EP. 177 — F*cking Cancelled with Clementine Morrigan

 

Jameela: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, a podcast against shame. I hope you’re well, and I hope you are ready for what is another slightly controversial episode in that it is not totally obedient of the narrative of the left or liberals. Now, I think it’s important to have those conversations because it means that then we are able to have a more fleshed out, full opinion that isn’t just told to us, we get to decide for ourselves. And so sometimes I like to have these conversations with people that I find interesting. And I appreciate you for still being here after you’ve even seen the word cancel in the title because fuck knows it feels like we’ve been talking about cancel culture forever and it’s become such a boring, tired subject. But that’s often because we talk about it in the most banal, surface level way because it’s about a celebrity who got into trouble for a minute and people just criticized them and then they went away for like a week or a month and then they came back more powerful than ever and that’s kind of what we think cancel culture [00:01:00] is.

This episode gets into the nitty gritty of what actual real cancel culture is and it is. is happening and it’s not just happening to celebrities, it’s happening to people in all kinds of different areas and walks of life at all kinds of different ages, including in school. We talk about what actual cancellation is, about the social ostracization, about the complete decimation of someone’s entirety over one act or one opinion or one mistake, even one that happened years and years ago. And it’s not supposed to be in defense of any of these people. It’s just to unpick why do we find it so easy to dispose of others? Do we actually find it easy? Is it good for us? What does it feel like to be on the receiving end of such intense actual cancellation? And what does it feel like to be the one cancelling? Why? What is it that we enjoy? Where is this safety that we are finding in doing so? My guest Clementine Morrigan has spent so [00:02:00] much time thinking about this subject, and she put so much thought and energy and so much of her own journey and story into unpacking that for the rest of us.

She’s such a great writer and podcaster and thinker, and I think she has a really refreshing and, and at times because it’s so raw and against the mainstream narrative, it can be quite jarring to hear at first. And so I want you to prep yourself for that, but I ultimately believe, after having spoken to her, that the way that she looks at the world is incredibly optimistic and feels like a better idea, at least, than what we are doing now because what we are doing now feels bad. And I know that you feel this way, not all of you, but some of you, because so many of you write me letters every single week telling me that you are starting to fear the society that we are now living in. And you are starting to feel sad that you are feeling the pressure to ostracize people in your life, maybe your relatives or your [00:03:00] best friends, because they’ve done something that the world or that your community finds unacceptable. And it’s a very large scale of things that people can find unacceptable, and yet the punishment often is the same, and that’s another problem with our society. So in this episode, we really get into the weeds of the motivations of cancel culture, the reality of it, where our society is going to go if we keep acting like this, and what could be a perhaps more restorative, regenerative, and just happier solution.

I really hope that I get to hear from you after you hear this episode. I really hope you can be open minded and I really hope that this triggers some sort of dialogue between us because that’s why I’m doing this fucking podcast. It’s why I’m having these conversations. It’s why I’m reaching out to these, um, unique thinkers on Instagram begging them to come and have a chat with me and teach me what they know and what they’ve [00:04:00] seen. And I feel very lucky to have had a guest who is so raw that it was shocking in moments. Um, and who is so, there’s such a, a nakedness to this woman’s perception about the world and her perception of herself. She’s so reflective, she’s done so much thinking, she’s such a clear communicator to the point where it was genuinely quite intimidating during the record, and I really appreciate the chat that we had and just generally following her has, I think, encouraged me to be a more thoughtful person and a kinder person. And, I wonder if you think that’s something that either you or someone you know might benefit from. So for now, sit back, open your mind, and please enjoy the wonderful Clementine Morrigan.[00:05:00]

Clementine Morrigan, welcome to I Weigh. How are you?

Clementine: I’m doing good. How are you?

Jameela: I’m really good. It’s really nice to meet you. I, uh, I’ve been following you for a while now because I have been talking about, I’ve been critiquing the culture of the punitive culture within social justice, uh, for a few years now. And almost every time I say something about it publicly, people DM me telling me that I would enjoy your work. And so I followed you and they were right. And it’s been a real joy to read what you write and to feel uh, so aligned with someone I don’t even know over the internet. You’ve made me feel less alone. I think you’ve made quite a lot of people feel less alone. We’ve both made people feel quite angry. [00:06:00] Uh, but I really appreciate the way that you put yourself out there.

So we’ve been having the conversation about cancel culture I feel like since Me Too, right? We’re in our kind of eighth year of it being mainstream within the zeitgeist and the conversation almost feels exhausted by this point, but your angle within the conversation on cancel culture is unique in that you are talking about the human impact, the psychological impact of cancellation and how it goes against how our brains and bodies and how our society is supposed to work. Can you talk to me about why cancel culture is something you care so much about?

Clementine: Sure. So basically for me, there’s like two main reasons why I am really against cancel culture. The first is the human reason that you’re talking about. So basically like human beings, we are social animals. We evolved to be in groups, right? We strongly have a biological need to belong somewhere. [00:07:00] Um, we need connections, we need friendship, we need belonging. Cancel culture, what it is and how it works, is that when a person is cancelled, having a connection with them, whether that be, you know, just following them on social media all the way through to being a close friend of theirs or being their partner, any kind of connection with them becomes a social crime. And so the way that cancel culture works is that people who remain in the life of the cancelled person will also receive pushback, harassment, and may also be cancelled themselves for refusing to abandon the person who’s being cancelled. So it is a profound type of exile and ostracization, and it is also a form of dehumanization in which empathy for the cancelled person also becomes a social crime. So if you do anything that indicates that you care about the canceled person, that you’re worried about the canceled person, that you care about what’s happening to them and how it’s affecting them, that too is going to reflect very badly on you and you’re going to have consequences.

And so overall to be targeted in this way, to, you [00:08:00] know, have all of these horrible things said about you on the internet, um, to feel massively misrepresented, to be harassed by large numbers of people, to be losing your friends, your community, your career, your connections, all in one fell swoop. Like, all of these things are massive stressors. To have them all together, all at once, does a huge toll on someone’s mental health. And also there’s no end to it. As much as people say like, you know, we’re just doing this so that you’ll be accountable. I have never seen someone actually successfully be accountable to a degree that the internet was satisfied with that they would then leave that person alone and let them have a life, right? It’s something that very often for a lot of canceled people continues on indefinitely into the future and continues to affect their life in a really serious way. So, for this reason, it is, you know, very much a mental health issue. It is a suicide risk for people. People lose all hope for the future. They don’t know how to deal with the [00:09:00] overwhelming stress of the situation. And I care about that because I care about human beings, and I don’t want them to be suffering. I don’t want them to be dehumanized. I don’t want them to be exiled from the human community. So there’s that piece.

The other piece is that I am a leftist. I care about human beings having their needs met. And I care about things, social issues and human issues, like, for example, climate change. You know, I’m very concerned about climate change, and I would like to have an organized political movement that would actually be able to effectively fight some of the very serious issues that we’re facing, such as climate change and others. But unfortunately, it is very hard to do organized political work when we are constantly attacking each other and tearing each other down. And so cancel culture not only has this really profound impact on human beings, but it also has a very profound impact on our ability to effectively organize, which is something that I am very passionate about because I’m concerned for our future as a species.

Jameela: Something you just referenced is the fact that it goes against our nature to dehumanize [00:10:00] someone. I’m noticing like a rise in people saying that they feel actually very uncomfortable and they feel increasingly lonely and depressed and anxious and mentally unsound from the kind of society that we are now living in. Can you talk to me about why, sociologically, it is bad for us to dehumanize people? Not as in morally, as in like, why it’s bad for us personally to dehumanize people, why it’s unnatural.

Clementine: Okay, so there’s a few things to this. One is that, as a social species, like, we evolved to be highly social animals. It is, it is how we survive. Like, we are primates. And so we, we are social primates who live in groups. And so we evolved in such a way that like we are finely tuned in our capacity to read each other, right? We have mirror neurons in our brain. We can like very closely watch like each other’s facial expressions and read each other’s like minute emotional expressions, right? And this is because our social bonds are the utmost importance to our survival as a social species. [00:11:00] And so we are very finely tuned to being able to read another person’s social cues. And we also can be read by others. And the ability to stay connected and to stay in our group and to feel like we belong is like fundamental to our mental health. So we have this capacity, and one word that you could use to describe this capacity is empathy. We have the ability to empathize with others and to imagine what things are like from their perspective and to feel the pain that they are feeling because we are also human beings. But we also have the capacity to turn our empathy off and we have the capacity to dissociate from the feeling that the other person is having. Even though we have the ability to access that and to feel compassion and to feel empathy, we also have the ability to turn it off. And that also serves a bit of a function for us as well, right? Because, you know, if we are in a situation where we need to like fight for our life or something, we don’t want to be tuning in very closely to what the other [00:12:00] person is feeling, right? So strategically turning off our, our empathy could also have a survival response. But overall, we are a social species and we deeply need to be connected. And that is our primary need as a social species. And so what happens when we are in an environment in which dissociating from other people’s humanity is encouraged and common?

Like, first of all, we start doing that more and more. We are turning off our empathy more and more, which means that we are not having close connections with people. We are not having close relationships.

Jameela: Yeah. And we’re looking at a lot of this information through our phones that have a blue light that literally impacts the empathy that we are able to feel, like impacts the part of our brain that is able to empathize with others. So we have a kind of double whammy going on that we’re then trying to replicate in real life.

Clementine: Totally because obviously, like I just said, all of the cues around, um, reading each other are like, bodily cues, right? They are our facial expressions, our tone of voice, like these types of things. It is way easier to dissociate from empathy through a screen. [00:13:00] Absolutely. Because you can’t even see the person that you’re doing this to. So, you know, I agree that that really highly increases people’s capacity to dissociate. But when you’re in an environment where people are dehumanizing each other all the time, where empathy is being shut off all the time, part of what that’s going to do is that it’s going to make you insecure in your relationships. Because even if you aren’t the one currently being targeted, and maybe you’re the one taking part right now, you also know that this could turn on you at any moment. And so this culture erodes trust and erodes intimacy. It erodes the capacity for people to form close relationships or to feel trusting in their close relationships.

And so people are feeling very insecure and they’re walking around and sometimes people will tell themselves in order to sort of, you know, soothe this dissonance, they will tell themselves, you know, they don’t have to worry about it because they would never do something like that. And if they did do something like that, then they would just be accountable. And so therefore they would never have to deal with this level of like public humiliation and exile. But I think that a lot of people know on some level that there really isn’t a way out of it once you’ve been [00:14:00] targeted and that nothing is ever really good enough. And so I think they do know on some level that if it happened to them, it probably wouldn’t be as easy as that.

Jameela: I also think that, you know, beyond the fact that some people think, oh, I would never do that, therefore I can join in on the dog pile or I can sit by and let the dog pile happen. I think there is a tribal fear in all of us that, well, if I, don’t, as loudly as possible, express my disdain or my disapproval and join this dog pile. Like, I must announce my disapproval so that other people know, so that I will be kept on the inside, so that I will be within the tribe. It’s a kind of safety mechanism and it’s not justifying it, but it is explaining it that some people do that, especially, I think, more inexperienced people, without even realizing it, I’m sure I did, especially when I was younger, you know, joining into the social justice space, you are so rewarded and made to feel so safe and part of a community and part of something when you are super damning to those who make missteps. But as I have [00:15:00] grown older, been on the receiving end of cancel culture, both when, you know, when it’s fair for me to be called out out and called in, but also sometimes over like egregious nonsense and lies. Firstly, I had that experience and secondly, it’s grown out of control since it started. At the beginning, it felt like we were just boycotting things. We were boycotting companies or boycotting people in immense power and just choosing to withdraw our funds or attention. But it has gnarled into something that feels gratuitous and full of very violent communication. And it feels like an incredibly controlling part of culture and society in a way that no longer makes any of us feel safe. Now it feels like we’re acting not from a place of just tribalism but from a place of like abject terror. And it’s not that I’m saying like, oh you can’t say anything anymore. It’s more that I’m very concerned for the rising anxiety, the rising rates of loneliness, the hard [00:16:00] statistics we have as to the breakdown of our society, and I think it is heavily linked to the fact that we don’t know how to talk to each other anymore, we don’t know how to extend grace, we demonize like, considering grace and look at empathy and grace as, as weakness and betrayal.

Clementine: You know, it can feel righteous and it can feel empowering to scapegoat someone and to turn them into the problem because then if they’re the problem, then you can feel like, you know, exiling them causes the solution when in reality our problems are a lot more complex than that.

But underneath that, I think that it feels really, really bad. And I think that people kind of dissociate from how bad it actually feels. But as a social species, we do want to connect with each other. And I firmly believe that, and perhaps that is what makes me a bit of an optimist despite how horrible the circumstances are that we’re currently in. I believe in people and I do know that people want to connect and I know that people light up when they feel included, when they see each other’s humanity, when other people see their humanity. And so I’m trying to lean into that and not just see the worst of us, but I also know that we are [00:17:00] capable of some really awful things and we are most capable of the really awful things when we’re dissociating from each other’s humanity.

Jameela: For sure. And I want to get on to what it feels like to go through something like that and the mental health impact.

But beforehand, I think just from a place of pure logic, something else that you’ve said through your work, which I found very poignant, is that it’s very rare that cancel culture actually prevents further abuse or, you know, further of the behavior that we have seen.

Clementine: Yeah, this is a controversial opinion of mine that people get mad at me for, but one of the things that I’m really upset about is that I actually feel like cancel culture appropriates language and strategies that were developed, like, through a movement against domestic violence.

And domestic violence, like, abusing someone, like, physically abusing someone, degrading someone, like, any of these, like, really horrible and violent things, they’re very serious, right? [00:18:00] And they do require like a serious response, but I think that anyone, I am a survivor of domestic violence, anyone who’s been in a really dangerous abusive relationship like that knows that putting your abuser on blast on the internet would not make you safer. Like if I were to put my abuser on blast on the internet, he would come after me because he is a scary, violent guy. So the idea that you can like socially shame someone who’s that violent into just stopping is not very realistic.

Secondly, you know, if people are going to change and transform their behaviors in the long term, what they need is community. They actually need community and resources, not exile and shame. And, you know, I think that the arguments around cancel culture as a tool to address like serious things like abuse. It’s, there’s similar arguments are made about like prisons, right? Prisons might temporarily solve the problem in the sense that like the person can’t abuse people outside of prison because they’re inside [00:19:00] prison, but they can abuse people who are inside prison and there are people in there. They’re just dehumanized people who we don’t care that they’re experiencing violence, but the violence continues inside the prison, right? And so when they get out, they’re now more traumatized, um, and so the chances of them behaving in like more violent ways is just increasing, you know? So when you strip someone of everything that they need to heal and to grow, the chances of them actually healing and growing like highly decreases.

And this is not to say that we should not intervene on violence. I absolutely believe that we should intervene on violence, but I believe that there is a way of intervening on violence that is not dehumanizing and that does not exile people and does not, um, treat them as garbage.

Um, and again, so many of the things that people are being cancelled for have nothing to do with everything that I just said. And it’s part of what really annoys me is that I’m like, I would love to have serious conversations about how to end things like domestic violence, like this is a topic that is very close to my heart, but cancel culture isn’t doing that. It’s not ending [00:20:00] domestic violence. It’s just cancelling people for usually more often than not, things like conflict, disagreement, etc. And then we still have domestic violence, so I don’t really see how it’s helping.

Jameela: Yeah, absolutely. And I’m sorry, you know, I’m incredibly sorry to hear that this is something that you’ve had to experience and live with. I also think it’s important to state that if what you’ve said feels, um, I don’t know, very controversial to someone, it is at the heart, like, what, what you’re saying is very similar to the concept behind restorative justice.

Clementine: Yeah, for me, like, a lot of where these ideas come from is my experience in 12 step programs. Because, um, for as much as cancel culture, you know, likes to pat itself on the back for, you know, taking abuse seriously, I don’t really see it effectively changing things. I just see it actually traumatizing people more and more and, you know, actually creating more abuse. Whereas in 12 step programs, I have seen people [00:21:00] change. Like, I have seen people who were all on drugs, being really horrible to the people in their lives, doing abusive things, you know, just generally not being a good person in, in the lives of the people that they love and who love them. And then through community and through support and through resourcing did manage to change and did manage to transform their lives in like very significant and meaningful and like sustainable ways, you know? So I think it’s my experience in seeing that happen that I know that there is a way that works. It’s just that, you know, because I’m, I’m an alcoholic and like when I was drinking and when I was in a totally insane place and my life was like, really awful, if I had come into 12 step programs, and they were like, you’re a piece of shit, hold yourself accountable, fuck you, you know? I would have left, like, I would have been like, my life sucks enough already, like, I’m not gonna just take further abuse from you people, and I’m in so much pain, that’s why I’m acting in these horrible ways, so I’m just gonna go and continue what I’m doing then.

But actually, when I went in there, people were like, we see the best in you. We are not [00:22:00] cosigning your behavior. We think that your behavior, it does not reflect what you are capable of as a person. And we actually want more from you and we believe that you want more for yourself. And so like, we are going to believe in you and we’re going to help you. We’re going to help you get what you need to become the person that you want to be. And like, that is what I think we culturally need to be doing. And I think when I say things like that, people are like, well, it’s not my responsibility. I don’t want to have to do that for the person who abused me. And I’m like, I’m absolutely not saying that you have to do that for the person who abused you. That would be totally like inappropriate. That’s not your role, but culturally we do need to help people who are behaving in abusive ways and I think that’s the only way that abuse is going to be transformed. And as a survivor, that’s very important to me.

Jameela: And we see that as something that we are explicitly just doing for them, right? That’s one of the issues, is that we don’t see it as, no, this is how we heal our society. Pushing people to the outskirts, into the shadows, where we just don’t have to look at them anymore, doesn’t actually fix our society. It just, we’re just throwing, we’re throwing increasing amounts of people away. We’re [00:23:00] disposing of them, but they’re not gone. They’re around and more likely to commit harm, maybe just on someone that we can’t see anymore because we’ve removed them from our personal space.

So a lot of people, and I think I’ve said this before, say that there’s no such thing as cancel culture because we see very, very, very like successful people come back and find other means of being able to still be successful or popular or powerful. But I think the thing that we all miss when we say that, myself included, is that it’s not just celebrities, it exists in school, because what you’re talking about as cancel culture is the ostracization, the loss of, of everything that you have, the loss of hope in and of itself. Like that can happen in the workplace, it can happen to people who don’t have means of finding another way to access finances or access community and friendship, etc. And so that’s why it’s very important that we talk about the culture in and of itself and not always focus on just like the Louis C. K. Or the whatever famous [00:24:00] musician has been able to come back from.

Clementine: Yeah. So the vast majority of canceled people are not rich, are not famous, and you and I have never heard of them. Actually, I might have heard of them because they all come to me, but, and so basically it’s like, the vast majority of cancelled people are nobodies, and I think people don’t understand this, because you’re right, the conversation always comes to these celebrities who have experienced cancel culture.

My focus in my work is not on celebrities, and it’s not that I don’t have compassion for celebrities, I do, I think that the way we treat celebrities is fucking weird and very dehumanizing. But, I also know that celebrities, not always, but often, have access to a lot more in terms of resources to protect themselves. So they have money, they have lawyers, they have a whole, like they have PR people, they have stuff that regular working people cannot dream of having in terms of protecting themselves from this. The vast majority of cancelled people are are [00:25:00] just regular people, and so people are like, okay, well, why are they being canceled? Because social media has completely confused our idea of celebrity.

And so back in the day, we used to have this little agreement with celebrities, which was this, we will give you lots and lots of money, and in return, we get to dehumanize you. So we will take your personal life and we will put it in the tabloids. We will use your personal life as entertainment. And we will, you know, make fun of the way you look in the tabloids, and put all your personal drama in the tabloids and like laugh at you sometimes and also pedestalize you sometimes. And in return, you get a bunch of money. And that was the agreement. Now, because of social media, we have this weird idea that we can just have parasocial relationships with everyone. And so everyone is treating themselves kind of like a micro celebrity and like a brand. And everyone is using social media in this way whether you have like a thousand followers or a couple thousand followers or whatever, you are now being seen and your life is being seen by a [00:26:00] huge number of people that it was not possible before social media for that many people to know about just a regular person, right? So, many people who, you know, maybe they have a band, like a small indie band, and they are like kind of known in their scene. Or maybe they run a small vegan bakery in their city. Or maybe they are a hairdresser.

Jameela: I can see you’re pulling from like, uh, examples of the kinds of people who have, these are very specific.

Clementine: Yes, and, and also very common, common cancelled stories. And so these are people who, you know, maybe they run a small business, or maybe they are an artist of some kind, and some aspect of what they do has a bit of a public facing part of it. And also sometimes it’s not even that. It could just be that they are kind of no one in their local scene and they have a social media presence. That’s it. They might not even be someone who has a public facing job. But because of social media, what happens is, is that a call out happens, it’s put on the internet, the person is named, the accusations are made, and then there [00:27:00] is a demand that we all withdraw social and material support from the person. And so, that person, whoever they are, now it is a social crime to be friends with them, to follow them, to support their work, to have empathy for them, to date them, to care about them, and that is enforced. And I really want to make that clear too, because I think that people have this fantasy that cancel culture is just people choosing to withdraw their support. And that’s not true. You’re free to withdraw your support. If you don’t like a certain musician or you just don’t like a person and you don’t want to be friends with them, that’s fine. That was always allowed. You don’t have to follow anyone on the internet. You don’t have to buy anybody’s music. You don’t have to visit the vegan bakery. You don’t have to be friends with someone, that is always allowed. The problem is, is when you then go around and tell everybody else that they have to have the same boundary that you have. Everybody else has to unfollow. Everybody else has to stop being that person’s friend. Everybody else has to put that person on blast. Everybody else has to refuse to support that person’s [00:28:00] projects. And it even goes so far as, you know, trying to get the person fired from their job, trying to take away all their material resources. Sometimes people get kicked out of the house that they’re living in. And so, you

Jameela: They get kicked out of the school that they’re going to. Like, I mean, it really goes all the way through society.

Clementine: Yes. And many of the people who are taking part in this are doing so literally under duress. They are being coerced into doing it because they are being threatened. And so the way that cancel culture works is they will literally do things. And like, you’ve probably seen it. I’ve seen it a million times where someone will be like, why do I still have 30 followers in common with this person? And they will start putting those people on blast on the internet, tagging them and publicly naming them. You are still supporting this person. You follow them on Instagram. So therefore you still support this person. Hold them accountable. And so now for the person who, you know, is just following this other person online, do you want to go down with that ship? No, most people are just like, I don’t even know what happened. I’m not involved. I’m [00:29:00] certainly not going to get canceled for this random person who I just like follow them because like, whatever, I kind of liked their music or like we’re in the same scene. So they will just quietly unfollow. And this extends not just to people who are following them online, but it extends to all that person’s real life friends. So like I was canceled. When I was canceled, every single person in my life started to receive messages saying, you need to hold Clementine accountable, and you need to publicly denounce her. And if you’re still remaining in her life, you are a part of the problem. And people could not handle that, and they left my life en masse. And so, like, that’s how it works. It’s not just that people are individually deciding to do that, it’s that there’s a massive social pressure to do it.

Jameela: It’s something that I’m currently experiencing right now.

Clementine: Yes.

Jameela: That exact thing, because I put love hearts under Lizzo’s post. She was pushing back against allegations. I can see how what I’ve done has been misconstrued. But I then [00:30:00] went on to explain why I did that, right? Very, very clearly, in which I just said, listen, like regardless of what the allegations are, we are seeing a human being being eaten alive, like truly maimed online. And this woman, by the way, has been more maimed than any celebrity I think I’ve ever seen in history. Maybe all celebrities combined don’t receive as much hatred as Lizzo has since day one of her career. Now, she’s being subjected to not just ostracization, not just loss of jobs and stuff, loss of popularity, that’s one thing. And it’s, it’s still bad, but racists, bigots are coming after her in a way that is so extraordinary that it seems unsurvivable. And I’m sorry to focus this on a celebrity who’s incredibly powerful, but I’m just giving an example of this. And so my problem is with the fact that we leave our own for dead when we disapprove of something they, they have done. And I know that we’re supposed to believe everyone, but that doesn’t logically make sense [00:31:00] and doesn’t serve victims getting more justice at large. But we leave them for dead and we allow them to be subjected to all kinds of horror by the worst people, people who we fundamentally disagree with so much more than this one person.

And I disagree with that as a culture. I have seen people die from these kind of pile ons and I don’t want this human being, regardless of whether she has power or money, to die over this. I would like whatever’s gone wrong to change, and I believe most human beings are capable of that needed change and that seeing that change publicly would be more helpful to society at large, rather than this person dying from an almost unsurvivable amount of abuse and ostracization.

So, in my head, I just thought, what would I need right now? I would need just the tiniest bit of humanity. Even from someone, like, I don’t know Lizzo personally, I didn’t, I, I, if I’d had her number maybe I would have texted her, but I, I don’t. But I just saw a woman who has already been abused [00:32:00] since I’ve known of her name, every day being maimed and it just being allowed by everyone because everyone’s too afraid to extend any grace or humanity to that person. I’m not supporting everything that she’s said or done. I’m not going against the the victims and it is seen as one or the other. If you just extend a tiny bit of fucking humanity or grace or like, hey, the world’s not over, there’s still love in the world for you.

Clementine: Yeah.

Jameela: Please don’t hurt yourself, is what my four little love hearts meant, but instead, what’s happening now is I’m being hugely called out on the internet, which is fine, but people are sending me threatening messages all day and saying like, if you don’t take back your love hearts or denounce Lizzo, you are going to lose this following or we’re going to do this to you or we’re going to get you kicked off of this show, you should kill yourself.

I’m being bombarded just for extending a tiny bit of love to someone who is being objectively like destroyed by bigots.

Clementine: Yes.

Jameela: What we’re seeing is not [00:33:00] calling out. What we’re not seeing is a call for accountability. We’re seeing that and abuse, and we’re not allowed to interrupt abuse if that person’s broken the rules.

Clementine: Yes.

Jameela: And that I fundamentally can’t get behind. Maybe I’ll change my mind on that one day, but it feels incredibly wrong and incredibly against humanity.

Clementine: Yes. And, you know, it is very common, you know, for people who are marginalized in like multiple ways to be targeted by this, and then they have nowhere to fucking go. I mean, like, you know, Lizzo, obviously, as you’ve said, she experiences like a bunch of really negative shit. She’s also famous, but like, there’s also cases where, you know, there’s people who are just regular people and they experience like multiple types of marginalization in their day to day life. Like, I’m queer and in queer world, you know, many people are in the queer community because they don’t have a relationship with their family of origin. You know there’s a lot of queer and trans people who experience like a lot of fucking bullshit from mainstream society, and we come to our community to belong somewhere. Then when we get canceled from that [00:34:00] community, we are just subjected to huge amounts of dehumanization and harassment from within our queer community and from the culture at large, you know?

Jameela: And so where does someone, therefore, where does anyone think this is gonna go? And so my problem isn’t the fact that people are calling me out or even that people are threatening me. I’m fine, I can handle it, I, you know, I’ve been through this fucking shit before, but I’m more concerned for the people who don’t have again, my access to, if I need a bit of therapy, or if I need a bit of support, or if I can just step away. But I’m really worried about the fact that the way that we’re talking to these people online, however famous they may or may not be, is filtering down into what kids are looking at. And then kids are replicating that behavior, not just online, but to each other’s faces in the classroom. This is another part of my massive concern of something that I’m thinking about, where I’m like, we need to like, zoom out a little bit here and look ahead as to where this behavior goes, because it always trickles down to the children. And then they are even less equipped than we are to be able to handle this, because they don’t [00:35:00] even understand what’s happening. And when you’re young, really young at school, you really think that this is the be all and end all. You really think that your world is within the four walls of your school. Or your home. You don’t know about the big world outside of there. And that’s why we’re seeing an increase, I think, in teenage suicide because they don’t know that there’s a way out or that there’s life after this. And we are perpetuating a culture in which we teach children, because they’re watching us online, how to dismiss, dehumanize, and dispose of one another, regardless of the size of the mistake made.

Clementine: Yeah.

Jameela: And it disturbs me.

Clementine: And I mean, I am concerned that people are treating you that way, you know. I think it’s wrong that people are treating you that way. And I think that it’s very disturbing that extending a little bit of grace and compassion is such a punishable offense, that now people are coming for you, you know. It crushes people’s capacity to be kind, generous, and gracious. It makes extending compassion, you know, to someone who’s being targeted a crime in and of [00:36:00] itself. And also, it crushes critical thinking and the capacity to, like, be ethical thinkers ourselves, right? Like, I, I do take being an ethical, like, thinker and actor in the world very seriously. It’s very important to me. But I see this as, like, I call it outsourcing your integrity, right? If you are just going to check the box, follow the rules, do what you’re told. How do you know if you’re doing the right thing or not? You’re just doing what you’re told. Like, being ethical is a lot more complicated than just doing what you’re told. It’s actually about thinking deeply. Like, listening widely, thinking deeply, and deciding what you think is right, you know, and very often with what the right thing to do is, is not going to be the popular thing. And very often you’re going to get in trouble for it. So I don’t think that it’s a good idea to be telling people that the way to be ethical is to basically sit down, shut up and do what you’re told. Like that does not lead to a culture of responsible thinkers who take behaving ethically seriously. You know, it just [00:37:00] is a bunch of scared people who are just going to follow orders. I don’t see that as justice, and I don’t see that as, like, positive, like, progress forward.

Jameela: We also need to learn how to look at things on a case by case basis, and we need to look at things within a system of, like, within at least, like, some sort of spectrum as to what is bad, what is worse, uh, what is a bigger crime than anything else. Like, we, we have this, this habit of conflating everything into just one umbrella that I think is incredibly traumatic and reductive to people who’ve experienced extreme harm or extreme violence. It’s hard when the word abuse or assault or all these different things can sometimes be somewhat diluted in the potency. We don’t have an alternative word, we just keep the same word for everything. Violence has now got so many different meanings beyond an act of physical harm. And that’s really, really tricky. And so we are losing the critical, thinking faculty that we need to decide how to [00:38:00] engage with each different situation.

And we also have lost the ability to recognize that there is a difference between, uh, someone who has made a mistake that might have caused actual harm and someone who’s an actual predator. Like, we need to learn how to recognize, uh, people’s intention and we need to have value in recognizing someone’s intention because someone’s intention is how we know how likely someone is to repeat offend, right?

Clementine: Yes, and I also think that it’s very absurd that we the internet think that we know like what happened in situations that we weren’t involved in. Like, I do not think that even like ranging from like conflicts, disagreement all the way to like serious situations of abuse, I really don’t think this stuff is going to get solved and worked out on the internet. Like, a bunch of strangers who are in some kind of a way consuming this as entertainment, to be honest, which is fucking inappropriate and weird because it is like the tabloids, you know, it’s, this is not entertainment, but also people who are not involved and who don’t actually know the people involved who don’t actually like [00:39:00] have the whole story, who weren’t there, who don’t have all the information,

Jameela: Who just read a headline.

Clementine: Yeah. And now we’re just going to cast judgment. And like, for as much as like, you know, I am an abolitionist and I do want to see the current state of, you know, with the courts and the prisons to be totally radically changed from what they are, I think that there are actually some good aspects of the current system that cancel culture totally does away with and one of those is the right to a trial. Like I actually believe that people should have the right to defend themselves against accusations. They should have the right to say their side of the story. They should have the right to like, you know, a lawyer or like, a defense of some kind. This is one of the things that abolitionists have fought for is that accused people have the right to say their side of things. And currently under cancel culture, that is a crime. Like the only correct answer when you have been called on the internet is to just say yes. I will be accountable. I will take on all of these accusations. And very many people who are being cancelled, they will, if you ask them, they will say many of those accusations are not true or it’s not a fair and accurate representation of what happened.

And like, [00:40:00] sometimes they’ll be like, yes, I did act in some ways that were not great, and I can own that. And I didn’t do these other things that I’m being accused of. And so I can’t just be accountable for all of it because it’s not actually all true or it’s not actually all a fair representation of, like, what I understand to have happened, you know?

Jameela: Yeah. And so people will hear that and push back against that sometimes with, well, we have a system that doesn’t believe victims, which you and I both have experienced at varying degrees. And so, therefore, we have no other way other than believe all victims.

Clementine: And so what I want to say to that is here’s, here’s a situation that, that happens. Um, say there’s like a domestic disturbance and it’s a situation where a guy is beating his wife on a regular basis and there was screaming and yelling and say, maybe in the, in the conflict, you know, she like smacked him back. The, the cops are called because the neighbors called the police, the police show up and he says, she hit me. This is something that literally happens, and domestic violence victims are sometimes [00:41:00] charged with assault because of a false accusation. And if she’s in a situation that is like worse off than him, for example, she doesn’t have citizenship or something, she can be totally fucked by that situation. And people who work in domestic violence, um, services, like, know about this. It’s something that happens. Sometimes the person who is abusive, accuses the victim of abuse. It is something that abusers sometimes do. And the thing is, is that if you believe that abusers are people who want to control their target, who want to destroy their target’s life, who have no problem with being dishonest, what makes you think that somebody who is abusive would not use cancel culture to their own ends if they want to? If I claim to be a victim of someone, and I know that that is without any question, without any evidence, without any anything, going to result in that person being socially ostracized, driven from community, losing their career, if I want to attack someone in that way and I can just do it, I definitely think that there’s [00:42:00] people who would do that.

And so, I just think that it’s a little more complicated than just simply believing all accusations. And maybe I’ll share a story that is, like, related to this that might, might be easier for people to hear than the way that I just said it. I once falsely accused my ex partner of abusing me when they did not. And I literally didn’t do it in a malicious and intentional way of trying to destroy their life, but literally, this is a true story, okay? So I was abused when I was, like, in 23. I was, like, abused. I was, like, put through a wall, like, violently abused. Plus, I have complex PTSD from all the trauma that I had in my life. Later in my 20s, I had a partner who was avoidant attachment style, and I was anxious preoccupied attachment style, and I don’t know if you know about that, but it basically means that I was constantly wanting more attention than I was getting in the relationship, and I was just very unhappy, and I wasn’t getting my needs met. And neither of us knew anything about attachment theory. So it was just like an unhappy relationship where I was constantly like feeling jealous, feeling sad, feeling lonely. [00:43:00] And I eventually left the relationship. And then when I left the relationship, I had like this insanely intense nervous system reaction about it. I felt like I was dying and every single time I saw my ex, I had like a panic attack. And so I was like, wow, this is a very intense reaction that I’m having. I wonder why I’m having that. The reason I was having it is because I have complex PTSD and anxious preoccupied attachment style. So like, I was having a very disproportionate reaction to something. The community that I was in at the time, some well meaning friends, suggested that perhaps I was having that reaction because I had been emotionally abused in that relationship. And so I looked back at that relationship and was like, was I emotionally abused in that relationship? And I looked back at the many conflicts that we had had, the many nights that I had cried, and I was like, perhaps that was emotional abuse. And so I started to tell people that my ex emotionally abused me, and I did not believe that I was lying. I just genuinely thought that it was true. And then fortunately for me, I have a trauma therapist. I still have the same therapist, and I [00:44:00] was talking and she knows my history, she knows my life. And I told her about this relationship. And then I started to describe it to her as an emotionally abusive relationship. And my therapist challenged me on that. And she said, that was an unhappy relationship, not an abusive one. And it’s very important for you to be able to discern the difference because you have complex PTSD. And so you have a hard time knowing. Sometimes you ignore actual abuse that’s happening, and sometimes you think that things that are not abusive are abusive. And so literally like trauma is a disability in which we have nervous system and emotional reactions that are appropriate to things that happened in the past, in the present. That’s what it is.

Jameela: Mm-Hmm.

Clementine: And so if you are traumatized from child abuse, from previous abusive relationships, it actually makes a lot of sense that something like conflict or mismatched needs or just being unhappy in a relationship could be so dysregulating that you come to genuinely believe that the person abused you instead of it just being an unhappy relationship with normative conflict.[00:45:00]

Jameela: It’s fucking astounding the amount that you share personally. And I don’t mean that in a judgmental way. I mean, I’m literally astounded by it. I’m very in awe as to, like, how raw you are because I don’t know fucking anyone who would admit to that. And I’m really glad that you did, because you admit to it in a way that it’s actually, becomes increasingly relatable and understandable as the story goes on. But, fuck me, why are you so raw publicly?

Clementine: Well, I think it’s just because I don’t feel like, okay, so just to be clear, I made amends to that ex, you know, I, I apologized. I, I made repair, I said I was sorry, I admitted that, that it was incorrect.

Jameela: You told people that you told.

Clementine: I also frequently tell this story, which is part of my amends, which is that I am correcting the narrative, you know, um, and so, I have made repair to the best of my ability in that circumstance, and so I guess like the thing is for me is that like I am, I have had a crazy fucking insane life, you know, and I have had a lot of trauma happen to me. [00:46:00] I have behaved in all sorts of ways that were not great, I have had absolutely horrific abuse happen to me, and you know, I was like a street involved alcoholic acting crazy for years, and then I have gone on this long, long journey of recovery, and like becoming more of myself, and like figuring out what I believe and who I am. And like in the 12 steps, you know, in Alcoholics Anonymous, I learned so much about integrity and what it means to be in your integrity and what it means to live your life in accordance with principles that mean something to you. And so, it is more important to me to live my life in integrity than it is for me to be liked. And it is more important for me to tell the truth than it is for me to be popular or to, you know, try to avoid being harassed. I just can’t at this point, you know? And I have come too far, too long to hide. And so I don’t feel any shame about the things that I’m saying, you know? Like, I have acted in ways that, um, were not great. And I think that part of it is, you [00:47:00] know, is that, the worldview in which I should feel so horrible and ashamed about that is just, it’s not my worldview. That’s the cancelers worldview. And I think part of the reason why cancelers are freaking out when I say that they’re being abusive is because in their worldview, they believe that people who have been abusive deserve to be abused. But I’m not saying that. I’m saying you’re behaving in ways that are really dehumanizing and cruel, and I wish you would stop. But no, I’m not going to put you on blast. I’m not going to come for you. I am not going to make a website about you. I am not going to name you to all my followers so that they can just harass you even though I told them not to, you know. I’m never going to do to them the things that they do to me and others. And I’m actually going to extend them grace and compassion. And I’m going to say to the cancelers, like, I actually think that this is not in alignment with your best self and this is not in alignment with your principles if you actually dig deep and get honest with yourself and so I wish you well and I hope that you can grow on your journey.

Jameela: Honestly [00:48:00] the 12 step thing I think is such an accessible way to put all of this. And I think it’s something that we need more of in our society. It’s learning more from those principles and, and the concept of actual accountability, not just a notes app, apology, or like a quick tiktok, you know, of who, you know, if you’re some teenager who’s fucked up on the internet, um, actual amends and recuperation and redemption.

Clementine: Yes.

Jameela: And also the fact that, you know, everyone is, it’s such a spectrum of where people are at within AA. You know, some people it’s day one for them and they are fresh in the shit. And then some people they’ve been sober for 20 years and they’ve been living a reformed life. And from what I know of AA from my friends who are in it, is that everyone is encouraged to have everyone’s back. And so the person who’s currently like maybe just fresh out of fucking jail for the DUI that they [00:49:00] committed. Uh, the, the teaching is never to ostracize or judge that person in the moment. It is to rally around them and make sure that you do whatever you can to make sure that they don’t, you, you feel a sense of responsibility for them. People become each other’s sponsors, not for money, not for, it’s all anonymous, so you’re not doing it for, for praise of the community. You are taught that it is a fundamental need for you to be that person’s crutch, even if you think what they have done is deplorable under the influence. You are fighting for the inner child in that person who,

Clementine: Exactly.

Jameela: Somewhere along the way went wrong. And I think that’s fucking beautiful. And I think that that is essentially what both of us hope to be a part of implementing in the world. I massively hold my hands up as to my pitchfork past and the fact that in 2018, before we’d gotten to where we are now, I was so vocal and like, fuck you, you’re a fucking terrible feminist, you’re a this, that, and the other, double agent at the patriarchy, all this shit. [00:50:00] And even if there was something true about what I was saying, the way I said it, I’ve expressed many times in this podcast, I have tremendous remorse, even against men that I fucking despise, who’ve driven me to near suicide, public figures, I still regret speaking back to them in the way that they spoke to me. I regret it. I regret calling men incels on the internet if they were horrible to me and vile and sexist. I, I regret being a part of the cycle of abuse. I don’t, I, I don’t want it anymore. And I had no idea that it was going to go to where it’s gone as a culture and that it was going to become so out of control and such a wide array of things could end up with everyone being equally ostracized and equally punished. I had no idea that’s where this is going to go. I wouldn’t have joined this culture had I known. COVID really exacerbated it, but I feel so much like I owe it to anyone who followed me for my pitchfork ways to go, no, no, no, no, no, no. That wasn’t actually the way forward. That is not restorative. [00:51:00] That doesn’t fix anything. And if we don’t believe that people can change, literally, what is the point of activism?

Clementine: Yeah.

Jameela: What is the point of the slogans and the flags if we don’t actually think anyone can change and get better?

Clementine: Yeah.

Jameela: And so, you know, being able to have you on my podcast, however many people are now going to fucking text me, you know, DM me angry things because I dared to have you on the podcast.

I really appreciate your candor. I really appreciate your outlook. I really appreciate how hard the journey has been to get you to this place, and that you’ve come out of quite a lot of pain and dehumanization from all kinds of different places, even your own, to get to a place of so much love and optimism. It’s extraordinary. And credit to you, credit to the people that, you know, emotionally support you, but that is the world that I want to be a part of. It’s where someone like you can go through all of that and see all of that and be so encouraged to go into the darkness because you feel like you’ve been discarded and disregarded. And you’ve come out of it being like, no, I’m going to keep fighting for us. I [00:52:00] believe in us. It’s crazy to me that people look at this as bad.

Clementine: Yeah.

Jameela: They look at it as weak. It’s so strong.

Clementine: Thank you. I mean, I really appreciate that. And I think that it took me a long time to get here, you know, and I also relate, like, I also took part in all of this. I also took part in cancel culture. Like, you know, I also was looking for simple answers to deal with the pain that I was feeling. I also, you know, had fantasies of revenge. I am totally, I came through all of that and that’s why I don’t, I’m not shaming and condemning it. I understand it. It’s also a human thing, you know, like it’s also a human response and I get it. And I think that it’s not leading us anywhere good. It’s not transforming the problems that we want to transform. And I really think that we can do better. And so, you know, and like, in the 12 steps, when you actually learn how to take real responsibility for the things that you’ve done wrong, like, that is a really transformative experience, and it’s something that I believe in deeply, and I wish more people knew about, you know?

[00:53:00] But, like, you know the step where you make amends is step 9? It’s not step 1, it’s step 9. And so you have to do all those other steps first. And the way that, like, cancel culture works is they demand that people are just at step 9 right now. And, like, in 12 steps, they, it’s the opposite. They absolutely are, like, do not, do not go start making amends right now. You just got into the program, you know, it’s going to take you some time and you have to go through all of these other steps and go through this whole process to actually figure out what it is that you need to be responsible for. Like, what are your principles? What are your values? How did you act out of alignment with them? Like, why do you want to change? What do you need to change? How are you going to change in a way that’s sustainable so that you don’t just apologize and then go do the same thing again, you know? Um, and importantly, when I first did my fifth step, which is where you tell someone, you tell your sponsor everything wrong you’ve ever done in your life, okay?

The first time that I did that step, I wrote down every time someone was mad at me, okay? Because I believed that every time someone was mad at me [00:54:00] was an example of something that I had done wrong. And so my sponsor talked me through this step and was like, what did you do wrong here? And in many cases, people were mad at me, but what I had done was express an opinion, set a boundary, you know, like, basic things that were not wrong, they were just conflict, and I had not acted out of my integrity, I had not acted in a way that was disrespectful, I had not acted in a way that was cruel, I was, I had not acted in a way that was like negligent or unthinking. I had just found something that someone didn’t like. And so, what my sponsor told me is, you do not make amends for those things because that is actually taking responsibility for their side of the street. That’s taking responsibility for their emotional reaction to you. It’s not taking responsibility for yourself. And so, because I take amends so seriously, and I have made amends, and I still do that, like, if I have done something that is wrong, I take that very seriously, and I do the work, and I, I make amends, like, when I am able and ready to do that in a sincere way. I will not [00:55:00] disrespect my amends like that by taking responsibility for something that is not my responsibility because that is codependent people pleasing. And it is actually insulting to the sacred process of making amends to say, okay, you’re mad at me, but I didn’t do anything wrong. So now I’m going to appease you by apologizing. And so I won’t do that. And that is a large reason why I am cancelled.

Jameela: Fucking cancelled as you say on your podcast.

No, I can see that. I think the fact that it’s 9 is so important and brilliant. The way that we clamor for such an immediate perfect response just means that what we’re getting is as you’ve touched on many times today is obedience. And as we’ve seen, you know, when the [00:56:00] votes come in, you know, or when systems shift, is that obedience doesn’t actually necessarily change someone’s mind. It might change what they say, but it doesn’t change the way that they vote. And we see that all the time. We see it all the time that everyone’s so like, what? How could this happen? I thought everyone was like, no, no, no, no, no. People said they were or they said nothing, but they went and voted with their heart because you hadn’t actually changed their mind.

Clementine: Yes, exactly.

Jameela: You just changed their vocabulary. And I think that’s the thing that leading up to all these terrifying elections I’m like, we can’t go, that’s another part of my motivation to be like, we’ve got to fucking find another way. Got to stop writing each other off. Got to stop throwing people away because like we have a terrible habit of feeling safe just because people are saying the right thing, but

Clementine: Yeah.

Jameela: But we keep lifting a lid and finding these new underbellies of society who were there all along. They just weren’t saying how they felt and so therefore we didn’t have an opportunity to challenge their opinions. [00:57:00] And then they just stayed that way and waited till they had their moment and seized it.

Clementine: I think anyone who is like a parent or who like knows children can really understand this because it’s like, look, if you tell a kid that’s bad and like, because I said so, that’s why, like the kid is going to pretend to not do the thing because they know they’re going to get in trouble, but they’re probably still going to secretly do the thing because they want to. But if you, if you actually like help a child to see why you’re saying that that’s not a good thing to do and you help that child to actually connect with their own sense of right and wrong, right? So like, you know, don’t do this because it hurts someone’s feelings and you don’t like it when your own feelings are hurt, right? Like, or like, you should brush your teeth because, you know, otherwise you get cavities and that is really painful. You don’t want that. Helping them to actually understand so that they make the choice themselves is so much more sustainable in the long run than just using, like, fear and punishment. And I think that parenting [00:58:00] today is like catching up to this new understanding that like, you know, it’s not to say you never set boundaries with children, you do, but ultimately if we want them to grow up, we need them to come to that themselves and to understand their own reasons for following rules.

And so similarly with this, like, I’m just like, you know, if we want people to change, we need to connect it to their own values and their own principles. And like, because I have this deeply held belief that people are naturally empathetic they just dissociate from it, I don’t think it’s that hard. I think that if we actually show people that it is wrong to dehumanize others because dehumanizing others is cruel and because it feels bad to be dehumanized. We don’t like it when we’re dehumanized, so let’s not do that to others. I think that that’s, I mean, I know it’s so basic. People will just roll their eyes at me because it’s so basic, but I’m like, I actually think on a certain level, it really is that basic. And I think that there is a way for us to, to connect on our common humanity even across our many differences, and to help people to arrive at their own decision not to dehumanize others, you know? [00:59:00]

Jameela: Mm.

Clementine: And so, that’s at least my philosophy and what I try to do and, you know, because I am not condemning and like, for example, just, I’m a queer person, right? Like I’m queer and, but I’m outspoken. I say my own thing. Do you know how many people come to me who like, conservative Christians, like I have been on podcasts and conservative Christians have messaged me and been like, wow, I actually have never thought about things that way. And because I am not being scolded, I’m actually way more open to hearing your message.

Jameela: Yes, I have this all the time.

Clementine: I have had conservative Christians like ask me about pronouns and literally be like, I just don’t understand what’s going on. And I’m really defensive about being, you know, told off all the time, but like, you’re not telling me off, so I’m curious, you know, and, and I’m like, okay, great. Now we can have a conversation. And that is the approach that I have. Like, I don’t want to condemn people. I want to send an invitation for people to step into their own integrity. And I think that people will if we create the right circumstances for them to do that.

Jameela: Yeah. And I think sometimes within the social justice circles, sometimes people [01:00:00] don’t have the answer as to why something’s wrong exactly so therefore we take the easy route which is just to say you are bad, you are wrong, you are not allowed to be platformed on any podcast, we don’t want to hear what you have to say because it challenges what we have to and that’s very rare, but it does happen. And I’ve seen it happen before where we don’t actually have the logical good answer, so therefore we just demonize and make sure that that person can’t be heard anywhere. We just sort of, you know what I’m talking about. We just kind of get rid of them. And we tell anyone who speaks to that person, you are platforming that person. You were indulging that person. You are humanizing that person. You are bad to do that. So we scare everyone out of talking to them. And then we can’t hear that person’s voice. It does not mean that person’s voice isn’t heard by other people in the school or in the office or on a podcast or in the media. It just means that we get them away from us. But I do think that that’s something that we have to question ourselves is like, am I shutting down this conversation and shaming this person [01:01:00] because that is the only way to get through to them or is it because I actually don’t have the answer to that and I don’t want to engage in and I don’t want to face the reality that actually I don’t have the perfect answer to that, to the question that’s making me uncomfortable? I don’t know what the perfect answer is. Are you just stopping them from talking? It’s just an interesting thing that I’ve, I’ve noticed more and more. And now I check that instinct to be like, you’re a fucking terrible person, just to check like, what is the answer? How would I break this down? I don’t mean this in a condescending way, but how would I break this down to a child? Or like, how would I break this down very simply, my answer? And if I can’t, I have to take a fucking step back. I can’t turn that around on them.

Clementine: Totally.

Jameela: I have to wait till I can come back with a good answer. And I think that that’s an integrity thing that we just need to kind of keep an eye on, but I really appreciate the adjacent to parenting skills, because I think it is important. I don’t think it’s patronizing at all. I think it is really important. And especially the older saying in the world, which is [01:02:00] just treat others as you would wish to be taught yourself.

Then last but not least, as we end this lovely conversation, what is the advice you have out there for people who are resonating with what you’re saying, who don’t really know where to turn because it’s not a very healthy climate right now for those who do wish to dissent from the cult like behavior of certain pockets of the internet. What’s your advice for them? Where do they go now?

Clementine: So when we are dishonest about who we are and what we believe in order to protect ourselves, what ends up happening is we just surround ourselves with people that we don’t agree with. And so, like, if you think you’re keeping yourself safe by never talking about the fact that you disagree with cancel culture, what’s happening is, is that you are probably surrounded by a lot of people who do agree with cancel culture, and when and if you ever accidentally step out of line, say something that they don’t agree with, you’re going to lose everything [01:03:00] because your entire life is inside that culture.

Jameela: And dependent upon. Yeah.

Clementine: Yeah. So I’m kind of just at the school of thought that it is actually better to pre cancel yourself. And I know that might sound a little dramatic, but it’s like, if you could just be honest about what you really think and the people in your life freak out at you and can’t handle it, then those people are not your real friends to begin with, because actually true friends can handle disagreement within their relationships, can have like civil conversations where they maybe don’t hold all the same views, but they’re not going to threaten you or cut you out just because you’ve disagreed on something, right? And so the more that you can find the courage to start to be more honest about what you really think or questions that you have, you know, you may lose people if you start to do that. And I’m going to be honest with you, like you might lose people.

Jameela: Yeah, but you never really had those people to begin with.

Clementine: Exactly. It will probably be a painful and and like kind of like a transition period like depending on how deep you are inside this culture that if you start to be honest, you probably are going to lose, you’re going to lose people. You’re probably, you might have people talking shit about you, but in the end, [01:04:00] you’re also going to find people, right? Because there’s lots of other people who are waiting for leaders in this regard, who are also scared, who are waiting for somebody to say it first. And if you’re brave enough to do that, the people around you who are like, oh, my God, thank you. Like, I also hate this. I don’t feel in alignment with my integrity. I don’t want to be canceling people. I want to be able to disagree with my friends and not have it be the end of the world. Like, I want to be able to think more deeply about things. I want to be able to ask questions. Those people are going to find you. And then you’re going to be able to build relationships and connections that are way more sturdy and way more sincere where there is room to breathe. There is room for disagreement. There is room for human error. There is room for conflict without it being, you know, looking for the bad guy and finding someone to blame. And so it is scary, but it is ultimately super fucking fulfilling. I love my life a million times more. I would not go back. You know, I do not miss my pre canceled life because back then I was living in fear and I was constantly so worried all the time and I was censoring myself and I wasn’t being honest. Now I live in integrity. I live in honesty and I have [01:05:00] relationships that are sturdy and that are like, we don’t always agree with each other all the time about everything, but we love each other and we have each other’s backs and we can have healthy and constructive disagreement without. destroying anyone’s life.

And the other piece that I will just add is boundaries, especially on the internet. Boundaries are so important. And part of the way that cancel culture works is that people think that they have the right to behave in entirely inappropriate ways in your comment section. And I simply do not tolerate this. And so, the way that I think about it is, I’m like, would I tolerate it if somebody talked to me like this in real life? If somebody just walked onto my front lawn and started saying this shit to me, would I tolerate that? No, I would be like, this is absolutely inappropriate and super fucking weird that you’re talking to me like this. So, same thing. I have basic standards for how I accept being talked to. And if people are going to talk to me in a way that is dehumanizing, threatening, cruel, disrespectful, any of those things, I simply do not tolerate it. And there’s a [01:06:00] lot of people who are really mad about that because they don’t think that we have the right to set those boundaries, like, you know, because it’s silencing others or something.

Jameela: They say you’re censoring them. Yeah, yeah.

Clementine: But guess what? I’m not censoring them because they’re still talking shit about me. They’re just not doing it in my comment section. Like, censoring them would be what they’re doing. Like, I’m not going around being like, everybody deplatform them and no one let them speak. Like, get their, get their ideas pulled from everything on the internet. No, I’m simply just having a boundary about my own space on the internet, which is my comment section. And so I don’t engage with that. And if people behave in a way that is, um, overtly like threatening or dehumanizing or like very disrespectful to me one time, I block them. I just block them right away. And this is something that people say about me all the time. They’re like Clementine Morrigan is out here blocking people. And I’m like, yes, I am. It’s called having boundaries. And I have boundaries in my real life. Whereas if people were treating me like that in my real life, I wouldn’t be their friend because I would be like, the way you’re treating me is entirely disrespectful. Similarly, on the [01:07:00] internet, if someone is going to act that way towards me, I don’t have to put up with it and I don’t have to engage with it. And so that does not mean that I do not take feedback or critique in my relationships, in the people that I have in my life, they can give me feedback and critique in a respectful way, and I can think about it. I am also capable and take seriously my responsibility of like, listening widely, reading widely, you know, exposing myself to a variety of perspectives and opinions. I think we should all do that, you know? I don’t think any of us should be living in an echo chamber. I do that. But that does not mean that I need to put up with people just behaving in totally disrespectful ways on the internet. And I think all of us really could do better in terms of our internet boundaries because we put up with shit online that we would not put up with in real life.

Jameela: Ever.

Clementine: And no, it’s totally disrespectful. And also it’s condescending to the person doing it too, because it’s like, I actually think better of you than this. Like I hold you to a higher standard than this. I do not accept you behaving this way. It’s not appropriate. So like, [01:08:00] I’m not going to tolerate it. And in the similar way where it’s like, you know, like I can, if I have a friend who’s just like acting like that every time we hang out, I’m going to be like, bud, like, it’s not good for you and it’s not good for me. And so I’m not going to try to destroy your life about it, but I am going to set a boundary, you know?

Jameela: Yeah. Well, maybe one of the places they can go is to your comment section, because it sounds like quite a safe space and they can find other like minded people. I know that people have felt tremendously relieved by your outlook, even when they don’t agree with you. And I think what’s great is that you make space for people to disagree with you. As I’ve said many times this podcast, it is the foundation of our democracy. We have to be able to disagree. That’s how all great ideas happen is via everyone being challenged. I agree with you. I feel happier and calmer and more authentic than I’ve ever felt in the last few years since I’ve started to step away from this way of being. And since I’ve taken myself out of the shackles, or probably now I’ve been kicked out of the shackles of perfection, but by people online and they’ve said you are not perfect therefore you are worth nothing and it feels [01:09:00] so much easier now because it feels like anyone who’s still with me anyone who’s still listening to this podcast or following me online or anyone who’s still texting me and is my friend like they love me for me. They are able to separate the bullshit from what is real. They’re able to hold me accountable. And most importantly, they’re able to give me the benefit of the doubt. And the benefit of the doubt is something that we especially do not manage to reserve for women or for minorities, and it’s something we need more of. And I think that’s ultimately what I’m advocating for.

Clementine: Not to be hilarious, but to quote Taylor Swift, “My reputation’s never been worse, so you must like me for me.”

Jameela: What a perfect way to end. Thank you so much.

Clementine: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Jameela: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimmie Gregory, and Amelia Chappelow. It is edited by Andrew Carson and the beautiful music that you are hearing [01:10:00] now is made by my boyfriend James Blake, and if you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. It’s such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording sharing what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners.

Listener: I weigh my resilience and resourcefulness. I weigh the ability to get through whatever shit life gives me. I weigh the power to keep going. I weigh being myself.