EP. 224 — Reflecting on My Abortion with Grace Campbell

Jameela: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to an episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, a podcast against shame. Today’s episode is such an important chat. It’s such an important conversation. It’s one that’s not had enough. And so I thought I would boldly have it for you on this podcast with my excellent guest, Grace Campbell.

She’s been on this podcast before, but always as a comedian and a writer and actor and director. She’s a total superstar, but this time she’s on as a woman talking to other women and anyone else who can get pregnant about the intricacies and the complicated side of abortion, right? And when people like me talk about abortion, I don’t know if you know, but I had one when I was 26 and it was tough as they always are but generally something that I looked very quickly upon as an incredible relief that massively, uh, saved my life in every single way that it could. And not everyone is lucky enough to [00:01:00] have such a straightforward experience of abortion. And so for Grace, it was hard. It was hard. It was full of complicated feelings. She didn’t feel that instant relief that I felt. She didn’t feel that instant freedom. And not everyone does. But because we’re fighting so hard for our right to abortion, there is this terror of saying anything negative about it in case that is weaponized by the people who are trying to take away our reproductive rights. And while I understand why that happens, that’s very unhelpful sometimes because then it means that this important conversation doesn’t get had. And as an abortion rights advocate, it was imperative for me to make sure that I include this side of the story when we talk about abortion.

And I don’t think it harms the movement, and I talk about that later in this episode. I think it’s just important that everyone has a voice. And it’s not to say that Grace regrets having the abortion because she certainly [00:02:00] doesn’t, but it wasn’t a straightforward path to that relief. And it’s not just because Abortion is difficult. It’s not just because pregnancy is hard. It’s also because of the scenario that she was in, the situation she found herself in, and the people who were around her and what they did and didn’t do. And so in this episode, we talk about all the feelings of pregnancy and then ending a pregnancy and what doctors get right and wrong and what friends get right and wrong and what the person who gets you pregnant gets right and mostly wrong. And it’s just a warm chat between two friends who went through this thing together. Uh, I was there from beginning to end and I, I will tell you this, that it is not a completely perfectly structured chat. We didn’t do a pre interview. I just asked her a few days ago if she would be up for having this very personal conversation in a way that she hasn’t yet publicly because everyone’s got a fucking angle and I just didn’t want an angle. I just wanted to let her speak about the raw truth of the [00:03:00] situation. And so, it’s a very intimate chat between us that we are letting you in on, and it’s a real joy to have someone on who’s so raw, who’s so authentic. I don’t think I’ve ever met a more raw public figure than Grace Campbell, and may she always be able to hold on to that because it feels very sacred to be in the company of, given how fake everyone is online and in this industry.

She’s got a fantastic show called Grace Campbell’s On Heat. It’s a stand up show that she’s gonna be touring in Edinburgh Festival for the first two weeks and then she will go on in October and November to be touring it and will end in the Hammersmith Apollo. So definitely go and check her out on Instagram and definitely go and see the show live. It is phenomenal. But for now, here is the beautifully articulate and honest, Grace Campbell.[00:04:00]

Grace Campbell, I feel like all we do is record podcast episodes together. I think we should get our act together and start one at last, seeing as all we do is fucking talk to each other with microphones. How are you? Welcome to I Weigh, again.

Grace: Welcome back to I Weigh.

Jameela: Yeah. I think you’ve been on like four times now. This is, this is the record. This, you are now officially the person I’ve had back the most times.

Grace: What do you think that says about you or me?

Jameela: Um, I think it says I’m obsessed with you and you’re a simp for me.

Grace: I think that’s really accurate.

Jameela: So do I. I think it’s bang on.

Grace: I think that’s so spot on.

Jameela: So at the end of last year, you had an abortion. I was there with you from when you found out you got pregnant and then you went and had the abortion and then I was there for the aftermath, at least the, you know, within the first few weeks of the aftermath. I watched you go through that experience. It was very different to the experience I had of having an abortion, [00:05:00] and I’m someone who’s super, super vocal about mine, and I can only from experience talk about what I know, and your experience being so different meant that I felt like it was very important to make sure that we also tell that story. We have to tell all of the stories of abortion, uh, even the ones that aren’t as, not to say mine was celebratory, but it was filled with relief and almost only relief after the first month. The first month was just hideous and I felt so suicidally depressed and then was terrified that that was the feeling of regret, but later learned that my estrogen was just dropping off a cliff.

Now I prepared you for that bit, but I couldn’t prepare you for what then you were going to go on and feel and it was really intense watching that. And I think it’s amazing that you have turned this experience into a public piece, into public writing, into a public show for other people who also had that same experience. You don’t really have a lot of places to turn for a similar story [00:06:00] and that story is the fact that yours was not a linear experience of relief, right? You

Grace: No, it really wasn’t and like it’s it’s really interesting because what you just said that made me like feel really sad also just because it was it must have been really horrible for everybody else to watch because it, I do feel like I had a really really intense reaction to it and my impression of abortions before that had been like yours, like my friend who’s living with me, like, like loads of my friends who’ve had them, it’s really intense at the time and then you do just suddenly click and then you’re over it, and that’s what I say about that, like, January, February period after my abortion, I was like, surely, I should be over it by now, like, I understand the chemical side of like, what had happened, you’re, you know, your body’s like doubling in hormones every day and then suddenly it drops. It’s like a drug come down. But what I didn’t understand was this like emotional pain that I was going through of like feeling so, so alone. And there are two things I really wish I could have changed. Well, one, I wish I could have never gotten pregnant. [00:07:00] I wish I’d have not let that man that I’d been having sex with, like take the condom off. I wish I’d have maybe like, I don’t know. I wish he’d have told me that he probably knew that he come, came inside me and I should have just taken the morning after and that would have all, none of this would have happened but the second thing that I wish hadn’t happened was I wish I hadn’t let that doctor persuade me to do the medical termination because you were sort of telling me to get it like sucked out which is far less traumatic you like get it taken out of you all at once, like an operation.

Jameela: Yeah, I would say that it’s not always accessible to everyone because sometimes it’s expensive or sometimes they don’t want to do it, but if anyone ever had the option, trying to have it done surgically means that you’re under anaesthetic, you go to sleep pregnant, you wake up, you are not pregnant anymore. And so at least you don’t have this like visceral trauma and I think a big part of why my experience was different to yours, obviously with different people, different experiences, but I do think a big part of why mine was so different to yours is because I never had to deal with the reality or the [00:08:00] trauma of, of,

Grace: Well, you have to see it. It’s like

Jameela: Seeing it and ending it. Yeah.

Grace: Do you remember when I was in LA and it was Thanksgiving and we were like sitting on your sofa and I just, and this was like, a month afterwards and I looked down and I was wearing my like favorite Levi’s jeans and I looked down and it was like, like blood was sort of not just like a period like, like shorts on my jeans and I was like, Jameela, we need to go downstairs and there was so much blood and it was like an abnormal, I mean, I lost so much blood in that six week period. I was bleeding the whole time I was wearing fucking nappies. Do you remember when you brought me the nappies on?

Jameela: I do. Hahaha!

Grace: Honestly, you and James had to go through so much with me.

Jameela: Um, it was a pleasure and it was an honour and I’m very glad. that you were with me during that period, because I think you needed parents and while James and I don’t want to be actual parents, I think we’re quite good at taking in people during [00:09:00] a, yeah, we’re good in a, we’re good together in a crisis, um, but I, yeah, I, I viscerally remember the nappy, uh, and I think that we, our friendship expanded significantly during those weeks.

Grace: Yeah.

Jameela: Because it was so intense and bonding.

Grace: It was so bonding and it was also so like nice having you and having James as like a positive male energy during that time because a lot of the men who had been dealing with it around me had not been amazing.

Jameela: No and and this is an important part of this story, right, because and I think I want to get to that eventually but I think that, um, if anyone’s been reading like Grace’s pieces or heard her on interviews talking about it, uh, you may not have been privy to the full story, right? Because there are editors or there’s time, um, constraints when it comes to both written pieces and interviews. And [00:10:00] so I think what I wanted today was to be able to give you the space to, without judgment or editing, be able to tell as much of the full story as you feel comfortable. But in short, basically, when you wrote about the abortion for the Guardian, it was a fucking stunning piece that everyone should read and we’ll make sure to link to it with this episode, but it’s it sort of only talks about the trauma of the actual abortion and how horrific that was. But it doesn’t also talk about the contributing factors, which are important to know because other people need to know how to support people having an abortion and what those people actually need. And there’s not enough discourse about that. It’s always just this thing that a woman goes through on her own and no one talks about the impact that you can make as the support system or not being a support system.

Grace: Yeah. And I, in the show that I’m writing, cause that’s the thing in, in that piece, you know, like they just didn’t want it to be about like men. They wanted it to be more focused on sort of the nuances of abortions, but the show is much heavier [00:11:00] on the role of a man in this situation, because like, I didn’t get pregnant by lying in bed on my own one night. I got pregnant because a man didn’t want to wear a condom because he felt that, like, his pleasure in that moment was, I don’t know, more important than, like, risking what might happen. I also think he, and a lot of other men that I’ve, like, spoken to in this period, up until now, because I think he’s learned his lesson now, but saw abortions as like, not that deep, like akin to taking the morning after pill. And what, so then what happened was I got pregnant, obviously. I didn’t know whether or not to tell the person who’d gotten me pregnant because I didn’t know him first of all. And I didn’t know like how he was going to deal with it. And my friends were really concerned that he was going to make it worse. And I decided to tell him because I felt like It was the right thing to [00:12:00] do.

Jameela: And also I think you wanted him to know the ramifications of a decision like the one that he made.

Grace: Yeah, totally. Well, at this, at the time, Jameela, I was so naive. I think at the time that wasn’t even con, I wasn’t even conscious of that on reflection a hundred percent. I wanted him to know what he’d done and that like, this had happened to me because of him. It wasn’t like, you know, and, and listen, it wasn’t, it also wasn’t that like, it was a, I agreed to take the condom off as I have done on other occasions in my life. It was a bit messy. It was like, it was not, I’m not completely blaming. I have to take responsibility for that situation.

Jameela: Yeah, but just not by yourself.

Grace: Totally. And, and, and that’s what like I then ended up having to do. Well, he was kind of good for a period. And then I think, and this is what I say to men now, I think he felt like once it was done, he’d done his job, and actually, the worst part was yet to come, and he wasn’t there for that, and that made the like, pain of what I was having to go through, and the like, [00:13:00] feelings of isolation, and the ways that I felt about my body during that time, it’s so intimate, having an abor and having an abortion over that long period of time, like, having to wear a nappy, it’s like, it’s fucking degrading, like, being on stage, having to be this like, powerful, like, woman, who like, doesn’t give a fuck what anyone thinks about her while I’m wearing a nappy, it just felt so, so, like, contradictory.

Jameela: Can I just say, I loved wearing a nappy after my abortion. I just, like, it was just, it was actually hard to go back to normal underwear.

Grace: I’m a thong girl. I’m a thong girl.

Jameela: Yeah, you see, that’s something that’s of your generation because I really just, I really would just wear, honestly, if I could have like a polo neck nappy that just goes all the way from my chin to my to my toes, I would wear one.

Grace: Notice. I feel like the blankets in your house are quite like polar bear nappy.

Jameela: Everything, everything I have is really just

Grace: Polar bear nappy-coded.

Jameela: My life is nappy chic, nappy core. Yeah, sorry, you were saying.

Grace: I, so what I was saying was [00:14:00] that I feel that the one thing I want to communicate now to men is that, I’ve got this joke in the show which is, um, men treat abortions a bit like how they treat going to the nail shop with their girlfriend. It’s like they’ll happily pay for it but they want no involvement in like what decisions you make or how it’s done or whether or not you like it afterwards. And it’s like that’s, that’s sort of how they see it. It’s like for women, having an abortion, it’s like a woman’s thing. And what, what, like, I want men to know is that by rule of thumb, if you are insisting or like asking to not wear a condom with someone and that person is then potentially going to get pregnant, you have to follow through with the aftermath and consequences of that decision. If you’re not willing to do that, wear a fucking condom. Grow up and wear a fucking condom. And that’s like, that’s it. You have got to sign up for whatever might [00:15:00] happen, and if you don’t do that, you’re, you’re a, like, shitty person, and one day, someone’s gonna write a show about it.

Jameela: And what’s the name of the show?

Grace: Grace Campbell is On Heat.

Jameela: Exactly.

That’s incredibly important. And I want to get into the ways in which you felt just purely about the abortion. But I also do, I really do want to spend some time focusing on what men can do right and what men get wrong, beyond just the conception mistakes that they can make, because it is, it’s, it’s just so, so important. And, um, the person that, uh, you know, I was dating when I got pregnant, just handled it as appallingly as possible and that definitely made the situation so much worse, whereas when I had a miscarriage, which is a different thing, but it’s still [00:16:00] the, it’s still the same, um, physical experience, essentially, when I was with James, the kind of care that James took of me was completely different and that meant that I got better so much faster and I emotionally recovered so much faster because I felt so much less alone and I think that that really highlighted to me, that’s what made me so fucking angry watching what you were going through was the fact that you didn’t have that support from anyone other than mostly your female friends and obviously a bit from James.

Grace: Yeah and I think it’s hard because you, I wish I could have in that time felt supported enough just by my friends, but because it’s so biological and because the man who’d got me pregnant had like fucked me through my abortion, like we’ve been seeing each other, it wasn’t like it was a sort of complete one night stand. It then felt like I’d been personally sort of rejected and abandoned in a time when my body was going through something like, so traumatic and intense, [00:17:00] and I found it really difficult not to take it incredibly personally, even though, now I look back, with hindsight, it wasn’t my fault. I was just trying to deal with it in the best way that I could have, and it was really hard. And like, I, I, I don’t hate him at all. Um, I, one of the things that the show is kind of reckoning with is like, I think this stuff has not been very well communicated to men, which is what I want to do now is really figure out the best ways to communicate to men what they should be doing. Like, I got with a guy a few months ago and I was telling him about what happened last year and he was like, oh, um, I got a girl pregnant a few months ago. And I was like, have you texted her, like, to see if she’s okay? And he was like, I texted her once, like, after the abortion. And I was like, can you just text her now, please? Like, just text her, seeing if she’s okay. And I remember in that moment thinking, I really wish someone had said this to the person who had [00:18:00] gotten me pregnant, because it would have meant a lot, like, in that period in January where I genuinely wanted to kill myself, it would have meant a lot if he’d have just reached out to me and said like, hey, I hope you’re okay. Like, how are you feeling? It was that sort of like, you know, like alienation abandonment that made it seem even more, it made me feel really weak that I was going through that, but like the guy who I got with a few months ago that had to say that to, not a bad guy, I think he just genuinely thought like he’d done enough. I think he thought you have an abortion. It’s like a bit of bleeding for a period of time, maybe you’re a bit like tired and sad, and then it goes, because I don’t know if we’ve like very well communicated to men and women, because look at the fact that like, I, there was nothing online articulating what I went through really until I wrote that piece. There was like one piece that had been written five years ago, which was a bit different, but like, I couldn’t find anything saying, like, how bad the grief can be, even if you wanted to have the abortion. And so I think, like, I’m not, I don’t think these men are terrible people. I just think, like, maybe they’re quite [00:19:00] ignorant. And now is the time for them to, like, learn and change up and not do that thing again. Like, I really, really hope that the man who got me pregnant will never make that same mistake again with someone else. That’s all I can hope for.

Jameela: And I think part of why there isn’t that much literature out there about the darker side of abortion is because there’s been such a long fight to even have access to abortion and obviously it’s being reversed in fascist countries all over the world, including the increasingly fascist United States of America. And so, the people who have fought for it have never wanted to give those who are trying to take it away any ammunition as to, uh, look, you know, as to their, you know, fear mongering tactics, you know, because there’s already so many fear mongering tactics and they say, like, you have depression for the rest of your life, you regret it forever, they, uh, hyperbolize, exaggerate, and, and straight up lie in order to terrorize people out of wanting or getting an abortion. And so I can see [00:20:00] the classic liberal, especially, mistake of them being like, let’s just not talk about it. Let’s just not say anything that gives them ammunition. And while I understand, especially as such a, um, a firm advocate for abortion, I can understand the logic of that. It then leaves women like you feeling totally lost, alienated, and like you’re broken in some way because you’re having this experience that no one else had.

Grace: Yeah, and it means that men think it’s a walk in the park. Like, that’s also why they get that idea because it’s very rare that like in media, in comedy, you know, I think of all of the different stand up routines I’ve watched about women having abortions and it’s just like, there’s, there’s no, like, it’s sort of, insight into, like, the emotional feelings afterwards. And so, like, it’s fair enough that people then don’t expect this to happen.

Jameela: That’s what I mean.

Grace: Yeah, but I completely agree with you. It’s just like, it’s been so interesting since that piece came out because I’ve had, I mean, I’m getting so much abuse from pro life people in America and they’re, they’re fun, they’re really funny. I, I, I really, I really actually am very amused by [00:21:00] them. It’s, it’s interesting how many people have inferred that my piece is me actually just claiming, just basically being pro life, because in saying that I was sad afterwards, that is, like, because, like, one person said that I was being haunted by the ghost of my dead baby, and I was like, no, I’m being haunted by the ghost of the man who got me pregnant, because he literally ghosted me, like, that is not

Jameela: Hahahaha!

Grace: I’m not being haunted by my dead baby.

Jameela: Oh, my God. Yeah, exactly. It’s exactly that, right? Is that then everyone’s left clueless. And I think that it’s just that we are becoming a society increasingly allergic to nuance. It just has to be one extreme or the other. And I think it doesn’t show a great confidence in the reason, in our conviction towards a women having the right to choose or people who are pregnant having the right to choose [00:22:00] if we need to erase the nuance of the experience. By now, we should all be fucking confident enough to know that even if it’s shit, even if it’s hard, even if someone has regret afterwards, it doesn’t mean that everyone shouldn’t access the choice and that’s why, as I said, I wanted you here because I, as an abortion advocate, think it is imperative that we include that nuance. I never want anyone to feel as alone as I saw you feel, and I want to talk about what that felt like. And I, and I want to, and, and, but also, like I said, you know, I wanted to include the extra part that I feel like didn’t get included in a lot of the narrative because it’s, it’s, it’s not just the fact that it is a fucking hormonal and physical tsunami of, of, of shit and hell, but also the support system really making or breaking your experience as we both went through. And so what was the most surprising thing that you felt throughout? [00:23:00] Did you feel regret?

Grace: Um, yeah, yeah, I did. I did. And like, yeah, I did. Well, I did. I felt regret because I felt so bad that I was like, what could be worse than this? I was just, it was so, it was just such a terrible, like, the way I felt was just, I really hope I never feel that way again. So for that reason, I did regret. I did have feelings of regret during that period, like January, February, because I was like, like, the way that I feel now, it’s not worth, like, anything, but I don’t feel regret now, and I’m really, really glad that I did it now, and I’m really obviously glad that I could do it now. And by, like, March, April this year, it started to lift, and I started to feel, like, I really wish it didn’t happen. I feel more regret for the fact, like I said, that like, I had unprotected sex with this man. That’s my biggest regret in this situation because I really do feel like this experience has changed me. And in some ways, like, for the [00:24:00] better. It will have changed, like, it will have made me much more resilient. It’s definitely, like, changed the way that I can empathize with people on various things. But I, I look at pictures of me from the week before I found out I was pregnant a lot. Because I, I feel like, like, I look at that and I was like, I was kind of a different person then. I don’t feel like the same person because I just think it’s altered a lot of, like, how I feel about myself and how I see the world. And in some ways that’s good, but in some ways it’s, like, made me incredibly cynical about men and about the the feeling that, like, can I ever really, like, love or trust a man, knowing that, like, they will never understand an experience like that. Like, they will never fully be able to understand it, as much as some men really try. It’s this huge imbalance of power, like, having a baby with someone, I worry that, like, I would just fucking despise them because of what you have to go through. They just get a baby, like, they don’t do anything, and then there’s a baby in their arms. And your whole body, [00:25:00] your ecosystem, is completely disrupted and is it ever the same again? I’m not sure. I’ve, you know, I’ve never done that. So I think that’s what it’s, and I’m coming out of it, but I definitely had like a deep, deep anger towards men during that really bad period cause I was just like, this is not fair. Like, this person has been able to dip in and out of this situation and then left me with the extreme consequences of his very flippant decision not to wear a condom. And it just felt so unfair to me. And then I had to, yeah, I’ve had to work really hard to like process that and not be as angry as I was.

Jameela: Um, for whatever it’s worth, every single new mother that I know, um, hates and wants to murder the father of their child because they’re so, they’re so angry and because it’s so unfair that they should have to go through this huge bodily, emotional, psychological upheaval and they’re fine. And even if they say it’s 50 50, even if the man is really like pulling his [00:26:00] weight or, you know, above and beyond, it’ll never be. It’ll never be enough and it’ll never be the same because he hasn’t had to go through this thing and then for people who breastfeed, it doesn’t end after the nine months, it goes on for another year or two years, um, this constant way in which you have to do this thing that the other person literally physically can’t do. And of course, it’s not their fault, but just doesn’t stop the resentment because resentment is just very natural. And so I would say that while I think it’s great, you’re processing it, um, if you do plan on being a mother, uh, that is never going to go away. And I imagine it’s also easier for me because I’ve never wanted to be a mother, so I,

Grace: Well, I never wanted to until I got pregnant. That’s what’s really strange.

Jameela: That’s interesting.

Grace: Um, and that’s what Holly, who, you know, one of my best friends said to me one night at Christmas when I was really sad and we stayed up till six in the morning just talking about it, and um, Holly said, but at least now you know, like, you now know that like, that is what you want one day. And that is definitely a positive in this situation, because I never thought that I’d, [00:27:00] I really have never thought about children before this, genuinely, hand on my heart. Like, I remember one of my friends told me that she was pregnant, like, not long before I got pregnant, and my reaction, because I thought it was a joke, was I said, oh my god, imagine. So I’d never thought about that, it’s just never been in my life plan because I think, I don’t know, I don’t know, I’ve really genuinely like not really given it much thought.

Jameela: But you’re also very young, so I don’t think it was probably

Grace: Thank you for saying that.

Jameela: Haha! You’re such an idiot. But you, you know, it’s not something that naturally, necessarily, normally occurs, you know, especially to people who are as busy uh, as you are. And so this is also around the age that your body starts to go tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, and I imagine that got accelerated by the whole thing.

Grace: I think so, and I, I just think it’s so, again, like, this is the other, this is where a lot of my other resentment for men comes from, because it’s just not fair that, like, they get this much longer like, [00:28:00] time privilege.

Jameela: Well, it’s forever. It’s forever. It’s literally, it can be the last dusty sperm that comes out of a 90 year old’s penis.

Grace: It’s not fair. It’s not fair. And like, now, I think that I am thinking about it more. But then I’m also thinking, God, I’m not ready for it. If I found an abortion that hard, and if I could be so wrong about like, who I get with in those situations, I don’t really trust myself yet to judge who would be a good person to have a child with. Um, but I just think it’s so unfair that like, once you get into your 30s, everybody starts talking about it in that way. Anyway, but I am still very young. But that is definitely one of the other things that’s really changed my perspective is like, realizing that I do want children, which I never did, and then I think that makes the pain and the loss at the time, it made it much worse, because I, because I, I’ve thought about it a lot, and now I’m, I think about it in a more comfortable way, but I’ve thought a lot [00:29:00] about like what my life would have been like had I decided to have that baby and that’s something that I now feel like I’m allowed to say because I’ve, I’ve had time to sort of process that but during that time in January and February I think that’s kind of why I wanted to be alone all the time because I just, it was just sort of, I was all I was thinking about um, yeah.

Jameela: And having so many people reach out to you and say they’d also had this really shitty experience post abortion where they felt very confused and emotionally fucked and alone, what did that make you feel?

Grace: It made me feel, like, sad. And also, like, I don’t know, I guess, like, proud of myself. It made me feel sad that so many people had to go through that because it’s, it’s just a very complicated thing. It’s, it’s so different to like, there are other sort of health issues that you go through that haven’t got this, like, massive weight of, like, you’ve also lost something that could have potentially been, like, a human. And so, uh, it makes me sad that so many people [00:30:00] go through that, but I felt, like, really proud of myself, I guess, like, in the week after, and it’s been nice, you know, knowing that I have managed to make other people feel better, and the amount of people who have messaged me saying, like, thank you so much, I’ve sent this to my boyfriend, who, like, didn’t understand why it was so difficult at the time, and like, I found it really hard to explain to him. I just think I want to help other couples or like I want to help men be better in these situations going forward. And I had a lot of really nice messages from men, so I’m really like happy about that.

Jameela: Can we talk about that moment where, you know, you open your piece in the Guardian, where you discuss that the person who’s scanning to check if you are pregnant for that first scan that you have told you to look at it, told you to look at the screen and see the fetus cause that was not what I went through. I was very much so not shown it until I asked to see it, but that was not the protocol. The protocol is that you are not supposed to show [00:31:00] someone who is coming in inquiring about an abortion, the image.

Grace: Yeah. You, you, you, if you ever show it to someone, you’re supposed to get their consent is the protocol. So, like, obviously they have to check , um, because they can’t just give you an abortion if you’re not pregnant, but he, he was like almost excited to show me, it was very strange, I, I, Holly was there and she was like at the end of the bed, and he, he was kind of like really like excited to show me it, like he was, I don’t know, like an excited science teacher, like showing me like the success of an experiment. And I so consciously was just like, do not cry, do not cry, do not cry, and looked at it, and he just kept it up for ages, so I was just looking at it. And then he was just talking about like, oh, look, that’s the fetus and that’s the embryo and then it went on for far, far too fucking long.

Jameela: Was this at an abortion clinic? Where was it?

Grace: It was in a [00:32:00] hospital.

Jameela: And he knew that you were going to have an abortion?

Grace: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I booked an abortion.

Jameela: That’s fucking crazy. That’s crazy that he’s like, there’s the brain, or there’s the heart, and this bit’s the bo, that’s so bonkers to me that I can’t even

Grace: Well, no cause he was like, I remember him saying, he was like, it’s too early to hear the heartbeat, is what he said. And now, it went on for too long, and Holly, God bless her, was just like, there, like, just sort of gently touching my foot, like, because I don’t think either of us really knew what to do. I think I was in complete shock because I’d been under the impression that that never happens. Then when my piece came out, I cannot tell you how many people in the UK, because I know this happens quite a lot in America because it’s a way to try and, like, convince people not to have abortions, and by the way, quite fucking effective, I will say. Like, it’s, it’s, it’s a huge form of manipulation. Um, but so many people contacted me saying that in the [00:33:00] UK that had happened to them, and that just depressed me so much, because it’s happening, like, right now, to someone, and that makes, because I do think that was what, that was, I didn’t finish my point earlier, but the two things I wish I’d have done is have the surgical termination and that the doctor hadn’t showed it to me. I think had those two things been different, had I not seen it coming out of me for so long and had I not seen a picture of it, I do think I’d have found it easier to get over. But in that month of January and February when I like wanted to kill myself, though it was just all I could see in my head, it was just like I’d lie in bed at night and it would just flash into my head like very intrusively. And it’s yeah, I mean, it’s effective. That’s what’s so fucked up.

Jameela: It is really fucked up and it’s so unkind. The only part of my abortion that was stressful was getting in and out of the clinic because I was being pelted with rosary beads.

Grace: Yeah, God, I remember you telling me that.

Jameela: While my friend shielded me on the way in. And so, that was the worst part of it. And then also, you know, worrying

Grace: Was that, that was in [00:34:00] London

Jameela: It was in London. Yeah, it was in, I think, West London. Um, and also the terror that the paparazzi were gonna see me going in or out because back then I still had shame around having an abortion and that is something that people still feel, they still feel like there is some sort of stigma. Obviously my, you know, we can see publicly that that has changed a lot. And I said that my abortion is the best decision I’ve ever made. And then I took it back and I was like, actually, that’s not true because I got a lot of backlash. I was like, that isn’t true. My fringe is the best decision I ever made. And then it was my abortion. And then everyone got even angrier with me. Um, but I stand by that. Uh, but it was the, it was the shaming on the way in and out and my own fear that someone, when someone would find out and I’ve made it a mission over the years to now destigmatize it as anything other than a huge life decision that you have to make.

Grace: Yeah.

Jameela: And it’s not a happy experience. It wasn’t fun for that first month but because I hadn’t had to see the fetus and because [00:35:00] I had that surgical abortion that meant that I honestly just had like a period and then I was done there wasn’t much, there wasn’t much for me to viscerally hang on to so my brain was able to move on. It is so dark and dangerous to um to plant that in people’s heads and I think that there’s something really sick about the idea of like, no you should make her face the decision she’s making. It’s like, why? It doesn’t change anything. That’s just a sentimental, arbitrary trope, cause fundamentally, it’s about what are the next few years, or 18 years, or 30 years of this person’s life going to be like because of this decision. Just allow them to make it from a practical place, not a fully sentimental moment based on what you’ve just seen. Does that make sense?

Grace: Yeah, totally, but I think it was really interesting. I remember saying to the guy who had gotten me pregnant that that had happened, and I could see that he, he could see I was really upset about it, but he couldn’t really understand, like, what, like, why I was so upset. I think he found it hard to understand why I found [00:36:00] that moment so hard, because he was seeing it in a much more, like, practical, but it’s not, like, fully formed yet, way. And, there’s something so, like, this is kind of where my thing about men comes back to, there’s something so biological about like, that experience where it’s like, inside you, like, I, I’m really glad that I did it, I’m really glad that I could do it, but seeing what was happening inside my body, it, I think that’s where this feeling of like, deep isolation came from, because I was like, well nobody else can understand how this feels for me apart from me, because it was very personal to me, even though it’s happened to so many other people, it felt so personal to me. So, it’s just, it’s the one thing, if I could have like, altered the process of my abortion, I would have done absolutely anything for that not to have happened. And I really, really, really like, want to do something to mean that anyone who does that to someone who’s knowingly having an abortion gets fucking sacked.

Jameela: [00:37:00] 100%. What advice do you have to the people around the person who’s pregnant? What advice do you have like versus via, you know, like your friends rallied around you, the person who got you pregnant, some of the other men in your life didn’t, but generally people around you. I’m sure I’ve probably made mistakes. I’m sure everyone probably made some mistakes or people got certain things right. What would you say are the things that you, you want people to do and things that you want people not to do?

Grace: One of the things I wanted to put in the piece that we couldn’t because of the word count was, I hated these like, sort of, like, what felt like very moonpig.com sort of like, lines. The people, haha!

Jameela: Oh god, I’ve been in America for 10 years, hearing moonpig.com just really lights up my soul.

Grace: Like, when a man sends me a real, like, moonpig.com message, I’m like, okay, thanks, moonpig.com, like, [00:38:00] but I hated when people would say to me, oh, it was just like a collection of cells, because that’s how I, that, that, began this feeling of me feeling really alone because I was like, okay, I’m insane then for having any form of emotion around it. And I know scientifically it is. And like, I understand why people say that, but it

Jameela: Yeah, but scientifically you also have oxytocin that is forming a bond between you and that cluster of cells. So they’re both science. Yeah.

Grace: Yeah, exactly. And it made me feel really, really like insane cause then I’d be like, okay, well I’m just like a fucking freak for feeling so sad about it. So that’s one thing. And then I think my friends were perfect. You were perfect. Everyone was perfect. Couldn’t have faulted anyone. Like literally all of my friends, that’s the whole point of my show is how absolutely unbelievably lucky I am to have people who do rally around me in that way. Um, but men, I think could be much more understanding and much more patient with the process of someone [00:39:00] who’s just had an abortion. And I know that lots of men really do try, but this is where it comes back to my key point, which is, it’s like, if you are, instigating this situation potentially happening, you better fucking stick around. Like, no matter in what form that means, you can be that person’s friend, you just have to be there for them in whatever way that they need because it made me so, so, it made me feel so bad about my body, that whole process, and then it made, and then being sort of abandoned by the person who got me pregnant also made me feel rejected and alone. And so I really just don’t want men to do that to people. I think there’s a way that you can be there for someone without, you know, feeling like you’re getting trapped into a relationship with them.

Jameela: Can you, can you tell any man listening what one feels like when pregnant. I know you were only a few months [00:40:00] pregnant, but your sensitivity goes sky high and your emotions are much harder to harness. Do you remember?

Grace: Yes.

Jameela: How everything felt?

Grace: Yes. I was, I was crazy. I was crazy. We were, we were all on holiday. We were all on holiday and Holly kept saying, you are acting crazy. Like she was like, you’re always crazy, but like there’s something you’re not okay cause I kept crying. I was crying so much like, a really abnormal amount. Um, and then also on reflection, it’s like, it was so obvious. My boobs had doubled in size. Like we were on this holiday and I was wearing this dress that had like a month before me fit me perfectly and my boobs were so big and everyone on the holiday kept mentioning it and it’s like, obviously I was pregnant, I’m such an idiot for not realizing that I was pregnant because do you know how I found out I was pregnant? This is the, this is the funniest part of the story. I so didn’t know I was pregnant. I had sex with someone else. The condom broke, [00:41:00] right? So I went to get the morning after pill and the chemist said, when was your last period? And then I was like, oh my God. And then I went on my WhatsApp chat with my best friend, Anna, because that’s how I track my periods. I just say, period just came. And then I just go and check, like, when was the last period? And it was like ages ago. And then I was like, shit, and I said to the chemist, I was like, can I have a pregnancy test and a morning after pill? And he was like, no, that is not how it works. So then I called Holly and she was like, just do a pregnancy test, and then if you’re not pregnant, you can go back and get the morning after pill. So I like did this pregnancy test, and then it was positive. And so I was like, okay, I guess I don’t need the morning after pill.

Jameela: I did not actually know that story.

Grace: Did you not know that?

Jameela: No, I didn’t know that story. That is the most you way of finding out your

Grace: It was so, but that’s how I mean

Jameela: It’s so Kevin and Perry. Like, it’s so shocking.

Grace: I was so shocked because I’d literally just gone to get the morning after pill. I had not thought. [00:42:00] And this is again like, where I’m like, angry, but I’d thought, well, I didn’t wear a condom with that man. Cause I wear condoms religiously that I made a real exception that night to not wear a condom with him. And I thought, oh, he won’t have come inside me. Obviously he’ll have told me like if he’s come inside me. So I just assumed there was nothing to worry about. So there was no part in me that thought I was pregnant until that moment when the pharmacist was like, when was your last period? And then I was like, crikey, um, okay. So it was a real shock. Like it was a joke. I thought it was a joke.

Jameela: You know, I found out because I was having like a session of Reiki, which is some sort of, I don’t actually know how to describe it, some sort of spiritual healing hot hand shit, but like I’d gone to a Reiki specialist and she just went, she was just over my, had her hands over my tummy and I felt this like deep heat in my stomach and then she just went, Oh, I think you’re pregnant, darling. And I was like, [00:43:00] I’m not pregnant. I’m definitely not pregnant. And I’d taken the morning after pill. So, you know, weeks and weeks before. So I knew I wasn’t. I was like, maybe she’s picking up on some hormonal shift. And then that night I went and I couldn’t have been more than two weeks pregnant. But it showed up immediately on one of those early pregnancy tests. And I was like, fuck. A Reiki healer told me

Grace: Mad.

Jameela: That I was pregnant.

Grace: It’s funny, isn’t it? That was the other thing, I was saying this to my friend yesterday, but I remember when we were on holiday in France, on that holiday when my boobs were massive and I was acting insane, I kept sneezing, like, loads, and I was like, this is weird, it’s not hay fever, it’s September, and then I, yeah, I kept sneezing, and then when I found out I was pregnant, I googled it, and that’s, like, one of the earliest symptoms of a pregnancy, is, like, uncontrollable sneezing, because it does something to your, like, bronchi.

Jameela: Yeah, I had no idea. I learned that from you. Talk to me about the way it feels after the pregnancy’s over in those first few weeks because I think sometimes what I’ve seen before and I [00:44:00] think I saw with you is that your emotional behavior overwhelms the man.

Grace: Yeah.

Jameela: You know, and he just feels like you’re being too emotional. And I would love for someone to verbalize, what your brain feels like and how you’re processing information in the weeks in which your estrogen is diving off a cliff.

Grace: It was very sort of surreal because I was really busy, so I had my abortion on the sort of Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then that next weekend I was filming this film and which I was directing and was in. And so, I remember the first week, I was crying loads, and I was bleeding loads, and I was very, very dizzy. Um, but I was really busy, and was just had this sort of like, and then I had a huge crash after that shoot. And, all, the only way I can really describe it, is, you’re so sad, but in a way, I was sad, I was more sad once [00:45:00] the bleeding stopped, if that makes sense, like, I was emotional, I was very, like, I was finding it quite difficult to be completely in touch with reality, because my hormones just felt kind of crazy. I felt like I was sort of on drugs, like, and so I was finding it hard to think completely rationally. But it was definitely worse when it had all come out of my body and then something happened where I felt like, oh, it’s done now. I don’t know. I can’t explain it. I think maybe I felt like it’s not over while it was still coming out of me. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s making sense.

Jameela: I, I mean, first of all, it’s, uh, it does make sense because then I guess then you’re really grieving the reality of it while you’re still in the middle of something, there’s still a sort of level of adrenaline, I guess, in which you’re just still trying to get through that thing.

Grace: Yeah, because you’re still in like a fight or flight.

Jameela: And then once you’re like, It’s over, your body finally knows, you know, it’s, our bodies are so clever and our brains are so clever in that they don’t really let us fully fall apart while we’re still in the middle of something. That’s why it’s at the end of [00:46:00] a tour, you’ll get sick or at the end of, you know, getting funeral arrangements, et cetera, done, when you lose someone, that’s normally when the absolute madness of grief hits. Your brain can tell most of the time when you don’t have the space or capacity to fall apart. And so it actually makes perfect sense to me that once your body has finally stopped the process of release, that your brain goes, okay, you’re allowed to feel really fucking sad now.

Grace: Well, I don’t know, actually, having said that, I just remember when I was in New York, because like two weeks after my abortion, I had to go to New York to do my show. And I remember writing this list in one of my many notepads and I’ve still got it somewhere and I was writing a list of everywhere that I’d cried in New York and it would be like the CVS here, the CVS here, the bagel shop, like hot yoga, like I was everywhere that I’d publicly cry. I’d write it down just to like, remember,

Jameela: Yeah, you definitely, you cried in every single inch of my house. Like, there’s not a part of my house that you didn’t cry in.

Grace: I cried more than I’ve ever cried in my whole life.

Jameela: [00:47:00] Yeah, I’m amazed if you ever cry ever again after this. I think you’ve cried all the tears of your life, but I’m glad that you did because it’s very good. It’s very healthy to get it all out. And I think you, I think something I really commend you for, and I really hope other people have the privilege of being able to do this, of feeling free enough to do this, is the fact that you really allowed your grief to show. You didn’t cover it up in front of anyone. You couldn’t hold it in. And the ups and the downs, the highs and the lows of all of it were, you were very naked about with everyone that you knew. You totally soldiered through and you kept doing your work and you were still funny and, uh, incredibly strong. But you, but part of that strength was how much you showed your vulnerability. And I didn’t do that. I’ve never done that and I remember looking at you thinking, god, this is such a healthy person for the fact that you allowed yourself to grieve your grief and I hope that everyone does that because I think that’s a massive part of how you’ve been able to get to where you are so fast emotionally [00:48:00] post all of this trauma is the fact that you didn’t run from it. You didn’t feel ashamed of your grief. You didn’t feel like you had to hide that grief from the person who got you pregnant. You felt very free and confident to be like this is fucking fucked and this is shit and I feel like shit and I need help and support and that’s probably why everyone also knew to help and support you as much as you need. I think there’s a lot of people out there who go through this who soldier on and you know, feel like some sort of weird stigma around it. So don’t really reach out and don’t feel like they have the right to say, actually, I’m struggling with this and this is really fucking hard. And it doesn’t feel as relieving as Jameela Jamil said it did on her Instagram, um, so,

Grace: Fuck that girl.

Jameela: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Fucking bitch. Uh, so, so, I think a lot of those people, you know, don’t actually say, hey, I’m fucking falling apart here. And then the people around them maybe don’t know to jump in and support. And we knew that with you because you were so clear on it. I didn’t really get much support because I didn’t tell anyone, you know, that I was struggling at all. And I, I [00:49:00] really think that’s an important thing to say for people who know someone who’s going through an abortion, or for anyone who’s going through one or about to go through one, is just fucking let yourself feel all the feelings. Go all the way through. all the way through it. That’s the only way. It’s the Homeland tagline, isn’t it? It’s like, the only way out is back in. And so just, just sit in it, stay in it, grieve it fully so that you can fully let it go. And I know that you said that you are no longer in any place of regret, which is fantastic. Um, do you feel as though you are at a place of being able to let that go?

Grace: Um, not quite. No, because because I’m writing about it and like, so yes, I have healed significantly, um, from everything. I really have. And like, it doesn’t, it doesn’t have the same effect on me at all. But I don’t think I’m ready to close the chapter fully and well, it’s not even that like, you know, in a way that’s why I sort of wish that maybe this show was already [00:50:00] done because I feel like I could be ready to close the chapter if I wasn’t having to talk about it on stage every night. But I also think it’s going to take a little bit more time for me to be able to see men in the light that I would need to to be in a relationship with one of them again.

Jameela: So in short

Grace: If that makes sense.

Jameela: Yes, so in short, abortion very very tricky a very different experience for everyone a hormonal nightmare um, and rollercoaster and then massively what made this hard was the behavior of the person who got you pregnant and the behavior of some of the men in your life who didn’t make you feel seen. And I would say that felt like, at least from the outside, like a third of why it was so fucking hard.

Grace: 100%.

Jameela: And not to mention the man who showed you the fucking fetus. Men were a massive failure in this scenario for you.

Grace: I really think had I not seen it and had I had like the surgical abortion and had the man who got me pregnant been consistently there for me just in [00:51:00] like an emotional way, I really don’t think January and February would have been that the way the way that they were. It was a terrible, terrible, um, order of events that happened that were out of my control, but meant that it was so much worse than it needed to be.

Jameela: So anyone listening to this, don’t be that guy and don’t let your friends, don’t let your friends be that guy. If you know someone who’s gotten someone pregnant, make him text that girl and be there for her because she desperately needs him. And, and if he is not convinced of that, let him listen to this fucking episode. Grace, your show is amazing. Uh, you are going to Edinburgh in the next few weeks. The first two weeks of August, you’re going to be at Edinburgh performing this show, Grace Campbell’s On Heat. You are also then doing a tour when?

Grace: October, November, and December. UK, Ireland,

Jameela: And then you’re ending on the Hammersmith Apollo?

Grace: I’m ending in the UK on the Hammersmith Apollo. And then I’m going to Paris, Berlin, and Amsterdam.

Jameela: Amazing. On your pro life tour.

Grace: My pro life agenda.

Jameela: Ha ha [00:52:00] ha ha!

Grace: Should that be the new name of the show.

Jameela: It’s genuinely such a funny, vulnerable show. Today has really kind of given everyone the context, but I can’t tell you how special

Grace: But it’s really funny.

Jameela: And silly and funny this show is. This is, this was an episode to talk about the, I guess, the backstory parts that you don’t want to say on stage, because It’s sad.

Grace: Because they’re not funny.

Jameela: No, not funny. Um, but the show is hysterical and I’m so, so proud of you and I think it’s the best show that you’ve ever written and I’m really, really excited for everyone to go out and see it. Um, what’s the main thing you hope people take away from the show?

Grace: Um, that I’m incredibly hot, glamorous, talented, uh, well, the thing is, I’d love to say, I hope men take away everything I’m saying, but like, shows I’ve done so far, there are fucking like, so few straight men that come and watch me. I need to do some kind of a like, public outreach to get more straight men to want to come and watch me, but then I get that they don’t want to because they feel attacked because they’re such sensitive little babies. [00:53:00] Um, but I would love for, you know, people to bring their boyfriends. Maybe, maybe that’s the end.

Jameela: Okay, well, date night. Slightly awkward date night sorted. I think we need to be uncomfortable, we need to make everyone, we need to be uncomfortable, we need to make others uncomfortable, it’s the only way that people grow. Uh, Grace, thanks for coming on the show today and for being so unbelievably open and insightful. I am really proud of everything I’ve watched you go through from the minute you found out you’re pregnant all the way through to now. And, um, I remain in awe of your recovery journey from it all because I know it wasn’t easy.

Grace: Well, it wouldn’t have, I wouldn’t have gotten through it without you. So thank you for everything.

Jameela: Love you lots.

Grace: Love you.

Jameela: Love you more.

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode, I Weigh With Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimmie Gregory, and Amelia Chappelow. And the beautiful music that you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. [00:54:00] And if you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show.

It’s such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording sharing what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com.