EP. 123 — Cameron Esposito

Jameela [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, a podcast against shame. I hope you’re well. I am. You know what? I’m having a bit of a surreal week, if I’m honest. I have had the poster just dropped for my new character, Titania, in Marvel’s new big show, She-Hulk, which is out on August the 18th on Disney Plus. And it’s only really starting to truly hit home now. Seeing my name and then seeing the character Titania’s name together is mind blowing because I have always loved this character, as was my favorite character from the comics. I think she’s so bizarre and complex. And I, I often think if I’d known I was playing her when I auditioned because obviously Marvel don’t tell you fuck all. And it’s not until you sign the contract that you even have any idea who you’re playing. But I, I, yeah, I think I wouldn’t have gotten the job if I knew how big this was. I thought I was just playing a sort of tiny cameo who doesn’t have any action. And honestly, that was quite appealing to me because I’m very lazy and I don’t like doing a lot of exercise. And also I have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, which means that I have a very complicated body and health condition and my joints dislocate a lot and I’m super, super bendy. Not, not not only in the hot way, also in the very inconvenient and unsafe way. And I generally, I’m just not like a super fit or super well person. So I can’t actually believe that even after finding out I had a Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. Marvel were just like, Yep, you can still do it. You’re doing all your own stunts, almost all my own stunts. Obviously, I had the most amazing stunt crew around me to support me, but I did like 90% of my own stunts and they just got me a physiotherapist to be with me on set because they are the best. And it honestly shows me that I really cannot stress enough that we have no idea what we’re capable of and we write ourselves off for so many opportunities so early. If you told me 20 years ago that I would be playing a super active supervillain in Marvel, I would have laughed you out of my house. And so I hope you can join me in my delusional girl Summer, because if I can do it, you can do anything. Honestly, I’m such a basic lazy bitch. If I can pull this shit off, you can do anything. Take this message as your reminder to fuckin cut the roof off your expectations and just shoot for the stars. Because you never know, guys. You never. You literally never know. I had no idea this was coming, especially as I’m pushing 40. Good God, what the hell is going on? Anyway, I’m very thrilled. And I hope you like the show. And I hope you hate my character because that’s what I’m trying to do with her. And I think if there was anyone built to play a fucking nightmare who people love to hate, it’s me. It’s this guy. Anyway, moving on to more important subjects, it is my guest, Cameron Esposito, who, if you don’t know, oh, you have to check out Cameron’s work. What a podcaster. What an actor. What a fucking force in our generation. We talk about so many important issues like Cameron’s relationship with their body and how struggling with their gender identity manifested in disordered eating. We talk about what gender fluidity means to them and how oddly it was TikTok that help them come to understand it deeper, and especially the younger generation. We discuss how empowered Cameron felt, taking their top off on network television after years of struggling with body image. And we talk about mental health in general in such detail and in such a beautiful and open and honest way. I really felt a kinship with Cameron and was so in love with how open they were on this podcast and how open they are generally in their life and how they pull all of their pain out and turn it into something beautiful to give to other people. And so enjoy this episode and please follow Cameron everywhere because they’re the fucking best. This is Cameron Esposito. Cameron Esposito, welcome to I Weigh. How are you?

Cameron [00:04:46] Oh, hi, Jameela. I’m good, I. Yeah, I went for a bike ride this morning and.

Jameela [00:04:51] Smug go straight in with smug.

Cameron [00:04:54] Yeah. Yeah, well, what I’m trying to say is I am not really in. I can’t really do that yet. So I am sitting, but I feel wobbly on my legs, you know what I mean? That’s that’s how you know, you’re so you know, you’re like, ready to ride a bike is when it’s hard to sit afterwards.

Jameela [00:05:14] Okay. Cameron But not everyone can ride a bike, okay? So don’t just come on here. I’d like you to acknowledge your privilege, actually, because some people like me are dyspraxic and we can’t balance and we’ve never been able to ride a bike even when ah even when we were 30 and our boyfriend’s mother is a fucking bike instructor and even she can I mean now no one can convince me that I’m capable of it. It’s just not for me.

Cameron [00:05:38] Something I really like is giving up. When things don’t work.

Jameela [00:05:44] Oh my God, I’m just like a quitter.

Cameron [00:05:46] Well, just like, sometimes it’s not going to happen, so just giving up, it’s. That’s.

Jameela [00:05:51] So did you have a big give up?

Cameron [00:05:54] No, it’s something I’m practicing. Like I am somebody who always tries real hard and has like a bit of a.

Jameela [00:06:02] Disgusting.

Cameron [00:06:01] I know. Has like a bit of like a Phenix complex where it’s like, if you defeat me, I will come back stronger from the ashes. This is a terrible way to live. Sometimes just lay in the fucking ashes is something I’m learning. That’s a very valuable.

Jameela [00:06:17] It’s, oh, a hundred that’s my address.

Cameron [00:06:19] Your address? The ashes?

Jameela [00:06:19] By the way, if you ever want to say just -the ashes, yeah. That’s where I exist. I have absolutely no I have no fight in me whilst simultaneously balancing a deep love of revenge. But revenge that I can’t be bothered to then exact upon people. So it’s just sit here, I think it keeps me young. I think I’m full. I think that’s why my boobs are big, they’re just full of revenge. Revenge that never got out because I never actually did anything about it. But I lay in the ashes

Cameron [00:06:46] Oh. My boobs are big. Is that what’s going on? Because I’m actually I would love for them to be smaller.

Jameela [00:06:49] So then you need to get the you need to you need to not lay in the ashes, you need to get it out of your system.

Cameron [00:06:53] Okay alright.

Jameela [00:06:54] That’s what needs to happen. No. So, yeah, you sort of lactate. No, never mind. Okay. This is going down a whole new avenue, but I yeah, I give up. I mean, if, if anyone had been vying for any of the people I’ve dated at the same time as me, I would have immediately laid down and just been like, No, you take it. I’m getting in the way of love. Like I have no grit.

Cameron [00:07:13] Oh god, we are such different guys.

Jameela [00:07:16] I know.

Cameron [00:07:17] We are diametrically opposed that is.

Jameela [00:07:20] But I think it’s really great. I think it’s going to be a really amazing day in the universe because we’re balancing each other out now that we’ve met. It’s like the fifth element.

Cameron [00:07:30] Exactly thank god.

Jameela [00:07:30] It’s like fire and water meeting. Obviously I’m water.

Cameron [00:07:32] Thank God! Oh, is this what’s been wrong? Because, you know, it’s been a tough couple of years. Was it just that we didn’t know each other yet?

Jameela [00:07:38] I think that’s what it is. I think the last six years has been especially, you know, maybe the climate’s going to get better today. I don’t know. I feel like maybe the ice caps are going to re re ice.

Cameron [00:07:47] Yes.

Jameela [00:07:51] Well, this has gotten off to a strong and weird start. Um, I really, I, I love meeting people who are extremely different to me because I feel as though I’ve got a lot to learn. I think that’s why I was especially excited to have you on the podcast because I think you are such a beautiful communicator about such a variety of different things, and I think it’s extremely cool the way that you’ve used your journey to be able to make other I mean, whether or not it was even to do this, to make people feel less alone. The way that you’ve chosen to discuss any of your thoughts or your fears or your traumas or your I don’t know, your your battles in your wins has been public. And I know that people have been very helped by your work. And so I’m really stoked that you’re here.

Cameron [00:08:36] Look at my big smile. You know what it was? It was it was initially so that I would feel less alone, like, I love that other people maybe have benefited. But you know, I was raised in a super Catholic or Italian Catholic household and I didn’t know gay people were real. And I also thought that it was a choice that you made that just sent you right to hell, which was a real place with fire and an actual devil, you know, confusing stuff. And so I didn’t know anybody like me. And then gender has always been confounding to me, even like before we were talking about that as a culture, you know, like as a kid, I just knew that something was like off. Other people also seemed to notice that I had something different going on because I got a lot of feedback and I think.

Jameela [00:09:27] What kind of feedback that you’re getting.

Cameron [00:09:30] Yeah, I mean, when I was a little kid, one thing that I got told all the time by other kids and their parents was that I was fat, which is really interesting feedback because I. Maybe had like some baby fat on me or was like slightly chubby for a few years, but mostly I was not fat. And I just say this to say it’s like it really was. That’s how. That’s how without context gender stuff was when I was a kid because it just felt people were just looking at me and they couldn’t even come up with like the right way to make fun of me.

Jameela [00:10:11] So they were like, something doesn’t fit.

Cameron [00:10:13] They were like, I think, Are you fat? Like, what is it? Like, what do we notice about you? And I mean, I think what it was is that I’m like a middle thing, you know, like, I’m a gender fluid person and. The person that I feel the most looks like me in the planet was David Bowie, you know, and I don’t even know if we look alike, but that’s when I look at David Bowie. I go, That’s me. So I think when I was a kid. You know, people really didn’t know how to receive me. And yeah, I got a lot of feedback about my body, which sucked. Giving a kid feedback about their body, actually. Blows. It’s the worst.

Jameela [00:10:54] And I mean, it triggered a whole journey for you. Like a very kind of downward spiral regarding your body.

Cameron [00:11:02] Yeah, I mean, well, disordered eating. And, like, I started dieting at a super young age, one of my first diet where I was weighing and measuring food when I was in sixth grade. And like, that’s just it’s so sad, you know? And then I was extremely thin for a period of time, like real, real thin. And I also think that, again, because there’s like gender stuff going on that was sort of at the same time I was going through puberty and my body just like genetically, I think, wanted to be a little curvy. And so also staying really, really thin was sort of a way that I could control that, you know, where it was. Like I looked more like what I thought like a boy would look like because I wasn’t able to really be a girl. I mean, I had like long hair and was dating men and was like really confused about what was going on for me. But yeah, this is something I still work on, you know, like still work on understanding that, like, I have a body that’s okay for the gender that I am.

Jameela [00:12:12] Yes. And you were saying that, you know, you wanted to be able to discuss that gender experience as well. You are gender nonconforming. You kind of would refer to yourself, I guess, at times as gender fluid. Can you explain that? Because sometimes people on the podcast are either I’m non-binary or I’m trans. I think that we haven’t had a chance to talk to so many people who kind of we’ve had some people who talk about it, but kind of people who are kind of somewhere in between the two kind of flip between the masculine and the feminine. I would love to hear more about that.

Cameron [00:12:45] Yeah, I mean, and maybe non-binary is like an umbrella term that that all of this would fit under or it’s like the most popular term right now. But for me, the reason like fluid makes a lot of sense is because sometimes I feel like a woman. Like sometimes in my body, I feel like a woman. Or sometimes in relationship to another person. I feel like a woman. Like if you and I were hanging out, there are some experiences that we’ve had because we’ve been cultured female. Where like, you and I would be able to talk about stuff that like a person who was raised as a dude wouldn’t have had those experiences. So I might feel kinship with you. But also, like, sometimes I might feel no kinship with you experientially. You know, like, I might look at say just the way that you present in the world. And it eludes me how anybody. Could look like you like could present like you. And so sometimes I feel like not a woman at all, since I think as a society, we sort of hold a pretty a pretty narrow view of what womanhood is. So, like, for instance, I was watching a Fboy Island recently. Do you like this show?

Jameela [00:13:56] I’ve heard about this show, and I know I would like the show. I haven’t seen it.

Cameron [00:13:59] It’s. Well, most of the. A lot of the show takes place in swimsuits. People are wearing swimsuits.

Jameela [00:14:07] Horrifying.

Cameron [00:14:07] Yeah, well, I mean, me.

Jameela [00:14:08] For me. Great for them.

Cameron [00:14:09] The women on the show seem to feel okay in a swimsuit or like at least like it looks like something that I don’t know how to do. Like just the way that they hold their bodies, never knowing how to do it. It’s also something that’s like beyond tomboy for me because, like, I was a tomboy as a kid.

Jameela [00:14:29] Oh, yeah yeah.

Cameron [00:14:29] I don’t I also haven’t dated a cis dude in, you know, 20 years at this point. And so I also don’t fit into a framework that, like, I don’t relate to men in a way that is at all sexual. And I think that’s a it’s like a pretty interesting way to live. Sometimes I forget people are into men. Like, I remember when I saw the movie Carol in the theater, I felt so embarrassed because I was like it was like a hot movie. I felt like I was having. I was feeling kind of sexy watching it. And I felt like, Oh, my God, I’m in a theater and I supposed to feel sexy in a theater. This is like so inappropriate. And then I realized, wait a minute, have people been feeling this way about movies like the whole time? Like when people watch Brad Pitt in a love scene, are they having a sexy experience? Because I’m mostly looking at, like, the lighting. It’s like his hair.

Jameela [00:15:30] No, I think that’s really fascinating. And so so on a like kind of day to day basis, can it be during the day? You’re just kind of you’re just existing within all of the kind of different elements of the spectra, spectrum rather that is gender and so you like using both the pronouns she.

Cameron [00:15:49] Yeah.

Jameela [00:15:50] And they and you like, like having the two kind of coexist with each other.

Cameron [00:15:54] Totally.

Jameela [00:15:55] And also it means that you then kind of don’t open yourself to being misgendered. Do you do you feel a certain way about how you’re gendered and when you’re gendered?

Cameron [00:16:03] That’s a tricky question. Well, I am often it does happen a lot that people mistake me for a dude. That does happen a lot.

Jameela [00:16:13] Okay.

Cameron [00:16:14] Which I like it like not well, like, for instance, on an airplane. Like, that’s like a classic place where.

Jameela [00:16:21] You get the sir.

Cameron [00:16:21] That will happen. Yeah, I get sirred a lot. And.

Jameela [00:16:25] And what does that make you feel like? Does it feel like anything?

Cameron [00:16:28] It feels dangerous, to be honest. The reason it feels dangerous is because I feel scared that the other person is going to notice that they’ve made a mistake or that I’m a mistake. I mean, again, a lot of this is like stuff I’m working on. I’m not hoping to stay here and then I feel nervous that they’re going to hurt me or do something to me because they notice something’s wrong with me. And I think that’s based on like, you know, just like shit that’s been yelled at me on the street or like, times I’ve received a slur or, you know, been like approached in a scary way in a bar or something like that. So yeah, it does feel dangerous. I think when, when I get sirred I tend to like duck my head and try to just go with it. I don’t usually correct people. And you know, it’s scary sometimes.

Jameela [00:17:26] Absolutely. Where do you hope you get to with that? Do you have like a goal in mind of just being comfortable regardless of how you’re perceived by other people?

Cameron [00:17:36] Yeah. I mean. I think right now my goal is to just talk about it so that people in my life know that this is something that goes on for me and so I can have support and then talk about it just so that I don’t have to like have these experiences alone. I think for a long time. The hardest part was the isolation of feeling like there’s something about me that’s different from other people, and I don’t even know how to explain that. You know, or somebody might fight me on it or, you know, something like that. But that doesn’t happen. I have found that if I talk about this, I have like really lovely people in my life. My spouse is really lovely about this, or my friends are really lovely. And sometimes it’s nice to hear somebody say, I’ve never had that experience because then it helps me to understand why I feel so nervous because it’s like, Oh yeah, this is, like, not something everybody is dealing with. And sometimes it helps for me to hear people say, I’ve totally had that experience, because then I don’t feel like the only person on the planet, you know? So it’s all of that comes from just like sharing and not keeping it in, which is what I was doing for a while simply because I like found standup comedy. And that’s such a great way of communicating with people that I think I forgot that I needed to confide in people I actually trust.

Jameela [00:19:05] Right, right, right. Of course. Well, because it’s it’s a wild card. You’re going out to strangers who’ve been drinking from all kinds of different walks of life, all kinds of different ideologies, I thought was really interesting how you spoke about when you found out that a lot of the people coming to your show were very excited to see you. There was a part of you that felt a bit not disappointed, but just that a slight sinking feeling and the fact that you want there to be people who aren’t from within your echo chamber, people who have the crossed arms, people who are waiting to disagree with you and then perhaps having their thoughts and beliefs challenged by you. I think that’s really interesting.

Cameron [00:19:41] Yeah. I mean, you know, this goes back to this personality type that I was talking about earlier where like, I think the reason I initially chose standup is because it is so hard because at the beginning anyway, when you have absolutely no name, when people don’t know who you are, every time you come out on stage, it’s a whole group of people whose minds you’re trying to change, you know, like who? For me, anyway, I felt like I was like, Can I get this group of people on board? Like, it’s a giant group of people. It’s big and scary. Like, can I change their minds? Can I make them love me? And I think. Over time that, you know, I’m glad it’s my job, but I don’t want to use it as my sole source of self-esteem anymore because it’s very addictive to get that love from people. And then also, you know, something changed, which is that like people came to see me on purpose, like you’re talking about. And I would walk out on stage and I didn’t have to, like, change everybody’s minds. And some of that magic actually went away at that point, you know?

Jameela [00:20:44] Do you know where this comes from? Because, again, this is somewhere where you and I are very opposing. I don’t I don’t have an interest in being liked or understood, especially because I don’t like or understand almost anyone I like you very much, just to be clear. But, you know, I rarely feel kinship with a lot of people, so therefore I don’t expect them to feel any kinship with me. And I kind of. Again stay in those ashes. Stay in those ashes, baby. But I would love to understand what the genesis of something like that is, do you know?

Cameron [00:21:15] Yeah. I mean, I think I do. You know, I think. I think it’s I think there’s some family history here. You know, I think my, um, my parents really had to like for different reasons. You know, my dad was adopted at a time when that was pretty stigmatized in the community he was adopted and into. And my mom. Really. Had had tough parents like her parents had had a lot of trauma in their own lives. And I think both of my folks had to work really hard to feel loved. And then I. And then they also did this thing where they changed social classes. So my parents raised us in a different class than than they were raised in. And I think that the idea of effort being important is something that that that class change. You know, like here now we’re.

Jameela [00:22:18] Do you mean that they changed from which class to which class?

Cameron [00:22:22] You know, like my mom grew up pretty poor. And then, you know, I was raised upper middle class and my dad, too, my dad, like, shoveled asphalt to put himself through law school. My mom worked at McDonalds to pay for college, you know, and then I was raised in an expectation where like you go to college, you know. So for them they were the they were, they were raised with really different expectations in their families and in their neighborhoods. And they moved to an area where a lot of people had had generational wealth and they hadn’t. You know, and so I think there’s some of that in earning a place where one is. And then I also think the family stuff, you know, it’s like it’s like a lot of messaging around earn where you are.

Jameela [00:23:08] It’s also a lot of messaging maybe around. And I understand this as a South Asian descendant of immigrants, but don’t fuck up. Don’t disappoint us. Don’t make it all for nothing. And I think that that’s incredibly stressful, especially if you are then struggling with your sexuality, which I was, and especially in the South Asian community, which I’m sure is very similar and in a heavily Catholic environment, even though I know you’ve kind of had like a loving and disappointed relationship with religion, it was definitely not okay to be queer as a South Asian kid. It definitely wasn’t okay to be very, very alpha as a South Asian woman and to disregard a lot of the things that were expected of me and marriage and children and the normal trajectory for a woman from my culture. And so it must have been extremely stressful for you to feel then like in this inherent way because of gender fluidity, which again when we were kids, not a conversation totally. And your sexuality and the way that you want to look and present yourself come from an Italian background. And so yours isn’t the traditional for someone Italian socialized as female and so that is that is so much terror of disappointing people and feeling like you are born inherently wrong and trying to, like, not run from something, but it must just feel like you’re always on the move trying to make up for these things, or it must have felt that way. And you shouldn’t feel that way because you’re absolutely perfect. But I’m just. I’m just wondering.

Cameron [00:24:46] Yeah. Jameela, I really think that’s I mean, that’s, that’s that’s where I go with it too, is I mean, I love that you said sounds stressful. First of all, it’s very affirming. Thank you. I really appreciate it. And I think that’s. To cope. I think I turn stress into an engine, you know, like my nervous system. It could kind of go two ways, right? Stress could. If you’re around those kinds of stressors, I think then stress can be something that like defeats you or causes you to meltdown, or the other coping mechanism is to use it. Right. And so again, like just this way that stand up feels to me or other choices I’ve made in my life, you know, like I’ve had a very big and sort of exciting, wild life. And some of that, I think, is because. Stress feels correct to me and I’ve been able to use it to my benefit. And what I’m actually working on is like undoing some of those patterns because chasing stress. It just runs out after a while, like I find myself exhausted. I also I went through like a pretty traumatic divorce about five years ago. Some of the why it was traumatic was just realizing that like. I can’t make everything work. Like I just have I got I kind of got that messaging, but it’s like you can make anything work with effort. And then. That wasn’t true for that relationship. And it was. Horrifying to find that out that I’m just a person.

Jameela [00:26:31] Terrible crash into reality.

Cameron [00:26:33] Yeah, exactly.

Jameela [00:26:34] Absolutely horrendous.

Cameron [00:26:34] Horrible. Yeah.

Jameela [00:26:44] So do you think that any of your body image stuff or your disordered eating, as you put it, was any of that about. I mean, you kind of reference like a little bit of it was control and then also I guess some of it was in order to make yourself. You were trying deliberately to make yourself look a bit more like a boy. So trying to kind of stay away from your curves. You know what I mean, like, try and hold your curves or, like, small, like, make them smaller. And then was any of that also, I guess I mean, it must have been a trigger from the fact that people are pointing out that you look different and you look big. And we grew up in a time where thinness was the norm. What we thought was the norm, even though everywhere we looked around us off the TV, everyone looked normal and then everyone was all the same one emaciated size not to say emaciated people don’t look normal. But I’m just saying that everyone looked a standard size around us or bigger. And then on the television, everyone was a size zero, double zero. Anyone, regardless of their sexuality, the lesbians we saw and the straight women that we saw like everyone was just rail thin.

Cameron [00:27:51] Yes. Yeah. The nineties were. Utterly brutal, I think, for anybody that had like a I mean, I think probably we all.

Jameela [00:28:01] Like that it’s coming back around now, which is why it’s important to have this conversation.

Cameron [00:28:06] Yeah. I mean, that, that. Well, I remember I mean, and then into the 2000, it’s like, you know, I remember watching the L Word and feeling like, oh my God, Shane. Like, that’s who I am. I’m that. And then. You know, Kate Manning would take her shirt off. And it was and I was just like. I don’t I’m so that’s not what I look like. And I and that was it in terms of representation, it was literally like just her. So is like. The only person that I felt looked anything like me or had any of the vibe that I felt I had going on just so far away from what my body looked like. Like that character, like, doesn’t wear a bra during a lot of during a bunch of episodes. Yeah. And if I don’t wear a bra, it’s like a different thing. It’s like it’s it’s like a it’s like a different thing. And so, yeah.

Jameela [00:29:04] So where are you at with your kind of disordered eating journey now? And I would love to know, like, what you’ve done, because these are these like. I think the conversation around eating disorders gets incredibly hyper simplified into it’s just to be skinny because everyone’s skinny around your it’s because you fell into a diet that went too far. It’s I think it’s so important to have a conversations about multifaceted reasons in which we start to control our bodies. Some people do it just as a reaction to trauma. Like it’s so, such a huge spectrum of reasons why people fall into disordered eating. So I would love to know what you have been doing to get to a better. I know you say you’re still a work in progress, but yeah, you’re in a place now, right?

Cameron [00:29:48] I really, really appreciate this question. So another thing I’ll say is that during the time that my eating was the most restricted and I was like, you know a 00, which I was so excited about, because when I would go to the store, I’d be like, This is actually the smallest size. Like that feels good in terms of the amount of space I want to take up in the world, like, are you? I could not be smaller. I wouldn’t be able to find pants. And when that was going on in my life, I was also dating men and had a boyfriend that I think really loved me. And that was also very stressful. So I would be super restrictive with food. And some of this might be a little bit triggering just to say to anybody who’s listening, but I would be super restrictive with food during the day. And then if we did anything like make out or anything sexual, we weren’t having sex. But if there was anything like that, after he would leave, I would just eat like ten bowls of cereal. Like it was for sure a way that I was coping with the pain of trying to be something I wasn’t. And I say that because the first moment that any of this was lifted was when I started dating a woman in college. I started dating a woman, and I wanted her to be around me. So, first of all, for the first time in a long time, there was somebody to witness the kinds of eating habits that I had going on, because so much of the eating habits were like secret or late at night or away from other people. I still did some of that in college, but I just spent more time with somebody because I actually wanted to be with her. And I also was with her body. And I had been you know, I was an I’m pretty athletic person. I was a big jock in high school and I dated jock’s and I was dating these men who had very low body fat percentages. And I think that also affected how I the choices that I was making around feeding myself, because I looked at their bodies and I actually wanted to look like them, which was impossible for me. I couldn’t have had a body like that. But when I first started dating my college girlfriend and I saw her body, I. I mean, I was so struck by how I thought she was beautiful and also that I was like looking at a woman’s body as it really is. You know, she was very she was athletic and very fit, too. But her body didn’t look like these. You know, the college the college football players that I was dating. Like she she looked more like me. And I really loved her body, and I felt really attracted to her. And in seeing that, it was one of the first times I thought that I could be attractive because before that, I had sort of avoided looking at women’s bodies because they made me feel uncomfortable because I was into it, you know, and I didn’t know that. So I was, you know, try to be really respectful in like a locker room situation and like didn’t know what to do with my eyes. So it was really like the first time I and that was the nineties like we’re talking about and in and then into the 2000s. And so here’s this, you know, woman that I was spending time with and it just was really affecting to see what she really looked like. And some of my habits just changed without effort. But then I also made some choices as I realized that this is what had been going on. And some of that looks like like I don’t eat diet foods and I don’t do diets.

Jameela [00:33:14] Therapy?

Cameron [00:33:16] Therapy. Yeah. I’ve been in therapy for a long time. Thank you Jameela. Yeah, that really helped. Yeah, therapy really helped. And, you know, another thing that I’ll say is, more recently showing my body has been really helpful because I also kept my body like a secret for a real long time. Like, I would not want to, like, go swimming with friends or something like that, for instance. But that’s something that I do. Or this year I had like a huge thing happen in my life, which is that I got cast on this ABC drama as a love interest for one of the main characters. And the first episode that I’m in, we have like a big makeout scene. The other character, like, takes my character’s shirt off. And so I was in a bra. On network television, which I talked to a lot of friends who work in that industry about, like how to prepare for that. And I. One thing I even did was I like, literally sent one of my closest friends a picture of me in a bra so that like. I had had, you know, people in my life who had seen this, and it was a really big deal. I like it was really scary and it was a really big deal for me to do that. And then after it aired, I also posted a picture on my own Instagram of me in a bra because I think like specifically, breasts are really. I think I have tried to make it look like I don’t have them because they feel very feminine to me and. And I just am trying not to do that to myself anymore. This is what my actual body looks like and hiding is not been helping my mental health.

Jameela [00:35:08] It also like doesn’t help your breasts. I wrote a public apology to my breasts like ten years ago for finding myself for so long. And I understand why I was doing that. But also, like, they were just always in pain. I just always I felt like I was in prison. Like I never felt free, ever. And so it is a really complicated relationship we do have with our curves and with our breasts. And it’s such a beautiful thing when you can just say to any part of your body, You know what I thought I didn’t want you here but actually, you know what? You’re welcome. You’re welcome to stay here instead of making someone feel that it’s just not good. Not to say that breasts have their own sentient feelings, but I think it’s so bad for your body because it’s a part of you. And it’s taken me such a long time to be as kind to my body as I am to other people. And also, by the way, I feel, you know, I haven’t worn a swimsuit until three weeks ago, like in front of people I know. Since I was 21 and I’m 36. So 15 no probably yeah about 15 years or maybe more, maybe 15, 17 years. And so I, I felt so, so embarrassed of my body, regardless of how skinny I was even when people told me I looked you know, quote unquote vogue perfect in my early twenties when I was dying of anorexia. I it’s such a it’s such a big deal. I’m very proud of you for being in a bra on screen because it’s written into all of my contracts that no one can see any part of me other than like in a in a not very tight dress. It’s all big blazers or like, you know, big sort of fluffy dresses, but you can’t really tell, you know, where my body actually is.

Cameron [00:36:48] I totally I mean, and I love that, too. Like, I think that’s also such a awesome and valid choice. And I was excited about it. Like I was excited. I also my character’s sort of like objectified by this other character who is. Sort of a very traditionally feminine like, you know. Approved, TV approved person, you know, played by the really wonderful Grace Park. So and she’s a real person and yeah. And so I’m not trying to like Grace is awesome.

Jameela [00:37:22] Yeah.

Cameron [00:37:23] And I loved that. Like, this other character is meant to come on to my character because I feel like so often the masculine center person is like, either disgusting or like this, like wolf that’s, you know, like, like a hunter.

Jameela [00:37:38] Yeah. You know, hypersexualized predator. Yeah.

Cameron [00:37:42] So it’s really cool to sort of be receiving attention and then to have this other character take my shirt off. Like, like I got to say, if it fucking blew my mind, like, I, like, loved it.

Jameela [00:37:54] And I honestly, just, like, I keep imagining. Did you watch it back? Yeah. Have you seen it back here?

Cameron [00:37:58] Oh, yes. Yes. So I like immediately watched it and I was just like, this is so cool.

Jameela [00:38:04] Like, can we just have a can we just take a second fur 11 year old Cameron.

Cameron [00:38:10] Yeah I mean, I got to say, it was like a big deal.

Jameela [00:38:11] For 11 year old Cameron to be able to see that, like someone is taking off your someone is taking off your shirt and someone is pursuing you when you probably felt at 11 and I know that I did right this I felt like no one was ever going to pursue me at that age and I was just going to live a lonely life, especially because anyone who looked like me wasn’t represented at all on camera. So I never saw them in any love story. So therefore I presumed, okay, well then I’ll never be in a love story. And so just a moment for knowing that. In honor of 11 year old Cameron. Then going into imagining that other little 11 year old future Camerons are going to watch this and see that and realize, Oh, I look like that person. There is something out there for me. I that is so fucking cool.

Cameron [00:39:02] It was a really big deal.

Jameela [00:39:03] It’s so cool because it’s like a, it’s a little piece of your own history and it could be the beginning of someone like someone else’s future. In doing that really brave, cool thing that I’m totally not brave enough to do. You are set, you’re setting all these people free. And I think that there’s something really magical about that.

Cameron [00:39:30] Jameela, I want to ask you a question.

Jameela [00:39:32] Go on.

Cameron [00:39:32] What is it like to be to have the feelings that you’re telling me about and receive positive feedback about your body or or your looks? Because I feel like for me, I’ve felt a little like I don’t fit in. And then a lot of. Now, on like Instagram or like with, you know, these days I get a lot of positive feedback. But when you were talking about this like. Vogue time you know, I didn’t have that time because even when I was, like, really small. I don’t know. I wasn’t getting like I would imagine that sounds difficult in a different way to have people really giving you positive feedback, that kind of attention sounds.

Jameela [00:40:15] It’s actually very damaging. It was very damaging because for lots of reasons it was mostly damaging, I would say, because I was so sick and so riddled with body dysmorphia that I thought they were wrong. And so I was like, Shit, I’ve done something to trick them into thinking. It must have been the way that I dressed. It must have been because I was wearing all black. It must have been because of my Spanx. It must have been something else. And now I feel this pressure to live up to this lie that I’ve accidentally tricked everyone into. So now I’m going to have to starve myself to maintain the lie of my, quote unquote, attractiveness or conformity. So for me, it was really suffocating and almost killed me. Whereas if people had just not spoken about my body and just talked about if I was a good journalist or not, I think I would have had a faster shot at recovery. But we have this training to affirm conventional beauty standards and tell people, Oh, you’ve lost weight, you know? And I’m like, you know, you and I, when we spoke on the phone, were talking about how scary fittings are and how triggering fittings are. And my biggest fear in a fitting other than the fact that the jeans won’t fit and then you’ll feel like you’ve inconvenienced someone and taken up too much fucking space, which I’ve moved out of and now gone. You didn’t do your fucking job properly. I sent you my measurements. And it’s not me it’s you. This is a you problem. But for most of my life is the fear that someone’s going to either say you’re too big or be like, Oh my God, look at you, you’re so small. Because whenever anyone would be like, You’re too small for everything. Like, Wow, you’ve lost so much weight. Like, people get excited on shows that I’m on if I get thinner and often it’s because something terrible is happening at home or I’ve been very sick or like I had a tooth removed or something and I immediately get such positive feedback. Congratulations. And I’m prone to that like pat on the head of like, well done, well done. You’ve made yourself smaller. Congratulations. And so that both of those are very damaging for me. So I now take an entire suitcase of my own stuff to every single fitting that I do for anything. And I look deeply controlling and unhinged. But it’s just so that I know I’ve got stuff that definitely fits me so I don’t have to negotiate of try on stuff that they’ve got if I feel like it can work. But if not, I’m happy to spend all of my own money on making sure that I don’t go down a slippery slope because of a fitting.

Cameron [00:42:35] Yeah. Oh, I hear you. I mean, thanks for telling me that. You know, I think. Yeah, as you were talking, I just was, like, imagining an avalanche. Like, that’s what it sounds like, you know?

Jameela [00:42:45] Yeah.

Cameron [00:42:46] And. And you’re not the only you know. I’ve heard this. My my wife had a. Very serious illness in her twenties. And she’s talked to me about like it caused her to lose a bunch of weight real fast. And when she got and she was still working. She would go into the office. The constant feedback that she would get was really positive. And she was. Just like. Then trying to share with a person like I’m like sick I’m like dealing with like an illness. And people were like, well, keep it up, you know, like and then like that that’s what we prioritize, you know, she’s like, no, I mean, like, it’s bad. People are like, but as a, you know, as a follow up point, ah, some benefits.

Jameela [00:43:33] Yeah. Yeah. Silver lining. You look so chic in your coffin.

Cameron [00:43:41] Yeah. Shit is so fucked.

Jameela [00:43:41] It’s so incredibly fucked and it’s so incredibly confusing and it’s so incredibly difficult to find out where you find comfort. I wonder also if like so where in your life did you find did you acknowledge to yourself that you were gender fluid? Because I feel like this potentially could be linked to also helping you embrace your size if you don’t have to be one, if you don’t have to conform to what is hyper masculine, which is difficult for your body to get to, or hyper feminine, which you don’t really feel akin to necessarily physically. When did you when in your life was it that you realized, okay, you know what, I’m just actually neither or all of them at the same time.

Cameron [00:44:20] So I love this question because the answer is so good. Well, first of all, I have been describing ways I used to have like this sort of like asymmetrical hair and. You know, I wear like motorcycle jackets on stage and I’ve long worn makeup that somebody else does. If I’m going to be in some sort of like public thing, I wear makeup, which always surprises people because I think that they assume that I wouldn’t wear makeup, but I’m always like Bowie. Bowie wears fucking makeup like Bowie wears makeup. Bowie wears, you know, leather jackets. Like Bowie has wild hair. Like, that’s me. We’re the same guy. And so I’ve been doing this for years or, you know. Like I used to have a joke about, like that like. My gender was Thundercat or, you know, like ten years ago when we weren’t even talking about any of the stuff. But it is only in the pandemic. When I started to be on Tik Tok, like as a viewer, like watching things on Tik Tok, I started to see young people like people that are younger than me by maybe ten or even 20 years talking about themselves. And it was super helpful because I think that. I’m sort of the. I am the first generation of. I don’t know exactly. Oh, you said you’re 36. We’re like a similar age. I’m 40, so I feel like I’m the first that I’m like the youngest somebody can be and that I’m the first person that could graduate from college or become an adult and. Move into a world that had marriage equality. Like literally that happened the week I graduated from college. I’m the I’m the first generation of comics that were out when we started. Like, there aren’t older people than me who were out when they started that had immediate, mainstream success. A lot of times you had to choose mainstream success and then come out later more like your own. You’re working cruise ships, you know? And so it really has been a massive thing seeing what younger people, what words and and things that they’ve been able to develop after that generation because, like. I didn’t have. A ton of people to learn from. It was such a different experience for people older than me. Does that makes sense?

Jameela [00:46:48] It does make sense. It does make sense. I was just wondering when it happened and and has that had an impact on the fact that like, well, if I can be fluid between these things, then maybe my body can be fluid or maybe my body can fluctuate and maybe I can look like a little bit of this and a little bit of that and maybe that’s just all okay, because that’s how my my mind and my soul feels. So why would my body not? Does it does it make more? Does your body make more sense to you in that context is what I’m wondering?

Cameron [00:47:13] Mm that’s such a good question. Maybe. Yeah, maybe. I mean, I’ve also been working on growing some muscle mass as opposed to working on thinness.

Jameela [00:47:23] Isn’t it great?

Cameron [00:47:23] That has also helped.

Jameela [00:47:26] Yeah I mean, I saw your, you know, your guns when you put your hand up over your head,.

Cameron [00:47:30] Yeah I was fucking looking jacked these days boy.

Jameela [00:47:30] I was like, can somebody call a vet because these swans are sick. I’m so sorry. I just said that it that was the final kind of for me. That was the final not maybe not the final piece, but I’d say, like, I’m at 90% capacity and recovery because last year I had to train as a character, as a supervillain in She-Hulk.

Cameron [00:47:56] Yeah my friend Tatiana’s show.

Jameela [00:47:56] Yes, indeed.

Cameron [00:47:57] And your show.

Jameela [00:47:58] No no no. That’s Tatiana’s show. But I had to get bigger and stronger and gain weight and gain muscles. And I needed a bigger ass and bigger thighs and everything was against everything I’d ever told myself I was supposed to be. And so it’s it has completely transformed the way I look at taking up space. And suddenly I look at my big shoulders and I’m like, those are cool big shoulders. It’s okay that you look like a guy from the back. And that’s like something I was teased about as a school, like, from, from girls because I’m so tall and I’m so big. I like people used to make a lot of fun of me for that. And I was like and like, my gait is not like little and tiny and traditionally feminine. Like, that feels so great. And like, you know, I can kick someone through a wall and I feel really big and strong. And we were never encouraged to have muscles. We were always told that told off about that in fact that’s a huge fear. It’s why a lot of people don’t lift weights at all, because women, especially as because they’re terrified of gaining muscles and the fact that they feel like that’s not something we’re allowed and you have to eat more to be able to do it. And it feels amazing when you pick up something that’s really heavy and it is it’s recontextualized my whole body for me.

Cameron [00:49:06] That’s so awesome. Yeah. I mean, I. I’m in the same zone of. I mean, again, I feel like it’s like it’s a different type of waif, like it’s a different waifeshness. But I do think for like masculine of center folks for a long time and I think it still is true that it’s like you’re meant to be so flat chested, but you’re also meant to sort of look like heroine chic is like still alive and well in that world of like who we hold up as having.

Jameela [00:49:33] Or you have to be ripped!

Cameron [00:49:34] You have to be ripped. And you have to be you have to look like a young boy. Like I mean, I think that’s really in terms of what television or, you know, any of that, it’s like having a body makes you gross in that you know in a. Like male gazey context. And anyway, it’s, it’s something I’m working on is looking jacked so that I can beat up those men who gaze

Jameela [00:50:01] Totally. But I also hope you don’t feel a pressure to conform to that media type of jacked. I hope that you find whatever is comfortable and sustainable for you, and I hope you look out for that. That’s none of my business. Sorry I’m giving you unsolicited advice.

Cameron [00:50:11] No I love it. I mean it’s,.

Jameela [00:50:12] But I also know that, like any new aspirational goal for our bodies is always a slippery slope for people who suffered with disordered eating. So just I just urge you or anyone is on a similar journey to to still keep an eye on it because even if it’s cool that you’re getting bigger and stronger. I had to check myself out all the time where I’m just like, Am I obsessed? I’m obsessed.

Cameron [00:50:30] I always think about this in the shower before before this talk today is that I, I is that I know I have that capacity to like go nuts. So you’re right. You know.

Jameela [00:50:42] I yeah, I was training six days a week when I was shooting Marvel and I that became something compulsive about it. So I in jujitsu and I was doing all this like martial arts and I was training with a trainer and everything. And so when I got back because I, I felt even though I didn’t have reshoots for another four months or so, I’ve got to keep this. I’ve got to keep this up. And then I thought, no, now you must not keep this up. Because you’ve become addicted to it.

Cameron [00:51:05] Yes.

Jameela [00:51:05] And you’re becoming mad again. Really? Truly mad and so I took like a complete break.

Cameron [00:51:11] Yeah.

Jameela [00:51:12] Which is quite stressful, which I know we need to retrain me, but it’s fine. Doesn’t matter he’ll be fine, because I caught it. So, you know, however recover recovered we are, however therapized we are, it is always the faster slippery slope, which is why so few people ever fully recover. And I know you’ve already said you feel like you might never fully recover when it comes to body image stuff. Just please keep an eye out.

Cameron [00:51:32] You know, I so I so hear you. And it is funny because it’s like, again, just even something like TikTok. It’s like I have to look at like my feed stuff or creep in and it’s like whatever I’m saying in my life or whatever videos I watch there will be like then I’ll start to get like a bunch of recipes or like protein for it and I have to.

Jameela [00:51:52] Fucking caulflower rice.

Cameron [00:51:53] Just like, not interested, not.

Jameela [00:51:55] Fucking cauliflower rice, it’s following me online.

Cameron [00:51:56] Yeah, exactly. But it is like, you know, that feels like a symbolic representation.

Jameela [00:52:01] I fucking hate cauliflower rice.

Cameron [00:52:01] Of exactly what you’re talking about, which is like, I have to say, not interested over and over again, you know, and and there’s yeah, you’re right. You know, there’s a lot to watch for, for sure.

Jameela [00:52:12] It’s just all about it’s all about balance and it’s all about resisting societal pressure because of how many people profit from our society or from the way that we give into societal pressure. So it’s about like, just going fuck you or I’m not fitting into a fucking achetype. I mean, if you do then you do whatever. But I just, I enjoy the rebellion of it. So seeing as this is a mental health podcast and we’ve spoken about so many things that are sort of like mental health or comfort adjacent, how would you describe your mental health experience like has because, you know, you’ve I’ve we’ve talked about discomfort and this, that and the other. But when it comes to stuff like sadness or depression or anxiety, I mean, it sounds like there must’ve been a lot of anxiety in this life of yours. But but what’s your mental health been like?

Cameron [00:52:55] Yeah, I mean, I think I do really struggle with anxiety and I do a lot to manage that. The first step was like identifying that I struggle with anxiety at all because I did recraft a stressful life, like having a stressful childhood. I went out and recrafted a stressful life because that felt good to me. But I do a lot in my daily life to. Attempt to ground. It’s hard, you know, it doesn’t always stay there, but meditation, yoga, therapy. And I’m I’m in recovery for codependency, you know, like a program that I work around that and.

Jameela [00:53:37] Can ask a little bit of what that looks like.

Cameron [00:53:39] Yeah yeah. Recovery for that. You know there’s there are yeah. There’s recovery around. Working to look at oneself and stop the focus on others. And validation, you know, validation can be addictive just like anything else. And it’s a great way to lose yourself. So. You know, it looks like meetings and sharing and and and all that.

Jameela [00:54:11] Oh, God. I wonder that’s so fascinating to me at some point, maybe I’d love to dig in to that with you if you ever come back.

Cameron [00:54:18] Well, let’s do it again. We’ll do the second half.

Jameela [00:54:20] I would so love to do that. So, so many other things. I would love to talk to you about that you’ve you’ve already touched on in the past. And so I loved chatting to you today. And it feels like you have been on such a delicate and and intricate journey that has required a lot of bravery and a lot of unpacking, a lot of shit that wasn’t didn’t even come from you like came from lineages before you that you’ve had to kind of Whac-A-Mole away. And, and I so I so appreciate that and I so appreciate how tenderly you’ve spoken about yourself and and, and the fact that you come on here as a work in progress and the fact that you don’t like good vibes only this and you don’t, uh. Try to play the recovered card.

Cameron [00:55:10] Oh, no, life is really hard.

Jameela [00:55:12] A lot of people feel pressured to and they feel pressure, too, because they want to inspire people to it doesnt come from a bad place. I’m sure I’ve done it in the past and then suddenly have that moment of like, Oh, no, no, no. Still still there.

Cameron [00:55:23] Yeah.

Jameela [00:55:24] Still a few steps back. And so I love talking to people while they’re still kind of working through the steps. And I would love you to come back. Before you go, can I just ask you. What do you weigh?

Cameron [00:55:36] Oh, great question. I was prepped for this.

Jameela [00:55:40] Yeah. Big question Cameron.

Cameron [00:55:43] Um. I weigh. Investing in a household and a home life after a lot of years on the road and with an addiction to excitement and newness. And I weigh my tiny dog, my tiny dog who looks exactly like me. We are. Biologically twins, even though we’re very different ages.

Jameela [00:56:12] David Bowie.

Cameron [00:56:13] Oh, when you see my dog, you will know exactly what I mean.

Jameela [00:56:17] Great.

Cameron [00:56:18] And. I weigh balance. It’s what you just said this is. I’m endeavoring to have friends and a job to have hobbies and things I’m serious about. To eat food and like it, you know, shocking things like that.

Jameela [00:56:41] Mm hmm. And I’m excited for this journey of you just validating yourself rather than seeking it from others. Because I bet if you met you at a party, you’d be like, They’re great, they’re fantastic, they’re multifaceted and friendly and kind with good intentions. But it’s so amazing what bastards we are to ourselves. And so good luck with continuing on with that. I’ve just met you objectively and I think you’re great. I’m sure so to a lot of the listeners. And so I, you know, I hope you I hope you start to give yourself that much grace and and kindness.

Cameron [00:57:16] That is the work.

Jameela [00:57:17] That alright that I said that.

Cameron [00:57:18] Yeah, that’s the work right there. That’s the work. It’s very hard. It’s very, very hard. I can give that to you so easily.

Jameela [00:57:25] I appreciate that.

Cameron [00:57:26] It’s so hard to give it to me, you know?

Jameela [00:57:28] No, exactly. Exactly, exactly. Well, I reckon somewhere halfway between you and me is the right person. Like, I feel like it’s been really interesting being on such different sides of certain spectrums in this conversation.

Cameron [00:57:44] I love it.

Jameela [00:57:45] And just realizing there’s a there’s a balance to strike somewhere between us, but also if we don’t get there, we’re still great as we are. All right, Cameron. You and me. I’m excited to see what’s next, and I can’t wait to hear about it.

Cameron [00:57:57] All right. See you on episode two of us.

Jameela [00:57:58] Lots of love. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and research by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music you’re hearing now is made by my boyfriend James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate review and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. We also have a bonus series exclusively on Stitcher Premium called Ask Jameela Anything. Check it out. You can get a free month Stitcher Premium by going to Stitcher.com/premium and using the promo code I Weigh. Lastly over at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at 18186605543 or email us what you weigh IWeighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our fabulous listeners. Here is a nice way from one of our listeners. I weigh my independence, never being told what to do. Ever since I was 16, supporting myself, since I finished high school, choosing my own life, I weigh being a depression survivor. I weigh recognizing that the relationship I have with myself is the most important relationship of my life. I weigh being an artist in making.