EP. 40 — Dr. Deepika Chopra

Jameela Jamil [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil. So, we’re in week one. It’s been weird. The news has been bad, and the words “super strain” and “mutant strain” is being said more than makes me feel comfortable, considering I came in with a very, like, fresh New Year vibe, thinking it’s all going to be different. And it’s feeling a little bit the same, and people are behaving badly, publicly, Been Dad’s been weird. People are angry with AOC. It’s too much. It’s too much chaos. So, let’s just breathe. I actually talked this week on social media–if you do follow me on Instagram–about anxiety, and how I cannot believe it took me this long to go on meds for my anxiety, and how really, I only kind of started dabbling with them last February. And I think that there was genuinely this feeling in me–you know, maybe I’ve even said it on this podcast like an ignorant asshole–that I believe in treating the cause, not the symptom, when I’m talking about mental health as if it’s a tooth abscess. And I was wrong because what I forgot about is that sometimes the symptoms can be so bad that you can’t even see the cause. And also, sometimes there just isn’t a cause. Sometimes you just have, like, a general anxiety disorder, or sometimes you have a chemical imbalance, or sometimes fuck knows what’s going on. If you have symptoms for anything, treat them with whatever you can. Now, for you, if that’s meditation or yoga or whatever, that’s great. But for me, it was so severe it had to be meds. And so, I just wanted to take the opportunity of it being the beginning of the year just to talk to all of you–anyone who follows me anywhere… Except that weird guy who sometimes follows me around the supermarket–this isn’t for him. But for everyone else, I want to just say, if last year was really, really, really hard and if until now you’ve tried to just kind of, like, stick through it, or you valued stoicism, or you thought there’s any kind of, like, valor in just suffering and baring it… or, like me, you thought, “No, no, no. Because it’ll only be topical.” That’s not true. And if you are lucky enough to have any kind of access to mental health care, take it–take whatever you can, and know that you’re in control, and it doesn’t mean it’s going to be forever, and it can just be for now to get you through the roughest time. We are going through the roughest time of our lives. So please know that I don’t think it’s embarrassing, and the thousands and hundreds of thousands of people who commented on my post and sent me DMs also don’t think it’s embarrassing. More people are doing this than you know, but they’re too embarrassed to talk about it because it’s so stigmatized and so unspoken about. So, I hope that you’re looking after you. And as someone who never takes more than truly about 3 minutes into a headache before I reach for pills, I now am someone who will forever make sure to have the same speed at treating my mind because it’s as valuable, if not more so. And so that’s just a little early year, vulnerable moment from me–just hoping that you know that we’re all in this together and no one has their shit fully together. And if they say they do, they’re probably lying or a smug bitch. You know what? Regardless of their gender–smug bitch–they’re like… No, I’m joking. I’m going to stop talking about that now. Instead, I’m going to talk about the exact opposite of what vibe I just gave off: a doctor of optimism. Now, I did not think that that was a thing. It sounds like a fake thing, but it is in fact real. I had the honor of being able to sit down this week with Dr. Deepika Chopra, who is a doctor of optimism. She is fantastic. She’s so interesting. And she brought all the information that we need at this time of year ’cause you and me–we’re not interested in getting thinner this year. We’re not interested in what we look like. We’re interested in becoming happier, I hope. I hope that that’s what this year is for us. It’s New Year, not new me. New Year, happier me… More authentic me, more stable me, hopefully. And she just drops truth bomb upon truth bomb upon truth bomb of how the brain works. She’s so scientific with it. She’s so literal, and humane, and relatable, and just fascinating. And she breaks down the difference between visualizing and the problem with the way that people talk about manifesting, which I find super problematic. And if you’re suddenly having a reaction to me saying that, listen to the episode–hear what we have to say about it. She talks about how the brain is an anticipatory organ. She had a super interesting journey with surrogacy, which is, again, something that we don’t talk about a lot. I think it’s the first time I’ve spoken about it on this podcast, but I never hear women just being open about being a surrogate because there’s so much unnecessary shaming that goes on around this subject as if somehow you are either cheating, or you are stealing, or you were a failure, or that baby isn’t really yours–and she really breaks it down. She broke down why she had to do it, and the beauty of it, and what’s tricky about it, and the ways in which she became territorial. She just really goes there. So rather than continuing to tell you how great she is, I’m just going to let you listen for yourself. I’m now a big fan of this woman. Please join me in welcoming into the new year the excellent Deepika Chopra. I’m in a fucking filthy mood today. So, it’s just as well I’m talking to optimism doctor Deepika Chopra. Hello. How are you?

Deepika Chopra [00:06:05] Hi. So nice to be here. I love that you’re in a fucked mood right now. Actually, it makes it a perfect, perfect conversation.

Jameela Jamil [00:06:14] Oh, yeah. The world is not on my fucking side today. I’m furious. And it’s so great to finally get to an age where I can just admit that and not be worried that someone will find me unpleasant or grumpy. It’s like, you know, I am fucking unpleasant and grumpy sometimes. And I like just owning it. And I think, for me, I find it not only liberating but also helpful to other people that I’m talking to. So, if I seem a bit edgy, they don’t immediately take it personally because I feel like that’s the human condition to immediately worry that, “Oh no, have I done something? Are they angry with me? Is this about me?” I think it’s very important to announce that you’re already having a shit day.

Deepika Chopra [00:06:52] Before I put it out there.

Jameela Jamil [00:06:53] Yeah. So that no one takes responsibility for it.

Deepika Chopra [00:06:56] Yeah, it’s like a PSA. It’s like a warning. “Just so you know–and my mood can change, but this is where I’m at right now.” And it’s absolutely bloody bizarre that people would think that we would be in the same mood or in a positive mood all the time, every single day. It baffles me that some people would ever have that notion. And it’s something that in our society is just, like, placed upon us all the time. It’s like, has anyone read about what it means to be a human?

Jameela Jamil [00:07:27] We have Shadeen Francis on this show sometimes, who’s a wonderful therapist, and she talks about the fact that we’re not hungry all at the same times–and when we are, we don’t want to eat all the same things. So, what is this pressure to feel the same way or want the same things always, constantly?

Deepika Chopra [00:07:41] Absolutely.

Jameela Jamil [00:07:42] I’m thrilled to have you here. We got to meet about a week or two ago, and I was just fascinated by what it is that you do. Talk to me about how you are an Optimism Doctor. I’ve never heard of anything like this before.

Deepika Chopra [00:07:59] Fair enough. It’s probably the question I get asked the most, and it makes sense because there was no such thing as an Optimism Doctor before I became the Optimism Doctor.

Jameela Jamil [00:08:10] Congratulations.

Deepika Chopra [00:08:13] So, my background is I have a doctorate in clinical health psychology and I’ve been studying basically the science behind optimism, and hope, and joy, and resiliency for the past decade or so now. Basically, through my entire career in graduate school–I would never trade it in for anything else, it was my foundation, it’s why I am doing what I’m doing and why I’m here. And I think it’s so important to have that background and foundation when you’re working with real lives and real people. But there was a lot of holes, I felt, in the field and what was offered to us in terms of how we could offer treatment and tips and tools. And I felt that the field was rather antiquated. I’ve always been very, very, very obsessed and driven by science, and I love the brain. I’m a self-proclaimed brain nerd. And everything I was studying during grad school about the brain kept directing me to this idea that the brain is an anticipatory organ. So, that means that the brain is constantly working in future tense–whether that’s two minutes from now, five minutes from now, an hour, a week, months, or years… or even moments. And so, an example of that is kind of, like, when you see something in front of you with your eyes, your brain is actually telling you what you see faster than your visual cortex is recognizing what it is. And it’s sort of like those brain tricks that you’ve seen over the internet in the last few years, where you can read a word and it’s missing really, really integral letters, but you still read the word as if all the letters were there.

Jameela Jamil [00:09:53] Oh, right.

Deepika Chopra [00:09:53] And another example of that is kind of, like, if you think about eating something–let’s say you think about eating a piece of cake…

Jameela Jamil [00:10:01] Right. I’m there. I’m there.

Deepika Chopra [00:10:03] Yeah. You think about it.

Jameela Jamil [00:10:04] I’m normally there anyway.

Deepika Chopra [00:10:06] Your brain already releases the right amount of insulin to break down that piece of cake. And so–

Jameela Jamil [00:10:15] Whoa! What? Wait, why?

Deepika Chopra [00:10:16] Because our brains are so efficient–and we want them to be efficient. We are always dealing with so much stimulation that our brain sort of creates these shortcuts. And it’s sort of like, “I know how much insulin it takes to break down a piece of cake. She’s thinking about eating the cake. She’s probably going to have it. So, let me just release that ahead of time.”

Jameela Jamil [00:10:31] Well, if my brain knows me at all, I am probably going to have it. But wait, is that bad for you? Because you can develop insulin resistance from having too much insulin released in your body at the same time. And obviously, I’m no health expert, but that is a thing. So, if I’m thinking about cake all day, which I am. All right? And I’m not ashamed of it. But am I just having, like, an insulin overdose all day because of how much I’m thinking about food?

Deepika Chopra [00:10:58] Well, that’s such a good question. And I, of course, am not a nutritionist, and nutrition is not my specialty. But what I do know about the brain is that if you’re actually thinking about the cake and then imagining the cake–like, you’ve already gone there, and you’re visualizing it–you should probably just eat the cake because the amount of insulin released, you’re right, is not good for you.

Jameela Jamil [00:11:18] Fuck.

Deepika Chopra [00:11:18] And if you give it to yourself and it’s floating sort of within you, that’s not great. So, it’s interesting when a lot of people are talking about diet plans or new, like, diet fads and stuff–like, it’s just interesting to me that the whole psychological piece is not addressed. It would probably be so helpful to do some psychological work, or visualization training, or distraction therapy, or something to think about and to help program your brain of what you want to think about because at that point, it’s just, like… Ever since I learned this in grad school about the brain and about the anticipatory organ, now I’m like, “If I’m thinking about the donut, I’m just going to eat the donut. I think it’s better for me to eat the donut.”

Jameela Jamil [00:12:00] Yeah, well, you may as well if you’re releasing the insulin anyway.

Deepika Chopra [00:12:05] Right. Right. And that was a big aha moment for me, and I wanted to dive deeper into that. I don’t do a lot of work with, like, diets and stuff, but interestingly–

Jameela Jamil [00:12:16] But wait. Sorry. Do we do this with, like, boobs or something, you know, and penises? Are we just like: we see the boob… and now we want the boob? Like it’s…

Deepika Chopra [00:12:28] Well…

Jameela Jamil [00:12:29] We think we’re having the boob. Our body releases something that says, “You’re having the boob.”

Deepika Chopra [00:12:34] Our brains have something called mirror neurons. And when you visualize and you’re able to visualize something, you’re more likely to be able to achieve that or have that because your brain already doesn’t really know the difference between when you’re visualizing it and when you’re actually doing it. So, it’s kind of like when you watch someone go through a dance routine–you know–or in sports psychology, a lot of their training is actually visualizing their shot or their stroke in golf.

Jameela Jamil [00:13:05] Wow.

Deepika Chopra [00:13:05] And it’s because, of course, there’s not a lot that can replace the physical practice, but your body has a limit, and too much physical practice is not good for you. So, then you have to shift to mental practice. And it’s this whole idea that if you can visualize something, it is much more likely that your brain is going to think that that can happen–and so it will put forth the energy to make it happen. And if you can’t really and you can’t get there, then that’s a lot of the work we do in visual imagery–and that’s what I specialize in. It’s helping someone visualize something if their core belief sort of doesn’t believe they can do something or get there. One of the best ways–besides just working cognitively–is to help them actually go through a visual imagery.

Jameela Jamil [00:13:52] Sorry. No, I’m so sorry to interrupt, but is this what they do when you’re playing golf and they’re like, “Don’t look at the golf ball–like, don’t even look at your club–just look to where you’re aiming for?”.

Deepika Chopra [00:14:03] Yeah. Absolutely.

Jameela Jamil [00:14:04] “That’s all you should be doing.”

Deepika Chopra [00:14:05] Absolutely. And also, like, you’ll hear athletes–even dancers–go through performances in their mind. So, they practice in real life, too, but they also will shut their eyes and, in their mind, go through their entire performance. And that’s a type of practice, too–the mental practice. It’s so important. And of course, like, I live in Los Angeles, and so, when I was in grad school and right out of grad school, so much of the work I was doing at first– I completed a double post-doc fellowship at UCLA in Cedars. And just being in L.A., so much of my work shifted from–I was working with a lot of cancer patients at the time at UCLA and their families, and then it very quickly shifted to people in the industry. And I was doing a lot of visualization work with people pre auditions and, you know, just pre an event. Visual imagery is so interesting. It’s a tool that we all possess. It’s just a skill that we have to sharpen. And people don’t know that there’s actual science behind it–like, how you visualize something. Do you do it from the third person or the first person? Are you using all your senses? And that’s the best way. Like, are you using color? There’s a lot of science behind this, and it can be a very effective tool that we all actually already possess. It’s not some expensive thing you have to buy or some large, crazy exclusive club to be part of. It’s part of being human.

Jameela Jamil [00:15:31] Fascinating. Okay, so break it down for me. An audition. I’ve got an audition this week. How would you help me visualize to do well in the audition–because I fucking hate auditions? My social anxiety goes through the roof. I feel very judged. The idea that you’ve only got one shot–like Eminem said–when on set, you’re going to have 700,000 shots because we do it from every different angle a million times. The pressure–the ridiculousness–of the fact that you have to perform this perfectly live as if on theater. I understand that’s the only way they can get through so many tapes, but–you know–I have to do this with the director and with the network watching. And it’s going to be over Zoom, which is already, like, so depersonalized and grotesque. And I’ve only really done, like, a couple of auditions before ever because I was so lucky with The Good Place. So how would I visualize myself–and anyone out there who’s maybe lost their job and are going back for job interviews, like, after maybe having lost their confidence this year? Like, how would you suggest that? I would love to just understand more.

Deepika Chopra [00:16:34] The tips that would work really well for something like that–and of course, right now it’s so different because you’re on Zoom–but… Even when I worked with people then, I would want to know–to plug into their visual imagery–like, what does the audition room look like? You know, what does it sound like in there? What does it smell like in there? Who do you think you might meet in there? And usually, people that I had been working with had been to most of all the audition rooms and buildings, so they kind of knew. And the more that they could give me details about, like, very, very nuanced details that would trick their senses or trip up their senses–that I knew what it looked like, smelled like, tasted like, whatever… Even if there was a bathroom on the way in that they could stop at–that they knew what that looked like, and I could build in a ritual like washing their hands and looking in the mirror and saying something within it. Basically, the visual imagery that we would do pre-that is going through the whole audition and having it go in a way that you would expect and want it to go. And so, when you actually get into the room and you see, like, the door handle that you told me about–we plugged it in there–or the bathroom on the way in and you did what you did, your brain starts recalling the experience that it was in before because it doesn’t know the difference–that that was the visual imagery. And it starts putting you in the place that you’ve already prepped yourself for.

Jameela Jamil [00:17:53] Yeah. Do you think that this has been, like, bastardized into what I…? And listen, maybe we’re going to have a fight–you and me, right now.

Deepika Chopra [00:18:02] It’s okay. It’s okay.

Jameela Jamil [00:18:02] But this whole, like, manifesting discussion I find fucking–

Deepika Chopra [00:18:07] I love that you brought the M-word up. This is usually a fight I have with other people, sort of colleagues, because I feel like when I started studying optimism, and resiliency, and happiness, and the science behind it, like, over a decade ago, it was a little too woo-woo for the science community, and it was way too sciency for the woo-woo community. And now, for some reason, I get into it a lot. So, I don’t believe in the type of manifestation that is: make a vision board, say what you want to the universe, and then expect some shit to drop into your lap.

Jameela Jamil [00:18:48] Oh, thank fuck for that. Yeah, man. I think it is… To me, I am so offended by the culture of, like, mainstream, predominantly white, but just generally mainstream western form of manifestation.

Deepika Chopra [00:18:59] It’s very privileged.

Jameela Jamil [00:19:01] It’s the height of privilege. And it’s so victim shaming; this is my problem with manifestation. And look, everyone’s got that process. I’m so sorry if I’m sitting on yours. But just please understand, this comes from a place of (a) having lived in extreme poverty when I was younger or being incredibly sick in an environment that I could not get out of, and remembering that there are people from my home country, you know, who are living without limbs or living in abject, actual poverty, where they can’t even access water.

Deepika Chopra [00:19:27] And they did not manifest that.

Jameela Jamil [00:19:29] They didn’t manifest that. The idea that you can think your way out of, like, extreme crisis then means that the people who are living currently in crisis that they cannot avoid or avert from–that’s somehow their fault. They weren’t positive enough. It’s, like, the women who are born with children who have severe disabilities–they didn’t think positively enough. I find it to be a scary, toxic, and hyper simplified, frustrating, dangerous ideology.

Deepika Chopra [00:19:56] Well, when you look at it that way–and people really simplify it down to like, “Ask for it and then it comes”–that just to me is, like… So, a perfect example is I spent a really big part of my fellowship as a psycho-oncologist at UCLA, so I saw cancer patients and their families. And I worked in a wonderful center at UCLA that offered free services–and it was holistic and science-based–to any patients that were being treated at UCLA and their families. And it was lovely, but the amount of people that we had coming in for therapy and for going through treatment psychologically that were just like, “You know, I have seen every single practitioner in all the land and all of them are telling me that I created this and I thought it. And I’m so scared now. And I’ve manifested this.” And I’m like, “You did not manifest your cancer.” And then they’re like, “And if I work really hard and I think about it really hard, I can make it go away.” So, that to me was the height of a learning experience of “This stuff is not oversimplified.” It’s the same way that I think of… I don’t believe in blanket statement affirmations, and I get into fights about this all the time with people. I wrote an article about this, and thankfully it kind of went viral. And the people that were responding were actually more, like, in agreeance with it and like, “Thank God someone’s saying this.” But I don’t believe that if you have a core belief–and you’ve worked on it for many, many years for many different types of reasons and experiences in your own life–but you have a core belief that you don’t love yourself or you don’t deserve love… And then you go to some type of coach or whatever, or you read a book, and they tell you to just look into the mirror every morning when you wake up, and every evening before you go to bed, and five times repeat–holding your heart center–“I love myself. I’m worthy. I love myself. I’m worthy.” Your brain is very smart. Your brain is very effective. Our brains are trained to take bullshit, and magnify it, and call it out, and say, “Are you kidding me? You’ve spent 37 years thinking the opposite, and now you’re going to tell me that I love myself in front of a mirror? No way. I’m going to give you all the evidence right now on why you’re wrong. And not only that, but you’re, like, stupid to say that.” So, like, your brain works against you in that way; you have to be authentic and real. If you don’t believe the affirmation that you’re saying, do not repeat it, please. The better work is to work with someone to have a real mindset shift. And maybe a better question is: What’s something–anything that you like about yourself? It could be small. It could be big. You know, and I work with someone, and maybe they’ll say, “Well, I really love how loyal I am. I’m a great friend,” or “I tell a great story, and I make people laugh.” “Okay. One out of ten–how much do you believe that to be true?” And if they believe it seven over ten or greater–that I would rather them use as their affirmation. Stand in front of the mirror and say, “I love what a great friend I am.”

Jameela Jamil [00:23:01] This is what my whole I Weigh movement is. It’s all taking what we’ve been told to think is important, which is our exterior, and instead twisting it all around into like, “Who am I–not what do I look like?” Like, “I am a mother,” “I am a cat owner,” “I am a great lover,” “I am a hard worker,” “I have overcome abuse or trauma.” You know, we weigh the sum of all of our parts. And I’m exactly like that. You know, I feel like I ran away from all of this–you know, you referred to it as toxic positivity, and so do I–this idea that, like, “Just love yourself, just love yourself.” It made me feel like I was failing at yet another fucking thing. I was like, “I’m not being able to love myself!” And also, it is denying the truth that everyone in the world–everything in the world–is telling me to hate this thing that I’m now being told to just automatically somehow be able to override all of that external programming and love. I can’t love myself. I’d rather just not fucking think about my cellulite, or my thighs, or my this, that, and the other, my hair, my face, my nose. I’d rather not think about it and instead think about things that I actually do like.

Deepika Chopra [00:24:10] So that’s the key. And someone will come to me and say that, and I’m like, “Okay. You’ve spent 30+ years on this core belief that you don’t like the way you look. Right now, this might sound surprising, but I’m not going to ask you to throw that away. I’m going to ask you to just– That’s fine. And you keep it. And I believe you. I believe that you feel that. And I believe there’s reasons that you have come up with to feel that. And I’m not going to take that away from you. But, like, can you tell me about one thing that you do like about yourself or, you know, one thing that you’re proud of? And I’m talking like it could be coming here right now. That’s enough.” And then the way that the brain works is we love to seek out and collect evidence–we’re kind of like just little detectives. It’s a slower process, but it’s real. The more you can come up with things that are true and authentic to you–“Yes, I’m a good lover,” “I am a great friend,” “I tell a great story,”–you believe these things, and your brain knows that they’re true. And so, you spend more time thinking about that. It starts to pick out other evidence in your day and then into your weeks and easier shortcuts into, like, picking those evidences out and creating them to be more and more–until you get to the point, which takes time, but you actually kind of start to dispel that original core belief, and you may start to soften, and turn the corner, and make a new core belief. But it’s not going 0 to 100. It’s not like you’re driving down the 405 at like 100 miles per hour and then all of a sudden you screech and turn. You’ll crash. You can’t go from “I don’t like the way I look” to “I’m beautiful.” You just can’t go there. That’s not how we work. Our brains are much smarter than that. We are much smarter than that. And we should be giving ourselves a lot more credit than that.

Jameela Jamil [00:25:56] 100%. And I encourage the messaging that is out there to, I guess, help guide people towards that messaging. But yeah, again, it’s my whole body neutrality shit. Like, everything I stand for is to try to at least get to neutral because I just want to think about it at all. I don’t want to go through the argument in my brain.

Deepika Chopra [00:26:14] Yes. And neutral–I love that you brought that up. For me, I always talk about that. Neutral is such a valuable, underrated, emotional state of being. You don’t have to be positive, and you also don’t have to be the opposite of that–negative. There is so much value in being neutral–in just being neutral. And I think we are in this really sort of weird state in the last handful of years where we are trying to live our lives pressured by bumper stickers. Oh my God, if there’s one phrase that I hear that makes my skin crawl, it’s good vibes only.

Jameela Jamil [00:26:52] Yeah.

Deepika Chopra [00:26:53] And I get it. It comes from an intentional place of, like, “I just want to spread the good, and I want to spread the positive.” But actually, what people don’t know is when you say that, it’s causing shame, and it’s actually causing for the vilification of someone being able to experience the full range of human emotion. And that’s literally what we were built to do; we were built to experience the full range of human emotion. We were not built as humans to just experience the good vibes only.

Jameela Jamil [00:27:24] I mean, I came into this podcast with no good vibes. It was zero good vibes. Bad vibes only.

Deepika Chopra [00:27:32] And that’s okay. Right. And I like to look at it where I’m just like, “Vibes.” Even putting, you know, any sort of positive or negative to it–it doesn’t make sense. And when you start to understand that it goes literally against what it means to be a human, it helps us release our shoulders and helps us release some stress and pressure because we’re not actually meant for that. So, when you look through and you scroll through social media and you’re just bombarded by the perfect lives–everything’s happy and perfect, perfect relationship, perfect filtered face, perfect makeup, perfect body, perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect… None of that’s real; perfection actually doesn’t exist. I’m trying to tell you this from a scientific point of view–it doesn’t exist. And I think the more we can talk about it and spread the truth–we’re setting ourselves up, if we don’t do that, for massive failure, including the “Ask, and it just will come into my lap.” Maybe that works a couple times–and that, by the way, is a coincidence. It’s not because you have manifested something; that’s not how it works. To achieve something, you can’t just want it. Not only do you have to want it, you have to expect that it can happen. And when you expect that it can happen–and your brain thinks it can happen and it will happen–your brain starts to turn on its problem-solving skills, and you are able to achieve that. I’m trying to say that you can achieve all those things, but it takes hard work, and it takes a real mindset shift. And my big thing is like, “You don’t always get what you want. But you almost always get what you expect.” So, it’s really important to start working through, and being intentional, and really getting to know your expectations–more so than, like, what you want.

Jameela Jamil [00:29:26] That’s tricky, though. Some people because of society and how much society has ostracized most communities–you might expect less than what you’re actually capable of. Impostor syndrome, etc.

Deepika Chopra [00:29:40] No, you absolutely do. But to know that and to be intentionally aware of it is a tool and a skill. Absolutely that happens. That’s exactly what happens. And it’s not our fault that some of our expectations are not matching our wants at all. It’s part of the framework of our lives, and where we’ve come from, and the experiences we’ve had, and what we’ve been dealt. People are very obsessed right now with knowing what they want. “But I wanted it, and I knew I wanted it, and I thought about it, and I visualized it, and I want it. I want, want, want, want.” But if you don’t actually think that it can happen and you don’t do the work– It takes a lot of work. But it’s not about being passive and just expecting that like, “Yeah, well, I wanted it, so why isn’t it here?”

Jameela Jamil [00:30:31] I should have manifested it.

Deepika Chopra [00:30:33] Right? Exactly. I’ll give you an example. I was working with an 18-year-old when I was at UCLA. This is a really long time ago. And he was my toughest patient because, you know, he was an 18-year-old male and he had been diagnosed with testicular cancer. And it was just awful. And he was very angry, of course. And we worked together for a long time, but he was a soccer player, and he played a soccer game with his league every single weekend. And I remember, you know, we would talk about going in for scans and him just automatically assuming that the scan would be bad news after he was done with treatment. And I can’t guarantee to him that if you visualize the scan going well or poorly, that the outcome was going to be that. I cannot. I’m not a magician. You are not a magician. That’s not what we’re doing. But the point is, I asked him, “Every single weekend that you go play soccer against another team–every Sunday, when you go–on the way to soccer, do you believe deeply that you were going to lose?” “No,” he said. “Of course, I don’t believe I’m going to lose. I believe we’re going to win.” “Can you guarantee that if you are believing you’re going to win, that you’re going to win?” He’s like, “No, but I play better if I think I’m going to win. What’s the point of me even going to soccer if I constantly think I’m going to lose?” So, it’s the same type of situation where, you know, there are physical attributes to being able to visualize, especially in something–it’s been research–in cancer treatment. You know, if you can visualize the treatment, your body prepares itself a little better. You’re less anxious. The stress cortisol levels go down. It might help with healing. There’s a lot of different physical positives, but really the mental positives are kind of like, “Why not?”

Jameela Jamil [00:32:23] You know, I remember in our last conversation you were telling me that, you know, when we’re talking about perfection culture, and how damaging it is, and how I was telling you that I feel like it’s gone from just being about our looks to then being about our lifestyles, then being how we are as parents, and now being to our thoughts. We’re supposed to have perfect thoughts–perfect thoughts that appeal to every single different individual in the world. Like, we’re supposed to be perfectly educated, perfectly sound of mind. We have to react perfectly to things. And I feel as though we’re suffocating under this expectation for perfection. And you told me that actually the brain has more significant learning capacity after a mistake–that that’s actually when we learn the most and the most effectively is when we’ve made a mistake. So actually, mistakes are the way that we will most effectively learn and kind of–you know–it will give you that kind of… I don’t know. The mistakes are effectively the way that we are best going to learn and then make effective change.

Deepika Chopra [00:33:23] Absolutely. So, the way that our brain works in terms of learning cognition and memory–we learn more, we remember more, we create these lasting memories from mistakes that we’ve made and problems that we’ve solved. And so oftentimes you’ll hear developmental researchers say how important it is to allow your children to make mistakes or, you know, not to run in and correct someone before they’re going to experience something that you know might not be right because you’ve just completely taken away the most potent form of learning and brain growth for them.

Jameela Jamil [00:33:59] That’s so funny that you say that because only in the last, like, six years– I’m like a meddler in my friends’ relationships and lives. I can call myself an Olympic gold “meddlist” because of all my meddling. And I spent so many years trying to stop them from making all the mistakes that I’ve made, but now I’m just kind of like, “Fine. You know what? Date that coke addict. Date that 45-year-old coke addict. See how that goes for you.” Do you know what I mean? Like, “Date the guy that never calls you back or goes dark on you for, like, five days when you’re away at work–and maybe is cheating on you. Do it.” Do the things that you know, from previous experience, are bad for you. And you’ll only learn from making the mistakes. Sometimes you have to let someone just kind of effectively set in their own shit.

Deepika Chopra [00:34:55] Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And of course, I’m not like… If you see a bus about to crash into someone, please go and–

Jameela Jamil [00:35:04] No. Let them learn. Let them have the lesson. That’s what we’re saying.

Deepika Chopra [00:35:05] Let them learn for the next life. Of course. And then, like, offering sound advice or whatever it is, being a good friend, being a good parent. But just the core learning experience, and brain growth, and increase of memory and learning that you get from making a mistake, and then following through, and going through the problem-solving to correct that mistake–the memory and the learning lasts so much longer in your brain. Whereas if you look back–and it makes sense for all of us–to memories in your life, very few times do you remember when things just went absolutely well, like a random day that just… everything went well. But what sticks in your mind is when maybe there was a struggle, or maybe you made a mistake about something, or you said something that you didn’t mean and then you corrected it. That’s just how our brains work.

Jameela Jamil [00:35:58] Why is that? Is that safety?

Deepika Chopra [00:35:59] Well, I think it takes more energy. You know how we talked about this idea of efficiency and shortcuts? It takes more energy to actually be like, “Wait a second. I’m not operating on automatic here. Something went wrong. I felt this certain way. And I had to do something different and challenge myself to think of a different thing to make this better.”

Jameela Jamil [00:36:19] Yeah, I am a way better, more empathetic, and, I think, more interesting and smarter person from all of my mistakes. I think I would be so dull if I just had everything handed to me on a plate. And if everything had just gone really brilliantly, I can’t imagine I would have much substance. I love the fact that I have obviously the mistakes. And, you know, problems feel awful in the moment because people are so unforgiving and also, I feel embarrassed or, you know, I hate if I’ve hurt anyone or created any kind of harm. But after that, I feel this energy of expansion when I realize that I am learning something now that I didn’t know before. I’m becoming a better person for this; I’m excited to go and share this knowledge now with other people, so that we all collectively grow in this moment. I choose to be one of the most transparent–I don’t know–“public figures,” I guess we’ll say, that there is because I’m just like, “Fuck, we can all learn together. And then that’s exciting, and that’s community.” Life is just school.

Deepika Chopra [00:37:21] And that’s literally one of the hallmarks of optimism. So, a lot of people think that optimism– When I asked them, “What’s a word that you would use to define optimism?” And of course, everyone’s first word is “positivity.” You know, glass half full–rose colored glasses. And I always like to say, “For me, I cannot define optimism without two key words. And positivity is not one of them.” The two key words that, for me, I use to help define what optimism really is is “resiliency”–so, overcoming struggle and persevering through struggle–and “curiosity”–so, being able to be curious about your own experience and emotional experience. And you might be going through a shitty time, and feeling awful, and have emotions of anger, and worry, and shame, and guilt, and all these emotions–sadness–that we all experience. So, first of all, having to be really intentional and mindful that you will experience those emotions if you are alive, breathing, human. You will. It’s part of what we do. It is normal, and it’s actually fine. But being able to hold that emotion, and sort of respect it, and say, “I’m not going to squash it, put it under the rug,” because we know through science that’s not how we get through emotions. You have to literally lean into them. But you say, “I’m going to respect this emotion. I feel it. I know where it’s coming from. I respect myself for having it. But at the very same time that I feel it, I’m going to hold space for some sort of hope that something will change, or I will grow from this.” And then even if you can’t get there, you just have to say, “I’m really curious about how I will grow from this.” So that curiosity is so important. And for you, when you’re talking about mistakes, or when you don’t know something, and you’re learning, and you talk about how you shift into, like, “I’m learning for this,” or “How will I grow from this?” If you don’t do that– And many of us don’t because it’s actually scary to accept that–that we’re not perfect. But if you don’t go through that and shift to that after an experience like that, then you are missing literally the most potent growth experience of your life.

Jameela Jamil [00:39:37] Wow.

Deepika Chopra [00:39:38] You know? If you feel that perfection is what is right and what is real and that’s the golden rule, then you must be someone that thinks that there is no growth and there is no change. And then that defies every single law of life.

Jameela Jamil [00:39:59] Yeah, I talk about that all the time. I’m like, when you look at someone like me or someone who’s been shamed publicly–be them a politician, or a scientist, or, like, an actress–I’m like, “If you don’t think that I can change or they can change, then deep down you must believe that you can’t change. And that’s fucking sad.” Like, if we don’t believe in change, what is the point in activism? What is the point in rules? What is the point in any kind of growth if we don’t really fundamentally believe in it?

Deepika Chopra [00:40:26] And there’s empathy there. And I understand because change–although it is the most constant thing in all of our lives–everything changes. I mean, seasons, the earth, the world, the weather, our bodies. You know, even if you look at sleep, we’re going through different types of sleep every night–different waves. Like, everything changes. Change is the one constant, but it’s actually the most difficult, emotional human state to be in. So, it’s hard for all of us. And so many of us go through the world and we don’t want to be uncomfortable. We don’t want to be uncomfortable. I don’t know what it is or where it’s shifted exactly, but we are in a society right now that–it’s the same thing with toxic positivity–we shun discomfort. And what if you could actually look at discomfort as: “That’s the real thing. That’s the thing.”

Jameela Jamil [00:41:20] “That’s the good shit.”

Deepika Chopra [00:41:21] “That’s the goal. That’s the good shit. That’s everything.” You know what I mean? It’s the same thing, like, stress… Of course, chronic stress is really bad for your body. I mean, it is bad for our heart health, etc., etc. We go through the world learning even in school–I’m always taught stress is The Big Bad Wolf. Stress is going to kill you. Stress will make you impotent. Stress will make your heart stop. Like, stress, stress, stress–stress is bad. So, what do you do when you are experiencing stress? Not only are you experiencing stress, but you’re also experiencing shame and guilt for experiencing stress. You’re like, “What am I doing? I’m not powerful enough to get through it.” And I’m like, “What if I told you that stress–the definition of stress–is just the response to living.” So, if you’re responding to living, you will have stress.

Jameela Jamil [00:42:15] Now, speaking of perfection, speaking of optimism, speaking of how you yourself would put this into practice–you and I have spoken before about fertility, which is something that you have had quite a journey with through your life. And you’ve experienced some disappointments, and then you’ve made certain decisions, and you’ve experienced some shaming. I’d love to get into that with you. And first and foremost, I’d also love to learn, through your fertility struggles, how did you stay optimistic? How did you put your own work into practice?

Deepika Chopra [00:42:47] So I think the most important thing here is that you do not know what someone else is going through. And you also do not know when you’re going to need certain things in your life that you never would have imagined before. And so, for me, I didn’t have fertility issues, but I had my first child. He’s three and a half now–almost three and a half. You know, we got pregnant on vacation–kind of annoyingly easily–just didn’t mean to. I hate when people say that. I was not on birth control. So obviously I knew it was a possibility, but I had just gotten off of birth control after, like, 15 years on it. And so, I thought it would take some time; I didn’t even have a period. But we got pregnant. And that was fine. But I had the worst traumatic pregnancy. I had something called hyperemesis gravidarum. And I started throwing up about 35 times a day from the day I found out I was pregnant until the day I delivered.

Jameela Jamil [00:43:47] Oh, shit.

Deepika Chopra [00:43:48] Yes. And I always tell people that my optimism and all my tools were truly tested during that. It was like having a chronic illness. I couldn’t do anything I wanted to do. I could not connect to my pregnancy whatsoever. In fact, I was mad at it all the time. I hemorrhaged my vocal cords. I had to have IVs from my bed. It was awful. Every single street in my neighborhood and beyond–every freeway in the car–I always tell my son, “I threw up here. I threw up there.” I threw up everywhere; it was awful. And I felt like shit. And I did not have an ounce or iota of optimism–even while I was carrying the life of my future child, which many people would think would be the most optimistic time in your life, the most hopeful time in your life. And I was miserable. And it took me–I remember the exact day–over seven and a half months to have a moment of optimism. And that day that I did have that moment of optimism–it lasted for maybe 15 seconds, but it was there. And then subsequently, I ended up getting very, very severe pre-eclampsia, not related.

Jameela Jamil [00:44:59] I don’t know what that is. Sorry. I know nothing about it.

Deepika Chopra [00:45:02] Basically, my blood pressure went super high, and it was really dangerous. I went into labor pretty early. Thankfully, I had an emergency C-section. And thank God my son, Jag, was absolutely okay. And in the grand scheme of things, I was okay. But I went to a bunch of specialists after–when he was about six months old–just to be like, “What happened to me? I know it was really traumatic, but I was so focused on my child then. I don’t know what happened to me.” And we basically ran a bunch of tests. And in a long story short, they found out that I have some sort of autoimmune predisposition to blood clotting. And they told me I was so lucky that nothing happened to me fatally during this time and that I would not be lucky again. So, they advised me not to carry again. And it was like this huge blow, where for me, it wasn’t a fertility issue. So, putting that out there–that you just don’t know. I still had to go through IVF, and I didn’t have any fertility issues. So, I went through IVF to get my eggs out, and we made embryos. And, you know, I had to make the decision where I knew I could get pregnant–but I look at my son and I’m like, “If I were to get pregnant, they gave me an 85% chance or higher of dying in a subsequent pregnancy.” And so, you would think that that was a really easy decision, but every single day I struggled–every month that went by. You know, I wanted to get pregnant again, and I just knew it would be the easier thing to do since there was all these questions and decisions in my mind of what we wanted to do. We really wanted to have more children. We wanted to have, for ourselves, more children but also a sibling for our son. And so, you know, it was pretty, pretty emotionally brutal–but at the same time, optimistic and so thankful that there were options for us. And after, you know, a year and a half or two years of trying to figure out what we wanted to do and how it would work–we went the surrogacy journey. And we found the most loving angel surrogate, who carried our child for us. And we just had our second baby boy six weeks ago.

Jameela Jamil [00:47:09] Oh, sweet. And congratulations.

Deepika Chopra [00:47:11] And even within that, you know, we were going through a surrogacy journey in the middle of the pandemic, which was scary as hell. And also right now, you know, my fears were up to the tens about whether I was going to connect. I mean, I don’t know.

Jameela Jamil [00:47:26] Yeah, I always wondered about that because I’m not very well. And so, it’s going to be, you know– I’d have to really risk the hell out of my life to be able to carry naturally. And, like, (a) there’s so much shaming around surrogacy–and obviously I don’t negotiate with shame, so it can all fuck off. But it makes it hard to find information on surrogacy.

Deepika Chopra [00:47:45] Yes. It is so not talked about.

Jameela Jamil [00:47:46] And people say that it’s a vanity thing. Like, it’s an act. Like, you don’t want to gain the weight, or you don’t want to go through the body changes, or you’re lazy, or this, that, and the other. And then there is the fear that you won’t connect with the baby, so I would love to know more about that–that journey.

Deepika Chopra [00:48:02] Well, I think the most–and again, coming from good intentions–hurtful commentary for me was sort of this unintentional, like, backhanded shame that I think I got–that was not flat out “How could you be doing this? This is weird.” Because everyone knew it was life or death for me. And not that I had anything to say about someone that would choose to go that route that didn’t have that situation–but I personally would have done everything short of signing up to die to have my second child myself. But that wasn’t an option for me. And so, I think this weird comment that people would make–trying to make me feel better about what I considered to be a huge loss–is this comment of, like, “Well, at least your body’s going to be intact,” or, like, “At least you don’t have to gain the way. Oh my God, I would kill for that.” “At least, you know…” “At least,” “At least,” “At least, like, you don’t have to do this or do that.” And the only “at least,” for me, that made sense was at least I could be alive. But, you know, you think you’re saying something. And even with that–people can say that and not know that that might hurt my feelings. And all I can do is if the people matter to me that I want to have a relationship with, I will tell them. And then it’s up to them to learn from that, and all of them did. And it goes back to that, like– You know, I can’t just look at that and be like, “Well, that was a horrible thing, and you’re canceled.” It was: “I’m guessing this came from a really great intention and you’re trying to relate to my situation. But it doesn’t feel good to hear that. And actually, like, I would give anything to make my body change again, if that’s all that was going to happen to me, to have my next child. I would give anything to breastfeed again.” And a lot of people can’t. For me, I had the worst pregnancy, worst delivery–everything was crazy. But breastfeeding was like– Yes, it was gruesome and tiring, and I didn’t think I would even want to ever do it in my life–I just didn’t have that in me. But I breastfed for almost a year until my son literally was like, “No.” And it was the easiest part for us. And I mourn that now. Of course, I can’t… I have a child that I can’t, and I think about that every single day. The last six weeks there’s this, like, love, and gratitude, and so much hope and optimism–especially with this year welcoming a new life… And also because of my journey and learning all the things I’ve learned about letting go of control–which is just crazy–and, like, my fear of needles. Oh my gosh, I have a huge fear of needles. But all these things, lessons, I have had to learn–and I look at him, and I see all that in him. And I’m also proud of myself, but, at the same time, I’ve cried. I feel a loss. I want to be the one to give him all the things he needs, like I was with my first kid. But right now, everyone else can do exactly what I’m doing. They can feed him a bottle. And that’s fine if that is best. That’s absolutely fine. And I also am, like, happy about that because look what I can do right now. Whereas the first time around, I was recovering, and it took me eight weeks to recover, and I was also breastfeeding around the clock, and I couldn’t do anything. So, there’s this, like, being able to value and respect all of the emotions within it for me–and I have so many of them, and that’s okay, and I don’t have to decide and label, like, “This has been the best experience of life and I’m only going to look at the best.” Because when you start to talk about the things that, you know, don’t feel good, you get a lot of backlash of people being like, “Well, you’re lucky you can even have a kid.” And it’s like, that’s the “whole good vibes only.”

Jameela Jamil [00:51:51] Yes. It’s a privilege to even be able to have a surrogate.

Deepika Chopra [00:51:55] Yes. And it is.

Jameela Jamil [00:51:56] And can I ask a question? I always wondered: How does the surrogate not become bonded to the baby? Like how does that work? I’ve never known. Sorry for being ignorant, but I am… notoriously.

Deepika Chopra [00:52:12] Of course, that’s something that my husband and I thought of. Like, you don’t want them to be so bonded that there is this emotional distress at the end of it. But you want them to be bonded enough that they are caring for the child that they’re carrying. And I think that I’ve learned through it. And I can’t speak as a surrogate, of course, because that wasn’t my position. I was on the other side. And I have to be so open, and I would be open with my surrogate. When she would feel the baby kick, I’m like, “I just have to let you know that makes me so happy and I want to see it, but it also makes me really jealous.” And she has a son, and she was like, “Oh, he’s feeling the baby kick.” And I would look at Jag and be like, “That makes me so happy. He’s kicking! I want to see! Give me the video!” But also, it made me jealous and sad that Jag couldn’t feel his baby brother kicking his mom’s tummy. And she was incredible and is incredible, and I am grateful for her every day. I mean, I wasn’t even a prayer before, but I literally think about her in the morning, and I think about her in the afternoon or the evening before I go to sleep. I just think about her, and I, like, hold her in my thoughts because she is a huge part of my life now. And I’m so eternally grateful. But I think what really worked was just being open and me being open to maybe she was going to be bonded. And I wanted to know, and I wanted to give her the opportunity to speak.

Jameela Jamil [00:53:44] What do you do in that situation?

Deepika Chopra [00:53:46] Well, I think for us, she was very vocal to me about feeling like she was sort of babysitting. She kind of equated it to that. And now, you know, there’s been times where we’ve talked–or even right before delivery, she was like, “I wonder if I’m going to miss having, you know, him inside of me.” And I was like, “You know, for me–when I was pregnant–I just wanted him to get out because I was so ill.” But she had a great pregnancy. And so, I’m like, “I can imagine that you might, and I want to know about it, you know, I want to talk about it.” And they also go through counseling; it’s part of the whole process. And, of course, it can be done in many different ways. But, for us, we went through, like, Very Agency, and it was all done very, like, dotted I’s, and cross T’s and, and whatever that is. We didn’t know her before; she wasn’t, like, a friend or anything. And, you know, they have their own children as well, and that’s one of the requirements. And so, I think that makes it a little bit different. And so, I think that also, like, you have to be pretty aware of what you’re getting into on both sides. And so, I went into it kind of in the back of my mind, I think, being like, “Okay, this is all my stuff stirring up. I’m valuing it, but also, I’m sure it’ll be fine because, you know, all these people are saying these things. Come on, think about it; of course, you’ll bond.” But then, like, the first two days were tough. They were really tough, I have to say. And then all of a sudden, you’re like, “Oh my God. Like… shit. I am having some difficulty here, and it’s not the same, and you compare it. Is this just a second child thing, or is it part of the surrogacy?” And you go through it, and you’re like, “Oh no.” And so, I think it’s also important to say that, like, the caveat with that is: yes, some people don’t even bond with their kids, and then other people bond. And even if you go into it thinking that or not thinking it and then you actually have an experience where you’re having difficulty, it could not last forever. And it’s okay. For me, it took me a good two days–and that’s just two days. And of course, like, what would I expect? I didn’t have the ten months to sort of, you know, have the whole experience to prep my body. Like, I didn’t have all that. And so, like, of course–what was I expecting myself, you know, to just…? So, I think, again, it just comes back to so much of this is about being compassionate to yourself. So much of everything we’re talking about is just like– The number one line of defense in any situation is to first approach yourself with compassion.

Jameela Jamil [00:56:29] Yeah. And you approach this with resilience and with curiosity. And so, I think that’s such an interesting way of looking at optimism. Thank you so much. This was such an important conversation. And I think in a year where, again, our value systems are shifting–I think we are starting to hopefully step away in some ways from perfection, but in other ways we aren’t. We’re looking for moral purity, etc. I think it’s a really important subject. Okay, before I lose you because you’ve got to go, and do your job, and help people–will you tell me, please, what do you weigh?

Deepika Chopra [00:57:01] Ooh. Well, I weigh the sum of all my parts–and all my parts are so multifaceted. I am a mother. I am a healer. I am a wife. I’m a friend. I’m a business owner. I am a daughter. I’m a granddaughter. I’m a sister–a cousin. I sort of am a product and an illustration of all my relationships and all the things that I deeply value. And I’m also a dreamer.

Jameela Jamil [00:57:46] Yeah. I think that’s great. Well, thank you so much for teaching us so much and coming onto this podcast today. I’m hoping that plenty of people will find it very, very helpful. Where can people find you and your work?

Deepika Chopra [00:57:59] So you can find me at drdeepikachopra.com. I’m also on Instagram @drdeepikachopra. And you can find my brand–Things Are Looking Up and the Optimism Things Are Looking Up Deck of Cards that I’ve created–at thingsarelookingup.co. And I’m also the host of the Looking Up with Dr. Deepika podcast, which is available on Apple, Spotify, anywhere that you subscribe to podcasts. And hopefully Jameela is coming on super soon, so–

Jameela Jamil [00:58:31] I am.

Deepika Chopra [00:58:31] Tune into that episode.

Jameela Jamil [00:58:33] All right. Thank you so much. Take care. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music that you’re hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. I really appreciate it, and it amps me up to bring on better and better guests. Lastly, at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you, and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at 1-818-660-5543 or email us what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com. It’s not in pounds and kilos, so please don’t send that; it’s all about your– Just– You know. You’ve been on the Instagram. Anyway. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners.

I Weigh Community Member [00:59:28] I weigh as an empathetic person who won’t let people abuse that empathy.