us feel like we fix what happened in the past. So it’s like if I can make this relationship work now or if I can make this person who’s unhappy, happy, then that’ll fix the parent that I couldn’t make happy or the marriage that I couldn’t help bring together. So I think it is definitely really interesting. I love that you’ve been so open throughout your dating life as well with your various horror stories. They have been incredibly funny and joyous. Listen, do you have a top? Do you have a best hit? I mean, of your favorite one. [00:21:02][117.8]

Katherine: [00:21:03] I have to say, I’ve only ever dated Korean businessmen, all my ex-boyfriends have been Korean businessmen. So if anyone recognizes themself in any story, it wasn’t you unless you were a Korean business man. I mean, there’s the asshole story. I was he was not an asshole, but I was on a date. And this man look at a beautiful restaurant, leaned in and said to me, you know, I have to tell you, you have one of the top four assholes that I’ve ever seen. And I was like. Because he didn’t say it was number one, he said one of the top four, so I know it’s number four, it’s like that’s an honorable mention that was painful. That’s when I stopped dating actors and musicians and went straight to Korean businessmen. [00:21:55][51.3]

Jameela: [00:21:55] I love the I love the top four asshole story so much. I’ve been told by and I don’t even know if this is an insult or not, but this isn’t about my asshole don’t worry but [00:22:03][7.8]

Katherine: [00:22:06] Good to know no one’s insulting your asshole. [00:22:08][1.1]

Jameela: [00:22:08] No one actually has an opinion on mine, to be honest. But. [00:22:11][3.0]

Katherine: [00:22:11] Yes, they do. This is what you don’t realize. This is why I had to tell the world that information is that I never knew they were looking at our assholes. But they are and they’re remembering them and they’re making a little Yelp review they’re looking for. I’m not looking for their asshole. You don’t think I haven’t seen your asshole because you don’t try to look at someone’s asshole. Trust me when I tell you they’re seeking out your asshole. [00:22:34][23.0]

Jameela: [00:22:34] This is you know why I brought you here for to freak out all the listeners about they’re assholes. There’s nothing they can do. They can’t even they can’t wax. They can’t bleach. No one’s allowed to leave their house. What did Russell Brand call his? His dark, leathery bagel? Truly the most upsetting term of all time anyway. Yeah. So I’ve been told by three separate lovers in a loving way that it’s like making love to a memory foam mattress. Just. [00:23:05][31.3]

Katherine: [00:23:06] What does that mean? [00:23:06][0.0]

Jameela: [00:23:06] Because I have no muscles and it almost feels like I have no bones, I’m just sort of I’m a I’m a long, slim squish. I’m, you know, the the car sales inflatable people. But I am I feel like a pillow. I’m just a do you have a flump? [00:23:22][16.4]

Katherine: [00:23:23] Yeah! [00:23:23][0.0]

Jameela: [00:23:24] It’s a long marshmallow and I’m a flump. [00:23:25][1.9]

Katherine: [00:23:26] That’s nice. [00:23:27][0.1]

Jameela: [00:23:27] It’s just a one long marshmallow. So yeah. [00:23:29][2.0]

Katherine: [00:23:29] I like that. You’re like a boob. [00:23:31][2.0]

Jameela: [00:23:32] Yeah. I’m just one very long boob and so I don’t know why I brought that up. [00:23:38][5.9]

Katherine: [00:23:39] Yeah but what you need to know is that that lover has a frame of reference and has fucked a memory foam mattress in the past. He is like this is exactly like that time. [00:23:53][14.0]

Jameela: [00:23:55] That means three of my five lovers have all bung bung? being the past tense of bang, they’ve all bung memory foam mattress, or one long boob. OK, I’m pivoting back to you and away from my bodily makeup. This year, you started your own podcast from your house. You don’t really have guests over them, sort of conversations with your family members that you asked for their permission after you’ve spoken to them to air them. You kicked off this new podcast talking about something incredibly traumatic that happened to you this year, which was a miscarriage. And while it feels very recent, I mean, it is literally very recent. I I would love to talk to you about it because I feel like the way that you opened up has helped so many people, not just people I know, but I’ve just seen the Internet, just the wave of support for you, but also thanking you because nobody talks about miscarriages publicly, because it’s another thing about shame. It’s as if we failed. [00:25:03][67.6]

Katherine: [00:25:04] It is I think that people attach it to this deep failure, and my advice would be, don’t help people, because when you do the they write you emails about it every day. So I’ve opened up this Pandora’s box of grief. And every day now that I open my email, there are 50 stories about women who’ve had pregnancy losses and it’s quite emotionally taxing. You’re like, well, I just know every time I open my computer, it’s like grief, grief, grief. However [00:25:40][35.8]

Jameela: [00:25:42] Then a dick and then grief and then grief and the grief and then and another dick and yeah. [00:25:44][2.2]

Katherine: [00:25:45] Yeah and then there’s the little palate cleanser of someone’s balls. Men and women. I don’t want to generalize, but yeah. So it was traumatic at the time and now I feel a lot better. So if that’s any consolation, it can be something that if you deal with it properly, it is a distant memory hopefully. And I think the mind is very interesting in how it heals you. It’s sort of the same as you forget childbirth that you almost forget. You know, I’m sure you forgot your car accident. People say they get in accidents and they forget. So it’s a lot the same. I think what was most traumatic about the miscarriage is I always knew about miscarriage. I found myself. I always thought I was very well versed in women’s issues, but I didn’t realize that once you saw a heartbeat on the scan at seven weeks that you could go back at ten weeks and without any pain or any bleeding, you still have all your symptoms. You’re still nauseous. Every first trimester symptom is still there. There’s just no heartbeat. And you are a tomb for this deceased embryo the last few weeks, it was just the weirdest feeling. It really blindsided me. I always thought you would bleed, so I didn’t really know about a silent miscarriage. So then I went to work and then I dealt with that. And it’s kind of weird being a clown because all of a sudden now I know that. I mean, I’m using triggering language, but it is really just being pregnant with a dead baby. I was like, well, now I’m pregnant with a dead baby. I have to go to work, tell jokes to all these people, meet them, chat to them after be smiling. And that’s what all the Botox is for, just being like, it’s fine. And then they give you medicine and you think it’s going to come out. But it’s still lasted for a month. So I always had to go to work. I had it for a month before. Eventually they were like, OK, you can have surgery and just doesn’t want to come out. And that’s where the real trauma for my experience came from is that it was holding on. And I thought, oh, I just felt really like a bad mother really trying to evict this deceased fetus. [00:28:04][139.1]

Jameela: [00:28:05] I didn’t know that that they wait. I didn’t know. They make you wait both. I’ve had two miscarriages before and they were just as they were as they were as dramatic as the movies tell you they are. And it was like very, very clear what happened immediately. I’m OK. And to the point where I actually have a different kind of guilt, I feel guilty for being OK about my miscarriages. And so that’s a different way, which sometimes people accidentally make you feel bad or intentionally where you are expected to be very traumatized for a very long time. And in the few films I’ve seen about it, they’re very traumatized for a very long time. And so I felt like a dead cold bitch for just being able to move on and be like, OK, well, just it wasn’t the right time and my body wasn’t ready. And my body let me know that this isn’t the right time for me. And now we’re moving on. It impacted me for a short while. And and however your brain chooses, that’s clearly just what my brain did. My brain compacted it into, like, you know, put it in some sort of pragmatic compartment and I was able to get on. It doesn’t make me a bad person. It doesn’t make you a bad person if you’re out there and you feel the same way. But anyway, sorry, back to you. [00:29:12][66.9]

Katherine: [00:29:13] Not at all. No. Whatever your reaction is, whatever your brain decides to do to process it is perfect. And your pragmatic reaction really is the right one. That’s what the midwives say. They go well, this the midwife said to me that it was a sign of strength because women and anyone who has children, they invest so much time in gestation and then raising a small child. It’s a huge investment. So it’s a sign of strength. If your body knows, no, this one’s too poorly, you know, it won’t be compatible with life. Your body preserves your time. You know, it goes, no, you don’t have time for this and moves you forward. And as shrewd as that may sound, that’s nature. And the midwives are very pragmatic about it, and I think your reaction is great and to be honest, that’s how I feel about it now. But at the time, I was shameful. I sort of felt like I let my husband down. I have a husband now and my current husband, I let him down. And and I also felt shameful just for having wanted that pregnancy so much. I just felt like there was egg on my face. You know, that expression where I was like, oh, well, I knew that. I knew I just felt silly for not realizing [00:30:41][88.2]

Jameela: [00:30:43] that’s so interesting. Why why do you think that is? [00:30:45][2.7]

Katherine: [00:30:46] Yeah, well, it’s definitely the wrong feeling because it’s ridiculous. But you just go. I can only be very transparent about exactly how I felt. And I felt really stupid for not realizing and for walking around all excited. And I felt really foolish and I felt really shameful. And then it was my way of dealing with things is to talk about them. And I felt also this collective grief, because you know, that it doesn’t just happen to you. I understand what the statistics are even more so now, but I know it happens. And all I could think was this happens to so many people and they are just walking around like they are serving you your coffee and they are nurses in the hospital as well. And they go to their jobs and they’re living in the world around you. And what they all want to do is grab you and say, I’m pregnant with a dead baby. And so I felt that collective grief and I just felt so sad for everyone. [00:31:49][63.1]

Jameela: [00:31:49] Yeah, I can’t imagine having to walk around for a month waiting for that. That was that is something that I didn’t know anyone had to do. I know that that can happen sometimes with an abortion where you have to hang on to a baby that you would like to have aborted. That happened to me as well. When and you know, you’re pregnant, you know, you don’t want to be pregnant anymore when they make you stay pregnant for long enough that they can see the embryo. And so you have to go through all the symptoms and it can be sometimes like a month. I think it was like a month and a half where I had to stay pregnant. And that was very traumatizing and felt a little bit like, oh, did they set this time frame so that you have time to quote unquote bond and then you won’t want to do it. I didn’t know. [00:32:31][41.7]

Katherine: [00:32:31] Maybe yeah. [00:32:31][0.0]

Jameela: [00:32:31] I’m sure there’s a practical medical thing. But, you know, this is definitely something that can be quite stressful. So did you feel better after having the operation? Was that like a part of your ability to heal? [00:32:42][11.1]

Katherine: [00:32:45] Immediately better. I had a car from the hospital to work. I went to work. [00:32:47][2.7]

Jameela: [00:32:48] Oh, my God Katherine. [00:32:48][0.6]

Katherine: [00:32:49] Yeah. And I continued to bleed for 40 days after that. It was like Lent. But I felt just like immediately relieved, like I could start the next chapter because you just feel so arrested when it’s happening. And my behavior was erratic. I mean, I was hosting the NME Awards and I was just acting like I just acted like a rock star for about a month. I think [00:33:18][29.2]

Jameela: [00:33:20] I think that’s completely fair. [00:33:20][0.2]

Katherine: [00:33:20] Yeah, maybe. [00:33:24][3.7]

Jameela: [00:33:24] Well I think that’s your way. If that’s your way of, like, acting out and distracting yourself and like really engaging with your autonomy, because I think you feel a little bit powerless when something happens to your body, when your body does anything that you did not tell your body to do. I think it can really make you feel a little bit powerless. And so if you just wanting to take all of the control back. That makes perfect sense. And I thought you were great at the NME Awards, from all the things I’ve heard and seen. And also I think that, you know, it’s also really important for you to understand, not you specifically. I know that you understand this, but anyone out there, you know, especially someone who might be very young and might not have access to this information, that your hormones are just having their own bloody Mardi Gras. It’s just Coachella up in there it’s chaos. [00:34:11][47.1]

Katherine: [00:34:11] It was Coochella. [00:34:12][0.4]

Jameela: [00:34:12] Yeah, it was Coochella indeed. And so I’m really glad that you’ve been able to work through that. Did you use therapy? Did you did you take steps to or you just came to your own kind of conclusion of closure? [00:34:26][13.4]

Katherine: [00:34:27] I have this wonderful therapist called Pam Gawler-Wright and she works with a company called BeeLeaf and she’s always like, you’ve got to stop mentioning me because I’m full. And then people ring Pam. But what Pam should do is just write a bunch of books and we will buy those, because she changed my life in so many ways back when I was really vulnerable. But I spoke to her about this and I miss her. I was almost a little bit like, oh, great, I have something to ring Pam about. And she was really helpful. She it’s just sometimes people. You spoke earlier about access to therapy. Some people are just resistant to therapy and may say, no, I can do everything it really can be if you have that access so useful to hear what you already know, repeated by a third party, just having him repeat the pragmatic sides of it to me and really listen to my grief. It’s really great because you do need space just to be sad. And then I also spoke to a psychic and yeah. Do you know Lou Sanders, the comedian? [00:35:36][69.4]

Jameela: [00:35:37] Yes, I do. [00:35:38][0.4]

Katherine: [00:35:39] Yeah. She recommends to everyone her psychic, Jill, in the Pyrenees. And Jill does voice calls. And she she is the energy cleaner more than a psychic. But she told me that gratitude is always really important, even when something terrible is happening to you. So you need to be in a place of gratitude. Write that little soul, a letter thanking it for its service, thanking it for whatever role it’s had. Jill said that a soul like that comes with a purpose and that purpose might only be six weeks or 10 weeks or whatever it is. And then you go out into the forest and you burn the letter because the spirit world understand fire and make of that what you will. But I felt that it was very healing. [00:36:25][46.3]

Jameela: [00:36:26] Great. I support anything that does that. And also because of that little personal being, you have gone on to help thousands of people feel better and less alone in their experience. And so there will always be that. [00:36:41][14.6]

Katherine: [00:36:41] We named him Frolf like Frisbee Golf Frolf because you can’t say for Frolf and not smile. [00:36:50][8.6]

Jameela: [00:36:51] OK, that’s so good. I love that name. And we’re going to prov a Frolf. And we’re back, so, Katherine, you already have a child. She’s now how old is she now? 13? She’s 11? [00:37:16][25.1]

Katherine: [00:37:18] Well, yeah, in a way she just turned 11. [00:37:20][2.8]

Jameela: [00:37:21] Right. OK, so emotionally 13. Although, you know what? So I think I first met your daughter when she was about seven or eight and she’s always been 40, just like legit 40. I’ve always felt not only like I was talking to someone my own age, but someone much older, smarter and wiser than me. And I am not kissing your ass. I am freaked out by your child to the point where I tell everyone I know about her. I don’t even talk about you. And I don’t even mention you. I just talk now about her because I’m so impressed she [00:37:52][31.2]

Katherine: [00:37:52] she is like a little old lady. She went out into your balcony and then left her sunglasses there and just bounced, you know, very glamorous. [00:38:00][7.4]

Jameela: [00:38:00] Oh no. But she’s just like gives really thoughtful advice, very, very forthcoming with her opinion, very bright. And she just has this sense of empowerment that I did not recognize in myself, even as an adult, never mind as a very small single digit child. Where does that come from? How did you do this? How can we all have a child like your child, please? [00:38:21][21.1]

Katherine: [00:38:22] Well, I think I’m a very good mother to very small children. And then I’m not sure if I’m a good mother to the age that she is now. So she might have regressed since I last saw you. Only because only because I’m competing now with all these other girls and all these games and all these apps. She remains kind and wise, though. I’m quite manipulative. and she always I mean, I think that communication was really important because when she was small, I didn’t have any anyone else here in the UK and I really wanted to talk to her and I couldn’t wait until she could speak back to me. And she was quite a fussy, like newborn, a really fussy infant. So I was just bored. So I potty trained her really young because I could tell by the look on her face, this doesn’t work, by the way, if you are employed. But I was at home, I could tell by the look on her face when she needed to go to the potty. So I just hold her over the potty. And then I figured out that babies, even before they can speak back, they can sign back. So I would do British sign language with her and then she could sign for things. By the time she was seven, eight months, she could sign things that were meaningful to her. So loads of different animals, mouse, dog, cat, horse, hot, cold, help inside, outside, cookie, cheese, apple, those kind of things. [00:39:54][91.9]

Jameela: [00:39:54] Basically just my my vocabulary now. Those are my needs go on. [00:39:59][4.7]

Katherine: [00:40:00] Exactly. So I had a little friend and then I always thought, I think I was just really I didn’t have Western information to raise her. I didn’t go to any NCT meetings. I didn’t do the normal Western things of swaddling her and putting her away from me. I always carried her, I always co slept. The potty training thing is called elimination communication. They do that all over most of the world. And in L.A., you’ll see it in L.A. [00:40:32][31.9]

Jameela: [00:40:33] What the fuck is elimination communication? [00:40:35][1.1]

Katherine: [00:40:36] It’s like other countries don’t train their kids to go in a nappy. And what we have to understand, what a lot of us do in the Western world is we say, I’m not going to potty train is too soon to train them, but by putting a nappy on, you are training them. You’re training them to go in their nappy. They think, well, this is what we do. And then when they’re eighteen months, they have this sense of self, you change it and that’s when kids are like, no, we’re not changing it. I go behind the couch in my nappy. That’s my routine. Um it just means communicating elimination. Yeah people do it through sign language and people do it just by reading different cues on their baby’s faces. And it really worked for me. And then because she was never vulnerable, she didn’t have some stranger changing her nappy and she didn’t have that period of frustration where she couldn’t tell me what she wanted. She could always tell me what she wanted, that I think she just grew up really calm and communication was highly valued. And even when I had these, like, crazy boyfriends, they never lived with us. So we grew up in a really quiet, symbiotic Democratic household. Which [00:41:51][74.5]

Jameela: [00:41:51] Very democratic. Yeah. But she doesn’t she’d never come across as spoiled. What she comes across as just someone who really understands the lay of the land. And I think that whenever I think about becoming a mother, I, I genuinely think about you and I think about the way that you’ve raised your child and I think about the fact that we are raising children in a time where innocence as an innocence, I don’t think we should tie ignorance to innocence and say that if someone doesn’t know about the evils of the world or how things work, then therefore they’re innocent. I think someone can be knowing an innocent at the same time. And I think that your daughter embodies that. I just think that we can’t protect them from the Internet. We can’t protect them from TikTok. We can’t protect them for body image issues and this, that and the other and boys and everything. So you have to or whoever. So therefore, the only way we can really protect them and truly preserve their innocence, I think, is to inform them. Is to empower them with knowledge because then their actual innocence is less likely to be taken away by someone or something that is bad, that is going to corrupt them. And so I think that it’s really important the school doesn’t tell girls fuck all and our parents don’t really tell us. They don’t warn us what’s coming. And so, you know, have you been like how forthright have you been with your daughter? About every I mean, what’s coming in the world? [00:43:10][79.2]

Katherine: [00:43:11] I mean, she I don’t censor myself. And one thing that was really interesting that [00:43:17][5.9]

Jameela: [00:43:18] Did people used to judge you for that, by the way. [00:43:19][1.0]

Katherine: [00:43:20] Yeah. They still do. All the time. [00:43:21][1.2]

Jameela: [00:43:21] Really. [00:43:21][0.0]

Katherine: [00:43:22] All the time. Yeah. Even stories that I tell in my stand up, they’ll be like, well, you shouldn’t be telling her about that and she shouldn’t know this. And also even because I do stand up, I’ve done interviews where men have said, well, you have a very dirty mouth. How are you going to explain to your daughter one day about what you do? And I’m like, well, I think my daughter doesn’t have this Madonna and the whore complex where she views me as only a mother and a baby machine and an angel. My daughter knows that I’m a person. She knows everything. [00:43:54][32.4]

Jameela: [00:43:56] They never say that to men. I’ve never seen that said to a man. [00:43:59][3.1]

Katherine: [00:43:59] I know like how does Mickey Flanagan answer that question? Yeah, tell me what Kevin Hart’s answer was. And that’s my answer. The only thing I don’t tell her, which is weird. I don’t admit to having had sex before. Because I can’t lose her respect. [00:44:22][23.4]

Jameela: [00:44:25] Right. OK, so she’s wise in all the ways just a little bit of a slut shamer maybe [00:44:28][2.9]

Katherine: [00:44:29] she is a slut shamer. She knows people have sex and she just, she. [00:44:35][5.6]

Jameela: [00:44:35] Doesn’t like it. [00:44:36][0.6]

Katherine: [00:44:37] I think I just know what she can handle and what she think she knows all about George Floyd. She knows everything that’s going on in politics. She knows a lot of the mistakes I’ve made. She knows she knows everything, but she thinks I’m a virgin. [00:44:50][13.1]

Jameela: [00:44:57] Oh God. That’s genuinely that’s bloody hilarious that’s so funny to me. Well, OK, well, tell your children the truth. Whatever age they are, just start it young because I think that it will protect them. And Katherine really does have a really great daughter who I’m terrified of. [00:45:12][15.5]

Katherine: [00:45:15] And tell them that you had IVF. [00:45:16][0.6]

Jameela: [00:45:16] Yeah. Tell them about the stork. Yeah, she’s she’s smart in every way other than the fact that she thinks a stork delivered her and that is her only blindspot. You have recently got married to your drumroll childhood sweetheart. [00:45:32][15.9]

Katherine: [00:45:33] Yeah he’s so cute. [00:45:34][0.9]

Jameela: [00:45:35] And she actually gets along with him. And I would love for you to just briefly explain to people that you didn’t meet him in high school and then the two of you stayed together all of this time. Like the American dream. [00:45:45][10.7]

Katherine: [00:45:46] Yeah. [00:45:46][0.0]

Jameela: [00:45:48] You met each other. You broke up, and then you went on to date a series of learning moments, teachable moments as we’re going to refer to those men as or those people as and. And now you have met you. How did you reconnect with him? [00:46:03][15.1]

Katherine: [00:46:03] Well, it’s so strange because I was at the first point in my life I had dated a really nice man, but he wasn’t right for me. So I had really graduated in my journey of men. And I thought, OK, I did it. I know that I’m not the problem. I dated someone who is very smart, very nice, very normal. We’re still friends now, but I don’t want that around. And then I resolved just to live as a fabulous single older woman. I was going to really cherish getting older. I was going to get one of those crazy shopping carts and many, many more dogs just start dressing more extravagantly and have a really clean house. Everything Rose Gold loved that path for myself. And I was truly in a great place where for the first time I was satisfied. I wasn’t looking and I thought great. And I had purchased sperm online because I thought I might still want to grow my family. So I had all these you know, plans. [00:47:09][65.4]

Jameela: [00:47:09] You were fully set up. [00:47:10][0.7]

Katherine: [00:47:10] Yeah, I was fully set up. And then I went home to Canada to film something for the BBC. And I was aware of him because we dated in high school and I really loved him in high school. I loved him a lot. And when we split for a variety of reasons, namely we were 16. And I don’t think you should stay with the same person necessarily when you’re 16. I never would have the life or the journey or the experiences that I have now had I stayed with him and then I saw him in a bar and I was like and he looked better than ever. And I’m so pleased to confirm that I’m far more attracted to thirty seven year old men than I am to sixteen year old men. [00:47:50][39.6]

Jameela: [00:47:50] Fantastic. [00:47:50][0.0]

Katherine: [00:47:51] Yeah, it was a really great feeling just to see him and go, oh my gosh, you’re so much better looking now as a gray adult. And then I thought it would be funny to go home with him and have sex with him at my mom’s house because when am I going to get that opportunity again? I thought would be hilarious. And he was into it. He thought it would be hilarious as well. And then we could both have a fun anecdote for our friends, and that would be it. Yeah, but there’s a siren. You can hear it, [00:48:23][32.0]

Jameela: [00:48:24] uh, Katherine under arrest because her daughter just found out she’s not a virgin. [00:48:26][2.6]

Katherine: [00:48:32] I’ll just wait til that goes. And then we just got chatting loads. He was so sweet and I couldn’t believe that was only one night stand I’d ever had in my life. I was bring it back to shame. I was like, oh my gosh, what have I done? But then he was such a gentleman. He didn’t play any of these games. He texted me the next day and then he came straight to England the following week. And then we just started dating. And it was the easiest, most straightforward thing in the world. There was just no reason not to. And then we got married, I think six months after that. When did we get married? So that was January when we got married in September. [00:49:06][34.1]

Jameela: [00:49:08] So you’re still going nine, nine months? [00:49:10][1.9]

Katherine: [00:49:10] Yeah, yeah, so it was just very and that’s what I wish I had known when I was younger, is that they say that the right relationship is easy. I didn’t realize it was that easy. There are no signs of resistance in the right relationship. It’s not. Oh, well, I’d have to quit my job and I have to do this and. Oh, well, I’m you know, there’s a flood in my basement and I got for the right relationship there are no excuses and you just make it work. We were fortunate that he didn’t have children or, you know, a current wife or anything at home. And it was easy. I’m in a position where we could be together, but it was just so easy. It’s still so easy. We don’t fall out. He’s just like, perfect for me and [00:49:54][44.3]

Jameela: [00:49:55] Yeah the reason we’re never told about that is because it wouldn’t make very good songs or films. Two people having a really nice time in sweatsuits, you know what I mean? Like, no one wants to see him almost see that film. We want to see people running in the rain. We want drama. Sometimes we want some blood. And so I think that in the name of art, we’ve destroyed everyone’s perception of what love is like. There was that film. What was it? He’s not He’s Just Not That Into You, which gave me such a mind blowing moment at the beginning of the film where from the minute in particular, little girls first receive some sort of bullying behavior from a little boy. We are always conditioned to think that that means we’re always explicitly told that means he likes you and that for some reason that silly film just was like a fucking explosion in my brain. I was like, that’s what I have always been to. I’ve been programed from as soon as I could understand that if someone treats you like shit, it means that they like you. It means that they care. And how that programing went into me. And so I think it’s wonderful that you found just peace and and and joy and love. I think that’s great. [00:50:56][61.2]

Katherine: [00:50:56] That’s exactly what it is. It’s peace. And I feel that I’ve abandoned the single mothers that I was speaking to in my Netflix special Glitter Room. But everything I said still stands. If you choose to have someone in your life because it’s that easy, then you definitely should. I was just objecting to the hundreds of years when we needed men legally to survive, when we weren’t allowed to have a bank account or carry a passport or have a mortgage without them. And even those little nursery rhymes and things we would learn in kindergarten about them kicking your books out of your hand. I mean, all of that has been ingrained in us for so long that we don’t even realize how baked into us it is. It’s so crazy. [00:51:42][45.4]

Jameela: [00:51:43] It’s so wild. Well, yeah, I agree. Motherhood is hard enough. Never mind with like having to look after two people in one of whom is an adult baby. And so I agree. I think only do it if you if it just if it enhances your life. Right. Yeah. I think generally, whether you’re a mother or not, I think that’s the only time you get into a relationship. I definitely would not be in a relationship now, I before I met James had said I don’t want to date anymore people ever again. That’s it. I’m 28. I’m hanging up my hanging up my heels, I’m out of the game. And it was only because it was a relationship that genuinely added to my life in so many ways that I was like, OK, you may stay. [00:52:21][38.4]

Katherine: [00:52:24] Well that’s what we should all do. It’s like they tell you not to go food shopping when you’re hungry. Well you shouldn’t go man shopping when you’re thirsty. [00:52:31][7.1]

Jameela: [00:52:32] I agree. That’s so good. OK, I want to talk to you while I still have you about surgery. [00:52:40][8.6]

Katherine: [00:52:42] OK. [00:52:42][0.0]

Jameela: [00:52:43] There’s all this. There’s all this because you’re so incredibly open about just cosmetic procedures and your own your own decisions to make esthetic differences to yourself. And what I and I think a lot of people think that I’m anti all surgery and anti all cosmetic procedures, whereas I’m definitely not. I had my tits reduced. And it’s one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. And and I love them. So I am I’m pro whatever the fuck gets you through the day and makes you feel better. The only thing I guarantee is people a) feeling like they’re not worth anything without those things. And I don’t judge those people. I judge the system that made them feel that way. I think it should be a decision you make to, you know, just enhance it’s like lipstick, you know, it’s something that should make you feel better, not something that you think that you are a worthless human being without. But also when it comes to famous people in particular, I think it’s really important that they are transparent about it. If you own up to it and you’re not setting this unrealistic beauty standard for people, that then makes them feel bad about themselves. I don’t care. Chrissy Teigen talks about it all the time. Just talked about all the procedures she’s had done and I love your transparency with yours. And I feel like some people would probably think that I wouldn’t be pro that. Whereas I think or that is isn’t some people have the misguided notion then you are if you if you were to do any of those things then you are not feminist, and I think that you very much so prove that you are all of the things, you’re just a human. [00:54:09][86.9]

Katherine: [00:54:11] I am definitely flawed and layered and definitely a product of my environment and society, and I absolutely know that there have been jobs where. I, I get them partly because of how I present myself and I definitely have had in my contract before, that I always have to have my hair down because I look less severe. That’s never been in any of Joe Rogan’s contracts. I can only guess and I just think I had a breast augmentation when I was very young, like twenty one or twenty two, which I probably regret now, though, I’m really happy that I researched it and I went to this genius doctor who did such a good job. Like I still have the same ones now and it could not have gone better. But the reason I am so transparent about that is because not all augmentations look like the Playboy magazines. There are some women walking around to a very, you know, quote unquote, normal, average bodies who’ve had things done to them. And I think it’s good to see the whole spectrum of that. And then my face, I’ve not had surgery like knives on my face, but I definitely do like peels and acids and facials. And I get Botox and fillers and I’ve been to the right places for that kind of stuff and I’ve been to the wrong places for that kind of stuff. And I hate it when, as you say, a celebrity changes something or looks a certain way. And I don’t understand why. I don’t know why. So I don’t look like I’m trying to give an example. You know, the family I want to say, but I don’t want your name tied to them again. And then it’d be like they’re slamming them. [00:56:14][122.2]

Jameela: [00:56:15] Well, you know, I have to slam, hit and crush. Yeah. I can never just speak reasonably about women. Go on. [00:56:20][5.7]

Katherine: [00:56:21] Well, I don’t look like a model. And I think it’s really important too for people to understand that having these procedures is never going to be a magic wand. You’re not going to have these procedures and look like Gisele Bundchen the next day. It’s just going to tweak. I know she’s also it just tweaks either in a good way or a bad way what you already have and my lips will always be wonky because I had silicone put in them once for like an amateur’s basement for cash in Canada when I was twenty three or twenty two and that never goes away. So I talk about the stuff I like and I talk about the mistakes I’ve made. I just think it’s really important. [00:57:05][43.9]

Jameela: [00:57:07] Can I ask, just out of curiosity, why you choose like Botox and fillers, is that because you don’t want to age or is it a is it like you like a certain look, you like it to look smooth? I’m just curious. [00:57:21][14.0]

Katherine: [00:57:21] There’s a certain look that I like. So like you, I love little cute grandmothers, but I love the way Erica Jane looks. I love the way Cher looks. I love the way Dolly Parton looks, the way Joan Rivers looked. Yeah, I like that look. And so I’m not really going for a decade. I’m going for like that esthetic. [00:57:44][23.0]

Jameela: [00:57:46] Esthetic. Yeah, no, I love it. And I’m looking at you in your in your feather feather trimmed pajamas, silk pajamas. And I’m like, OK, yeah, I love it. I love the way you look. I want to talk to you before you go about just we have obviously seen this huge rise in comedians being called out, men who are in comedy being called out for the creepy pervy and sometimes kind of illegal behavior. And one of the things I think is really weird is the fact that so many women are being asked to comment on it as if it’s their responsibility. Are you finding this happened to you? [00:58:23][36.9]

Katherine: [00:58:24] Yeah, I think that it’s a tricky one, because my advice from a selfish perspective to maybe a novice comedian would be staying out of it and keeping your opinions to yourself benefits you being an agreeable, quote unquote, good girl, turning the other cheek and just focusing on your work and your stand up and not being difficult benefits you, but it doesn’t benefit anyone else. So there was certainly a time in my career early on where it’s like, really, what is the use commenting on some of these inequalities? Because you just get labeled whiny or problem and you’re not influential. [00:59:18][54.4]

Jameela: [00:59:19] Or a bit much, like me. [00:59:19][0.0]

Katherine: [00:59:21] Is that what they say you’re a bit much? But haven’t you heard? Who was it? Whitney Cummings said, if you think I’m a bit much, maybe you’re just not enough. Yeah,. [00:59:30][8.9]

Jameela: [00:59:31] Yeah I love that line. [00:59:31][0.2]

Katherine: [00:59:31] Too little or too little. Yeah. So now I’m at a position where I think I have more freedom in the jobs I choose. I tour on my own so I don’t need to be welcomed on to a bill. So I do speak about the discrepancies that I’ve seen, but it’s this real catch twenty two, because women are already considered, you know, generally we are considered across the board less funny by both, you know, men and women and all genders will just are happy to say women are less fine. And then it’s like, well, why are you mad? When are you whining about, well, why are you so angry? And it’s like when your little sister takes your arm and goes to stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself. And it’s like all we’re doing. I mean, I’m not all we’re doing is observing. And if these other comedians, our counterparts can’t just observe the same things that we’re seeing, you’re meant to be observing. You’re a comedian is sort of the Jerry Seinfeld. What’s the deal with airplane food? All we’re really saying is, hey, what’s the deal with the rape culture in my industry? It’s like we’re just commenting on and I think that’s OK to go. Well, this is definitely different. And I I shared this piece. I think an American comedian was joking about a open spot woman giving him a blowjob to get stage time and how he really broke her down. It ruined her life. She left L.A. with dirty fingernails or something. And this was a joke. Everyone’s commenting. Oh, he’s only joking. He’s a really nice guy. He’s only joking. But it’s like those are the people. The fans of that type of that’s always the joke, so the joke is I exist in an industry where women are largely regarded as like sex holes. That’s always the joke. And on bills, it’ll be man, man, man, man, man, man man. One woman, if it’s any more women than that until very recently, then that wasn’t acceptable, oh it was too female heavy. So, you know, I’ve had a very easy time in comedy. I’ve been very lucky, as I say. But that’s not discounting the fact that I have listened to comedian after comedian after comedian, in my experience, especially in America, degrade women. That’s the joke. And then it’s my turn. So there’s just something about that that you have to notice. You have to go. All right. But we’re just noticing and all their fans go, we’ll stop trying to cancel the guy that we love. It’s like, well, I’m not trying to cancel anybody. I’m just saying, look, look at that. This is how it is. [01:02:14][162.8]

Jameela: [01:02:15] Is that OK? Is that acceptable? Why are we doing that? Is it laziness that we can’t just shift and change and make people feel a bit more safe in this fucking industry? Well, I’m very glad that you have prevailed all the way to the very top through all of that gross culture. And I’m so grateful for you coming on today and talking to me about all these deeply personal things. And I love you so much. And before you go, will you just tell me, Katherine Ryan, what do you weigh? [01:02:37][22.2]

Katherine: [01:02:39] Oh, gosh, not a lot. I, I vary my BMI, by your standards, is low. I weigh a career that I really love, really love. I weigh a daughter whom I really think is exceptional and I look up to and whose time and company I really enjoy. I weigh properties that I was the first woman in my family to buy property by herself. And I again have closed on pedestal feminism once again. But fuck those other bitches and. It wasn’t my grandmother’s fault, like my grandma wouldn’t have been allowed to buy a house, so, I mean, I had a head start and I weigh like, I think I have a nice rapport with I like my audiences. I think they’re good people. Do you know what I mean? My audiences aren’t in Whitney Cummings’ DMs threatening her. They’re just like, nice. Um, dogs. Can you do dogs? [01:03:53][74.4]

Jameela: [01:03:53] You can do dogs. You can weigh anything you like, anything you feel like, anything that you weigh the sum of all your parts. Do you also weigh a seventy five year old daughter? Emotionally. [01:04:03][9.9]

Katherine: [01:04:05] Yes. [01:04:05][0.0]

Jameela: [01:04:09] She’s a little old Indian woman, that’s what she is. Yeah, that’s who I that’s who I feel like I’m with spiritually. Well, thank you. Thank you for your contribution to women in comedy, as you once said about what did you say about was it when you were like Amy Schumer could be raping me right now? Is that what you said or could be fisting me? [01:04:28][19.8]

Katherine: [01:04:29] Oh I said oh, I was talking about actually. And this was brought up again in Drew Dicksons on the record documentary. Have you seen that? [01:04:36][7.1]

Jameela: [01:04:37] No, I haven’t. [01:04:37][0.5]

Katherine: [01:04:39] It’s about Russell Simmons. But she explained very eloquently how a lot of black women are in this position where they’ve seen just the pillaging of black men and they feel this instinct to protect them. But then when something happens to them, they also they’re sort of trapped between like we’ll do a stand up for myself as a woman having been assaulted or do I protect these black men and no one protects black women? So she’s talking about that. That’s actually what I was talking about with the Bill Cosby accusers. I talked about how they were black women and he was a really successful black man at that time who’d done so much for visibility of positive black dad on television, the biggest guy on television. So they were stuck and they were like, oh, God, well, I don’t want to go against him, but I do need to speak my own truth. And then I said, I understand as a female comedian what that’s like because Amy Schumer could be wearing me like a watch. [01:05:37][58.7]

Jameela: [01:05:38] That’s what you said. [01:05:39][0.3]

Katherine: [01:05:39] And I’d have to be like, thank you for everything you’ve done for women in our industry. So it’s like a dark subject, but that’s what I was talking about. [01:05:47][8.2]

Jameela: [01:05:49] Well thank you for coming on this podcast today. Thank you for being such a joy and thank you for having entertained me up close and from afar for almost a decade now. I love you loads and it’s a really nice to see your face. [01:06:00][12.0]

Katherine: [01:06:00] I love you. Thank you for blessing me with your chat. [01:06:03][2.4]

Jameela: [01:06:04] I’ll speak to you soon. Lots of love. Bye bye. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s Episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and research by myself, Jameela Jamil, Aaron Finnegan and Kimi Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. We also have a bonus series exclusively on Stitcher Premium called Ask Jameela Anything. Check it out. You can get a free month of Stitcher Premium by going to stitcher.com/premium and using the promo code I Weigh. Lastly over at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at 1-818-660-5543 or email us what you weigh IWeighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mike to one of our fabulous listeners. [01:06:58][54.4]

Listener: [01:07:00] I weigh my empathy, my role as a stay at home parent, persistence, public service, and current effort running for state assembly. [01:07:00][0.0]

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