EP. 200 — Zeze Millz

Jameela Intro [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, a podcast against shame. My voice is still sexy. It is now been a month of this whatever the fuck this cough is that’s come out of Europe. And I hope you don’t have it, but if you do, you have my utmost sympathy. Okay, so today is our 200th episode which is such an amazing achievement. I didn’t know if anyone would ever listen to this podcast, nevermind how many of you have listened from episode number one all the way to 200. Some of you joined us late and went back and listened to all of them. And when I get your Spotify wrapped at the end of every year, it means the world to me because this has been such an incredible journey and one that I’ve learned so much on and I’ve learned a lot not just from my guests, but also from all of you. And thank you for all the people that you’ve introduced me to on this podcast, and all the people you’ve told me to interview. I’ve learned about all kinds of different people from all kinds of different walks of life, thanks to your DMs, so please keep them coming because I am not omni aware of everyone and I love to know who it is you want me to talk to. This week’s episode is someone that a lot of people have been asking me to get on for a while. She’s someone I’ve been a fan of for a long time. She’s not without controversy, but who is interesting who isn’t? I really like her. And I, of course, as a controversial myself, have some sort of affinity with her. Her name is Zeze Millz, and she’s a wonderful UK TV presenter as well as a YouTuber and a really, really prominent and rising cultural commentator. And she talks about all kinds of things like women’s issues, dating issues, life for millennials, the issues of colorism, the issues within the black community. She’s someone who ruffles feathers sometimes, but her intentions, I think are so innately pure. And she gets mischaracterized all the time on the internet, which I find really frustrating to watch because she’s out there and she’s a straight shooter and she has no filter, and sometimes she maybe doesn’t deliver the message perfectly and either do I, and she’s just willing to grow in public. She’s pretty shameless in a way that I think is incredibly admirable. And we need more women like that. We also need more dark skinned black women and more women of color to be able to feel safe to do that because they are especially mischaracterized as aggressive and problematic just by having any kind of objection or opinion. And so I think Zeze is very important for all women, but especially for those women to remember that you are allowed to speak your mind and you are allowed to characterize yourself, and you are allowed to decide whether or not you are being aggressive. And you have agency over the way that you choose to portray yourself. And you don’t just go away when everyone decides something about you. You keep going and you keep rising and you keep growing, and then you arrive where she’s at, which is a really exciting place in her career. And so it just goes to show that speaking your mind doesn’t always create the end of the world. I think she’s very inspiring. I think she’s a very clear thinker, and I think that her rise on the internet is just going to continue to grow. And I like having an imperfect but passionate and strong and intelligent and thoughtful human being, thoughtful woman for us to listen to is very important. So in this episode, we talk about the things we have in common. We disagree sometimes on certain outlooks or certain approaches which I think is also really important and really good. And I like the fact that we’re both really straightforward. This was our first proper conversation, and by the end of it, I just loved her even more than I already had from just sort of watching her in my parasocial relationship online. This episode is largely about talking about the price of speaking your mind, but also the price of not speaking your mind and what that can do for your mental health, the price of fame, the price of having an opinion, whether it’s at school or in the office or on a public platform. She’s so open and so authentic. And I just really love this chat and I hope you do too. Please message me. Please follow her everywhere she goes because I do think she’s a really interesting one to watch. And so I give you the excellent Zeze Millz.

Jameela [00:04:14] Zeze Millz, welcome to I Weigh. Hello.

Zeze [00:04:17] Hello. Thanks for having me. I’m so excited to be here actually, it’s like

Jameela [00:04:20] Haha!

Zeze [00:04:20] I feel, I feel like a cool kid. I don’t know why, I just feel like.

Jameela [00:04:26] I don’t know, man.

Zeze [00:04:28] You know, like, you have all the cool kids on your pod, so I’m like, I must be, like somewhat cool that you wanted to have me on.

Jameela [00:04:34] I’ve wanted to have you on this podcast for ages. And I find it so surprising that we haven’t crossed paths sooner, but I’ve been a big fan of yours for a long time. And actually, to be perfectly honest, I thought you were too much of a cool kid to want to come on my podcast, so I was too scared to ask you for ages.

Zeze [00:04:51] Me?

Jameela [00:04:52] And so this is quite sweet.

Zeze [00:04:55] But as you know already, we have to let the world know because it’s not just you I have secretly been, you actually have a DM in your DMs of me going, “Hi, I really love your work, I really love,  we’re really opinionated. Do you think you’d want to come on my show?” And so look and now we’re here.

Jameela [00:05:10] I know, and I didn’t see it, and then I sent you the same message and then realized you’d already asked me.

Zeze [00:05:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:05:16] That is so funny. But yeah, I’m a I’m a huge fan of yours. You are one of the most outspoken people in Britain. And that comes at an extra price when you’re not a white man, when you are a black woman, a dark skinned black woman. And I massively, massively respect you. And I know that sometimes the internet is not always happy with you, and I can heavily relate. And I want to get into today,  guess that experience of being outspoken and what you’ve lived through and learned from doing so because I think we have a lot of shared experiences.

Zeze [00:05:48] 100%

Jameela [00:05:48] And I think, you know, we’re a similar ish age. I think you’re a few years younger than me, but we’ve come up at a similar time of the emergence of the internet and not really knowing how fast information travels and how divisive it was going to become. And we’ve both really put ourselves out there in a very kind of, very raw way. And that is something that can be very fulfilling and empowering, not just to us, but to other people, but it also comes at a price. And so I want to start by asking you what led you to being so outspoken? Because I just feel like you came out of the gate swinging online.

Zeze [00:06:27] So originally

Jameela [00:06:28] I don’t remember you ever having like, like a sort of cute, discreet phase and neither did I.

Zeze [00:06:35] So basically, originally when I first, I’ve always want to do acting, that was my main thing I wanted to do. I went to theater school and that was what I wanted. And you know how acting goes, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes it takes longer than you want it to take. So in that time, I was always trying to figure out what I wanted to do, but there was this incident that kind of sparked me realizing that me speaking up and talking on behalf of myself and maybe other women, that it was extremely important. So, me and three of my friends at the time, we didn’t get into a club called District, and it was because we were too dark and too fat, and it basically went viral. We shared the text messages between the guy on the door and my friend who he had told to come, and it basically went viral. And there was loads of other black women coming out talking about how they had been discriminated against about going to clubs in the West End. You know, there’s a certain look that they like to have in their club, and if you don’t kind of fit that, then there’s always an excuse when you get to the door.

Jameela [00:07:32] So disgusting.

Jameela [00:07:33] It’s full, oh it’s this, it’s too that, and that’s basically what they told us. They told us that the guys table was full, but we already knew he wasn’t even there yet because he was texting my friend and telling her he was on the way. Got there now, we were trying to get in. He was like, “You just need to give me a second.” Then he basically texted my friend and said, “My boss has said that one of your friends is too dark and one of your friends is too fat,” basically. And we shared it. And I then started speaking out online about Colourism and how it affects darker skinned women. And so many women basically started flooding my DMs and saying, “Oh my God, thank you so much for speaking up about this. Thank you. I didn’t, I’ve never I’ve always wanted to say it, but they never believe us or they always try to gaslight us. Keep speaking up.” And obviously being in this industry, especially doing acting, I’ve, I’ve always kind of had that experience with colorism and the feeling of, you know, you go to an audition and you kind of always know that maybe the light skinned woman is going to get it. They kind of, you’re kind of just there to tick a box, almost, so I’ve kind of always experienced that, and that’s kind of how it sparked. But then what I found was I like to talk about loads of things. I don’t always like talk about serious things. Sometimes I like to talk about sex. Sometimes I like to talk about loads of, loads of a plethora of things. And it was hard for me to kind of, because I came out of the gate as this kind of black activist talking for black women, and, you know, “This is wrong.” When I felt like if I were to talk about something fun, people would be like, “What the hell was going on?” because I was introduced talking about something so seriously.

Jameela [00:09:00] Same, same, same.

Zeze [00:09:01] Yeah. Yeah. So it was like, actually, how now do I talk about giving head? Because, you know, I like I enjoy that, like I want to talk about that. How to talk about, you know, being into women or being or, you know, like, how do I talk about this without people be thinking, “Wait a minute, you were just talking about standing up for your rights.” And I think some people don’t understand that you could be both. Especially like when you’re a woman. It’s either you’re really serious all the time.

Jameela [00:09:26] And on your soap box. Yeah.

Jameela [00:09:28] Or really, yeah, or your the total opposite. It’s like you almost can’t be both.

Jameela [00:09:33] It’s also that you sort of like, we turn women who stand for anything into a sort of saint like figure, so then the idea that she’s having sex or getting drunk or going out and doing drugs or doing anything, all of that just doesn’t really fit with this Joan of Arc narrative.

Zeze [00:09:49] Yes.

Jameela [00:09:49] Of this woman who stands for something, we look at her only as a martyr. If I post about anything other than activism, like people are like, “What are you doing? There’s this happening in the world,” and this is happening for, you know, my whole career pretty much. And I actually find it quite funny and and quite cool that if I post anything other than words, I get no engagement on my Instagram. Like a picture of me, no one gives a shit what I’m wearing. No one gives a shit about my life. No one gives a shit about my dogs like I, and I love that. I feel genuinely like, I feel very respected. I’ve been thinking recently about, like, Joan of Arc and like all these, like, women and like Mother Teresa, all these women, and I’m just like, they had these whole lives that we don’t know about beyond.

Zeze [00:10:29] That’s so true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:10:30] The action of sacrifice and how horrific their lives were because they gave their life to service. But there’s

Zeze [00:10:37] Yeah.

Jameela [00:10:37] There’s all kinds of orgasms. Did they use butt plugs? Did they? Were they queer? Were they like, you know, what were their friends like? Did they have a party?

Zeze [00:10:47] Did they like, did they ever just lay in? Were they always out in the field fighting?

Jameela [00:10:51] Exactly.

Zeze [00:10:52] Did Joan of Arc have a, did she lay in one day till 12:00?

Jameela [00:10:54] Yeah.

Zeze [00:10:54] Or was she up every morning?

Jameela [00:10:59] Haha! I don’t know about this, and I’m like, God, we don’t know anything about these women beyond their service for other people, like, not, not really. And even the books and the stories about them are just still very much so, like according to what was for others is so little or like maybe their abusive childhood or this, that, and the other.

Zeze [00:11:16] Yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:11:17] Or what they got wrong, what they did imperfectly in their attempt to help others.

Zeze [00:11:23] Mhm.

Jameela [00:11:23] But these are whole individuals and I, and it’s so interesting, not that I’m comparing us, by the way, to Joan of Arc.

Zeze [00:11:29] Yeah, I know. They’ll be someone who’s like, “Oh, look at these two.”

Jameela [00:11:31] But I’m just saying that these activists, these activists, like, you know, they, they were human beings and and I think it’s interesting. And so, you know, that sometimes you say the things other people aren’t willing to say, and sometimes you say controversial things and you get fucking dogpiled the way that I do. How does that feel? Because I think because you’ve been so tough online, and then also we treat black women and black people like they don’t have any feelings and like they aren’t human beings.

Zeze [00:12:01] Right. And they got like really tough skin. Yeah.

Jameela [00:12:03] Yeah. And you get a sort of almost piled on, dare I say, more by your community because I get piled on more by my community than anyone else.

Zeze [00:12:11] 100%.

Jameela [00:12:11] It’s not white supremacists who I have to deal with, it’s mostly like brown women.

Zeze [00:12:15] Yeah, yeah, it’s exactly that. And even in the beginning when I was talking about Colourism back in the day, and I don’t speak about as much as I used to, but when I used to be, it would be black women that would be comments like, “You’re making us look weak. Stop talking about this.” And I’d be like, “what’s going on?” Or “Why do you care?” And it’s like

Jameela [00:12:33] Or you’re just bitter, and you weren’t good enough.

Zeze [00:12:35] Yeah, or, “Well, sorry, I’ve never had, black men love me or I’ve never had an experience, and I’m a dark skinned woman and they and I’ve never had this.” And it’s just, that is quite true. But for me, it depends on the day and how whatever else is going on in my life, like you was just saying about all these other women that we, we, we hear about and we’re taught about, how do we know that on the day, you know, Joan of Arc had to go out and kill, that she didn’t find that her boyfriend was cheating on her, but she still had to go out. You know like, do you know what I mean, like, go out and do it because it all depends on the day.

Jameela [00:13:08] Or one day she’s already had a wank, so she’s like chill. Haha!

Zeze [00:13:11] Haha! Yeah. But for me it literally is that.

Jameela [00:13:16] Oh my God, we’re going to hell. We’re already going to hell, but she’s going to be like, she’s going to haunt us in our bedrooms tonight like we’re fucked.

Zeze [00:13:25] No, I’m saying the powerful woman that she was, we don’t know what she had going on behind closed doors. We, I’ve had so many times when I’ve gone to present something and I’ve literally cried. Like this morning, if I didn’t tell you that I was crying three hours ago, four hours ago, you would never know that I was crying because I’m just going to come on here and I’m going to be like, “Hi, how are you?” So it genuinely is dependent on my day, what I’ve got going on. It’s hard sometimes, especially when you, the people, are making you seem like you’re malicious or you’ve got ill intent and you know yourself that that’s not where it’s coming from. And people kind of questioning your character. I think that’s the hardest thing for me, is people questioning my character and calling me names outside of what I know I am, if that makes sense.

Jameela [00:14:06] What do you think people characterize you as?

Zeze [00:14:08] Argumentative, definitely. Chip on the shoulder. Angry, bitter, just complaining if that, there’s always something wrong. Like if they ever post me on any of the blog sites or of anything I’ve said it’s like,”Oh, she’s always talking. She’s always got something to say. Oh, could she just give it a rest?” And it’s, and that is also annoying because it’s like I’m trying to say something that I think people should hear. And also, even if you don’t like it, I never understand why you comment. Like, if you really don’t like what I say, just keep scrolling and you don’t need to engage with me because it’s not for you.

Jameela [00:14:43] Yeah, especially I think if someone doesn’t care if someone’s like, “I don’t care what her opinion is.” It’s like, then just like I’ve muted, I muted the Guardian six years ago and I’ve known nothing but peace. Like I don’t, I don’t know anything.

Zeze [00:14:55] Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:14:56] I know nothing. I don’t watch the show and that’s not like a diss against them. It’s just like there’s certain people I’m just like, “I’m actually not interested in this,” you know, there’s like certain, most male pundits in England I’ve muted so that I don’t have to hear their names. I don’t hear Piers Morgan, like I never hear their names, so it’s like they don’t exist. So it’s funny when people follow someone, like avidly.

Zeze [00:15:19] Sorry my TV’s just started playing randomly.

Jameela [00:15:21] That’s Joan of Arc. Joan of Arc fucking turned your TV on.

Zeze [00:15:24] Oh my god, yes!

Jameela [00:15:24] She’s come here to fuck up our record. That’s it, we’ve summoned the baddest bitches in history.

Zeze [00:15:29] Oh my God.

Jameela [00:15:31] I joked about them wanking and now we’re never going to know peace.

Zeze [00:15:35] And now I know. Sorry, Joan.

Jameela [00:15:38] Sorry, Joan. And Mother Teresa. I heard you had a really dark side, and I really don’t want to be on it. Haha!

Zeze [00:15:44] Haha!

Jameela [00:15:54] So I’ve never understood why people avidly follow someone or complain about hearing about someone that they just don’t have to hear about. No one is forced into your periphery or like into your like timeline. You choose what comes into your timeline to a certain degree. And it just stresses you out to see their name. What’s funny for me though, is that when I don’t weigh in on subjects and everyone’s like, “Why isn’t she weighed in on this yet?” I get messages, hundreds of thousands of DM like, “Why haven’t you weighed in on this?”

Zeze [00:16:19] Yeah.

Jameela [00:16:19] And I’m just like, it’s so stressful to have every time anything happens in the world, people be like, “Why haven’t you, your silence is deafening.” And then other people just being like, “Why is this bitch weighing in on her opinion all the time?” Have you experienced, especially when you were younger, a feeling once you had spoken out of obligation to then weigh in on certain subjects, especially if they impact the black community or if they impact women or something in your industry. Have you felt like a less than a natural urge, but more of a kind of like people are pressuring you to speak because it’s the sort of thing you would normally speak about?

Zeze [00:16:53] 100% Not necessarily people are pressuring me, but I sometimes feel like I have a duty. So even if I don’t want to speak on something, if like you said, if I know it affects my community or things that I have spoken about before, I feel like sometimes, yeah, okay, maybe share your thoughts on this. With me, I think the way I came into it, sometimes it doesn’t, in the beginning it didn’t feel like work because I had two jobs. I had a 9 to 5, and then this was my side hustle. And then I got made redundant and I was like, “Hey, let me just give this a go.” And then it kind of, you know, so it was a serious hobby that I wanted to become my career, but in that it’s just like in work sometimes you don’t always want to go to a meeting, sometimes you don’t always want to do a project. And that’s kind of how I see speaking out about certain things is, okay I might not necessarily want to talk about this today because I’m not in the right headspace, or I’m not ready for the backlash of my opinion. And sometimes, to be fair, as I’ve got older, I don’t know about yourself things that used to bother me before, they don’t bother me now. So there’s things that when I was a little, in the early stages of my career and I would definitely speak about and I wanted to speak about, and then I’ll see those same type of subject matters now or issues and I’ll be like, “I genuinely don’t care. I couldn’t care less and I don’t want to speak about,” yeah, and that’s

Jameela [00:18:10] I’m not gonna ask you what those subjects are because then I drag you back into speaking about them.

Zeze [00:18:15] Or sometimes it’s things that you think to yourself, “What’s the point of me speaking about this?” Because I’ve said

Jameela [00:18:20] It’s not going to move needles, yeah.

Zeze [00:18:21] So many times what my thought is and you’re still not hearing me. And then when I do speak, you’re going to all come and call me bitter black woman or, you know, and that’s why one of the subjects actually colourism. I used to talk about colorism all the time. And then as time went on, it just became, I just always would find myself getting so tired all the time and angry and on and, like, ready to just snap at people anytime they spoke about, I spoke about colorism because they wouldn’t get it. There would always be a rebuttal, you know.

Jameela [00:18:48] Yeah.

Zeze [00:18:49] It was always, we were always made to feel like, “Oh, it’s, it’s all in your head.”

Jameela [00:18:53] You’ve also found a really smart way to be able to have that conversation without having it all the time, which is via Breaking Through, which is your TV show in which you have like, I think like predominantly like black British actors who speak on their careers, right?

Zeze [00:19:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:19:07] So this is like a way to be able to do it where you’re not just like on your Twitter.

Zeze [00:19:12] And do my videos, but I do love a good rant video. I love a good rant video.

Jameela [00:19:16] I know you. Hahaha!

Zeze [00:19:18] But it’s so funny because I could go and spend like shitloads of money on like, good production, right?

Jameela [00:19:24] Yeah.

Zeze [00:19:24] And put that, put that clip up. No one cares. I’ll do a little rant video with bad sounding, bad lighting, you know, so people really do still enjoy those rant videos because I think they feel, it feels off the cuff and genuine.

Jameela [00:19:38] Is there anything you look back on and have regrets or like, I would have done that differently, but I say that because I’ve been going through like a very and I think my audience are aware of this because in the last few years I’ve been really like kind of experiencing a sort of mea culpa of not demonizing myself for not getting it perfectly right because fucking hell, like what training did women, women of color have in speaking about important issues? We were always told just to shut the fuck up and smile back and look retty.

Zeze [00:20:07] That’s so true. Yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:20:08] But, so I can forgive myself for my mistakes and my clumsiness. But I do recognize that like, that I was unhelpful and I was divisive, and I spoke in a way that I think contributed to our climate of divisiveness being something that became popular because I was so congratulated for how bold and rude and callous

Zeze [00:20:27] Right, right, right.

Jameela [00:20:27] And like and and like heart in the right place and like correct I was sometimes but I do look back and go like, “Fuck.” When I look back at my old, I don’t even recognize the person who said some of those things in that way. I know what she was feeling, but it’s like even when I used to slut shame people like ten years ago or more, I, I know what I was thinking. What I was thinking was, why is there this imbalance in male and female nudity? Why in the hip hop videos or like in the music videos is the girl like Miley Cyrus or whoever, like the Rihanna or Beyonce, like, why are they naked, and then the man’s in outdoor winter layers in the same room, like, what’s the temperature in any room ever?

Zeze [00:21:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:21:06] And what I wanted was an equality of nudity, but what it came out in because of my language and my poor communication and my also being from a comedy background, so trying to be like flippant and tongue in cheek and T4, you know, which is the show that I was on, which is very irreverent and rude to pop stars. It came across just like I hate women and that I blame them for everything, and I don’t acknowledge any patriarchy. And I didn’t understand the system, which I didn’t, you know of that means that women are told that that’s what they have to do to get through the door. But my heart was just going like, “Why do we have to do all the work?” Because that means that men see this and go, “Oh, that’s how it should be.” Women do all the work and we just sit there and wait to get pleasured until we come and that we don’t have to learn anything about a woman’s pleasure. We don’t have to like to work for a woman. So I was just mad. But that’s just an example of me going back being like, “Oh my God.” I was a bit toothier and was probably helpful. I probably could have reached across to more people if I’d been less like of an alley cat about it.

Zeze [00:22:02] Do you, but then, see, sometimes I do feel like that, and then sometimes I feel that if I didn’t speak how I spoke, then the message, no one would have listened.

Jameela [00:22:11] Yeah.

Zeze [00:22:12] So I think sometimes with what you, we’ll with me, I know I’ll sometimes maybe record a video more times it will be one time and I’ll put it out, but sometimes I’ll record it and I’ll be like, that is not going to get the message across. Like what I want people to understand from this message, they’re not going to get it from me just talking normally. And I think unfortunately, people do gravitate to that kind of shock factor, if that makes sense.

Jameela [00:22:39] Yeah. It’s also that the algorithm is the thing that’s going to push

Zeze [00:22:43] Right.

Jameela [00:22:43] The more shocking or divisive or outrageous.

Zeze [00:22:47] 100%. Yeah.

Jameela [00:22:47] You know, it’s going to, whatever’s going to generate the most commentary. But you are right that there is truth to the fact that unfortunately, it is the bold and sort of raw and sometimes violent communication that travels the farthest. I think that’s just so destructive to our society. Not, I’m not blaming you. I’m just saying that

Zeze [00:23:07] No, no, no, yeah.

Jameela [00:23:07] That’s what gets promoted because there is a passive side to you and me.

Zeze [00:23:11] Oh, 100%, 100%. Also, what I’ve kind of, and maybe this is not the right way to be, but I’ve also thought, well, you don’t think I’m like this anyway, so it is what it is. Because even if I do put a video out sometimes where I’m being calm and whatever somebody is still going to find, “Oh, look at her. She’s being condescending. Oh, she’s look at this.” There’s always going to be something because I think I’m just a character that is quite polarizing anyway. I don’t, you either really like me, you think I’m, or you’re kind of like “Um, I don’t she’s annoying.” So I think the people that get me, they get me. The people that understand that I’m not necessarily coming from a malicious place, a divisive place.

Jameela [00:23:52] You’ve also I think

Zeze [00:23:53] Do you know what I mean?

Jameela [00:23:53] Yeah, I also think we’ve sort of worn people down because I think when we first came up, sorry.

Zeze [00:23:59] No, I have

Jameela [00:24:00] No, but just like hear me out. Hear me out, I hear me out. Yeah. But what I mean is that I think that when we first came out swinging, both of us, whether we were always right or wrong, and I’m not saying we were always right and I don’t want to speak for you, I definitely wasn’t, but I think that people thought we were just doing this for a quick flash of attention to get our name out there.

Zeze [00:24:21] Right.

Jameela [00:24:21] To, to like, make a name for ourselves, and then we could go on and take the grift and then use it to, just then turn it into a fashion career or an acting career or this that and the other.

Zeze [00:24:31] Right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:24:33] It’s like I’ve made my name because, you know, you’re trying to get your 15 minutes of fame, but I feel like you and I banging on about some of, sometimes like the smallest shit that we get involved in, like things that we don’t need to be getting involved in, in the public chat. But I feel like people have realized that we literally can’t help ourselves and that we’re not, it’s not an attempt to be like, “Look at me.” We’re both trying to be like, “Look at this. Look at this issue.”

Zeze [00:24:55] But with me, though, people did think that with me. They thought that this was my because the acting didn’t work. Now this was my way to become a thing, if that makes sense.

Jameela [00:25:06] Yeah.

Zeze [00:25:07] Do you get it? So it was like, “Oh, she failed at acting,” rather than, “Oh, she’s trying to do this to get into that, to get into another way.” It was like, “Oh, this is the only way people are going to care about her.” And I remember even people that I grew up with that had known, knew me, they had said little things like, “Oh, you’re just doing this to try and get attention or it’s because the acting didn’t work.” I would be like, “No, I genuinely care about everything I’m talking about.” Like you said, even if it’s small, I’m just always been that. My mom always said from a young age, I always wanted to get the last word in, so I just think it’s actually my characteristic. She’s like, even up to this day when we have an argument, she’s like, “You don’t always have to get the last word.” I’m like, “Well, technically you want the last word because you just told me I want the last word. We could have just left it.”

Jameela [00:25:48] Yeah. I don’t know about you, but, like, I don’t have this sense of what fame is or a bigger platform is. I really see it in my head, in the moment. I can later look back and be like, “That was quite irresponsible.” But in the moment I’m like, I don’t sit there being like, “I am Jameela Jamil of The Good Place on Netflix, who is weighing into this subject. Kiss my ring.” I’m just like, “Oh, this is interesting. Let’s have a chat about this.”

Zeze [00:26:18] Right.

Jameela [00:26:18] You know, that’s it. I’m chatty, I’m chatty, I’m interested. I really like, I can’t stand injustice, and I like chatting to people. It’s how I learn. Like, I’m not always saying I’m right. I’m saying what my opinion is. And I’m like, “Change my opinion.” I do recognize, however, that when I say my opinion, and I might change my opinion, some people might take my wrong opinion and then be like, “Well, Jameela Jamil said that, so that’s what I should think now.”

Zeze [00:26:43] Right, right.

Jameela [00:26:43] So in that way I become careful. Do you feel like you have become more thoughtful? Like, do you feel like you’ve made mistakes?

Zeze [00:26:50] Oh, yeah, definitely. I’m definitely thoughtful as well, and I’m definitely thoughtful about my audience, if that makes sense. Even sometimes when I talk about sexual things, I’ll have, like, young girls be like, “Oh, my God, Zeze, I love you.” And I look at them like, “You are definitely about 15 or 16. And if you’re watching my content, I was literally talking about giving head yesterday. That was wild. Let me like, reel that shit in.” Yeah, so I’m aware of my influence or that that it could have on younger girls. My thing is I’m really passionate about the younger generation, like younger women, if that makes sense.

Jameela [00:27:22] Is what you’re doing now partially also to inspire young women to be able to speak their opinions. Why the fuck aren’t be allowed to just say what we think?

Zeze [00:27:30] 100%

Jameela [00:27:30] They say what they think all the time. They give their unsolicited opinions all the time. Do you feel as though that is something that is important to you? To not let people quiet someone down or like, use the fucking trope of annoying, I can’t stand that trope for women. It’s so lazy.

Zeze [00:27:45] I know, I know. Yeah, 100%. 100%. Like speak up, use your voice. Don’t be, don’t be afraid. And it’s so interesting because when that whole thing happened with district and it went viral, I was living in my mom’s house at the time, but it was three generations. So it was my grandmom, my mom, and me. And I just remember how, so when it was all like unraveling, it was everywhere. It was like on all those channels, new channels. It was such a weird time, like it went global, like it was such a weird concept. But my gran was like, she was telling me to be quiet. She was like, “Whoa!” Because we did a protest, everything, went outside the club, it was like this whole thing. And my grandma was like, “Why are you doing that? That’s too much,” like, “Shh, be quiet.” Kind of like you were saying. And my mom, who’s the first generation here, she was like, proud of me. And then when it got, when she felt like it was getting too far, I think it was carrying on a little bit too much. She was like, “Don’t you think you should just be a bit quiet now? Like, “Don’t you think you’ve done enough?” And I was thinking, that’s so interesting, like the different generations of, like you said, who feels like they can speak cause my gran, when she probably came over, she probably just didn’t speak at all, got on with it, done enough to keep her family going and whatever. Then my mom, she’s found more of a voice, and then now I found more of a voice. And then that means the generation underneath me, they can have a bigger voice. Do you know what I mean? The last, when I, when I saw that, I thought, that’s so interesting. You’ve been told to be quiet for so long, all your life, like my gran. You’ve been here for how many years? My mom was 50 something, you know, when that happened. And I think you’ve probably been silent for 50 years. You’ve probably not spoken up about anything that has ever made you feel less than when you’ve had, like you said, injustices. Nothing. You’ve just kept quiet because you’ve been told to keep quiet. And my mom maybe spoke up a bit more. So for me, yeah, it’s 100%, like speak up, especially black women. We always get put labels on. You’re aggressive. You got an attitude problem. Oh, you’ve got a chip on your shoulder. And that’s what makes us be quiet. And it’s difficult. And it’s very hard being a black woman because on a day to day, like your average white woman, she says, “What are you doing?” In her workplace. She doesn’t have to think about how that comes across. Before I even say the simplest things sometimes I have to think, “How is that going to come across? Am I going to be called a bully? Am I going to be called angry? Am I going to be called aggressive just to say, excuse me, could you can you step back a little bit, please?” Do you know what I mean? Something simple as that. Oh well, you know, and it’s all of these things. It’s just a heavy weight on and and the more I can kind of shine light on these issues, then the next generation, they won’t have to quieten themselves or make themselves feel small.

Jameela [00:30:19] Because it’s really detrimental to your mental health.

Jameela [00:30:22] 100%.

Jameela [00:30:22] To keep all of this in and while obviously like the amount of dog piles that I have been, you know, subjected to have sometimes in moments been very bad for my mental health, I generally feel like my mental health has been the best has ever been in the majority in the last ten years since I started speaking my mind, even if I don’t say it perfectly. And the reason that, the reason I wanted to do this episode, right because like, this is the mental health podcast, and this is a slightly more kind of random episode is because I think there is this pivotal link between speaking out and one’s mental health. And you have this glow. You have this glow and this peace to you. And I know you have difficult days and I know you cry often, etc. but there is a power. When I met you, I think we met at like a tennis tournament or whatever, lol neither of us were playing just to be very clear. We were walking in high heels.

Zeze [00:31:14] We were doing doubles. Haha!

Jameela [00:31:14] But we, you know, I was so struck immediately by your, like, self-assurance and your confidence, and your sort of just, like, quiet inner power.

Zeze [00:31:28] Oh, quiet inner power I like that.

Jameela [00:31:29] And I don’t think you would have that if you were quiet and subservient.

Zeze [00:31:34] I agree.

Jameela [00:31:34] I’m not saying that we both couldn’t do with a tiny bit of refining sometimes, but as you say, maybe we wouldn’t have made it a splash without it, but I do believe that because of the way that people like you or me shamed, it sends this sort of flare out to other women to say, “Don’t say your opinion, and if you do

Zeze [00:31:51] 100%.

Jameela [00:31:51] You better be perfect, and you better have lived a perfect life leading up to it and after. You can’t have an opinion unless you’re perfect, so be very, very careful. And even if you are perfect, we might make something up about you to make you seem imperfect, to destroy your credibility, and to start rumors about you, you know, online or at work or at school.” So like, A) I get leveraged as this sort of, like powerful voice for women. But I also get used as this is sort of like, we’re going to drag this bitch by her pubes across the gutter in front of all of you naked. And so you’re going to learn that’s the price of speaking up and being leveraged, etc. It always feels like my duty to myself and also find other women like yourself, but I do feel as though they they try to break you, and then once they realize they can’t, they’ll probably start some rumors about you, and then they’ll move on to the next girl who dares to open her mouth.

Zeze [00:32:43] Or they start

Zeze [00:32:45] Or they start respecting you.

Zeze [00:32:46] Right? When I first started doing Zeze Millz the show, and I was kind of giving my commentary on the culture, and I was, I tell you, when I first started, there was like, not a week that went by that a rapper was not on my neck. And I mean like, they were, some of them would be online like, “She’s a dumb bitch, she’s a this and then that.” And then I’d have all their following coming to my page, and “Why are you talking about him for and why,” And after a while they realized that I wasn’t going anywhere. It’s my manager now, he managed somebody that I spoke about and he before he managed me, he came up to me at this event and was like, “Oh, you spoke on my client the other day,” and I was like, “Oh, really?” And I was working, I was like, “By the way, I’m actually working at the moment, so can we like I’m actually doing the, I’m doing the copy at the moment, so, you know, if this is,” and he was like, “Yeah, but I just want to let you know that spoke about my client. And you know, you got the, you need to be careful about the information you’re spreading.” I was like, “When I spoke about the situation, I didn’t say anything that wasn’t in the papers, and I, and I just gave my opinion of what I read in the paper. It’s nothing. There’s no other information.” Anyway, I said that to say this is that, the way he, when he approached me, it was to, you know, say to me he didn’t like something. And then when we, eventually like a year later sat down for a meeting, he was like, “I thought I spoke to you. And then I went online and I saw you still went about whatever you was doing. You carried on with your show. I thought, I have to respect this woman because there’s so many people that are not happy with what you’re doing because it’s ruffling so many feathers, but you haven’t stopped. You keep, you kept going.” And he’s like, “I respect that so much.” And that’s kind of my story with like the kind of entertainment industry or the rap industry, all the, all the, all the rappers is that they really didn’t like me in the beginning. It was like, “Who’s this girl? Why is she here? Who do you think you are telling us what you don’t like or what we’ve done that you did it to the death?” And then I was just like, “I’m not going anywhere. Like I’m here. I’m going to keep speaking and that’s it.”

Jameela [00:34:41] It feels like being hazed in a fraternity or something where they’re just like, “Do you really mean it? Have you got what it takes?” And then it’s like

Zeze [00:34:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:34:49] How fucking shit can you eat? How much like blood can you lose? And then after a while they’re like, “Oh, fine.”

Zeze [00:34:54] All these people that will be like, “Zeze’s this, Zeze’s that,” I’ve literally had all of them message me to ask me personal questions about their life, or give them advice about their life. Not nothing to date or anything like that. I mean, literally like, “Z this is happening, what do you think?” And I’m like, wait a minute, you’re supposed to not like me. But I’ve learned that is, I think, what it is, especially like we’re seen as a woman, especially in a heavily male populated, scene, they’re always going to feel threatened by women like ourselves. And also, I think it’s always your own.

Jameela [00:35:30] Yeah.

Zeze [00:35:30] Like black men feel threatened by me. White men do not, never feel threatened, but like, they, tou know, I’ve probably had more hand handhelds out in, “Can I help you?” From white men than I have from my own black men, which I find weird, if that makes sense.

Jameela [00:35:45] Why is that?

Zeze [00:35:46] I just think, I think it’s because of, they can’t kind of, like, figure me out, so like let me, she’s too much for me. You know, you’re like when you, even when it comes to dating and stuff, it’s like, “Oh, she’s too opinionated or she’s too this, or she’s always going to have something to say. She always wants to get the last word.” And I just think men don’t like that about women, like we were saying in the beginning.

Jameela [00:36:08] But why do you think specifically black men when you say that.

Zeze [00:36:11] Black men are a little bit more, I would say traditional in the way they feel like women, I guess, should carry themselves, if that you get what I mean. I’m head of the house and they should, you know, you don’t talk about certain things. That’s always black men, “Why’re you talking about sex? That’s disgusting. How? Like who? Like have some decorum.” You know, we’ve got, there’s loads of, like, cultural things as well.

Jameela [00:36:33] I feel the same way with the South Asian culture.

Zeze [00:36:35] Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, how we been brought up and how you carry yourself and

Jameela [00:36:40] I also feel like we’re in a climate where white people probably feel less like they are allowed to criticize us because they will be called racist sometimes, so to say that they don’t want to criticize. I’m just saying that like I feel like our own or people with more melanin in them feel like, “Well, I can say something because I am of color and it’s not going to be seen as racist.”

Zeze [00:36:58] Right, right, right. I get what you’re saying, but I do from the beginning, even before when white people were scared to speak about or come on your page and say something, it’s always kind of been the black men that I’ve had to, especially when I talk about colorism, I think that’s what it is. If I’m being honest, it’s the colorism because I’m holding them to the fire, almost. It’s, I’m saying it’s black men that are making this colorism thing, you come on like, what’s going on?

Jameela [00:37:25] You’re perpetuating it and

Zeze [00:37:25] Yeah, you’re you’re you’re escalating it, pushing it forward.

Jameela [00:37:27] Yeah, yeah, or the way that lighter skinned women are seen as a trophy.

Zeze [00:37:29] Right, yeah. And so and a lot of them didn’t like that I was doing that because now you have to kind of look at yourself, so um yeah, that’s probably, yeah, that’s, yeah. A lot of the issues I talk about have to do with them.

Jameela [00:37:41] Yes, no, I know, I know, I and again like that’s, none of that is my place to comment on, but I do think that like when I talk about similar dynamics sometimes within the South Asian culture and it can really anger South Asian Muslims.

Zeze [00:37:54] Yeah.

Jameela [00:37:54] So I get it. So another thing I want to talk to you about is that you have, in the past, sometimes sat down with people who a lot of people disagree with or don’t like or think have allegedly committed crimes, and people do not wish to have them in society. And we’ve got mutual friends who’ve, like, argued with you over this. Can you talk people through your thinking when you do that? I’m not placing judgment on it. I believe that the only way for us to sometimes understand the people we most oppose with is to actually listen to them and then debate them, and then reason with them. And then that’s the only chance we have of opening people’s mind, like, I think the liberal approach to shutting people out if we don’t agree with them, if they aren’t already perfect and aren’t completely on board, is lazy, is cowardly, and it’s ineffective. And so I agree to an extent with being able to reach across to those people that we should not, you know, technically be seen with because I find it a bit culty that we’re being told who we can and cannot sit down with. But I do want to understand your thinking because you you push that boat out with who you’re willing to sit down with on your show, can you just talk about it?

Zeze [00:39:14] There’s different reasons why I sit down with different people, so there’s an, at one point I sat down with Shaun Bailey, who is like conservative. He was running for Mayor of London at one point, and he was for the Conservative Party, so obviously, again, within my community, it was like, “Why are you sitting down with somebody that is not for us?” And I think for me, when I sat down with him or those other people, when it comes to like politics and stuff is, I think that especially like black and brown, people we’re told who to vote for, and a lot of times we don’t know why, as in, like it’s just our grandparents told and then our mom told us and then but when you actually research, it’s like, “Okay, why am I actually voting for this?” So for me it’s about broadening, giving people both sides and then you choose. I don’t like the idea of even celebrities coming online sometimes, and let people choose if that makes sense. Don’t just be like ramming down people’s throats. Like, yeah, do this because most of the time as well, they have some sort of political agenda or something that aligns with whatever they’re doing, so who even knows? So my thing is always everyone has free will.

Jameela [00:40:18] And they get out the kente cloth.

Zeze [00:40:21] Yeah, yeah. It’s just like, there’s just so many, just so many, yeah, it’s all performative. It’s so performative. And then, you know, and then like I’m saying, there’s young people that are just just going to do what you say because they follow you, if you get what I’m saying. So that was to let people have the information to decide what is best for them. And then somebody else, like when our mate got involved, that was because that situation I feel like at the moment, me personally, we are in a weird space where I feel like somebody can come forward and there has to be no due diligence done and everyone, just the person then loses everything.

Jameela [00:41:04] And this person was accused of sexual misconduct. Just to give context, yes.

Zeze [00:41:09] Yeah, this person was accused of sexual misconduct and within 24 hours he basically got taken everything away from him. Like all these companies, whatever, whatever shows he was on, they all got dropped. So for me, I just think that episode wasn’t about whether he did it or not. It was about exploring the idea that we have entered into this space of being tried by social media and whatever social media says, that’s it. You’re done for. Doesn’t matter if you go to court now, you’ve been found not guilty or whatever, your career is done. And for me personally, I think that’s worrying because it can happen to any of us. And that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be some sort of repercussions or when there’s a trial going on, you step down or your whatever. I just think the quickness of people to react to things when they don’t know the information, they don’t know the full story sometimes, for me is very, very worrying. So that’s why I wanted to kind of sit down with him, to hear his side of the story. And that’s why when I spoke with him, it was never about is she lying or is she not? Or tell me why this is or she said this and that person said this because even after that, people was like, “Why don’t you sit down with this person?” I was like, “No because it was never supposed to be a he said, she said that,” and that wasn’t what I was trying to solve. That wasn’t what I wanted to do. So for me it’s about hard conversations. I like to sit down with people on my platform where there’s difficult conversations to be had, and it allows people to think for themselves. That’s why I have certain people on my show.

Jameela [00:42:41] Mhm. Totally. Yeah. It is, it is an interesting thing. I feel like Lizzo was the first time I’ve seen in that way a woman accused and everyone just went “Yep, I believe it immediately.” Without, without.

Zeze [00:42:53] Do you not think so? I feel like any, um

Jameela [00:42:56] No no no no no. I’m not saying wait, so I’m not saying that women don’t get accused of shit and then it gets bleeped. I’ve been accused of shit and it’s just been, like, taken as gospel.

Zeze [00:43:03] Right, right, right. Yeah.

Jameela [00:43:05] Immediately by the internet. Like, when people are looking for it and then they find it, like a tiny bit when people are looking for a reason to justify their dislike of you. And then they find, like, a nugget of

Zeze [00:43:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:43:14] Accusation, it’s enough, right? So, my point being that, you know, you’re saying that this could happen to any of us. I think a lot of women presume what when, you know, this happens to men because men are far more likely to commit these crimes.

Zeze [00:43:26] Right, right, right.

Jameela [00:43:26] But, it can happen. And it is now happening to more women.

Zeze [00:43:30] Right. Okay, I get what you mean.

Jameela [00:43:31] Where a seed of a, where where an accusation can be decided as like a, as a truth before there’s actually been

Zeze [00:43:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get what you’re saying.

Jameela [00:43:39] Any kind of due due process. And so I do agree with you like, while whatever my opinion may be about that particular person or that particular interview you did, you are 100% right in the conversation about due diligence. And that is something that I do really think is important to discuss and to make sure that we are being hyper vigilant of, especially in a time of A.I. And a time of like being able to manipulate content, and what is video evidence even gonna matter anyway?

Zeze [00:44:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:44:11] What does photographic evidence kind of matter anymore? We saw even in what’s happening in the Middle East, like  things that we thought were footage, looked like videos from video games or A.I., etc. so, you know, like we don’t know what we’re looking at anymore, so at the very least, we have to be able to have the conversation. And it’s also interesting to see that not all women or all accusers get believed like it’s, we also on the left in particular. But I think in the whole world we pick and choose.

Zeze [00:44:36] Right, right. Yeah, definitely.

Jameela [00:44:37] Who if I like her, I’m more likely to believe.

Zeze [00:44:40] Yeah, yeah yeah.

Jameela [00:44:40] If I don’t like her, I’m going to call her a liar. Yeah. Or if it fits the political agenda, it’s like we had one president on the right accused of sexual assault, and we had one president on the left also accused of sexual assault. It was very interesting to see the different way that the media handled both accusations.

Zeze [00:44:55] Yeah.

Jameela [00:44:55] Where you had female politicians who stood for believe all women who were like shutting that shit down and being like, “I think she’s a liar.”

Zeze [00:45:02] Yeah.

Jameela [00:45:03] And everyone was like, “Yeah, I think she’s a liar.” And while I understand where that might come from, it’s just very interesting that we have a very gray area murky, so if this is our system of trial, which is trial by the public opinion, even that is chaotic and blurry and very selective. I think it’s very brave of you to have that conversation, to try and have that conversation.

Zeze [00:45:22] I think people also think that I do these things lightly, as in, because how I started, you remember, I was saying the clips that would go viral. I think people just think I love drama, so I’m going to always sit down with someone that’s going to give me, you know, that interview that’s like “Ooo.” But I, like with that interview, I thought a lot of times over, like before, you know, I sat down with my manager and I thought about the repercussions. I thought about this, I duh, duh, duh, duh.

Jameela [00:45:49] Because it’s seen as a betrayal to women sometimes when you do something like that.

Zeze [00:45:52] And I, and I always knew that was, I always knew, and especially with me if that makes sense because

Jameela [00:45:58] Why especially with you?

Zeze [00:46:00] Because I think a lot of people, I rub people up the wrong way. So maybe if somebody else did it, it might have been taken in a different way, if that makes sense. They might not have had, but because I think I have that kind of stain on me of, “Oh, Zeze loves drama, and she’s always got an opinion and she’s always in the controversial side of things.” Sometimes I think it clouds an interview like that, if that makes sense.

Jameela [00:46:24] I think anyone interviewing someone accused of sexual assault, like the, there’s a reason why he didn’t get, you know interviewed by a lot of people.

Zeze [00:46:31] Because no one got onto Gayle King.

Jameela [00:46:33] Totally.

Zeze [00:46:33] But that’s what I mean, that’s, no one got into Gayle King when she sat down with R. Kelly and he was, that was, you know what I mean?

Jameela [00:46:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zeze [00:46:39] That was, we’d seen the documentary, everything, so and that’s what, and that’s why I put out, I when

Jameela [00:46:43] So you’re saying, you’re saying your intention is what gets denied. It gets

Zeze [00:46:49] Yeah.

Jameela [00:46:49] It gets reduced because, and also I guess when it comes to the women thing, you are one of very few women who doesn’t use your platform, like you do use your platform to talk about what men do that is fucked up in society. But you also are very, very like sort of, I guess, accountable about women or you you are often like.

Zeze [00:47:07] Yeah, and that’s, yeah

Jameela [00:47:09] You know, I think, you know, someone, you know, when you rub them in the wrong way sometimes because you’re somebody like, you do try to call out everyone equally like it feels as though you have a very equal lens in the way that you approach the world.

Zeze [00:47:21] And I, I like

Jameela [00:47:21] And that’s not really the dominat thing online.

Zeze [00:47:22] Like I do. I feel like I do, but this is about a couple months ago think I tweeted something literally in the space of five minutes of each other, one about women, one about men. The woman one that was aimed at the women, oh God, it went around, the girls are crying, everything. Do you think the men cared about anything I had to say about them? And I was holding them accountable, but I don’t know if you know Kevin Samuels. He was like this extreme misogynistic guy. He was

Jameela [00:47:51] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Zeze [00:47:52] Yeah, and he died.

Jameela [00:47:53] I know exactly who you’re talking about.

Zeze [00:47:53] And, he made a point. He said it himself that before he was talking about women, he was doing the same thing with men, so men would call up and you’d be like, “Why do you think any high value woman would want you?” And he said he, no one cared, like the men would see it online and they didn’t care. But the moment he started doing it with women, the women would always react to whatever. And that’s how

Jameela [00:48:14] They engaged.

Zeze [00:48:15] He basically became Kevin Samuels. So women, I think we’re just, we’re more easily, you know, we get involved a bit more easily triggered. It is what it is. But yeah, the women, they always think I’m coming for me.

Jameela [00:48:26] Well, it’s not just that, it’s, I don’t think it’s just that women feel like easily triggered. Just to be fair, I think that it also, we also could look at it as women already feel like the, the world is coming for them. And so I think anyone who adds to that, we have like a sort of just of, and I’m sure as a dark skinned black woman like, and I as a brown woman, feel that way where I’m like, “Fucking hell, man.” Like shit’s already like enough of a battle, like, come on, but I’m with you and I do the same thing. Like, after, you know, I made a comment that I think it was after the Aziz Ansari thing. I wrote this article that went completely viral, in which obviously, like, I’m not, you know, condoning anything that was alleged in that letter. But I was also saying that it has brought up an interesting conversation around consent. And something that I wanted to remind people of is that when you aren’t actually being physically endangered, while I make space for coercive control, I want to remind women that we must reclaim our agency, that if we just like someone so much, or they’re more famous than us or powerful than us, and we’re in awe of them, we have to be able to fight that feeling that that makes us inferior and like we have to go against our integral of sexual desire.

Zeze [00:49:37] Mhm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:49:37] We cannot be victimized as in like, “Well, he had more social power than her,” you know, especially if that’s not someone who even works in the same field as this person.

Zeze [00:49:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:49:45] We have this thing of like, “Well, he’s famous, so he’s got more power.” And I understand what, that that ideology. But also okay, we’ve understood the ideology. Now what do we do with that? Do we just like, always

Zeze [00:49:55] Right, right, right.

Jameela [00:49:55] Claim to be like, “Well, I’m just a powerless woman then who has to do this thing.” And like I said, I stipulated that this is not if you are in any danger. That’s completely different. If you are, if you are endangered in your career or if you’re endangered physically in your life. But people said that that was victim blaming because I was calling for us to find a slightly more empowering way to be like, how can we now work way from this now that we can identify that power struggle? And so women felt like I was on top of all the men who are like rape deniers and this, that, and the other deniers. They felt like I was coming for them, but I wasn’t trying to. But but I do understand that they’re just like, not you as well criticizing us.

Zeze [00:50:33] And do you know what? I have been that woman as well. I’ve seen things like I saw something on insta and this woman talking about black women and hair extensions. I was like “Oh, give it a rest.” What can we do with our hair without someone else now telling us, “Oh, you’re damaging your hair?” And I literally wrote, “Can you just give us a rest, please? Like, honestly, please.” But she probably feels like she’s helping other black women. You know, don’t do this to your hair. You’re damaging it. But I’m just thinking I really have to deal with black men.

Jameela [00:51:00] So then you can see where  it comes from.

Zeze [00:51:01] Oh, yeah, I totally understand where it comes from. But I also like you saying, I think with me, I can sometimes take myself out of things, probably because of what I do. I can take myself out of it. And like you said, look at both sides so I can see, you know, this woman why she probably wants to help black women. And then I can also see, like, “Oh, just give it a rest, sis.” Like I’m going to put, I’m going to relax my hair, right? I ain’t got time for this today. So I get both sides. But and my thing is and I always say this to women, I’m not, whenever I talk about women and men or how men treat us, and men are going to do this, and duh, duh, duh. It’s not because I think men are great, it’s because I have a really low expectation of them. And I, I don’t understand why you lot come online every day and hold them to this level, and then you get disappointed, like you might as well just think they’re rubbish anyway, and then you’re never going to get disappointed. Like why?

Jameela [00:51:55] I think there’s a middle ground there, but yeah I see where I’m coming from.

Zeze [00:51:59] But it’s like every day you’re going to come online and say the same thing.

Jameela [00:52:01] But that is the sort of sentence, the sort of sentence that gets you so much trouble. Haha!

Zeze [00:52:07] It’s like, I don’t like

Jameela [00:52:09] I think we are both in deep but, hang on one second Zeze. I do think at some point we are also hoping, I believe from what following your work closely, we are hoping for people to level up. We’re not saying people are just like, we’re not writing people off. That sentence made you sound like you are writing people off.

Zeze [00:52:24] I hope they do but for my own, but for my own mental health, I cannot go around thinking that they are going to be this, this high expectation of, “Oh, they shouldn’t do this, they shouldn’t do that.”

Jameela [00:52:35] Well it’s because society is set up for them to fail, right? Look at pornography, look at music, look at the teachings of the world, like the way that they were raised. Like, so I do have like, immense empathy for men in that way where I’m just like, if I actually like, especially from talking to my boyfriend and talking to like, or my guy best friends. I live with all men and listening to them, this is not me being like, “Oh my God, I’m just like, a guy’s girl. And I’m not like, I don’t really understand women. They’re just drama.” Predominantly my women, my friends are women. I just happen to live with a lot of men, and I’ve really like, I’ve been very lucky to be privy to very intimate conversations about what it is that they’ve seen, what it is that they’ve been told, what it is that they were looking at and told to look at what they learned from that, how much they’ve had to un program themselves from so many things that they’ve learned that were, that were unhelpful to them emotionally and unhelpful to their ends with women.

Zeze [00:53:28] Right.

Jameela [00:53:29] And these aren’t like sort of like simp men. These are, you know, these are men who are very comfortable in their masculinity, etc., and they live very powerful lives, etc. But they’ve explained to me what they’ve seen. And I’m like, if I had seen all of that, if I’d understood that as the way of the world, if I’d been told that repeatedly, if that had also been reaffirmed to me by the opposite sex’s behavior for the people who enable that.

Zeze [00:53:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:53:51] I’d be like that. I’d be like that. I feel that way when I meet a child star who’s a prick. I’m just like

Zeze [00:53:58] Right.

Jameela [00:53:59] Of course you’re a prick. I would be a prick.

Zeze [00:54:01] Why wouldn’t you be? Yeah. But that that’s that’s how I am. That’s why people think when I say I don’t expect anything of them, it’s because, like you’re saying, of all the things that they have to deal with or go through. It’s like, what you expect of men, it’s not even realistic. Like, it doesn’t make sense, so just lower your expectations a little bit. You won’t get disappointed. That’s how I, I, and like you said, I’ve got so much, close male friends that will tell tell me the realness. Or, you know, they’ll come on the phone to me and they will talk to me about their relationships or how difficult it is maybe communicating with their girlfriend or their partner, or how they feel like maybe their partner is not listening to them, you know what I mean? But when I when they say it to somebody else, and I sound like I’m doing, “Aw they’re so lovely,” but it is all of these things that I hear from my male friends that puts everything else into perspective. And I’m like, yeah, that is not. Yeah, that’s probably not realistic.

Jameela [00:54:51] Either way I think you’re just trying to show the world that there’s there’s no damage that should be done by someone just saying their opinions and having their opinions be subject to change. And I think that’s something that’s very healthy and brilliant about you, is that whether people agree with you or not, you are a living example of someone who’s refusing for it to be stigmatized. For someone, especially a woman, especially a black woman, especially a dark skinned black woman, to just be like, “Oh, this is what I think about this. I’m open to changing my mind, but this is what I think. What do you think?” And it not being this massive fuck off deal. And I really appreciate it.

Zeze [00:55:27] Yeah.

Jameela [00:55:28] Something I want to talk about just before we go because I know I’ve had so much of your time, and I’ve, I’ve loved talking to you.

Zeze [00:55:33] And I have enjoyed it.

Jameela [00:55:34] This is a quick gear change, but I guess so much of this has been geared towards, you know, what you want young women to, I guess, learn or be inspired from by you, but you’re worried about the way that young women pressure themselves to have everything sorted at a very young age.

Zeze [00:55:48] Yeah.

Jameela [00:55:48] So can you explain your feeling?

Zeze [00:55:50] Yeah, I just recently online I’ve seen some conversation about, you know, “I’m 25 and I haven’t got this and I’m, I feel like I’m, I’m getting to 30, you know, I haven’t got kids. I’m not married. I don’t have the love of my life.” I saw a tweet the other day, this girl was like, “I can’t believe I’m going to be, she’s not even turning 30, and I haven’t got a child and I’m not married yet.” And I was just like, and she was really sad about it. And there was like loads of quote tweets of girls going, “Yeah, me too.” Like what? And I was like, “Oh my gosh, like, why?” And I felt like that at 25, I felt like, “Oh my gosh, why haven’t I got my life together?” And the reason why I’m so like on it is because now I’m 34, and I realize looking back at 25, like, what was I thinking? Why was I putting so much pressure on myself? I didn’t even know myself. I didn’t even know what I like, didn’t even know who I like, didn’t even know what type of person I like, what type of character, you know? I mean, and then as you go through life, your experiences change, it changes you and how and what how you look at life. I’m 34 now, and I think to myself, I feel so sure, like sure in myself, what I like, what I don’t like and I still got time to grow. So I think knowing that now, I wish when I was 25, I just enjoyed my time and I just didn’t put so much pressure on myself and I enjoyed it may be up until this age and learned along the way, and I have, but I just remember at 25 crying a lot and thinking, why haven’t I got my life together? And that’s why I empathize with a lot of these women. Because when I was 25, I kind of didn’t know what was happening in my life because the acting wasn’t working out. So it was like, what am I actually going to do now? Because this is I’m taking a whole new gear change. So for me, it’s like, you just have to keep going and you have to experiment and you have to do trial and error. And 25 is not old at all. Like it’s not even half of your life. Even if I live to like 80, I haven’t even done half of my lifespan yet. So, you have the time. And I just think people need to not look at other people online. And I know it’s really hard to not to do that because you’re seeing your friends and your peers, you know, they think

Jameela [00:57:54] So like, Zendaya is like 21 and like all these other people like so.

Jameela [00:57:57] But also, sorry to cut you, not even people like famous people, like their actual mates now, like, I go on like TikTok and I’ll see like a 25 year old like, “Just opened my second salon,” and I’m like, “Huh?? 25 and you opened the salon.” Got my new house, and there’s like every post is like a key of a 25 year old dude, like holding a key with a new building heights. And like, that’s great for her, but it might not be the case for you. And that’s totally fine. That’s totally, and I think when I was growing up, that was the only people I had to look at, maybe like, you know, Aliyah who was, but she felt so far away, so it didn’t feel like I needed to achieve what she was achieving, if that makes sense. But now, Jessica, who’s in my class at uni, has got a whole nail salon going on. Of course I’m going to feel like I’m behind, so it is, it’s really difficult.

Jameela [00:58:48] I was, the thing with famous people was just the fact that our industry, like when I was growing up, everyone famous was like 30, 40, 50, even if they’re playing teenagers in a TV show, they were like some 38 years old, you know, just had a, had a shave. So, it was around the age of like, so it was around the period of, like Britney Spears that there was like a real shift immediately towards like, “Oh, wow, youth really sells.” And suddenly everyone had to become so young. We became obsessed with like wildly successful teenagers and like, Jennifer Lawrence being a teenager and being worth like $20 million. And, you know, like we have high end brands that only adults can afford being modeled by 19 year olds. You know, there was a, we’re so youth obsessed that there’s this kind of like subliminal programing that’s telling everyone in their 20s and 30s and 40s, you are fucking up because look at this person that we have chosen out of millions to leverage.

Zeze [00:59:43] Mhm.

Jameela [00:59:43] And and I was one of those people. I was 22 fucking shot straight out of the gate, couldn’t have had more fucking opportunities, more everything. And like, I was used as like a tool of like, “She’s killing it.” And I can tell you that high success at an age where you have no idea who you are or what to do with it, I squandered all the money. I messed up my mental health. I worked so hard and didn’t sleep and didn’t take breaks to a point of complete, literal nervous breakdown and becoming suicidal at 26. Like I wish now that I’d lived in, it’s like the what was it? The tortoise and the hare? Like, I wish that I had moved slower, and now I’m trying to move as slowly as I can because I’m in Hollywood, whereas I wanted like, you’ve got Marvel and I’ve got The Good Place, I’ve got all these other things like the all the opportunities are fucking flying at me. And I’ve just been like, I’m not doing this again because I’m going to go crazy because it’s too much and there’s so much pressure. And no one ever talks about the late nights crying when you’re trying to start your own business. I’ve had my own business before and I

Zeze [01:00:44] I was literally going to say that.

Jameela [01:00:45] It was so horrific. It was so horrific. And you get sued and blackmailed and like, employees are nightmares.

Zeze [01:00:53] But again no one shows that again, because again, all the people, they just show the end result. So you’re seeing it’s like

Jameela [01:00:59] The highlight, yeah.

Zeze [01:01:01] Yeah, it’s like when, you know, Kim Kardashian got in trouble the other day for saying, “Just work hard, that’s all you have to do.” And it was like, no one’s saying that she doesn’t work hard. And I said this, I said, “No one’s saying that she doesn’t work hard because there’s obviously an element of hard work that she’s had to do to get to here. But the problem is we don’t see it, so all we’ve seen is just the niceness and the nice pictures and stuff like that. And that’s with everyone, like, you know, the people, we don’t see the “Oh, you know, this didn’t work out this time or this went really wrong this time.” And, and I think content creators are getting better at doing that now because people want to see the process of it and how you got to to your end goal. But a lot of these young people are just thinking, you know, all they need to do is have a high following and, you know, and, you know, get a BBL and they’re good to go and they’re going to get a PLT deal. And it’s like it doesn’t work like that. So for me it’s like especially when like young people come to me, “I want to do this, I want to do that, I want to do.” Everyone wants to now be a vlogger. Everyone wants to now do podcasts. Everyone wants to be a YouTuber, a TikToker. And that’s great, but it’s like.

Jameela [01:02:01] Well, your, well, I guess your answer is like, “Great, well, start now, and in eight years you might have a shot.”

Zeze [01:02:07] Right.

Jameela [01:02:08] And no one wants to hear that.

Zeze [01:02:10] But that’s the truth.

Jameela [01:02:11] When people look at me I’m like, yeah, I’ve been chatting shit since I was 22, and I’m 38 in like three weeks, you know, like, it’s it it’s a long, hard road full of people who fuck you over. You fuck yourself over. You make terrible mistakes that no one warned you about. It’s so scary and legally exhausting and emotionally exhausting.

Zeze [01:02:35] Sometimes lonely as well.

Jameela [01:02:37] So fucking lonely. Lonely, lonely. So lonely. And, I think it’s I, I love that you’re saying this. I think it’s really important. And I think that, like, we are starting to come to more of a collective consciousness of this. We are starting to look at girlboss as like a crazy, toxic capitalist lie. And I think that we are starting to and boss bitch etc. It’s like, I do think that it’s really important for women to be empowered and self-sufficient and not reliant on men so that they can feel, they can have their freedom and safety. But I also think that within reason, men being told to go towards that bugatti, you know. Men being told like to have this type of house, this type of car, rather than build their mental health and build their friendships.

Zeze [01:03:15] Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [01:03:16] And focus on their third era, you know. And as to like how they’re going to set up their emotional life and their, you know, their community, etc. We’re all just fucked. And I’m I’m glad that you say that about 20 somethings because you and I both went through it in our 20s, and we might have had different experiences in that I had that immediate success. You were not handed that immediate success. But we were both feeling fucked regardless, so it shows

Zeze [01:03:43] 100%.

Jameela [01:03:44] Goes to show that it’s not the circumstance. It’s just

Zeze [01:03:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [01:03:47] Your 20s are so hard. You just have to figure out just your bit.

Zeze [01:03:51] And that’s what you should use your 20s for.

Jameela [01:03:51] Your 30s by the way are also about figuring yourself out because now it’s time. You’ve figured out with your 20s what you don’t like and yeah, it is funnier. But now you figured, or you take yourself less seriously, but you’ve figured out in your 20s what you don’t like, but now in your 30s you have to double down. And that’s actually really hard and actually set those boundaries that you thought you wanted in your 20s. And that comes with, like, you know, a little bit of difficulty, so I’m not saying it’s a cakewalk in your 30s. It is easier, but in your 20s you are basically still a child. And I had no idea. When I was 21, I was like, “I am a woman.” And now at 38, I’m like, “I am becoming a woman soon”

Zeze [01:04:29] That’s why whenever I see like like the young girls and like, “I’m 25 and I’m this”. I’m like, “You’re actually a baby.” Like you’re, you’re trust me, you’re a baby.

Jameela [01:04:38] Yeah.

Zeze [01:04:39] I remember when I was like 23 being like, “I just want to have, I want to be married with three kids by the time I’m 25.” And I’m like 34, can I even get a bloody text back when I want to text back? Can I? No. Hah! But do you know what I’m saying?

Jameela [01:04:56] This has been a pleasure.

Zeze [01:04:56] Thank you.

Jameela [01:04:57] I think a lot of people would have presumed you and I wouldn’t like each other.

Zeze [01:05:00] You think?

Jameela [01:05:00] I think, like, publicly. Because we’re both so divisive. I feel like people would think that we would clash. I really like you. This is our first proper conversation, and I’m so happy that it’s documented. But I hope we talk more, and I hope we do things together.

Zeze [01:05:17] Yes.

Jameela [01:05:17] I think we have a similar intention. I think we have a similar sloppiness. Haha!

Zeze [01:05:23] What I think is great about us though, is that although we’re similar, we definitely have different opinions.

Jameela [01:05:28] Oh and very different backgrounds.

Zeze [01:05:29] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. So it just, which makes it even better.

Zeze [01:05:33] Well yeah, we’ve disagreed, we disagreed on this podcast, you know.

Zeze [01:05:36] Yeah!

Jameela [01:05:36] But it’s just been all love and and respect.

Zeze [01:05:39] We’re proof that you can disagree and still have a great conversation.

Jameela [01:05:42] It doesn’t have to be a fucking, well I mean this is what I always say and this is what I’ll end with was just like disagreement and debate is the foundation of democracy.

Zeze [01:05:49] 100%.

Jameela [01:05:49] And that’s what Democrats seem to have forgotten. And that’s what liberals seem to have forgotten is that, like, for us to have a difference of opinion and fight for that and be allowed to have a difference of opinion is the foundation of everything we’re fucking fighting for. It’s freedom, so

Zeze [01:06:04] Yeah.

Jameela [01:06:04] Are you for freedom or are you not for freedom? Because I’m forcing a cult-like agreeance into whatever the new, updated version of what we agreed to, quote unquote, it’s simply not possible to enforce that and then still call ourselves liberals because

Zeze [01:06:19] Right, yeah.

Jameela [01:06:20] We’re fighting against the freedom to be wrong, the freedom to feel differently, the freedom to question the system. And so I think that that’s something that I feel uncomfortable with. I sense that you do, too, and I appreciate you speaking your mind. And and here’s to more women like yourself. And here’s to anyone who’s at work or at school who’s opinionated and gets told, “Shut up” because they’re annoying, knowing that actually it can lead to more fulfillment, more closeness. I feel so much more immediately close to you for the fact that we’re both just so open. I feel like all of my friendships, I make my friendships so fast because I’m being completely authentic and I’m like, if you find me grating or annoying, then great, then you know I’m not your cup of tea and then we can not waste eachother’s fucking time.

Zeze [01:07:01] And I get to be myself. I get to yeah, there’s nothing to the people at the young like if you like you said, if you’re listening, you’re young or whatever is so freeing. Like, I don’t have to pretend to be anyone because everybody knows who they’re getting when they they se me. And even back to the career thing, it’s taken me longer, but any jobs that I get, I don’t have to now do another version of myself. They hire me because they know, okay, Zeze’s going to give

Jameela [01:07:29] Same

Zeze [01:07:30] She’s going to say what she knows.

Jameela [01:07:32] Also something that’s interesting I think if you’re a teenager in your early 20s and you think that the worst thing on earth is being disliked, I can tell you when you get old, it’s really nice to know just who fucking likes you and who doesn’t like you because you also start to understand how many people you yourself dislike. And that doesn’t ruin other people’s lives. They’re okay if you dislike them, so it’s okay if they dislike you. It’s nice to have a clarity around it. You don’t like everyone why the fuck are you hoping that everyone likes you? That’s ridiculous. I’m so happy now to have clarity around who does and who doesn’t like me. I feel happy for them and I feel happy for myself.

Zeze [01:08:03] 100%.

Jameela [01:08:04] And listen, at the end of the day, whether people like you or don’t like you, you’re an entertainer. You are never not entertaining and so you’re doing your fucking job. You are always showing up and bringing energy and insight, and you start some really interesting conversations, so I appreciate you for one.

Zeze [01:08:20] Thank you so much.

Jameela [01:08:21] Thank you for coming here today.

Zeze [01:08:23] No, thank you for having me. It’s been brilliant. It’s actually been, it’s almost been like therapy.

Jameela [01:08:28] Haha! Great! That’s literally the point of the podcast.

Zeze [01:08:30] It’s therapy.

Jameela [01:08:32] I have a nice day, my love.

Zeze [01:08:33] Thank you. You too, take care.

Jameela [01:08:39] Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimmie Gregory, and Amelia Chappelow. And the beautiful music that you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. And if you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. It’s such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at I Weigh we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording, sharing what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners.

Listener [01:09:13] I weigh being talented. I weigh being intelligent and curious and trying to learn more and more about different things every day. I weigh a lot of good things, and another thing that I weigh is pride and confidence for the woman that I am and the woman that I am becoming.