EP. 191 — Ask Jameela Anything with Grace Campbell

Jameela [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to an Ask Me Anything episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil. Today I am joined by one of my favorite humans. She’s a really good friend of mine and she’s just one of the most ridiculous people I know, but also like weirdly wise for someone so young, and so I thought she could come here today.

Grace [00:00:32] Thank you for saying I’m young.

Jameela [00:00:32] That’s all right.

Grace [00:00:33] Been trying to get you to say that for ages. Hahaha!

Jameela [00:00:34] Hahaha!

Grace [00:00:34] Thanks for admitting it.

Jameela [00:00:34] Grace Campbell is here joining me today all the way from England. And we both put out a request for questions, anything you wanted us to answer. And so you sent in fucking loads of questions, and we’re going to do our best to answer everything from the very serious to the completely ridiculous. Let’s start with Grace, how are you?

Grace [00:01:01] I’m great.

Jameela [00:01:02] Yeah?

Grace [00:01:02] I’ve got three cans of La Croix in front of me so I feel really happy.

Jameela [00:01:07] You’ve been living with me for a week now.

Grace [00:01:09] I’ve been living with you for eight days, actually, and counting.

Jameela [00:01:13] And we’re still friends.

Grace [00:01:13] We’re still friends. I think it’s been really good.

Jameela [00:01:16] Yeah. I feel closer to you than ever, cause I didn’t know how it was going to go because we’ve never hung out more than four hours.

Grace [00:01:21] For those that are listening to this, Jameela is looking at me in the most intense way and she hasn’t blinked.

Jameela [00:01:25] I’m holding one knife to her.

Grace [00:01:26] She has not blinked for 7 minutes. She’s staring at me possessed.

Jameela [00:01:32] I am having a good time. James and Jamila are treating me well.

Grace [00:01:36] I wake up and Jameela’s at the end of the bed in the middle of the night, just staring at me. No I’m having a really nice time. You’re a wonderful person.

Jameela [00:01:44] Aww. I love you. And given that we’d only ever hung out for about three or four hours at a time, it was a bit of a risk, but actually, it’s been incredibly chill and fun.

Grace [00:01:53] It has been good.

Jameela [00:01:54] Yeah.

Grace [00:01:54] Yeah, apart from my slight…

Jameela [00:01:57] We don’t need to get into that. Hahaha! Okay, so one of the first questions that I want to start with is someone asking, what are your thoughts on keeping in touch with an ex?

Grace [00:02:08] Well, I would say, okay, so I’ve done all of these different variations of like breaking up with people and like keeping in touch, not keeping in touch and trying to like, not talk to them and never contacting them again. And I think in my experience, it doesn’t work.

Jameela [00:02:23] Why?

Grace [00:02:24] Because, well, it is totally dependent, but if there are any kind of, like unresolved feelings on either side, being in communication is only going to mean that that person who has unresolved feelings is not resolving those feelings on their own. So I kept in touch with my ex boyfriend for like a year afterwards and it meant that neither of us moved on and it was actually so weird, like we were

Jameela [00:02:47] And were you shagging?

Grace [00:02:49] Not for the first nine months, and I was seeing someone else. And then it was really weird. We actually kept in touch for a while after that and then we saw each other for a bit and then we ended it again. And then I remember this really weird moment, which I always think about because it was so weird because because we obviously went over each other while we were both seeing new people, but we were constantly talking to each other about these new people that we were seeing, but comparing the new people

Jameela [00:03:12] That’s really strange

Grace [00:03:12] We were seeing with, with our relationship with each other and like advising each other on how to get through stuff with these new people based on how we were, but also kind of being like, “But I want to be with you.” It was so odd and obviously that was a very specific experience.

Jameela [00:03:27] Hahaha.

Grace [00:03:28] I’ll never do that again, I don’t think because it’s slowed down the process of like healing from the relationship. So I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s the best thing. I think if you have children or dogs like you have to or pets, you have to keep in touch with them, which is unfortunate.

Jameela [00:03:41] I think it’s more a matter of how long after the breakup you can maybe reestablish a relationship with someone. I think staying in touch immediately after a breakup is incredibly fucking difficult because it means that the wounds never have a chance to heal. But I’ve definitely like a year or two or three years afterwards been able to reconnect with that person in a way where I know they’re in a separate relationship they’re really happy in, and I’m coming to fuck it up. No, and I’m in a happy relationship and we’re both happy for each other. And we both landed in really good places and recognized that actually our relationship was not necessarily the best thing for either of us. That for me has worked. But I definitely need like a solid year because I need to forget their genitals.

Grace [00:04:25] Yes.

Jameela [00:04:25] It’s so fucking crazy to be with someone who’s like, you have like, a vivid memory of their genitals.

Grace [00:04:31] Yeah.

Jameela [00:04:31] It’s insane to sit opposite them, haha. What?

Grace [00:04:33] Hahaha!

Jameela [00:04:34] What? It’s just that, I think it’s crazy that I can’t stop thinking about it, like, every time I blink I’m just like

Grace [00:04:40] I don’t think about their genitals, I think about their cum faces more.

Jameela [00:04:44] Hahahaha!

Grace [00:04:46] If I’m thinking about exes in that way, I’m not thinking about their dicks, I’m thinking about the strange, sad sounds that they make when they come.

Jameela [00:04:53] Did I tell you about the guy that I dated who was so posh that when he came, he said, “Hoorah!”

Grace [00:04:59] *Retches*

Jameela [00:04:59] Hahaha!

Grace [00:04:59] How dare you? That is awful.

Jameela [00:05:05] So disgusting.

Grace [00:05:05] That’s awful. And you dated this person as in

Jameela [00:05:08] Yeah.

Grace [00:05:09] You slept with them more than once?

Jameela [00:05:10] Yeah, yeah.

Grace [00:05:11] But I was telling you the other day about that guy that I’m seeing no longer Longer and hen he would come, it was like, it was like he just found out his whole family had died, like he was

Jameela [00:05:18] Hahaha!

Grace [00:05:18] He would cry so much.

Jameela [00:05:20] Braveheart scream.

Grace [00:05:22] And it was literally like that, like he was sacrificing himself. And every time he’d make those sounds, I’d be like, “This is the last time I’m going to have sex with him. This is the last time I’m going to go through this.” And then I’d always be there again, like four days later, and then he’s, doing it again and I’m like, “This is the last time I’m going to hear this.”

Jameela [00:05:43] Hahaha! Oh, that is so wrong, it’s so wrong.

Grace [00:05:53] It’s so but that’s always the thing, once that my feelings for someone like calmed down and resolved, I look at those things and I’m like, “Blech.”

Jameela [00:06:00] Yeah, but I think “Blech” is the healthy place to be with each other.

Grace [00:06:04] But weirdly when I’m like “Blech,” I don’t want to talk to them. So I’ve had that with, with exes where like we get to a point where we could be friends and then I’m like, “I don’t want to be friends with you.”

Jameela [00:06:14] Right. No, that’s fair, that’s fair. I think I’m only really in, like, property with, like, one of my exes, and that feels really nice. It’s not excessive. We talk, like, three times a year, check in with each other because we loved each other.

Grace [00:06:26] Yeah.

Jameela [00:06:28] We had an amazing time together, and circumstances kind of, like, pulled us apart. We weren’t right for each other. That’s okay. But it doesn’t take away from the friendship, so I think it’s just about giving yourself the space and time to forget the cum face and the genitals and to heal from all the trauma. And then it is possible. And it really also, I guess, kind of depends on the security of your new spouse.

Grace [00:06:47] What about

Jameela [00:06:48] You kind of have to take that into account because that’s hard.

Grace [00:06:49] What about if you, okay, if you, I know you’re in a long term relationship, so you should really ask me this question. But like hypothetically, what if you started seeing someone and they were still in constant communication with their ex?

Jameela [00:07:04] I’ve been in that situation before where she was a part of the friend group of my ex, so they saw each other all the time and I didn’t really have a choice and I knew that they’d broken up for a reason, so I didn’t really feel threatened by that. But I also don’t feel threatened by anything ever.

Grace [00:07:18] Yeah, well, that’s why I wish you’d have asked me that question.

Jameela [00:07:20] Okay, fine. Now ask, now the same question to you. What would you do?

Grace [00:07:24] I think that would like I think that would, I would struggle with it.

Jameela [00:07:29] Right.

Grace [00:07:29] Because I think that especially if it was a fresh break up, I would be like cause having been in that situation where I’ve just broken up with someone and I’ve started seeing someone, but I’m still in constant communication with my ex, it’s really confusing to actually develop feelings for someone in a fresh, clean slate way when you’re still talking to the person you’ve just broken up with.

Jameela [00:07:48] Yeah.

Grace [00:07:48] So I think I would, I would, I would be quite worried.

Jameela [00:07:51] Yeah, maybe a recent breakup I would struggle with, but I don’t know. Other than that, I would just say it’s a case by case basis, but if you’ve broken up amicably, give it some time, move on, and then really establish firm boundaries with that friendship so that you don’t end up hurting yourselves or your partners. Okay. Next question, handling job Interview rejection. Have you ever been rejected for a job?

Grace [00:08:16] I’ve never had a job.

Jameela [00:08:21] Hahaha! That’s not true. Wait, is that true?

Grace [00:08:25] What?

Jameela [00:08:25] James’s never had a job.

Grace [00:08:26] I’ve never had a real job.

Jameela [00:08:28] That’s crazy.

Grace [00:08:29] Well, I’ve had jobs like I’ve done stuff, obviously I make a living.

Jameela [00:08:33] Yeah, you’re a working comedian.

Grace [00:08:34] No, I had a job in a pub for awhile, but that was like Jack’s mum’s pub.

Jameela [00:08:39] Right.

Grace [00:08:39] So I worked in the pub, and that was epic. And then I worked at the Natural History Museum as a dinosaur.

Jameela [00:08:45] Okay.

Grace [00:08:46] No, I was, I worked in the cafe.

Jameela [00:08:48] Hahaha!

Grace [00:08:48] That took you ages. I worked in the cafe there, and I was pretty good at that. Then I worked as a tour assistant on a reggae, like a big reggae festival.

Jameela [00:08:59] Okay.

Grace [00:09:00] That I was really good at.

Jameela [00:09:00] There you go.

Grace [00:09:01] And I worked with Damian Marley.

Jameela [00:09:02] Yeah, so you had proper jobs.

Grace [00:09:03] But then I got fired from that job.

Jameela [00:09:04] Right.

Grace [00:09:04] Because my pupils were so dilated and they said that I looked like I was on drugs.

Jameela [00:09:08] Were you on drugs, Grace?

Grace [00:09:09] No. My pupils are always massive, have you not noticed that about me?

Jameela [00:09:12] No.

Grace [00:09:13] Oh.

Jameela [00:09:13] Sorry.

Grace [00:09:14] It’s crazy cause you’re staring into my eyes constantly. Hahaha!

Jameela [00:09:16] Hahaha!

Grace [00:09:17] What are you looking at?

Jameela [00:09:20] Just looking to see if there’s a soul in there.

Grace [00:09:23] No one knows the color of my eyes because my pupils are always so massive.

Jameela [00:09:24] Right, right, right, right. Yeah. No, that’s fair, that’s fair. I um-

Grace [00:09:27] So tell me about your job rejections.

Jameela [00:09:30] I mean, a lot of mine have been in this industry, like, if I’ve gone up for, like, a telly job, and then I haven’t got it. And it has been, and I don’t know if it’s denial that reinstates the sentiment of, like, what passes you or what messes you just isn’t for you. And, but it has, that does really resonate with me because every time I’ve not gotten a job that I thought I wanted or I thought would be good, I’ve then gone on to see that that job wouldn’t have been the right thing for me. Like either something massive happened in my life that would have made that job nearly fucking impossible for me to do, or it turned out to be shit or people who were on that job turned out to be fucking miserable. And it’s always been like a kind of almost final destination-esque like near miss. And so I think that it’s really, really easy to project that, “Oh my God, that would have been the job of my dreams. That would have been the best experience of my life.” But actually often it just is not something that’s compatible for you. And I’m not a super spiritual, religious person in any way, but I do think I’m starting to get more into the idea as I age, fast, of destiny and fate. And there’s something that I find kind of reassuring about that, even though it’s deeply, deeply unscientific. What about you?

Grace [00:10:40] I think so. I mean, I have never, ever, ever struggled with any kind of work rejection ever. My main issue is I struggle with romantic rejection. I think all of my problems with rejection are concentrated into that. Whenever I don’t get a job that like I wanted or whenever something in my career doesn’t quite go how I wanted it to, I’m always like, “Yeah, that’s fine, cause I’m going to do this to make up for that and this will still happen.” I, it’s, it’s something I but, but like, my issue is like when I get broken up with my man, like I want to kill myself for like, six months and I can’t look in the mirror. So, like, I definitely I’m bad with rejection I just think it’s all about, like, validation and relationships. I don’t know why that is. We could try and unpack that, but I don’t think we have time. So I don’t I, just kind of like move on and say, “Well, they’ll be, there’ll be another job that I’ll get.”

Jameela [00:11:27] Yeah, I really think it’s important that you think about that and you make sure to fill that time with like, “What have I learned from this? What can I now do with this time to make it purposeful and what can I look for that maybe fits me better?” It means it doesn’t fit you. It’s the same thing with romantic rejection, like why should we want something that doesn’t fit us?

Grace [00:11:44] I know.

Jameela [00:11:44] Why do we want someone who doesn’t want us back? It doesn’t make any sense because it’s not conducive to a really happy vibe.

Grace [00:11:50] But interestingly the comparison you can draw with that and jobs is when you fight for a job, and it’s the same with when you sort of fight with the, for an idea of a relationship or fight for a person, you want it more, even if it isn’t right, and you in years or months to come will see that it’s not right for you, when you are fighting, when you’re going through a process, trying to get a job and you have to do like five interviews, even if you started not wanting that job, the process of going through that makes you want it so much more, which is why the rejection at the end of that feels so much worse.

Jameela [00:12:18] Right. Okay, so that that makes sense. I think I have a blind spot there then, because there’s nothing that I actually want that badly at all apart from sort of snacks.

Grace [00:12:26] Donuts, yeah.

Jameela [00:12:26] Exactly.

Grace [00:12:30] Don’t try and say there’s nothing, Jameela.

Jameela [00:12:31] Yeah exactly, but like I think I’ve always lived with a philosophy of high hopes and low expectations, and so, and this means not just in work but also in love. I’ve always kind of lived inside of a fuck it bucket where I’m just like, “If it’s not meant to be, it’s not meant to be.” And  if someone doesn’t, isn’t willing to kind of lay down their life for me as a partner, then I’m like, “Well, why would I want that person then.” If they’re not, if they’re not, if they’re even vaguely uninterested in me, I immediately get completely turned off. I’m turned on by someone else’s ardor, by someone else’s affection for me or attention towards me. Someone being like a bit cold towards me or anything that can make some people even more interested

Grace [00:13:11] Me.

Jameela [00:13:12] It gives me the immediate ick. I’m just like, “Nope, no thank you.” I want something that is completely clear and certain and we’re both in, and we’re up for it and we’re ready to go. And I’ve been that way with work as well. If someone’s not excited to work with me, for example, I’m now at a place in my career where, not to brag, I get sometimes straight offers, which is where you don’t have to audition to get the role. And I insist on auditioning anyway now, because I want to know that they’re happy with the way I’m going to do it, and I want to earn the role. When it hasn’t been a great fit. It’s been a fucking miserable experience, and my mental health has taken a toll, and my physical health has taken a toll, and a relationship that is unhappy is so detrimental to my entire soul. It really ruins my health. And so I’m just not interested in anything other than certainty, pleasure and fun and world peace.

Grace [00:13:59] And world peace. Let’s end on that.

Jameela [00:14:03] But I know not everyone feels that way.

Grace [00:14:05] I’m not like that. I’m like, things that I can have, I don’t want. Like, I don’t like. It’s weird, it’s like.

Jameela [00:14:11] I think a lot of people relate to that. Do you know what that is?

Grace [00:14:13] I think that it is a very normal feeling when something that feels slightly out of reach, and maybe it’s a kind of deep desire to self-sabotage because instead of seeking the things that will make you feel good, it’s like it’s like a part of kind of not thinking you deserve good things.

Jameela [00:14:32] Mm.

Grace [00:14:32] So then chasing things that you probably won’t get or that will, you’ll get, but they won’t work out for you because there are clear warning signs, but you think that’s what you deserve.

Jameela [00:14:42] And is there, is there an extra ego boost in being able to turn someone’s like mind around if someone’s not sure about you, showing them that actually, no, I’m the, I’m the person.

Grace [00:14:53] Yeah?

Jameela [00:14:53] Is that, do you think that there’s something that kind of, I don’t know, there’s something complimentary in that for someone?

Grace [00:14:57] Yeah. Maybe, maybe. I don’t know. It’s really interesting. Like in my career in comedy, I have never really been approved of in comedy in the UK. Like, that’s going to sound really like people already hate that I’m saying that, but in a critical way, people have always chatted a lot of shit about me, but I guess like my my dad is well-known in the UK and people felt the I don’t know that it was happening maybe too easily for me. And then on a sort of like industry level, I still think there’s this weird vibe of people like, not really, not, not really knowing what to make of me. And instead of me I guess trying to prove that, which is, I’m slightly contradicting myself now. I’ve just gone the other way of like, “Well, I’ll just do it without you and on my own.”

Jameela [00:15:43] Mhm.

Grace [00:15:44] In work I’m not like that. It’s literally just with men that I’m like.

Jameela [00:15:47] Yeah, I can’t really decide if mine is cowardice or chill. I think it’s somewhere between the two.

Grace [00:15:52] That’s interesting.

Jameela [00:15:53] It could be, it could be

Grace [00:15:54] I think it’s more chill personally cause I don’t think you like, but I don’t know. You could just be a really good actor and you’re like

Jameela [00:16:02] I think we know I’m not a very good actor. Hahaha!

Grace [00:16:05] You could be tricking all of the people in your life. Hahahaha!

Jameela [00:16:10] Hahahaha! No, I do think it is just chill. I think what it is for me fundamentally, and I think this is a kind of sweeping philosophy of mine that is growing, is that especially when you have grown up as a woman and all the uncomfortable things that come with being a woman, including like fucking periods and the pain. And I’m also someone who’s, you know, experienced a lot of health problems. I broke my back when I was younger, and all this shit, I’ve gone through so much shit that I’m just like, I don’t want to be uncomfortable voluntarily for a second. Even when I get my dental hygiene done, they always try and talk me out of having like some form of anesthetic, and I’m like, “Why would I, why would I not take the anesthetic? I’m fine if talk like this for the rest of the day.” That’s fine. That’s like, “Give me the fucking shit. Give me anything.” I have laughing gas during a pap smear, so I’m fucking screaming with laughter through the entire thing. I will take anything that will stop me from feeling any kind of lack of pleasure. I’m whatever the opposite of no pain, no gain is I am that. Like I just, and so I think it extends to work and it extends to love as well. I refuse to be uncomfortable.

Grace [00:17:16] It’s good that you, I think you have a good, and you’re very good at doing this with me, of assessing like cause I’m very about assessing what is a good or bad situation for me. Like, I don’t trust my judgment, and that’s kind of where I’m at at the moment and in my relationships with men is because of making quite poor decisions in the past. I really don’t trust my judgment. So I do take a lot of opinions from other people and you’re good at seeing things in that way of what is actually going to be good for you long term.

Jameela [00:17:46] Yeah.

Grace [00:17:46] Versus what do you feel in this moment which feels really intense, but in like five days it won’t.

Jameela [00:17:52] Yeah, well, I just personally believe anyone who is listening to this, I think you should always run towards the most pleasure and ease possible in life.

Grace [00:17:58] I think that’s very good advice.

Jameela [00:17:59] I think that we’ve had it very glamorized to suffer and to be heroes and to be martyrs. And I think that that is very, very insidious conditioning that is specifically targeted at women. It’s targeted at men in different ways, maybe more physical ways or work ways, but in every way women are targeted to just endure, endure, endure, endure, and tolerate suffering and think it’s somehow our fault. And so run, run from suffering however you can in this already difficult world. That’s just my two cents.

Grace [00:18:28] Very very good advice. Yeah, thank you.

Jameela [00:18:30] Okay, what are ways to self-soothe? Wanking.

Grace [00:18:35] Yep. Masturbating. But good old vibrator.

Jameela [00:18:40] Having a good old fud. Hahaha!

Grace [00:18:46] Hahaha! Who are you? Like an old English man. You’re like an old pervy English man whose eyes can’t like help themselves from looking down at my breasts.

Jameela [00:18:57] I know, I’m seconds away from, “Fancy a friendly poke.”

Grace [00:19:05] *Retches* Hahaha!

Jameela [00:19:05] Other than wanking?

Grace [00:19:06] Other than wanking? Um…well, I mean…

Jameela [00:19:09] I think we solved it.

Grace [00:19:13] Other than wanking, what’s a good way to self-soothe? None of the things that I do are things that I should recommend.

Jameela [00:19:19] I disagree. You compulsively watch your favorite comedy shows that you love that make you better.

Grace [00:19:25] That’s true. I’m rewatching Insecure at the moment. That calms me down a lot.

Jameela [00:19:28] I like to rewatch Girls because their lives are so stressful that I immediately feel better about my own.

Grace [00:19:33] That’s exactly how I feel when I watch those shows, because it’s a good bit of like, “Oh, actually everyone’s going through this all the time.”

Jameela [00:19:37] Yeah, I’m not alone.

Grace [00:19:39] Well, you got me on to playing that game Impulse, which I do now whenever I’m trying not to like send someone an angry message, I go on impulse and just play games instead.

Jameela [00:19:51] You’ve now plugged La Croix and Impulse on this.

Grace [00:19:53] I know.

Jameela [00:19:54] And I’m not getting paid by either, so thanks Grace.

Grace [00:19:55] Okay, I’m sorry. Well, maybe there’s a future collaboration pending now with La Croix.

Jameela [00:20:00] I hope so. Impulse is a fantastic app that has lots of mind puzzles that help you with your memory which you especially need at my age.

Grace [00:20:08] Exactly, at your age, and not at my age because I’m a ripe, old, young peach.

Jameela [00:20:11] You’re on your way. You are.

Grace [00:20:12] Yeah, I’m in my twenties. I’m very much in my twenties.

Jameela [00:20:15] I wouldn’t say peach but yeah. Six months left of my twenties. Hahaha! Actually, you know what, that’s, wait, wait, just before we get into it, I also think time with friends is incredibly important. I think it’s important to find that balance of making sure you take time alone and don’t feel like you’re being weird or anti-social. We all need a bit of time to regroup. Put on your favorite, put on your favorite television and listen to your favorite music. Go for walks. Please go for walks.

Grace [00:20:46] Hang out with dogs. I would say my main thing is like, that’s what’s been so nice staying with you, and that’s what I do when I’m in London is if I’m sad or from feeling anything, I just hug my dog.

Jameela [00:20:54] Yeah, hug your dog. And please, please, please go for walks. I’m not asking you to do any kind of boring exercise, but go for a walk, listen to a podcast, listen to music. It is outrageous the speed at which moving your body can shift your perspective and give you a sense of autonomy. That I think is really important, and then when you feel ready to see people and hear input about how shit things are in your life, then start hanging out with friends who make you feel good about yourself, who uplift you, not someone who’s going to make you feel like this is all your fault, or who’s going to make you feel like this is some sort of disaster. Someone who’s really going to empower you. Those are the people you need to surround yourselves with in that moment. Speaking of which

Grace [00:21:32] I turn 38 this summer, obviously can’t relate, and it has hit me hard that my face has aged and will continue to wrinkle, and in a couple of years will be getting bifocals and colonoscopies. It’s scary. I think aging is amazing. And I do think that like, not to offend, and I know we’re in LA right now, but like I spent a lot of time in France, and I love being in France and looking at the way that French women just age and just allow their bodies to age and look unbelievable and glamorous, but embrace all of the like parts of aging. Like, I think wrinkles are actually cool.

Jameela [00:22:09] Whenever I’ve said that publicly about like going to Europe and seeing how much of a difference it makes to the way that I feel emotionally. Seeing that there are women in certain parts of Europe are so much more prone to just allowing themselves to age naturally. Some people shout at me and they say that because of Instagram growing and TikTok culture growing, that actually even in Europe, these things are starting to penetrate and facelifts and

Grace [00:22:33] Which is, it’s definitely true, but I think like there’s, and also, by the way, you should do whatever you want to do in terms of the aging process. Like I am so pro people doing whatever they want to do to make themselves feel happy. Life is so short and the world is fucked and we’re all going through shit, so if you want to do something to make yourself feel better about this process, but more, my point to that is that like, I don’t know, and one of the things that I think about a lot is the way that the show Grace and Frankie re-pitched getting older as a woman. And I love that show so much. That’s one of my comfort shows I watch it every single night before sleep and I go to sleep to the sound of it. But why are you laughing?

Jameela [00:23:13] It’s a sweet.

Grace [00:23:13] No, but it is true because that show made me really excited to be older. And it makes me and and I love Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda. Obviously their relationship is unbelievable, but there are so many cool things about getting older. And if we re-pitched the idea of like being a wise older woman who has gone through things and can help younger women who are struggling and going through this fucked up Instagram TikTok stuff, there’s something amazing about that. So I love it when I like see, I guess, women embracing that.

Jameela [00:23:43] I 100% feel the same way. I realized it’s been quite detrimental to my mental health to live in a city like Los Angeles, where it just feels like everyone has the same surgeon and everyone has the same face and no one ever ages, and you can’t really tell how old anyone is because people in their twenties get so much Botox.

Grace [00:23:59] And then they all look the same age.

Jameela [00:24:00] But they look 40 and then like 60 year olds are getting so much Botox they also hit 40, so it’s in a city of just like all 40 year olds, which is fine, and again, I don’t mean that in a judgmental way, but it makes me suddenly look at myself differently in the mirror and start thinking about thoughts that are not really going to benefit me in any way. They don’t make me more interesting or thoughtful or better friend. I don’t want to think about my skin or my face like it’s it’s a fucking waste of time and it takes my eye off the ball.

Grace [00:24:24] I couldn’t agree more. 100%.

Jameela [00:24:24] And it makes me angry that these intrusive thoughts aren’t coming from me. They’re coming from the outside, but when I went to Europe, suddenly I grew immensely in security around my body and my face, and I was so much more comfortable with the idea of aging. And it looks so elegant to me, looks so beautiful to me. And I want, that’s what I want. I’m never going to say never because I think that’s a really weird and pretentious thing to do, but I would say that I’m a 99% certainty that I would like to see my face age and see my experiences on my face. And and the health part of that is shit, you know, I, I’ve just been getting kind of acid reflux in the last hour for the first time, and I’ve been like, “Fuck, this is 37.”

Grace [00:25:05] Yeah but I’ve been getting acid reflux since I was so young.

Jameela [00:25:07] Yeah, well but it feels like a more common thing as you get older and my knees don’t work, you know, properly like, you know, when I look at Megan Thee Stallion twerking, I’m unable to admire her form because I’m too busy, like marveling at her knees. Like, that’s the kind of thing you start to think about at my age.

Grace [00:25:24] I just imagined you twerking. Hahaha!

Jameela [00:25:27] Hahaha! Oh, my God, Don’t put that in everyone’s head.

Grace [00:25:29] I’m so sorry. That is what you just put into everyone’s head. You just basically said that. You put that in my head.

Jameela [00:25:30] People are suffering enough. People suffering enough. It’s already a terrible world. I can’t believe you did that. I’m really sorry, everyone. I’m really sorry that she has put that visual in your head. I can’t imagine anything sadder than my ass-less backside wiggling, in all of the wrong directions. The thing I would say is that, like look, the health part is shit, and I’m not going to lie about that. But it is also a motivation to, as young as you can, start looking after yourself, and that means making sure you’re putting nutritious shit in your body, making sure you’re exercising cause that makes that so much easier.

Grace [00:26:09] One million percent. And my mum is like, my mum looks unbelievable and she’s had no work done, but she’s just like always kind of looked after her health. And I will never look as good as her cause I drink and haven’t been as good as her, but she, and she looks really good. But she looks like her age.

Jameela [00:26:25] It’s also important to look after your mental health at this age. If you like, get ahead of the game like because that kind of thing is going to impact your health and all the fucking colonoscopies and all that, and I’m not looking forward to that. I’m like, I don’t know, ten years away from the first time someone has to stick a camera up my asshole. And that is terrifying to me, all of that. But the one thing I want to say about getting older that I’ve like, I personally have a very like a loving relationship with the idea of getting older because all the people I was the most drawn to my whole life was specifically older women, and I mean women over the age of 60. And talking to people like Gloria Steinem, who on this very podcast when I first started it, told me that like when she reached 60, she felt invisible, but then also felt completely free. And that just sounded absolutely amazing to me. It sounded absolutely amazing the way that she talked about being post-menopause, no longer being kind of enslaved by this period and by the hormonal ups and downs constantly.

Grace [00:27:18] And by men being creeps all the time. You know, even as I’ve gotten older in my twenties, I’m like, it’s so nice that like, I don’t get perved on in the way that I did when I was younger because I look like someone now that if you perved on me, I’d like spit in your face.

Jameela [00:27:31] Hahaha! You actually do very much so, yeah.

Grace [00:27:34] But I used to get perved on so much because tits. Men are just so like

Jameela [00:27:38] Yeah, but also since we were children.

Grace [00:27:39] Yeah, exactly, but that’s the weridest part is like, me and my friends are saying the other day we were like the way I used to get perved on in the streets when I was a teenager versus is now is terrifying.

Jameela [00:27:51] Yeah.

Grace [00:27:51] How much they will creep on teenage girls.

Jameela [00:27:54] It was outrageous to be like 12, 13 years old and learn how to speed up past a construction site. Like my, my, my, it was like muscle memory of like, if I see any kind of construction or like any builders collected anywhere, I would just start like becoming like the Road Runner and getting past them as fast as possible. And I was an actual child. It’s ridiculous.

Grace [00:28:11] So there’s a, there are good things to aging.

Jameela [00:28:13] Yeah, totally, and also and also that like as I get older, like now that I’m on my way, you know, I’m, I’m on the other side of 35, I’m on my way towards 40, and I have never been calmer. I have never felt happier. I have never felt more secure. I have never had a firmer understanding of the world or who I am, and I know that that is only going to increase. I know this is not the the height of the chill that I’m going to be able to find, because I recognize, you know, when you get to this age and you’re able to and, you know, people do stop showering you with so much attention and the chaos does kind of slow down and you settle into a routine or a relationship or a home or whatever. When everything’s slows down, you’re able to look at the fucking chaos that young people are dragged through and just think, “Jesus Christ, I’m so happy to be on the other side of that.”

Grace [00:29:01] And also, you know yourself so much more. Like I, I’ve cause I am soon to be 30, but not quite yet, six months away. But I, when I think about the shift that I’ve gone through in this decade, it’s crazy like how much more comfortable I am with the person that I am and how much more I back myself now than I did before. And that’s so cool, like, I can’t wait to be your age.

Jameela [00:29:29] Hahaha! I don’t find that offensive. I really agree with you. I wish I could put you in a time machine and bring you here.

Grace [00:29:35] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I’ve got loads of men I need to shag in the next ten years. Hahaha!

Jameela [00:29:44] Hahaha! I fucking love it. I am like, bring on the years. Bring on the years. I love all of the wisdom. I love the fact that I get taken more seriously. I love that being, I love being more free. I love being more invisible. I love being expected, if badly now

Grace [00:29:57] You’re the least invisible person in the world.

Jameela [00:30:01] But I really enjoy it.

Grace [00:30:02] Said no one ever.

Jameela [00:30:04] No, but like I don’t get hit on as much.

Grace [00:30:06] No, no, I know what you mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:30:06] I don’t get as much attention, like I’m not on the magazine covers. I just get to be like, free and I’m going to be one of those really, really batshit old ladies. Like, I’m going to dress completely inappropriately.

Grace [00:30:18] Me too.

Jameela [00:30:18] I’m going to have very, very, very bright hair. I’m just going to do whatever the fuck I like.

Grace [00:30:23] We were talking about this the other day like. Yeah, getting to that age and being like, I’m just going to be fucking crazy.

Jameela [00:30:26] Yeah, I don’t want to chase youth anymore because youth has got some of the worst memories of my fucking life. And I think that’s why, I think someone said that like the first cells that start to die in your brain as you age are the cells that kind of carry your anxiety. And that’s why people just get so chill, and they just sit by the window after about 70.

Grace [00:30:45] I’m just gonne get real high. Just be really high, yeah.

Jameela [00:30:46] Oh, yeah. No, hard drugs is definitely on the agenda.

Grace [00:30:49] Really just high as a kite.

Jameela [00:30:49] If you were a drag queen, what would you look like?

Grace [00:30:53] That’s so good. I really want to remember I thought of such a good drag queen name the other day, and now it’s just forgot. I can’t remember it, but it was epic.

Jameela [00:31:02] I still really like disgrace.

Grace [00:31:03] Disgrace? Yeah, but it’s kind of sounds like you’re trying to speak patois

Jameela [00:31:07] Oh, yeah, that’s true. I just think I would look like me. I already kind of dress and do my makeup like a drag queen.

Grace [00:31:13] Yeah, I mean, when I’m on stage that is my vibe.

Jameela [00:31:16] Yeah.

Grace [00:31:16] Yeah, definitely. But I think I would, like, really throw myself into, like, the tits.

Jameela [00:31:22] Mhm.

Grace [00:31:22] Like, in a, in a bigger way.

Jameela [00:31:24] I don’t think there is a bigger way today that I could be throwing myself into the tits if anyone is looking at the full video of this anyway. Right, yeah, I think, I think that would be, I think that’s it. I don’t, but I literally don’t think there’s much more glitter I could wear on television at this point. And I think also drag queens are a massive part of my

Grace [00:31:42] Style. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:31:42] My sort of beauty inspiration and my style inspiration of the fact that they just are so celebratory in the way that they present themselves. And I think as someone who felt my whole life like I just had to hide and be small and starve myself and be skinny. Watching these women, like, plump up their hips and their boobs.

Grace [00:32:00] And just the massive hair

Jameela [00:32:02] The massive hair.

Grace [00:32:02] I want to make my hair so big.

Jameela [00:32:04] It feels like a giant celebration. And so I really appreciate that without wanting to appropriate it.

Grace [00:32:09] Just not holding back at all because one of the things I get in stand up is people are always like, “Why do you dress like a slut, like when you’re doing comedy?” And I get all this, I get all this stuff. Like middle aged men are like, “I can’t even listen to what you’re saying because you’re dressed like that.” Haha! And so I, it just makes me want to do it more.

Jameela [00:32:24] Yeah, 100%.

Grace [00:32:25] It makes me want to just dress up more.

Jameela [00:32:26] Someone’s asked, “How do you stop constantly comparing yourself to others?” Which is, they say, their daily battle. Is that something that you do?

Grace [00:32:34] Bless you. I used to do that. I don’t do that anymore. That’s one of the big shifts that has changed in my twenties, but yeah. My best advice because that used to happen to me a lot more, it really genuinely never happens to me now, is I would go offline when I’m having those feelings because it’s the internet that really exacerbates it. So if you’re feeling insecure, which could be like your hormones, like it would always happen at like when I’m coming on my period and I wouldn’t realize it, and then I’d like go and look at this person who’s doing much better than me and be like, “I hate my life. I’m not doing anything.” You know what I mean?

Jameela [00:33:05] When I’m in that state, I just cut my fringe too short and then I look like a small baby lamb. Anyway, sorry.

Grace [00:33:13] That’s really good advice, I would say.

Jameela [00:33:15] Don’t cut your fringe the week before your period. Please. Please. I do it every single month.

Grace [00:33:23] Don’t. Hahaha. It’s like the sister in Fleabag when she cuts her hair.

Jameela [00:33:24] Yeah, yeah. You can track my cycle from how fucking janky I look on Instagram once a month.

Grace [00:33:31] Hahaha, but I would go, and that’s what I do this all the time now, like when I was having quite a bad mental period recently, I just deleted Instagram for like three weeks, basically, apart from when I had to post a video for work. And because those feelings come from something inside you that’s like needs a bit of attention, whether it’s an insecurity, whether you’re depressed, whether you’ve got something that just needs a bit more care and like protection and love. And so doing anything that’s going to trigger whatever that is will make it much worse. So when I’m feeling that way now, I would just say, “I’m just going to delete Instagram,” until I feel like it’s gone and then it goes. Then I go back on Instagram, and I do not feel those things at all.

Jameela [00:34:12] Yeah, it also like we have to think about like the cause that a lot of comparison culture is a symptom of a scarcity mindset, which I think is especially inflicted upon women. And then like, especially when they become minorities or different genders, etc. It’s like you’re made to feel like you’re in this tiny pool, there are very, very limited opportunities for you, and so you have to be better than everyone else. And the markers as to what is better are so arbitrary and ridiculous. And men are just simply not held to quite the same standard as that. They are compared to each other in different ways.

Grace [00:34:43] Not in the same way.

Jameela [00:34:43] But there’s so many more just sort of generic same type of man in different jobs or fields than there are women. Women feel like they have to really, really stand out whilst also not standing out too much and putting their head above the parapet. It’s a death trap, and so

Grace [00:34:59] In comedy that is like, that is the cause in comedy it’s like there’s only, for so long there’s only been like one really, really good female comedian at one time, right being celebrated, which is why you then and is that when I, when I started doing standup, I used to feel that all the time. But then, like you said, I think once you realize that that isn’t true and get rid of the scarcity mindset of like the space for more than one of you, then you won’t be comparing yourself to them because you’re different.

Jameela [00:35:27] Yeah. And also recognizing that it is a deliberate fear tactic, the scarcity mindset kind of makes you feel

Grace [00:35:32] To make women not do it.

Jameela [00:35:33] Yeah, it makes you feel like you don’t want to participate in that. I would also say that there’s a difference between healthy inspiration and aspiration. I’m more pro inspiration than aspiration as in inspiration being like, “Oh, this person has that and that looks really fun and I think I would be good at that or I would enjoy that. How do I get myself to that?” Rather than wanting them not to have that thing or wanting to be them. That I think is incredibly toxic and dangerous. And

Grace [00:35:58] So is that the difference between inspiration and aspiration? So aspiration is like, “I want to be you.”

Jameela [00:36:02] Yeah, I want to be like you, yeah, yeah,

Grace [00:36:03] Inspiration is, “I am inspired by you.” Interesting.

Jameela [00:36:05] I am inspired to do that in my own way.

Grace [00:36:06] Yeah.

Jameela [00:36:06] I think, I think there’s like

Grace [00:36:08] Inspiration is, it’s the best, like we all need it to make us ambitious.

Jameela [00:36:11] Yeah, I get inspired by you. Yeah.

Grace [00:36:13] Thank you. Crickets.

Jameela [00:36:16] And um who do you feel inspired by?

Grace [00:36:23] Who do I feel inspired by?

Jameela [00:36:24] Alright. It’s fucking Michaela Coel. I know, alright. Hahaha!

Grace [00:36:29] No, I’m sorry. I said to you this this morning that you inspire me.

Jameela [00:36:31] No, no, I know.

Grace [00:36:32] I literally said it in bed this morning. She was staring so deeply into my eyes, saying, “Tell me I inspire you. Tell me I inspire you.”

Jameela [00:36:39] You’re such a lying cunt. Hahaha!

Grace [00:36:39] No, but I said that because you, the way you, the phrase I said was “your modus operandi.” It was the first time in my life I’ve said that.

Jameela [00:36:51] Where is this serial killer like version of me that you created come from? Hahaha! Sorry, okay. Go on.

Grace [00:36:59] I am inspired by your modus operandi because the way you lead your life and also I’m inspired by your career deeply and I’m inspired by the things that you say about the world but I can’t, I’m throwing up in my mouth now.

Jameela [00:37:10] Yeah.

Grace [00:37:10] So we’re going to have to move on, but the way you lead your life really inspires me. And I want to live my life like, I want to live my life in a more similar way that you do.

Jameela [00:37:18] What? More for snacks and pleasure?

Grace [00:37:20] Just exactly what you were saying before being led by things that make you feel good and letting that be a huge part of your decision making process.

Jameela [00:37:29] Yeah, I find the idea of of volunteering for suffering absolutely outrageous, and I can’t believe how much of my life I spent doing it, especially having anorexia for 20 years. But yeah, anyway, I find a lot of women and other people inspiring, but I don’t choose to, where I’ve never landed, which I’m glad, is ever wanting someone to have less for me to feel like I have more.

Grace [00:37:53] Yeah.

Jameela [00:37:53] And I think if that’s something that you are experiencing, then it’s a good idea to maybe talk to someone about it. Not that person.

Grace [00:37:59] No. Definitely not that person.

Jameela [00:38:02] Someone else.

Grace [00:38:03] Do vocalize it because it’s not a crazy

Jameela [00:38:04] It’s not a crime.

Grace [00:38:06] There’s a lot of guilt. You feel a lot of guilt when you feel these things and you think you’re a bad person.

Jameela [00:38:09] Yeah.

Grace [00:38:09] And I think once you speak to them, you do feel much less ashamed.

Jameela [00:38:14] You also get to the bottom of it because it’s really not about that person.

Grace [00:38:17] And then someone will be like, but, you know, and then say something really matter of fact. And then you’re like, “Oh, yeah, obviously.”

Jameela [00:38:21] Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I think work towards, use comparison to, for inspiration not aspiration as a button on that. Alright, the myth of laziness and how that impacts the body. Let’s unpack.

Grace [00:38:34] Oh gosh. I, what were we saying the other day? How much we love lying down?

Jameela [00:38:39] Mhm.

Grace [00:38:40] I love lying down. And I love, like, embracing the fact that I’m naturally quite a lazy person.

Jameela [00:38:46] Right. I’m the same. I’m a potato person. I’m just a couch potato. And also, I think this might be my algorithm trying to enable me, but I every day see a different post that says apparently lazy people have a higher IQ, and I, I’ll take that, but it’s clearly conforming to

Grace [00:39:06] That’s very much like convenient for them.

Jameela [00:39:06] I clearly double tapped for them.

Grace [00:39:10] The person who wrote that is high.

Jameela [00:39:11] Yeah, exactly. But I do think there is something in that, right? What is considered lazy is often just someone who, again, is indulging in self preservation or pleasure.

Grace [00:39:23] What was that meme you saw the other day or that thing, the tweet and it was like about the four in the morning, people waking up at four in the morning.

Jameela [00:39:29] Oh yeah. If I was a billionaire, I would also tell all of my aspiring rivals that they should only get 4 hours sleep and wake up at 4:00 a.m everyday. Hahaha!

Grace [00:39:36] And I think it’s that, like that is so spot on. It’s like, yeah. I think a lot of people are being conned into thinking that, like, if you are so busy, that means you are successful, right? And my brother says this really funny thing, my brother’s favorite word as an insult is he calls people busy. Like when people just constantly say, when you say, “How are you?” And someone goes, “I’m so busy, I’m so busy.” And all they do is talk about how busy they are.

Jameela [00:39:57] That’s what they do in Los Angeles. That is the main answer that you get is like “busy man.”

Grace [00:40:00] Like that hustle culture of like I’m busier than you. I’m doing more than you. And it’s like, “Well, actually we’re all busy.” Like, if I’m lying down watching TV, I’m busy lying down watching TV.

Jameela [00:40:09]  I’m not available.

Grace [00:40:10] Yeah, I don’t want to talk to you because I’m busy. So it’s just like such a bullshit excuse.

Jameela [00:40:15] It’s capitalism.

Grace [00:40:18] Exactly, exactly.

Jameela [00:40:19] It’s sodden with capitalism.

Grace [00:40:19] Like it is it, it kills people.

Jameela [00:40:21] It does kill people. And it makes people fucking miserable and almost killed me. Like, I was so busy. I wasn’t sleeping at all. I was fucking dj-ing with pneumonia. Like that was the most suicidal period of my life was when I was at the height of my, you know, quote unquote success. But that, after that, that no longer

Grace [00:40:39] Not sustainable.

Jameela [00:40:40] Became a measure of my success. It was like, that was just a measure of my misery to me. And from the outside, everyone was like, “Wow, you’re doing so well. You’re doing so much. You’re on the covers of magazines, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” But I was so lonely. I had no time to spend, like with any of my friends or any of the people I loved. I had no stability. I was never in the same place for a normal amount of time. I didn’t have a single full night’s sleep in maybe eight months. And my health and my body and my heart and my brain were just deteriorating. And I was so miserable. Everything just felt so dark and overwhelming. I would not recommend it. It is a lie, it is a con. And I think especially those of us who were of an age to work after the 2008 crash, we really were the ones that were like the pressure got put on us. I know you were two. Don’t worry, you can relax.

Grace [00:41:23] I wasn’t two, I was just very young in seconary school.

Jameela [00:41:26] I know you just love to feel really young.

Grace [00:41:27] Yeah. I was just born.

Jameela [00:41:31] But we were the generation most pressured to, like, quote unquote, rebuild the economy. And it became glamorized to be the Girlboss and the boss bitch and the bad boss bitch and, to be on this kind of never ending hamster wheel. And you see so much content now being pushed out, especially towards men, just, you know, saying,

Grace [00:41:49] Oh my god, yeah.

Jameela [00:41:49] “I’m gonna wake up at 4 a.m., go to the gym, live like this, work 20 hours a week so you can have this Bugatti and this” like all this bullshit bullshit bullshit. I know a lot of the people who’ve done that, who followed that advice and who have all the shit and they’re miserable and they’re fucking lonely and they don’t know what to do because they spend so much of their life trying to cultivate stuff and to impress people. I mean, there are certain countries in which if you fall asleep at your desk, you are considered like to be a noble member of society.

Grace [00:42:18] Mhm. Love that.

Jameela [00:42:19] Because it means you’ve worked yourself, like, halfway to death, to the point where you’ve, no, no.

Grace [00:42:24] Oh right. I thought more because you can admit you’re tired.

Jameela [00:42:24] No, it’s that you’ve worked yourself to the point where you cannot actually function anymore. And that is considered noble. And I really don’t subscribe to that. I think it’s really awful. And I definitely participated in it when I was younger. But in the last few years, I think the pandemic really shifted something. And a lot of us that just went, “Wait, what the fuck were we doing? If I died tomorrow from this, you know, from COVID, would I look back on the way I’ve lived the last three, five, ten years and been like, smashed that had a great time on this planet?” No, most of us have been deceived into having all this shit that we don’t need. And I’ve done a massive reverse now where I’m trying to sort of sell all my stuff and just have enough for a nest that I’m going to move into and hide and work when I have to and then disappear for the rest of the time. I don’t want, I don’t want the chaos anymore. And I think that that is mischaracterized as lazy. And I often call myself lazy, and I’ve got to stop it because

Grace [00:43:16] Because I do think there’s, I think there is a difference between like what we’re describing and then like some people, like I’ve dated men who are like deeply lazy and I’m like, I cannot be with you because you haven’t got enough like

Jameela [00:43:27] But are they lazy or are they busy, you know, getting high and lying down?

Grace [00:43:30] Exactly. But that’s unattractive to me.

Jameela [00:43:32] Right.

Grace [00:43:32] Cause it’s like, you know, there has to be, it’s like I’m not saying don’t have drive, but I’m saying also embrace the fact that, like, you don’t have to be doing shit all the time. Don’t be busy.

Jameela [00:43:41] I personally don’t really give a shit what someone’s doing with that personal time. I think as long as they can make their own ends meet and aren’t depending on other people.

Grace [00:43:49] Yeah, but that’s that’s what I’m talking about.

Jameela [00:43:50] That’s where I draw the line. I think if you are not a dependent, like as an a voluntary dependent.

Grace [00:43:56] You can live your life how you want to but it’s like it’s when you’re sponging off of other people.

Jameela [00:43:58] Yeah, and I mean a voluntary dependent. There are some people who need to be independent. That’s fine. Some people choose to be dependent or whatever, but I’m just saying.

Grace [00:44:05] Like I’m depending on you right now living in your house. Hahaha!

Jameela [00:44:09]  Hahaha! As I apparently stare at you and hold a gun to your head. But I do believe there is a big, I think there is a big myth around laziness. And I do believe that as long as you’ve just about got your shit together, and I think as long as your lack of affect comes from a place of, as long as you’re filling that time with something that genuinely brings you joy and makes you a happier and more pleasant person to be around, then I don’t consider that laziness. I consider that self preservation.

Grace [00:44:33] Retweet.

Jameela [00:44:33] I think when you’re doing it in a way that is now, you are just letting everything fall apart. I think that isn’t laziness, that is that is just slow chaos.

Grace [00:44:42] And selfish because it will be affecting all the people in your life.

Jameela [00:44:45] Yeah, so as long as what you’re doing is not destructive, I don’t fucking think it’s laziness.

Grace [00:44:49] Agreed. Agreed.

Jameela [00:44:50] Yeah. I love lying down.

Grace [00:44:51] I love, I love lying down.

Jameela [00:44:53] Yeah.

Grace [00:44:54] My mum would sometimes say to me, “What are you doing tonight?” And I’ll just say, “Lying down.”

Jameela [00:44:58] Yeah, okay. Someone’s asked a question and I think there’s probably more to you. But I, someone said, “I always end up in a cute baby voice thing with my partners. I love it. But also, ick, is this common?”

Grace [00:45:10] Um.

Jameela [00:45:10] Yes.

Grace [00:45:10] Yes. It is.

Jameela [00:45:12] What is it?

Grace [00:45:13] It is though, but it is disgusting.

Jameela [00:45:15] Yeah.

Grace [00:45:15] It’s disgusting. And if anybody heard me speaking to men how I speak to them, I would leave the world. I would be so embarrassed.

Jameela [00:45:23] Mine is much worse than a baby voice. And you’ve unfortunately now that you’ve lived with me had to witness.

Grace [00:45:27] But it’s less ick.

Jameela [00:45:29] No, well mine is an Indian accent.

Grace [00:45:31] Yeah, but that’s less ick like than someone being like *baby noises*

Jameela [00:45:34] I just go into all these different characters when I am talking to James and all these different modes, like if we’re having a passive aggressive moment, or if we’re having a very affectionate moment, like I find it easier as a default. My sort of cute or not cute, but just like my relationship, alter ego is about seven different old Indian men, and this man has chosen to live with me for nine years. Hahaha! This week was our nine year anniversary.

Grace [00:46:01] Congratulations.

Jameela [00:46:02] And that’s nine years of him living with the seven old men in my head. Hahaha! I think when it comes to ick, given how common it is, I think where I draw the line is doing it publicly.

Grace [00:46:16] That’s it. Yeah, I do it privately. No one cares.

Jameela [00:46:18] I don’t know what it is, though. Like, is it just because someone makes you feel really safe and takes you back to the most vulnerable time in your life?

Grace [00:46:24] It’s the deepest form of affection. Like the way you feel around someone that you’re in love with is almost like, you’re like a fetus.

Jameela [00:46:32] But do you think, like this is what scares me, is that like, is that the real us? And the person we present on podcasts or at job interviews is like, is a mask and actually we’re all just like *baby sounds* or I’m like, “But, but, but, but.” Haha!

Grace [00:46:45] I don’t know because I feel like we’re all masking like, all the time when you’re doing anything publicly, like the way that I’m speaking right now is different to how I’ll be speaking like when we go home later.

Jameela [00:46:54] No, it’s quite similar.

Grace [00:46:55] Okay, well, fine. I guess I’m just really authentic then. Pause for applause. No, but I do think that the thing is, is the way you are with a partner is just like it’s a crazy concept. So, like, no one else should really see that, and like, I don’t like knowing the ins and outs of other people’s relationships.

Jameela [00:47:14] No, totally.

Grace [00:47:15] I don’t want to, I don’t want to see them.

Jameela [00:47:17] I’ve banned friends from coming over until I can get a hold on it because it was very like, “Does baby want a little bit of juice?”

Grace [00:47:23] No, no, no. I was stuck at a party talking to this girl recently and and she kept referring to her boyfriend who was like, sat next to us as “daddy,” but she would do daddy and this, like, “And then daddy will go and do,”

Jameela [00:47:35] Oh, no. That feels a bit scary.

Grace [00:47:38] And I was like, *retches*. Get away from me.

Jameela [00:47:41] I think deep down it does

Grace [00:47:43] I don’t want to know what you call your partner. It’s not my business.

Jameela [00:47:44] I think it’s just, I think it’s just really hard for us when we get sort of pushed into the world as adults when we’re only 18 years old and we don’t know fucking anything. And I think we spend a lot of our lives looking for some form of like, some kind of parental figure. And I think that’s why a lot of people are so deeply involved in religion sometimes, cause you’re like, “God’s just looking out for me and God has a plan for me and, you know, God’s going to, like, protect me from any decision I make.” And I think also maybe when you enter into a relationship with someone, they kind of become your family.

Grace [00:48:14] Yeah.

Jameela [00:48:14] And so maybe that’s something that you do. I could be a few different things because then also, you know, you know, the way that cats like go, “Meow?”

Grace [00:48:23] Mhm.

Jameela [00:48:24] That’s not natural for cats. Cats learn to do that only for humans because they recognize that when they made that sound, they would get affection and food from humans. So is there a possibility that because it’s mostly girls who do this, there are men who participate in it as well, but is it possible that we’re trying to be like, “I’m just little and harmless, don’t be intimidated by me, I’m just a little”

Grace [00:48:47] Yeah, fold me up and put me in your pocket.

Jameela [00:48:48] Yeah.

Grace [00:48:49] Yeah. It’s like when when girls wear their boyfriends clothes and they’re like, “Oh my God, I’m drowning in your t shirt.

Jameela [00:48:53] Yeah.

Grace [00:48:54] I’m such a little baby.” Hahaha!

Jameela [00:48:58] Hahaha! Maybe it’s the two, but, you know, listen, it’s not ick in private. Do what you want.

Grace [00:49:02] No, oh my god.

Jameela [00:49:03] If it’s working for you, that’s fine. I think be a little bit careful with the, like, mummy and son shit that can, because I’ve watched that go wrong every single time I’ve seen it with friends. Eventually they do actually start to look at you as their mother and that becomes a real fucking nightmare. But other than that I think you’re alright. It is common. It’s very common.

Grace [00:49:22] It’s so normal. Don’t be ashamed.

Jameela [00:49:23] No, don’tt be ashamed, unless you do it in front of us. And then we will shame you, so you don’t need to be ashamed.

Grace [00:49:29] I’ll kick you out of the room in such an aggressive way. I’ll kick you in the shin.

Jameela [00:49:31] Someone’s asked, “How do I get over the feeling that I failed in life?” And I think this is sort of a natural, there’s a kind of natural answer to this from a lot of the answers we’ve already given. In my opinion, I think it depends on what you’re using to measure success, because maybe you failed at a career, but maybe you’re a really good friend and maybe you’re a really good parent and maybe you are making other people’s lives better, or you’ve done a really good job of pulling yourself out of some horrific trauma or some difficulties, and you have come out just about whole. That to me is what I deem as success.

Grace [00:50:10] Yeah, I think it’s often these feelings which I don’t know what this person is going through, but it is often, it’s how what I was saying before about how you feel about yourself internally is why you will be feeling this way, if that makes sense. So it’s really about doing a lot of work on yourself, in your relationship with yourself, because it’s kind, oh it was the one about rejection or comparison. But when you are depressed, for example, which like I have been like periods in my life, I feel I’m failing at absolutely everything. And even like my friendships, like everything looks different to how it actually is when you’re in a specific mental space.

Jameela [00:50:49] Mhm.

Grace [00:50:49] So there is definitely a part of that. I don’t know what this person is going through of like addressing how you’re feeling about yourself, but then completely, I agree with you that we have such a warped idea of what like success is.

Jameela [00:51:03] Mhm.

Grace [00:51:03] We don’t value having amazing friendships and we don’t value the fact that we’ve like got great like relationships with people in our lives or like look after our health or like are good or something that’s not a job, you know?

Jameela [00:51:15] Yeah.

Grace [00:51:15] And I even talk about this because I’ve had a dog now for a year and I was like, “Do you know, I’m actually impressed. I’ve kept a dog alive for a year.” Like that, I was really proud of myself for that. And that to me has been a big achievement in the last year. Nothing to do with work. But I was like, I’m really impressed that I’ve like stuck with this dog and like she’s really

Jameela [00:51:35] And it’s a really happy, loving, like, healthy dog.

Grace [00:51:38] Exactly, and everybody says that. Everyone’s like, “Your dog is such a nice dog.” And I feel really proud of that. So there are other forms of success that aren’t career or romantic relationships.

Jameela [00:51:47] Yeah, I completely agree. I’ve massively, I think in my career I have received some really intensive bullying, especially from other women. I haven’t actually really had many issues with men in my time in this industry, but some women have made my life a fucking living hell and it’s because what they think I’m standing in the way of for them is some fucking statue, is some fucking award that they want to hold in their hands and they’re worried that I might get it. Not that talented or ambitious. Never gonna happen. Never coming for your award. But some people presume that because so many of us, especially in this industry, but I think this applies to many industries, again, going back to the scarcity mindset.

Grace [00:52:29] Yes.

Jameela [00:52:29] My life has been made miserable by these people, and they are miserable because they’re so obsessed with this arbitrary marker of, I don’t know, respect from their peers or being told I’m finally enough. Medals are fucking insane. They’re ridiculous.

Grace [00:52:44] And also you are, if you’re someone who’s doing that to other people, deep down you’re going to feel really fucking shit by yourself.

Jameela [00:52:52] Yeah.

Grace [00:52:52] So it’s a lose lose situation because you’re losing out on whatever it is that you think you’re losing out on, but then you’re actually going to feel really shit as a person.

Jameela [00:52:59] It’s also, it’s an exhausting way to live and it’s also a very isolating way to live because you lose a lot of friends along the way because it’s exhausting to be around that. It’s exhausting to be around someone who’s just constantly on the hustle all the time trying to acquire, acquire, acquire. It’s like, who are you doing that for? What are you doing that for? None of the people that I love the most do I ever even, I don’t know how much money they have. I don’t give a fucking shit what they do for a living. It’s just about the human connection. And I said this on a podcast recently and people said that I was very dark and and it wasn’t in a racist way, but they said that it was a very dark thing to say, but I’m going to say it again.

Grace [00:53:31] What?

Jameela [00:53:31] Which is that, my greatest wish for the people who have made my life hell to try and step over others to have industry success is that they get the success that they want. And for me, I think that is the cruelest thing you can wish on someone. Without fail, when you get that statue, when you have that pinnacle and I can say this from my own experience, then you realize it doesn’t make you happy. Now, I’m really lucky that I was 26 when I reached that sort of apex of whatever kind of success I was going to have back in England. But imagine getting to 30, 40, 50, 60, and getting it finally and then realizing it doesn’t make you happy. And then thinking of all the bodies you stepped over to get that how many friends you lost, how many people you isolated, how many miserable times you had at work, how many sleepless nights you had thinking about someone else other than yourself and obsessing over what they might take away from you, that horrible scarcity mindset. It is quite a dark thing to wish on people, but like I voted for those people to win awards.

Grace [00:54:33] But I think that’s, that’s like what I’m saying is that is all a feeling that they have inside themselves, so nothing is going to change it no matter what they get in their career or whatever it is that they’re trying to get. It’s, that feeling is not going to go away unless they do work on themselves.

Jameela [00:54:50] And it’s so corrosive, and so I don’t, I don’t choose to, I think I’m really lucky that I learned that lesson both from realizing very literally, it doesn’t make you happy and it makes you suicidal sometimes. And from watching how far other people have been willing to go and what they’ve been willing to put me through, to the detriment of both of our enjoyment of the job.

Grace [00:55:08] Yeah.

Jameela [00:55:08] Because it’s like we should just be so happy to be there. We’re so lucky. We’re so privileged. It’s like, let’s just have a good time.

Grace [00:55:15] Have a good time, and then also it does make stuff better if people are enjoying making it.

Jameela [00:55:19] Totally, totally. It’s really batshit and it makes me like now that I’m older, before I used to be angry, but now I just feel very sorry for them.

Grace [00:55:26] Mhm, that’s good.

Jameela [00:55:26] And I know not to engage or to beg for their affection any longer. That doesn’t work. It does push people further away. Don’t do that. Anyway, so I think it depends on how you measure success. But I think first of all, it is an ongoing effort. There is no final destination for what success is. You keep finding new margins of success or things that you want to reach as you get older, and you should never stop striving towards them because otherwise it means you’re dead. Just shift them to things that are realistic and organic and actually going to bring you joy and fun and bring you closer to other people. That’s my opinion.

Grace [00:56:01] Do you mind if I get the crisps out of my bag?

Jameela [00:56:03] No, that’s fine. I think we’re going to wrap up.

Grace [00:56:05] Okay. I’m just so hungry.

Jameela [00:56:08] Haha! Can we just discuss the fact that I just

Grace [00:56:11] No, I wasn’t listening. I wasn’t listening, Jameela. I’m so sorry. I just suddenly got so fucking hungry, and I got really

Jameela [00:56:18] I hate you so much.

Grace [00:56:19] No, but I haven’t eaten anything today apart from that tiny bit of yogurt.

Jameela [00:56:22] That’s fine.

Grace [00:56:22] I was just having a really low blood sugar moment.

Jameela [00:56:24] No, no, it’s fine. No, no, it’s fine. I’ll just go fuck myself. That’s fine. Hahaha!

Jameela [00:56:31] Mm these are such good crisps.

Jameela [00:56:34] Can you give me one?

Grace [00:56:34] Mm mm.

Jameela [00:56:34] Tell everyone,  before I kick you off this fucking podcast. Tell everyone where they can find your other work.

Grace [00:56:43] Ohh.

Jameela [00:56:43] Don’t fucking touch the crisps.

Grace [00:56:45] I am so bad with this. I’m so bad. I am Grace Campbell and I’m on Instagram @DisgracedCampbell and Tik Tok @DisgracedCampbell. And then I’ve just made a podcast for iHeartRadio where I went on 28 first dates with strangers and then speak about the dates, recorded the dates, speak about the dates, and have not been on a date since because it was so traumatizing. So please listen to it so that my trauma is worth something.

Jameela [00:57:06] Mhm. It’s amazing. And she is amazing. She is slightly disrespectful when she’s hungry. But now we’re going to go home together.

Grace [00:57:12] That should be on my gravestone. She was amazing, but slightly disrespectful when she was hungry. That’s what I want to be remembered as. Hahaha! My ex-boyfriend, whenever we’d get, whenever I’d start an argument about nothing, he’d be like, “What have you eaten today?” And I’d be like, “I haven’t eaten anything.” And it would be like 2:00 PM and he’d be like, “Can you eat? And then come back to me, and let me know if you still have this problem.” Then I would eat and I’d be like, “No, no, I’m over it.”

Jameela [00:57:34] Oh my God. What a nightmare. What a brilliant, fun nightmare you are. And now we’re going home together.

Grace [00:57:41] Thank you.

Jameela [00:57:42] Thank you for coming and answering all these questions and for being so honest and personal and giving love you lots. Oh, fuck off.

Grace [00:57:50] Love you.

Jameela [00:57:51] And of course, thank you, everyone, for sending in your incredibly thoughtful questions.