EP. 215 — Be the Expert in Your Own Life with Maisie Hill

Jameela Maisie Hill, my huge crush. Welcome back to I Weigh. Hello!

Maisie Haha! Likewise. Thrilled to be here.

Jameela It’s so good to have you here. I cannot tell you, I think we’ve rereleased your episode, like, three times. Just the last time you came on to talk about period power because of how instrumental that book has been in me and my friends’ lives. It is the book I have most recommended or gifted to other people, and it has shifted my existential perspective on my own body and the way that I live my life. I cannot tell you enough how impactful your book has been for me and my listeners and every woman I know, so thank you for that.

Maisie You’re welcome.

Jameela And now you’ve done it again.

Maisie I’m just going to bask bask in the glory

Jameela Yeah.

Maisie Of that praise.

Jameela Enjoy the glow.

Maisie Which is important because so often we brush past that and go, oh, you know, it was nothing like, and I’m like, no, I’m just going to I’m going to receive the compliment. Thank you.

Jameela Yeah. Please do. Well, you’ve done it again. You’ve written another book and this one’s called Powerful: Be the Expert in Your Life. So many of your books are just about making sure that people have the actual agency and autonomy via the information. Like, for example, with your book about period power, you really broke down our cycles to us and told us to, you gave us tangible tips. Everyone go back and listen to that episode, Period Power whenever you can. But, you gave us tips to monitor our own selves as case by case individuals and have the, I don’t know, you just you kind of gave us permission to prioritize our periods, which is so ridiculous because we’ve always been taught to shun them.

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela And see them as this nuisance that neither we nor anyone else must think about or give time to. We just got to get through it as quickly as possible. And you taught me to center my life around mine in a way that didn’t make me obsessed, but helped me understand what the fuck was going on in my brain. And I feel as though this book is the natural progression beyond that of like, okay, now you understand your body, let’s understand your mind.

Maisie Yeah. It’s it’s totally is the progression and its progression, you know, that I have with all my clients and you know, people that follow me and listen to my podcast that they’re just like, okay, well, I’m tracking my cycle. I have this awareness of what’s going on with my hormones, and I’m feeling stressed out and I’m like struggling with these things that are going on so like, what? What do I do with that? What is the next steps? And that’s just what all of us experience, so and including me, because today is day one of my period. Classic timing. These things got to happen. So, you know, there’s that understanding and connection to what’s going on with my hormones and my menstrual cycle and like, building in the support that I need for doing things like coming on your podcast on on the days when you know it is harder for me to retrieve information and finish sentences and kind of pull all the expansiveness that’s going on inside me into something clear and coherent for everyone to listen to.

Jameela Well, if it makes you feel any better I am also on day one of my period.

Maisie You are kidding me.

Jameela And I feel as though I am fighting through a wilderness to make a proper sentence so we can just struggle through this shit together.

Maisie Same. We’re twinsies. Love it.

Jameela Yeah, you know what else you did, you made me just less ashamed about talking about my period. I just felt,

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela I just I had that archaic shame. And now I talk about it all the time, and it’s no longer this taboo part of my life. It’s also not my enemy. It’s not my enemy. And when it comes to this book, which is largely about the mind, you are removing the mystery of the mind partly by helping people understand their stress chemicals, etc., the neurochemicals and and in doing so, you’re demystifying the brain. Like something I’ve become obsessed with, and I talk a lot about on this podcast, is that we have this computer in our mind, and when we get a new iPhone, we learn everything about it. When we get a computer or any kind of TV or Apple remote, etc., we learn everything we can about how to use it in a way that is most functional for us, and we do not do that with the most complex computer on Earth, which is the one inside of our brains. And so I spend a lot of time learning, researching, and writing about neurology. And and I was so happy to see that you have broken this down in a very relatable, digestible way. So how would you describe this book to someone who might not have heard of your work or the book before?

Maisie So it’s very much like period power and perimenopause power, in that I do a really fucking great job of explaining scientific stuff, things that go on with your body, stress responses, what’s going on with your hormones, your menstrual cycle. And so I just want to distill that down into things that you can easily understand and apply to your life. So part of it is just giving information, because that in itself is really powerful. And you’re just like, “Oh, when I do that, that’s what’s going on. That’s what’s affecting me. That’s what’s influencing me.” So then we have understanding of ourselves. We have compassion for what’s going on. And then from there we can start bringing all the life coaching strategies that I use with my clients and ways of interrupting our most practiced thought patterns and all the internal narratives that we have going on all the time, and taking some control over that and actually finding our power in all these different types of situations. So each chapter of the book looks at different situations like making decisions, people pleasing, boundaries, being emotional, you know, being an emotional human being and like a how to navigate those things whilst also appreciating how various stress responses are going to affect that.

Jameela Mhm. One of the big, and more sort of insidious stress responses that we have is to making decisions, which you talk about beautifully in the book, and I’d love to get into that with you because I think it’s something that we don’t even know we’re struggling with because it just doesn’t feel like a big deal. It’s not a big public discussion, but the amount of decisions that specifically women and especially mothers have to make. You know, I was recently having a conversation with a friend who was struggling with her partner who she has a baby with and she was so frustrated with him. And he was frustrated with her, and he was just like, “I don’t know why she doesn’t give me any credit like I do all the things that she delegates to me.” And I was like, “Can you see how it’s extra stress for her to have to also think about the things that you have to do as well as, and even to delegate.” I was like, “It’s great that you get it done eventually, but for her to have to prescribe everything to you as if you’re her employee rather than you two are partners in this is an unspoken stress.” And the next morning, he’d packed the baby’s bag, and he cooked dinner that week and did all of the things that they’re asking, and it made such a huge difference. And he realized that, fuck, there is a a mental tax. And because we can’t see the physical labor, we can’t see the blood and sweat and tears, it’s all happening internally behind a smiling woman’s face. People just don’t recognize the stress of it. So can you talk to me about what you’ve learned about decision making?

Maisie Yeah, I love talking about decision making because whenever we talk about it or when I’m coaching on it, it just brings up so much because it brings up our fears, our concerns, our worries about how other people are going to judge us, the thoughts that they are going to have about us according to our brains that may or may not even actually be true. It brings up like, can we have a challenging conversation? Can we say what is in us and actually get it out and say it to someone else? And it just, oh, I love talking about decision making. So it’s something that many of my clients struggle with when it comes to making decisions. And they’ll say, “Well, I’m confused or I don’t know what I want, I don’t know what to do.” And, I just like to say to them, “Well, you know, if we waved a magic wand and whatever you decided to do worked out perfectly, and everyone around you just responded with praise and adoration and like, “Oh, that’s a, I love that you’re doing that for yourself.”

Jameela Maybe you’re given some cake.

Maisie Yeah.

Maisie If they responded like that, would you know what decision you’re going to make in this particular scenario? And I am yet to have someone tell me no. They always know what their decision is. They’ve actually already made the decision, but the fear of how others are going to respond, what people are going to say about them, what they’re going to do gets in the way. And it’s no wonder when you think about how we’ve been socialized and all the judgments that come up and how

Jameela Especially as females.

Maisie Yes. And particularly if you’re a woman who is assertive and you know, you know what you want in a particular situation and you express that, then you know, you’re selfish or bossy, you know, insert whatever ever, you know, derogatory word. And men are never spoken about like that. You know, it’s like, oh, they’re confident, they’re powerful. They know what they want, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Jameela He’s passionate.

Maisie Yeah, exactly. But for us, oh no, no, no, we can’t be spoken about like that. We just have all these negative phrases and words used against us. So, you know, it does mean we’re coming up against that in ourselves, but I think that’s a really beautiful but uncomfortable place to be, and a very necessary place to be because when you can come up against that and be okay with that and come through that, then oh my goodness, what is going to then unfold, unfold in your life as a result of being the person who can make a decision and step into what you want to be doing.

Jameela So what do you do if when you are quote unquote assertive, which just means normally decisive, and you are met with resistance and treated as though you’re a bossy nag? What is the play there in your dynamic?

Maisie Oh great question. Well, there’s all sorts of things. I mean, I just like to laugh it off or challenge it and just or just get on with it. And I think that’s the thing is, when you’ve got to the point where you can challenge that internally and you are willing and able to be in that position, then you don’t fucking care what they think or what they’re going to say because you’re already through it. So in preparing to do it and actually doing it, you’ve already navigated the worst of it.

Jameela Well, yeah. And so what I’m not saying is like, how do we keep our men? I just mean, what’s the, there will be natural bristling, right?

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela After someone who hasn’t allowed themselves to do it, and now is trying it out, right? And I find it always good to do it in sort of micro ways at first.

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela I don’t just, I wouldn’t recommend just coming out with all of the big demands. I would say that for me anyway, in dynamics that I’ve been in at work or in relationships or with friends is just to be like, I want to do this.

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela And seeing how it goes. And when you meet resistance over your assertiveness, that’s not your problem. That’s not on you. That’s someone who has not been socialized to see a woman

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela As someone who can assert an idea.

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela And that needs to be challenged in them. That means that they’ve got now some work to do. They need to maybe go and see a life coach or a therapist to figure out why they’re so resistant to an idea that is normally born from a place of trying to make life easier.

Maisie Yeah, but in that we’re coming up against all the societal narratives and expectations of what girls and women are, and we are typically described in ways that are all about our relationship to other people. You know, we’re doting daughters, we’re good friends, we’re colleagues, we’re partners, we’re wives, we’re mothers. And yes, all of those things are true, but that that’s not all of us. And

Jameela Yeah.

Maisie But we’re always valued in terms of our relationship to other people and what we do for other people and how easy and comfortable we make their lives. So when we’re suddenly going, yeah, I’m not going to do that anymore on whatever scale you’re going to do that, then those people are just like what, what? What, what do you mean you’re not going to do that? Right. But some of them will also be thrilled and have a lot of respect for you and think that’s absolutely fantastic. But as you said, the whole time we’re doing this, we are creating evidence that we can do this and it’s okay. And it might feel uncomfortable. It might feel terrifying. It might upset some people, but sometimes it’s not even about like the outcome of these conversations, which does often end up going really well.

Jameela Mhm.

Maisie But it’s also the outcome of I was able to introduce this topic. I was able to say something that mattered to me. I was able to make a request of someone else and survive it, which I know sounds like a dramatic description of it, but on a bodily level, like that’s how we’re experiencing it. We’re thinking, oh, there’s a threat here whether or not there actually is.

Jameela Well, the fear is I’ll be abandoned and then I’ll be on my own, maybe even with my offspring, to fend for myself against all the tigers and lions that are outside and all about high street or

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela Hahaha! That’s very real. It’s the same thing that makes us give in to peer pressure, etc. it’s just this feeling of please don’t leave me behind. And so that is the feeling of a very visceral, real threat. Even though you’re just coming up against someone and in conflict, it feels huge and it feels bigger I notice for my friends who are mothers because there’s more at stake. There’s less like, well, I just get my my shit and go. Suddenly there’s a lot more, there are a lot more decisions to make. And I think you’re right that actually a lot of the men in those relationships feel quite relieved when they find out actually what a woman’s experience has been and they can see the lo, it’s logical. It’s just logical. When someone’s saying, “I’m overwhelmed, please take this off my plate so that we have more of an even share of this amount of labor.” And a lot of men, especially the ones who actually love their partners, go, “Oh yeah, that sounds like a more peaceful way to live. That’s fair. I’d hate that if I were you.” I found it’s often helpful to say to a partner, “Can you just do me a favor and put yourself in my shoes for a second? And I’m just going to play out my day so you can see what it looks like, and then tell me how you would feel in the same scenario.” And that has been immensely helpful in so many different relationships. But we just don’t really do enough in my shoes work.

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela Enough empathy work. And I, I think it’s great that you’re so positive about how it’s likely for this stuff to be received. Talk to me about the stress of decision making, you know, the big question of what do you want to eat for dinner and how something like that could just tip us over the edge.

Maisie Yeah. First of all, nobody wants to be asked that at the end of that day or whatever it is being like, but there’s a question like that. Okay. So let’s say it’s just like a pretty calm, straightforward day. There’s nothing particularly challenging. You haven’t had to make lots of other decisions. And your housemate or your partner says to you, “Oh, you know, what should we have for dinner?” And you might be like, “Oh yeah, we got that recipe book, let’s try, or that thing or oh, I’m really fancying a bit of this.” And you just have the conversation and that’s that. And it might actually be like a point of connection, a point of shared interest.

Jameela Mhm.

Maisie Okay. But then on another day and let’s say like you’ve had a series of stress responses throughout the day that have kind of never got to a point of resolution or kind of coming through it. I often think about it as just like putting rock, having a backpack on at the start of the day, that’s empty, and then maybe even before you leave the house, there’s been some rocks placed in that backpack in terms of like decisions you’ve had to make, things you’ve had to handle in some way. And, you know, maybe you don’t have an opportunity to do something that like distresses and regulates you. So instead of, you know, if you were able to do that, you take those rocks back out again and you kind of start afresh, but instead you’re not able to tend to that kind of stress and things that are going on. And so the the rocks just keep getting added to the backpack and then, you know, you’re coming home so overwhelmed, tired, you know, fed up, etc. walking in the door and someone says to you, “Oh, what should we have for dinner?” And that’s the thing that just like, can floor you at the end of the day and tip you over into rage and annoyance and or just like, collapse on some level.

Jameela And so what’s happening there inside your brain?

Maisie Well, really, it is just that accumulation of things. So often like when we’re talking about stress responses, we’re thinking about, and by the way, I have to frame this as saying stress responses aren’t bad. Okay. Stress responses are there to keep us alive. They serve a great purpose. But basically, when we’re encountering something that is, that we perceive as a threat of some kind that causes our physiology to become aroused in order to respond to a potential threat. So, you know, our heart rate’s going up. We’re often getting tension in our muscles. Blood is being diverted to all the parts of the body that are most required for running away or putting up a fight. So we’ve got, and we and we really feel that on a physical level. I think about times when maybe you suddenly feel your heartbeat thudding in your chest or you, you suddenly get sweaty. So there’s all sorts of these responses that we’re aware of or that we’ve at least experienced. And so, as we’re going throughout the day, there’s just like this buildup of stuff that’s going on. Whereas if we’re bringing awareness to having these stress responses, then we can take a moment and be like, oh, yeah. I’m starting to feel overwhelmed here. Or I’m like, noticing I’m getting quite defensive about things that actually maybe I don’t need to be so defensive about. And I often find for my clients this shows up in conversations like with loving partners who actually are on the same side as them and want the best for them. But that’s coming up, so just like noticing that’s coming up, being able to tend to it in some way

Jameela Right.

Maisie Is really helpful.

Jameela So so a question that I have that a lot of my friends have is the fact that we disassociate from our bodies. Right? We have, we’re so hyper normalized to pain and discomfort, social discomfort and smiling through all of the, pain, etc. that we often aren’t in touch with our bodies. I, in my late 30s, still unable to register when I’m stressed. It doesn’t come out in obvious ways, and I’m not a snappy person, if anything, the more stressed I become, the more I disassociate and the more calm and robotic I tend to become. Also, I do become a bit posh. I become posher when I’m stressed, so maybe that’s maybe that’s it is that when I start to realize that I’m talking like, you know, Her Majesty the Queen, but that’s who I take on when I suddenly feel overwhelmed. And I’ve just developed quite a clipped, curt accent, but I don’t feel my heart rate speeding up. I don’t feel the tension in my shoulders. I don’t feel that sweaty ness. Do you have any? I don’t know if you had any experience with that yourself.

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela Of having to get in touch with your body, but what the fuck am I supposed to do?

Maisie Well, I think it’s, I love that you’ve brought this up because different individuals have varying degrees of the ability to detect these changes.

Jameela Mhm.

Maisie And I think that can also vary for an individual depending on context, the environment they’re in, what’s going on, you know, what particular where they’re going in terms of that stress response. You know, is it fight, flight, or is it freeze which can show up as you know, detaching, feeling overwhelmed, feeling despair, kind of pulling back from the world a bit, not feeling connected to your self, to other people, the world around you. So you know that in itself is like part of that stress response. And we all have we all have our tendencies for where we feel most comfortable in terms of stress responses. So some people are like most comfortable in fight. They feel fine yelling, right, and dealing with things.

Jameela Well, yelling releases dopamine. Yelling like shouting releases a natural dopamine, not a not natural dopamine, a natural painkiller into the system.

Maisie Yeah but but and there will be some people for whom the idea of that is absolutely terrifying to them.

Jameela Yeah.

Maisie And actually their go to is more like feeling a bit numb, feeling a bit detached, but they’re both safety mechanisms. They just have like different behaviors. And so we all have different levels of awareness. I, I’m autistic and some autistic people have less awareness of what’s going on in their bodies, including the ability to detect, name emotions and feel bodily sensations. I’m at the other end of things in terms of I really feel absolutely everything.

Jameela Wow.

Maisie And I have a very high level of awareness, so but this isn’t something that just applies to people who are autistic. It applies to the general population as well, although there’s certain, you know, people who are going to be more affected by that.

Jameela And also how free you were as a child, maybe, to express

Maisie Yes. All of this.

Jameela Your feelings. Right.

Maisie All of this comes in.

Jameela Yeah because I I I grew up in a very repressive household where there was no room for my feelings because any resistance I had was met with like a suicide attempt or a threat for someone to stop eating or leave the house when I was as young as three years old, so I have such trauma around big feelings that I’ve learned to just suppress it, suppress my rage, suppress everything about myself, which I think is what caused my, you know, depression. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. More people, unfortunately, than we probably imagine, that some someone diminished our sense of feeling the right to express ourselves. And I don’t think that that’s entirely gendered, but I, I have experienced it mostly with women. And it’s, it’s the little the titles like The Bossy and the this that and the other. Oh, how dare you, you know. And also our anger isn’t seen as an emotion, but all other, but especially when it’s on a man, but all emotions that are demonstrable beyond placid on a woman are labeled emotions and are so quickly characterized as a form of hysteria. And so there’s also a part of you as an adult that learns, well, I don’t want to be seen as out of control. I don’t want to be seen as hysterical.

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela So I must speak in this dulcet tone very slowly. And what happens is I just push it down in my body and then I get like a kidney stone or something. But I do, I just want people who are out there to know that like, to know the lineage of where this can come from, to look for the lineage of where these patterns come from right?

Maisie Yeah. And it can definitely be related to trauma and, you know, adverse childhood experiences, etc. And it can also be just about in terms of what we were exposed to, so not necessarily trauma but what was modeled to us. And have we seen particular things modeled to us or not. And like, you know, even in a, you know, pretty loving, safe household, there are things that are still okay and things that are less okay, so but you know, but you’re right, there’s so many things that do come into this. But to go back to your point about, well, you know what, if you are someone, for whatever reason, that is less able to detect or have the awareness and of what’s going on for you is to think, well, it’s it’s not just about what you’re feeling, it’s about like, what are the behaviors that are coming out? So what are the things that that you’re doing that you’re kind of, indicators that there might be something going on, that there might be something at play. So for some of my clients, they they will know, oh, there’s these particular actions that I will do particular behaviors when I’m feeling upset. Well, there’s other things that I more like you do when I’m angry. So even if they’re not able to catch it internally, they can see what’s going on externally. And hopefully if they’ve got nice, loving people around them, then they might be saying, oh, noticing that this is going on. Like even for me, I’m very self-aware, a great deal of feeling going on here and a lot of awareness. But still, there will be times that I miss stuff and my lovely partner Paul will be like, “I know you’re saying that you’re not stressed and okay, but, you know, I’m just noticing that you’re doing this and you’re doing that, and maybe that’s a sign that you might need to do this and that.”

Jameela And why is this so important? I can gather why it’s so important, but I think we need to kind of stress how vital this is because this is so not prioritized.

Maisie Yeah. The biggest thing for me is that we add narratives to our behaviors, whether they’re internal ones or, you know, ways that we talk about ourselves, to other people, the way other people talk about us, the way we talk about other people. We just attach this narrative to it, and our brains just fill in the blanks and take shortcuts of like, oh, well, if they’re behaving this way or they’re saying this, then that must also mean blah, blah, blah. And we create this whole narrative about ourselves and about other people. And with that comes a lot of inner judgment of ourselves, you know, particularly in terms of like stress responses. If you’re in a situation and you’re struggling like, maybe just having a conversation with someone, but you’re struggling with it, it feels challenging to you for some reason. And you just think like you, you stop kind of being able to converse with the person because you’re going into a freeze response because you feel overwhelmed or this used to happen to me. I’ve had this conversation with many of my clients where they’ll be talking to their partners. There’ll be something like slightly confrontational to do with that, that conversation, and in their heads they’re just thinking, “Oh, why am I even with this person? I should just leave. I need to get out of here. What? Why why am I with them? Why am I with them?”

Jameela Which is, by the way, your brain going danger, danger. I when I see this person’s face, I think of all the stress that they cause you. I want to keep you away from that stress. You need to get away from that person, and in some instances your brain is completely correct. But in some instances, your brain has learned a pattern from something that is resolvable.

Maisie Yeah. So then we’re just like, oh, this is the flight response kicking into gear without judging ourselves for having that response. And then as you say, we get to look at that and think, well, is that appropriate here? Do I actually want to flee this situation? And like you said, sometimes, yes, 100%. Let’s go with that. Let’s get out of here. Other times, like for me, I’m like, this guy’s great. He respects me, he loves me, he wants the best for me. But here I am, just because he said something, you know, that is vaguely challenging to me like, let’s get out of here. So understanding that, like, that’s just one example of many, the many, many ways that we attach meaning and narrative to our behaviors. And we just like, and we do that for the other people too. So I recently coached a client on this and she hadn’t realized, but she had like leapt to all sorts of conclusions about something that her partner was doing, and she was making it mean that he doesn’t care about me. He doesn’t actually love me because if he loved me, then he would do X, Y, and Z.

Jameela Wow.

Maisie So we can end up like conflating all these things, and then when we look at it more in terms of like, well, like what are the facts of the situation here? And she just described it in the most neutral kind of objective way possible. And then we were like, okay, so according to your brain, what is the evidence that this person doesn’t care about you and doesn’t love you? And sometimes, as you said, there will be things that you’re like, yeah, this is going on, this is going on, I’m not happy about that. But a lot of the time when I’m having these conversations with my clients, thankfully they’re like, actually, there’s lots of evidence that this person really cares for me.

Jameela Yeah, I definitely have to fight that urge to just be like, well, I’m gonna get the fuck out of here every time I argue with anyone. I have a huge flight response. And because I have a sort of, I don’t know, it’s like an object permanence. It means that when someone’s out of sight, they’re completely out of mind for me, so I have this wild mechanism in which I can just disconnect so like spookily, easily. And everyone I’ve ever dated or been friends with is afraid of this quality of me, but I think it comes from like a combination of trauma and whatever however I’m wired, that means I have this, and I work really hard to fight that urge because I know that ultimately is not good for me. And even if I feel fine without these people, I wouldn’t be fine. I would miss them tremendously, and I’m just panicking. And what understanding stresses and stress responses, not only in myself but in other people, has done has increased my empathy and given me increased sense of being, I don’t mean in control of other people, but being in control of the situation in which I can understand someone therefore they are less of a mystery and therefore less of a threat to me. So when I can see my inner child and their inner child coming out, and I can imagine the dopamine drop from the rejection of the thing that I just said, or I can imagine the cortisol rise from the stressful or accusatory thing I’ve said. I can see like, okay, pull it back. Like I never let us raise our voices anymore in arguments because I know that that’s going to create havoc, so we have like sort of ground rules and we’ll stop to take deep breath sometimes just to like, chill it the fuck out so we can actually communicate. But understanding that with my friends, my colleagues and my partner has totally reformed my sense of safety and it makes me not want to run anymore because I’m running

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela I was running because I didn’t understand what was happening, and I was placing every action of other people as I was, I was naming it as a moral decision. They are choosing to be a dick right now rather than this situation, or I have triggered a stress response in them and now they are just trying to protect themselves.

Maisie Yeah, and there’s so many different factors at play, but when you look at it in terms of, okay, I am an organism with a physiology. They are an organism with their physiology, and together those different like systems are interacting with each other.

Jameela Well, you talk in the book about conflict and hard conversations. I would love to get into that with you because I think that some of this leads to those.

Maisie Yeah, because a lot of this is like, especially with everything that’s going on in the world right now, it’s like, can we go through a challenge together? Be in a challenging conversation where perhaps there’s even conflict whilst being connected to ourselves, connected to the other person and what’s going on around us? Because when you can do that, that’s where we really grow our resilience, our capacity for understanding ourselves, our capacity for understanding others.

Jameela Mhm.

Maisie And to be in that challenge. That, for me, that’s what the world needs right now more than ever. And if we can do that on a micro level in day to day conversations, it shifts so much because then we can actually have conversations. And it’s understandable when people feel so challenged by that, that they think, oh, it’s actually better that I don’t have this conversation. And there might be times when it’s like, yeah, that’s the kindest thing to do right now, is to press pause on this conversation. Everyone takes care of themselves and comes back to it when they’re able to. But we can get into a place where we’re just avoiding having the conversation at all because we’re so terrified of it.

Jameela Could I ask you a personal question?

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela Okay. So regarding autism.

Maisie Yes.

Jameela Do you find it harder to hold in the thought or the feeling that you’re having, given that sometimes people, we talked about this last time on the podcast when you were on and we’ve talked about it, that given that there’s a sort of straightforward path to making your point clearly, but you were talking about the fact that the kinder thing to do is sometimes not always say the thing. Has that been a sort of muscle you’ve had to work to learn

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela When is the right time to say something? Because we also have a lot of people who are neurodivergent and and to exist within the autism community who listen to this podcast. And I think when they hear these conversations, and you have written this book very much so from the point of view of, obviously you are someone with autism, but you also have lots of clients who are, you know, at various ends, at various different spectrums, so this is a very universal book for everyone. But I think sometimes autistic people feel as though, well, that’s all great for you, neurotypicals. What am I supposed to do with the fact that I sometimes can’t always gauge when it is an inappropriate time to say the thing that I need to say? Is that okay to ask?

Maisie That’s such, it is okay to ask. And it’s such an interesting thing because I’m, I’m checking in with myself here.

Jameela Mhm.

Maisie My, it’s interesting because I am often like having a, having a very direct response to someone internally, but through masking, through being socialized as female and the way all these things intersect together, I think I’ve gone most of my life holding back from saying things.

Jameela Mhm.

Maisie So my work has actually been, as it is for many of my clients, actually saying things, but then I’m in that, coming up against I know I’m just being direct but other people perceive it as I’m being rude or being cold or, you know, whatever negative description you want to go with. But honestly, like, I’m what 43 now. I’m just like, fuck it. I’m just going to say things and you might not be okay with it, but I’m not going to swoop in and try and make it okay for you.

Jameela No, but there are ways of softening the language. No?

Maisie There are, but

Jameela Hahaha! Your face when I said that! Haha!

Maisie But I’m going to question why we need to.

Jameela Okay, I’m down for this.

Maisie Right?

Jameela Yeah.

Maisie Because then we’re talking about the prioritization of neurotypicals.

Jameela Right.

Maisie People who aren’t autistic, people who don’t have ADHD, brains, etc., people who don’t communicate this way. And as someone who’s autistic, I have to say, we may be direct. We may see, say things that you perceive as rude, that doesn’t mean they are actually rude. For us, like we’re often just the I will say things I, oh my gosh, when I hear people talking and they are saying something that I believe to be factually incorrect. And this is like strangers just around me having conversations. It is so hard for me not to correct them. But that’s because of my strong sense of like justice and belief that if people have information, then they can make best slash safe decisions. You know, it benefits everyone. It’s not me saying you’re wrong and like

Jameela Or I’m superior to you.

Maisie Being rude to that person. I’m doing something that I think benefits all of us, including that person.

Jameela Totally, totally. And I, I, I hear you and I understand. I totally understand the thinking of the fact that as a, as a someone who is neurodivergent, it is, infuriating to have to filter yourself for people who sometimes talk in between the lines, or there’s kind of hidden meanings in what they’re saying or just kind of,

Maisie Well, it’s just it’s a lot of work.

Jameela Yeah, it’s a lot of work to, it’s a lot of decoding. Right? But

Maisie Yeah, I’m like, what do you mean by that? What? Can you just make the clear, explicit request so I know what you mean?

Jameela Totally totally totally. This is something I struggle with. I totally I totally feel you. But I’m going to just challenge you with, based on what I’ve read in your book, right, is that the stress response? I understand the urge that, of course we shouldn’t, if we’re saying something that is true and not ill intended, we shouldn’t have to pussyfoot around it, right? We shouldn’t have to mollycoddle someone else regardless.Neurotypical, neurodivergent, whatever. But when we don’t package things as carefully as we can, what we can do is we can trigger their stress response. Right? And that is something that I think that I’m trying to at least be cognizant of because they’ve got their own childhood traumas, they’ve got their own shit as to how they communicate, and they can feel very easily, they might have an ego problem. That is, we’ve turned an ego problem into something that’s really fucking annoying, and it is sometimes, but it’s also a genuine affliction to live with, right? Where you have an incredibly fragile ego that almost takes control over your sense and sensibility. Is there an argument for saying the true thing, but just trying to learn how to package it carefully for your own sake, not for their sake? Not looking at it as something you do for the other person, but something you’re doing so that your message can be communicated as clearly and effectively as possible because their guard isn’t up, their cortisol levels aren’t high, their blood is still in the brain. Do you know what I mean?

Maisie I do know what you mean.

Jameela I’m I’m I’m inviting, I’m inviting you to consider it. I’m not trying to, like, push back on your own personal experience as a neurodivergent person.

Maisie No, and this is something that I reflect on a lot. And I think because let’s be real, my experience as someone who’s autistic is, well, first of all, we’re not a monolith. Everyone has their own, you know, different flavors of autism and you know, and how it is for them. But also, you know, I’ve got a fair bit of privilege going on over here, and it’s not like I’m working for someone else and needing to show up and exist in environments and structures of oppression that a lot of autistic people cannot even exist in. I mean, I can’t remember what the statistic is, I think it’s something like 15 or 20% of autistic people are have jobs and are employed.

Jameela Yeah. It’s insane.

Maisie So and I have my own company. I’m an entrepreneur. Don’t get me wrong, that comes with a lot of challenges and my autism sure as hell affects my ability to do that, but I’m in a position where I can set things up in a certain way that suits the way I operate, the way that my brain works. So the reason I say all that is because often, to go back to your question is sometimes it’s harder for me to answer that because of the position that I am in.

Jameela Right.

Maisie In terms of I have people around me who I get on with, who I can communicate with, and I’m not always, like rubbing up against the same kind of issues that other autistic people will so

Jameela And other people will, autistic or not, as I said,

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela Like packaging your words as carefully as you can has a greater probability, normally it’s fucking annoying. Don’t get me wrong, it’s fucking annoying. I just want to throw shit sometimes. I want to throw shit. I want to break shit, but I can’t because I’ll make that other person feel threatened. Or I want to tell them that they’re a fucking twat, but I can’t because it, it just builds up their defense and then I’ve lost them. Then they’re no longer here. They are in whichever place they go to when they feel unsafe. And now I’m the the they feel like I’m the the threat and they want to get away from me. And they have no desire to empathize with me anymore because I’ve, I’ve demonstrated something that doesn’t feel like it’s good for them. That the way we have to sort of ease through these things is fucking frustrating, but it does tend to create conflict resolve, and I imagine you’ve probably seen this sometimes with your clients, right?

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela It’s sometimes just like just moderating, just leaving the labels out, leaving the judgment out, and just saying the thing about what your experience is clearly.

Maisie Yeah. And I think a lot of this comes down to like, self-responsibility.

Jameela Which you talk about in the book. Yeah.

Maisie And if everyone in the conversation is doing their part to be self responsible, i.e. not abdicating responsibility and blaming other people or external factors for things, but also not being over responsible, which is what we can end up doing a lot of the time.

Jameela What do you mean by that?

Maisie So I mean by that is like feeling like being overly responsible for how other people feel.

Jameela Mhm.

Maisie So taking care of other people or trying to manage their responses and say things in a certain way so that they are okay and therefore we are okay because if they’re okay, then they’re not going to behave in ways that could be harmful for me.

Jameela Mhm.

Maisie So this is where, like, sometimes things like hypervigilance can come in, but there’s like varying degrees of that as well. It doesn’t have to get to that point of hypervigilance, but it’s basically, well, if you’re okay and you’re not yelling or you’re not coming after me or, you know, whatever our experiences in life may have been or what we, you know, our imagination comes up with, you know, how someone might behave, you know, that’s what we’re trying to do. We’re just trying to take care of ourselves.

Jameela Then are there ground rules set in order for people to show up to a difficult conflict with self responsibility?

Maisie  I think that’s a really smart way of of looking, a really smart way of looking at it. And just think, okay, if we’re going to have this conversation, what would support you? Here’s what I think would be useful for me. Here’s what I know about myself. You know, like actually just do some of that up front.

Jameela Yeah.

Maisie And it doesn’t mean you have to do it for every conversation, because even sometimes you just being clear for yourself what works for you, what is okay for you, you might not even have to communicate that with other people, because it just becomes who you are and how you do things.

Jameela Yeah, I think I think introducing it into a new dynamic or conflict can be interesting because there are things that we just didn’t consider. And then after a while, you’d hope, especially with someone who cares for you and who you care about, that becomes a kind of muscle memory.

Maisie Yes. I will say I’ve been with Paul for ten years, living together that whole entire time, and recently we had a conversation that was really illuminating, like literally two weeks ago. And basically we both realized there’s this thing that I do that he does not, that he doesn’t, we just we just operate differently, basically. And I do this thing that he doesn’t. And now we’re suddenly like, oh, right. So the issues we have in our relationship from time to time is about that I can perceive things in this certain way that he doesn’t. And it just I don’t want to get too much into the personal details of it, but it was just sometimes, yes, it’s the muscle memory. You get to know someone and you kind of, you adjust to each other and you can meet each other in those spaces. But sometimes even ten years down the line, you can find something out about your partner and you and your friends and be like, “Oh!”

Jameela I’m big on feedback. I’m big on when tensions aren’t high going, is there a way that I could work on, you know, my conduct? And I’m sometimes saying that because I do want to know, but I’d also like to open up the chat to then be able to say, “Oh, that’s cool. Okay, I’ll work on that. Would you like to know some things that would be helpful for me?” So it’s not not self-serving, but it is very helpful because now tensions aren’t high because someone’s emotions don’t need to be regulated. And that has been very helpful. Like James taught me about the shit sandwich, which is where

Maisie Oh yeah.

Jameela You say the nice thing and then the difficult thing, then the nice thing. And that’s been really helpful to me. And I’ve taken that everywhere now because I just lead with the, you know, I’m just looking for patterns of what doesn’t work all the time, everywhere in life, everything I look at. And that makes me sound cynical or negative or blah, blah, blah, blah blah. But that’s just how my brain works. I’m always looking for the problem solve. And so I’ll lead if he’s, you know, talking about showing me something or talking about an idea, and I’ll be like, well, this is what’s wrong with the idea, and that’s what wrong with that idea. And he was like, not fun or helpful, but I was like, that is very fair. I didn’t, I did not consider that that would because I don’t feel that way, because when people, all I want to know when I show someone something is what’s wrong with it. I don’t want to know what they think about it. Flattery doesn’t mean anything to me. Compliments just annoy me until I know what’s wrong with it. I hate it when people, I hate a shit sandwich. I just love shit on a plate. I just want shit on a plate. Breadless. Keto, you know, keto shit. You know, just no carbs. Just give it to me. And it doesn’t bother me at all, and I don’t feel offended by it, so I presume, I give that feedback back similarly. But he was like, you rub people up the wrong way, and then they can’t really hear the important or like, help, maybe helpful things you have to say. I  was like, okay, tried it, revolutionized, revolutionized my life. Completely changed it. Wish he told me much earlier than 8 years in, but he didn’t. And so I too like later in life learning to, you know, because the problem is also like there’s been such a wave of like, oh my God, we’re all so we’re so ourselves. I’m so authentic. I’m so deep. And so we’ve been sort of, I don’t know, I think especially as women, we’ve gone from not saying how we feel to then saying everything we feel in a huge wave of women’s empowerment and then not having time to assess. A helpful way of putting that information out all the time. So I get you, I feel you. But I do like a calm ground rule.

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela You know, a bit like a bit like saying something maybe that you don’t love, not not something that makes you feel uncomfortable but something you don’t love during sex. Like in the moment when someone’s super vulnerable and they’ve got their genitals out, is not the time to be like, oh, why are kissing me like that? But maybe later, just just get it and maybe just get through, if it’s something simple that isn’t causing you any kind of trauma or harm. Later, be like, hey, you know how we kissed? I feel like it’d be so sexy to kiss, try kissing like this instead, or do this instead. I used to do this especially when I was younger with my other partners. The difference it makes saying it in the vulnerable moment versus later when someone doesn’t have the arousal.

Maisie But this, yeah

Jameela They’ve got their clothes on.

Maisie But this is what’s going on in stress response. There is an arousal. There is something going on. And I love that you brought this up, because I think the more we can have these conversations, when we’re kind of feeling all right, we’re like, we’re not in it. We haven’t just like come in the door after really stressful day or not, in the midst of trying to deal with something that is challenging for us. So if we can practice having those conversations when actually we’re pretty all right, the other person’s all right, you know, and navigate it during those times, then it becomes easier to navigate them when we are experiencing greater stress.

Jameela So what do we tell someone to do if they’re like, oh god, things are nice. We’re having a really nice Sunday. We’re having like tea and toast and we’re in the, I don’t know, we’re out in the garden having a nice morning. This feels like a really peaceful, lovely time to be able to have this conversation from a loving place. But you’re afraid of, like, rocking the boat and bringing up this potentially contentious discussion. I say go for it. What do you say?

Maisie I mean, I say go for it as well.

Jameela Great.

Maisie Again. But, well, with my coach hat on, I’m like, why would you think this conversation means we’re going to stop having a nice time? Like we can, and this is the whole thing it’s just all about that connection with ourselves with another, without having any of these things go on. Be like, yeah, you’re right. This is so lovely. Such a nice afternoon. It’s the perfect time for us to have this conversation.

Jameela Interesting.

Maisie And then if they’re like, I don’t really think it is. I’m like, okay, cool. Do you want to have it on like Wednesday in the middle of your working week when you’re feeling stressed out with things? I really like, I don’t want to have the conversation then because I don’t think it’s going to go great, and this is important, so why don’t we talk about it now? Or it can be like, well, why are you concerned about talking about this now? Right. Because then that might open up like, well, actually, even though it’s a fine conversation for you and maybe not even that big a deal, it’s bringing something else up in them that we may have no idea what that thing is, so we’re just like collecting data in advance of having the conversation, and that can take us into the conversation.

Jameela Amazing. So tell me what you most want people to take away from this book. What are you most excited for with people reading this book?

Maisie I just want people to stop judging themselves for who they are and how they react and respond to things. That’s really what the book is about. Just understanding yourself, having compassion and just thinking, oh yeah, this is this is part of the human experience because if there’s one thing I know from coaching so many people on group calls is that there will always be again and again, someone will get coached and think it is just them who is experiencing this way. Doesn’t matter what it is, they will always think this only happens to me. No one else has this going on and everyone else on the call was like, oh yeah, this is the thing for me too. Maybe not in the same scenario, but it shows up in my life in this place. And so the more we talk about our experiences and then suddenly, we’re like, oh yeah, this is just a human thing. We’re all just humans having a human experience. That’s all this means. And to stop piling on the judgment and shame and actually have a respectful and compassionate relationship with ourselves, that’s what I want.

Jameela Yeah. Judgment is a direct enemy to authenticity.

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela To the authenticity we allow ourselves and the authenticity that we make space for in others. And so I really appreciate that. I really appreciate you always bringing it down to hormones and fact so that people can’t argue with it because these this is just data. This is science. And I think I’ve been talking about this and writing about this for a while about the science of humans, and sometimes people say, well, it’s a bit clinical. It’s a bit of a cold way of looking at people. And, and actually, I feel as though it’s never made me feel warmer about everyone

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela Because I’m like, oh, fucking hell I can see what’s happening, or I can see what we’re doing to each other here. And it’s never made me feel more close to people and more like this is a universal experience.

Maisie That’s so, I’m so fascinated by these people who think that’s a really cold way to look at things because my experience, my clients, anyone who’s read my books, anyone who listens to, you know, either of our podcasts, I’m pretty sure would disagree with every cell in their body with that. There’s like, how is that possible that that’s a cold, that just makes no sense to my brain. No, I reject that.

Jameela Because I think it because I think I think it take I think people think it takes away their agency and it makes them feel as if, I think it takes away people’s feeling of being unique or having a unique experience, or having a unique reaction to their unique life. And I just think it’s so unifying and so I can see why it could maybe make someone feel like invalidated in some way. But I just think, God, isn’t it lovely that we kind of both have a baseline ish for a lot of the responses and emotions that we have?

Maisie Yeah.

Jameela And it’s not a choice, but it is a responsibility to try to investigate and try to override as best you can. You’re great. I adore you. I want you to come back every day on this podcast, and I appreciate your dedication to power. It very much so comes in line with your dedication to justice and to fixing things and combating things that aren’t a truth. And everyone should go buy the book. Listen to Maisie’s podcast. Read all her other books. She is a great voice of sense in our generation.

Maisie Oh thank you.

Jameela Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and research by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimmie Gregory, and Amelia Chappelow. And the beautiful music that you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. And if you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. It’s such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at I Weigh we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording sharing what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners.

Listener I’d like to say that I weigh, as everyone would say, their family, their friends, my intelligence, my love for movies, my love for dancing, my love for languages. I love learning languages. I’m obsessed with learning as many as possible. I weigh my humor. I think I’m funny. I weigh my creativity. I weigh my love for travel. I weigh my love for connecting with other people. And, yeah, alright, that’s it really.