EP. 217 — From The Office to The Outlaws with Stephen Merchant

Jameela [00:00:09] Stephen Merchant. National treasure. How are you? Welcome to I Weigh.

Stephen [00:00:13] I have been angling to be called a national treasure for many years, so I appreciate that enormously.

Jameela [00:00:18] Haha!

Stephen [00:00:18] You’ve you’ve won me over as your as your guest straightaway.

Jameela [00:00:21] Have you have I just broken your national treasure virginity?

Stephen [00:00:24] I think Gaby Roslin, broadcaster, once said I was a national treasure as well. But but I need to get a groundswell, you know.

Jameela [00:00:30] Right right right. Yeah.

Stephen [00:00:31] It’s the same as if you’re trying to get a knighthood. You need you need a lot of people to keep saying it.

Jameela [00:00:35] 100%. Yeah.

Stephen [00:00:36] I I want to get national treasure, and I want to make sure I’m in at least the TV BAFTA, In Memoriam film when I pass away.

Jameela [00:00:45] Yes.

Stephen [00:00:45] I want to make sure, and I don’t want it to just be a photo. I think there needs to be a clip.

Jameela [00:00:49] Right.

Stephen [00:00:49] And then, you know you’ve made it.

Jameela [00:00:50] Do you, was it a montage, do you have a clip that you have secretly in mind that you hope that they use for your In Memoriam?

Stephen [00:00:57] Oh, I don’t I mean, I think I’d like it to be some kind of dramatic acting masterpiece I’ve yet to film, but I suspect it will be me as the oak monster in the British version of The Office.

Jameela [00:01:14] Hahaha!

Stephen [00:01:14] But I’m fine with that.

Jameela [00:01:16] Great. Great. I’m glad. I’m glad. I’ll I’ll if I should surpass you, which given how clumsy I am, I don’t think I will. I think you will survive us all. But I’ll make sure it happens, alright? You’ve got my

Stephen [00:01:26] Please do.

Jameela [00:01:27] You’ve got my promise. How have you been? I haven’t seen you in ages.

Stephen [00:01:31] I’m alright, I think. Yes. I mean, I’m not sure I’ve seen you since Covid, right? Which.

Jameela [00:01:37] Yeah.

Stephen [00:01:37] Threw the world into, yeah, threw the world into a tailspin, so, but I’m alright. I, yeah, I’m I’m I’m generally okay. Do you know what I mean? I’m quite an even keeled person.

Stephen [00:01:50] Yeah.

Jameela [00:01:50] I don’t have huge emotional lows, and neither do I have great emotional highs.

Jameela [00:01:55] Haha!

Stephen [00:01:56] So, you know, even if you were, even if I was to go to the one of those awards and win an award, I’d be like, “Yeah. This is, yeah, this is nice. Thanks.” But I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t be giddy.

Jameela [00:02:07] Right. When you when you win awards and you’ve won many, what what do you feel? What is going through your head in that moment?

Stephen [00:02:14] Well, certainly I’m so glad that I’ve won because sitting through an awards ceremony when you don’t win is very dull. And I’ve just rented this tux, now I’m getting my money’s worth. So, yes, there’s definitely obviously, there’s a there’s a buzz, there’s a validation, there’s a pat on the back. But I think some people, it becomes overwhelming for them. There’s tears.

Jameela [00:02:40] Right.

Stephen [00:02:40] There’s there’s there’s gushing.

Jameela [00:02:42] But that’s fight or flight I think.

Stephen [00:02:44] Is that what it is? Do you think so?

Jameela [00:02:46] I think it’s like so overwhelming that they’re stressed, and I think it comes out in like a big cortisol reaction. I don’t think

Stephen [00:02:54] You might be right, yeah.

Jameela [00:02:54] And I think that then, but then it makes me feel bad about myself when they have a really big emotional reaction that I’m just sort of more like, “Oh, this is so nice, thank you so much.” And I don’t cry and I don’t shake. And then I feel like a sociopath.

Stephen [00:03:09] I know what you mean, but I wonder if we share something, which is that we have a slightly I’m not going to say a cynical approach, but we can see the perhaps the gentle absurdity of life maybe.

Jameela [00:03:22] Yes.

Stephen [00:03:22] And I think consequently, when you’re always slightly watching things through that lens, it can rob things of certain of a, of a level of sincerity or sort of pure emotion, because I’m slightly looking at it, thinking of the, the comic angle or the absurd angle or like I remember we when we, we won a Golden Globe and we’d never been to the Golden Globes and we went there for the British version of The Office. And the BBC had said, “You’re not going to win a Golden Globe.” It’s never going to happen, so just go enjoy the day. So we get a limo. First time I’ve been in a limo. Can’t believe it, so excited. There’s free water, Jameela. It’s it’s unbelievable. And, I, we get there and we see the Desperate Housewives are in the limo before us that dates it. They’re getting out of the limo, and they were there, and we see Tom cruise, and there’s people, and Nicolas Cage. It’s unbelievable. And we’re sat at a table right at the back. And the award, we win the award, no one’s expecting it. And the announcer says, he has no idea who me and Ricky Gervais are, and he just took a guess at our names, and he just thought maybe we were European. And he said, coming to the stage, Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant. And just took a guess. And we get up on the stage, and I remember looking out and seeing Clint Eastwood in the audience turn to the person next to him and clearly say, “Who the fuck are they?” And that’s the stuff I remember. That’s what I remember, you know? Rather than the excitement of winning, I just remember the extra sensory overload of this, of the crazy stimulus of all the the madness of it, the strangeness of it, you know, rather than that. Yeah, we totally deserve this, and now I’m just going to give in to the emotion.

Jameela [00:05:00] It almost feels like your your brain works in a comedy slow mo, where you’re being able to take in all of these different things because all of your writing, all of your work, even your performance, is all based on such obvious observational work. Right?

Stephen [00:05:14] Yes.

Jameela [00:05:14] You are you clearly study people, you study emotions. And and I think it’s why you’re very good at writing friendship. I think it’s why you’re very good at writing romance and arguments. I think a lot of it comes from the fact that you are you are scanning situations for the humanity and lolz.

Stephen [00:05:33] And I think I appreciate those compliments and I think that’s right. But I also feel like perhaps, I mean, I feel like if I’m honest, I’ve been in situations where I was perhaps in a breakup and literally had, in during the moment of the breakup or during some kind of conversation, like my part of my brain thinking, I must remember that. Or that seems very truthful.

Stephen [00:05:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephen [00:05:53] Or that’s an authentic emotion in that moment. Or that’s a good line.

Jameela [00:05:57] It’s hard to be present when you’re a vampire.

Stephen [00:06:00] Yes.

Jameela [00:06:00] Yeah.

Stephen [00:06:00] That’s right. When you’re leeching off of the world. Yeah.

Jameela [00:06:02] You’re an emotional vampire, yeah. Hahaha! I so okay wait, so you were saying you never really experienced high highs? Do you mean never, like, do you know, you don’t ever feel the high highs?

Stephen [00:06:14] I think I feel like it’s moderated, so I definitely I definitely appreciate a pat on the back and a nice compliment. And, you know, all the things people like, you know, the I like affection and I like and I feel, you know, I get upset and all those things. I don’t mean that I’m sort of cold sociopath, as you suggested, but I

Jameela [00:06:33] No, haha.

Stephen [00:06:33] I guess what I mean is that I don’t it doesn’t, I never feel overwhelmed in either direction. I’m never

Jameela [00:06:41] Same.

Stephen [00:06:41] I never wake up thinking I can’t face the day and that life is bleak. And equally, I never feel like I’m sort of, you know, I’m on drugs because of the buzz of whatever I’ve done that day, whether it’s winning an award or, you know, abseiling or whatever. You know what a typical week for me is. So I don’t know if that’s if that’s normal or maybe that is maybe that’s the common default position for most people.

Jameela [00:07:04] I think, I think I think I think everything’s kind of normal. There’s so many of us and so many of us must be having shared experiences that I think it is totally normal. I feel similarly to you, where I’m a relatively tepid person, you know, as in, like I would say, not tepid person, but I have a tepid just sort of I’m mostly almost always at lukewarm.

Stephen [00:07:23] Hahaha!

Jameela [00:07:23] It’s very hard to tip for me out of lukewarm into burning hot or ice cold.

Stephen [00:07:27] Yes.

Jameela [00:07:28] And as you can imagine, it makes me a very exciting lover, you know, and, and colleague, but it just like, that’s, I’m I’m in a relatively even keel. Where I struggle is, when life becomes, I can get overwhelmed very easy. I can get anxious very easily. Things making me anxious is the thing that can tip my scale. Where then I I think I’ve been misdiagnosed sometimes with depression, cause I’ve never experienced the like “I can’t state this, I can’t get out of bed today.” I’ve never had a kind of sad feeling. I I I mine manifests in a sort of numb, but I think I can get I can get quite stressed out sometimes. But I know what you mean. And I think that, it was funny when we were talking in our pre-interview, you were telling, you I was just a bit like, so how is, you know, it’s a mental health podcast. And you were like, yeah, I don’t really have don’t really have a lot to say about the mental health discussion. And I think that that’s lovely and fine.

Stephen [00:08:25] Well, I don’t I don’t mean to sound dismissive in that, I think

Jameela [00:08:28] Yeah. It didn’t come across that way.

Stephen [00:08:31] I definitely have friends and relatives who’ve had mental health issues, which, they now feel more free to speak about, which I think is brilliant, and that is a huge improvement socially, that the stigma is falling away and people are more open about talking about that. And I think that is invaluable. And I think that is wonderful.

Jameela [00:08:50] Thank you for that disclaimer.

Stephen [00:08:52] Well, it’s a conversation I don’t feel I can engage in in the same way because

Jameela [00:08:56] Yeah.

Stephen [00:08:56] I don’t feel that I, I think I would be speaking with no real information. And I suppose what’s hard for me, as someone who perhaps feels I don’t struggle in that way, is it it’s sometimes hard for me to distinguish between what is a real mental health difficulty and what is just life throwing some shit at you that you have to cope with and battle through and that I, I do feel like there are times where people have said to me, “Oh, I can’t do that because it’s bad for my mental health.” And I think, “Well, is it bad for your mental health or is it just you don’t want to do it or it’s stressful or it’s difficult?” And I

Jameela [00:09:31] It’s hard, yeah.

Stephen [00:09:31] That’s hard for me to distinguish between. And I’m sure it is for, for people who are going through it themselves, so but I’m certainly not dismissive of it because I know from just, you know, people I know and friends and family who’ve experienced that, it’s a very real thing.

Jameela [00:09:45] Yeah, and it didn’t come across as dismissive at all. It was actually it was A) I was very happy to hear it, because I would never want you to have any kind of suffering. But B) I also think that that’s an interesting discussion because as from what you’re saying, like there is a sort of blueprint of resilience, which I think I’m from a similar generation of resilience being a part of, almost too far, you know, in one direction.

Stephen [00:10:11] Yes.

Jameela [00:10:11] Especially for, I think, all parents, where it’s you don’t let anything out and you don’t, you don’t really engage with any of your emotions or anyone else’s emotions either, but I do think that resilience to something that has become that has become stigmatized. And so, yes, resilience in a way, in a way, and I mean that, you know, like half tongue in cheek, but also, stigmatized only and that then you’re made to feel like you’re never looking at the full issue. And, and I think that what we’ve been trying to talk about on this podcast for the last couple of months is that it is so important to be able to understand your brain and acknowledge what you’ve been through, but it’s also so vital to give yourself the agency to be able to work through it. And sometimes feeling like a victim of something for too long can end up becoming more destructive.

Stephen [00:11:02] Yes.

Jameela [00:11:03] And that feels scary to say even because we are in a culture that is just like, it doesn’t necessarily encourage you to drown, but it does encourage you to, it doesn’t encourage you necessarily to develop the tools to be able to keep swimming through it, if that makes sense.

Stephen [00:11:18] Absolutely, absolutely. But I think, yes, like you were saying, I think the kind of keep calm and carry on approach is one that I’ve embraced over, and I’ve never, for instance, done therapy. And although I suspect I probably should, like anybody, probably should, it probably seems very constructive. I think there is part of me that is worried about if I open that door, what’s in there.

Jameela [00:11:41] Hahaha!

Stephen [00:11:42] And so I think I, I’m probably I’m a coward in that sense. And because I don’t feel on a day to day level like I need to open that door just to get through the day, I’ve kept it closed. But that is not to say that I won’t, there won’t come a time where it’s necessary. And of course, like everybody, I get very stressed. And I can feel, as you were saying earlier, overwhelmed. But I think I normally when I’m in those moments, I can sort of stop myself and go, okay, let’s there’s a way through this, let’s figure out what that is and be sort of systematic, okay? We can’t tackle all these problems at once, so let’s do them one at a time. Let’s prioritize them. Let’s call on friends and family. Let’s speak about it. Let’s say I’m struggling here. What can I do? And I feel like I’m able to call on people and techniques to manage my way through it, which I know for some is much harder. And for whatever reason, they do feel a lot more swamped in those moments.

Jameela [00:12:36] Totally, totally. I think that’s kind of what I wanted to talk to you about, is how you were able to develop a resilient mindset like you were, it’s it, you do not work in a a peaceful field in the West Country. You are in a stressful industry that is full of a lot of rejection and ego hits and intense people and intense relationships and dynamics. How how did you get to the point where you learned to even slow everything down in the moment of overwhelm?

Stephen [00:13:11] Well, the first thing I realized is that, I was lucky that the office became successful when I was still quite young in my 20s, and what I realized was very quickly that I had been shooting to try and write a sitcom that would be successful. That was one of my ambitions, it was it’s my sort of chief ambition from being very young. And I achieved that quite young. And what I realized was no one opens the door and goes, “Hey, come on through to to life that’s better and easier, and everything’s figured out.” And that you realize that ambition doesn’t solve anything, really. If you’re feeling insecure or whatever your issues are, nothing is solved by that moment. So that was, in a weird way, a strange relief, because along with that, you realized all these people you admire and what and who perhaps you think are at the top of the tree in all kinds of ways, they don’t have it figured out either. It hasn’t solved their lives. They’re as weird and neurotic and dangerous and strange and lovely and awful, as you’d imagine. And there’s a real mixed bag and that everybody’s sort of guessing, and they’re just trying to figure it out. And some people present a better front and make you think they’ve got it all together. But really, once you start to sort of, you know, you can realize fairly quickly that, “Oh, that person’s got daddy issues or that person’s, you know, got a black hole of, of need of validation they’re never going to fill or whatever it is.” And you just realize, oh, everybody’s got their thing, and so you stop judging yourself against others. I think when, the sooner you embrace that, the sooner you know everybody’s guessing and you’re willing to welcome it. It’s a great relief.

Jameela [00:14:51] Yeah.

Stephen [00:14:51] And it helps me. It helps me. It means that even in dealing with other people who are perhaps more well known or wealthy or more important or more powerful, I still know there’s an Achilles heel in there somewhere, and I’m not here to exploit it. I just know that person is, they’re just trying to get through their day as much as anybody else. And for some reason it gives a great solace. And I don’t mean because I don’t mean to say, “Oh, everybody’s you know, I’m better than everyone.” I just mean it, it levels the playing field when you accept that.

Jameela [00:15:18] It’s very clear that you think you’re better than everyone. You always have.

Stephen [00:15:20] I definitely do. But no, and I think that’s a it’s a real, I mean look at look at Donald Trump. He’s the perfect example of a man who could not be more successful, and he has a black hole in the core of him that will never be filled. And it’s probably daddy issues and all his things.

Jameela [00:15:37] It’s definitely a daddy issue.

Stephen [00:15:37] It’s a daddy issue. And he can’t, and he’s a narcissist.

Jameela [00:15:40] Because his father, his father, was much more successful than him. As in like his father was a success. He kept on going bankrupt with his dad’s money. He was made to feel like he wasn’t going to amount to anything. And so that’s why he has to be the entire leader and dictator of the world now because of his fucking dad.

Stephen [00:15:55] Now, leaving aside your political views, which I can’t even pick up what yours are, your opinions are about his politics but assuming

Jameela [00:16:01] I pay everyone, so yeah.

Stephen [00:16:03] But my point being that whether you like him or not, as a politician, whether you’re on the right or the left, as a man, he could not be higher up in terms of success and power. And there is an emptiness that will never be filled. And so,

Jameela [00:16:15] Yes.

Stephen [00:16:15] At that point you’re like, yeah, okay, well then that tells me something. It tells me that you’re not going to get validation or happiness or solace or whatever you need from these external factors.

Jameela [00:16:28] So where do you get your happiness?

Stephen [00:16:29] I think you get it from maintaining friendships and relationships with your loved ones and the people you’re in relationships with and, taking pleasure, in my case, from the work I do. I love the work itself, and however stressful it gets and however overwhelmed I do feel at times, I still go back to the fact that I don’t want to be doing anything else. And I’m very privileged in that sense, and I know that’s the case. I know not everyone’s in that situation, but and so it’s trying to construct a life where you try and exclude the things which make you unhappy, whether that’s people that you don’t chime with or saying yes to things you don’t want to do or whatever it might be. And without being selfish, just trying to construct your sort of your little part of the planet that gives you more pleasure than it does pain.

Jameela [00:17:21] And when it comes to the problem solving of that moment of overwhelm, I’m just I’m interested because I think it’s like you almost have a kind of mini system that I think could be maybe helpful for people, because we’re not really given very many tools anymore. We’re given the opportunity to speak about it and to own it, but there’s little discussion of actual like you got obviously like Huberman telling you to take certain deep breaths, etc. and that’s fine.

Stephen [00:17:47] Right.

Jameela [00:17:48] But but I, I’m interested in the logic of the approach that you take. And so could you just briefly break it down to me of like that moment, if things are stressful?

Stephen [00:17:57] There’s only so many hours in the day, right?

Jameela [00:17:58] Yeah.

Stephen [00:17:58] So you can, now I’m very privileged because I don’t have a lot of the stresses which a lot of people have. I don’t have kids, I don’t have money concerns, and I know they can be overwhelming. And so it’s hard for me to pontificate about that, but

Jameela [00:18:11] Right.

Stephen [00:18:12] From a from a professional capacity, you know sometimes

Jameela [00:18:15] Is your answer, you get into your Jacuzzi in your mansion

Stephen [00:18:18] No no no.

Jameela [00:18:19] No no no no, I know, I’m joking.

Stephen [00:18:21] No, I have, I have my, I just have my butler and assistant solve it.

Jameela [00:18:23] And I tell my assistant do it. Yeah. Hahaha!

Stephen [00:18:27] No, no. Well, I suppose I mean, is that I just, I suppose I try to, I think to myself, we can’t solve all these issues at once. So whether it’s a sort of mental list or a physical list, it’s like, what do we need to tackle and how, and what in what order.

Jameela [00:18:43] And what can I control? What can I actually control?

Stephen [00:18:45] And what can I control and who can I call on, right? And so, you know, there are so many people that are willing to help and, and there are services that will offer help in those extreme extents. But in a professional capacity, there are people around who you can call on. And as long as you, and I think when you can get your ego out of the way, and I know that sometimes the male ego traditionally has been associated with, “I need to take it on myself, and I don’t want to be seen to ask for help.” I’m more than happy to ask for help.

Jameela [00:19:11] Have you always been that way?

Stephen [00:19:13] I think so I don’t have an ego in that sense. I don’t need everybody to think I’ve done everything and I’ve, despite the fact I like to wear many hats professionally, I’m more than happy to share credit. And so I yeah, I’ve never been concerned about asking for help. And and I’ve also equally saying when I’ve screwed up and, and that that was my fault. And I take responsibility for that and I apologize. And again, I’ve not always done that. You know, I’ve not always realized I needed to apologize, which has been a failing of mine. I’ve not always realized when I’ve upset someone, but generally when I have or if they’ve told me, I think they’re trying to own those problems. You know, that idea of sort of “Don’t go to sleep on an argument” I think it’s an amazing rule of thumb, even with friends as much with family.

Jameela [00:19:53] As I know but James goes mad. He just is like, I’m fucking. He’s got like some sort of disorder that another friend of mine has where as soon as he get stressed, like like, you know, those goats that sort of get stressed and then get sort of paralyzed and fall asleep immediately. He’s a bit like that where the second anything we enter into any kind of a conflict, I can see his eyes literally start sort of swelling and closing, as if he’s having an allergic reaction to any kind of tension.

Stephen [00:20:22] Well, I’ll tell you what’s interesting there. You’ve but you’ve hit on something which where I do struggle, which is, as you probably can hear from the way I’m speaking, I feel I’m quite a rational person.

Jameela [00:20:31] Yeah.

Stephen [00:20:32] And what I struggle with is a situation where I feel the other person is being irrational.

Jameela [00:20:37] You are me. Everything you’ve said I identify with.

Stephen [00:20:40] Yeah.

Jameela [00:20:41] And I can’t leave it if I feel as though we haven’t gotten to the logical rational conclusion.

Stephen [00:20:45] That’s right. There has to be answer to this.

Jameela [00:20:47] Conclusion, yes. Yeah.

Stephen [00:20:48] And and I think sometimes people who don’t always whose brains don’t work that way, find you being cold or icy or that you’re sort of you’re detached from it in some way, or you’re not feeling the emotion of it and that that frustrates them or just furthers the issue. And if we can just stop and identify where the root cause is and what’s what are we really talking about here? Okay. It’s not this pair of shoes, is it? It’s something else.

Jameela [00:21:13] Yeah.

Stephen [00:21:13] It’s because your daddy didn’t love you enough. That’s probably whatever it is.

Jameela [00:21:16] Hahaha! Oh my God, that’s so offensive.

Stephen [00:21:17] If you can get to there, if we can get to there, then we can, we can solve this problem.

Jameela [00:21:23] I’ve I’ve been called Tin Man by three separate lovers.

Stephen [00:21:27] There you go.

Jameela [00:21:28] So there you go. I, I so I very much say no because I’m like a sort of a rat. I will just chew through you until we get the honest answer out of what’s really going on. And it turns into a sort of like, Vietnam level sleep torture session, where I’m like, “No, but just explain.” And I’m not shouting, and I don’t raise my voice and I’m not an aggressive person, so I’m just like, “I just don’t understand. You have to explain it to me.”

Stephen [00:21:50] Yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:21:50] I was like, “Explain the logic of it.” Yeah. I’m amazed he still here, to be honest. But we don’t fight very often, thankfully, because we are generally quite peaceful, logical people. But I totally, totally identify with you, and I feel very similarly about my my career. I don’t I’ve never felt competitive with anyone. I’ve never felt like there are a finite amount of lanes.

Stephen [00:22:11] Right.

Jameela [00:22:11] I find that so arbitrary and ridiculous. Given how much Hollywood has grown from it’s from its beginning to just being 1 or 2 films a year to now, thousands of films on all these streamers. It’s like we keep learning that there are more and more avenues for art, so why try to gatekeep any of these avenues and also with sharing the credit also means sharing the blame, which I love to do.

Stephen [00:22:33] Sure, absolutely.

Jameela [00:22:35] It’s lovely to not have to take the full brunt of the rejection I think.

Stephen [00:22:39] I do feel though as I’m getting older.

Jameela [00:22:43] Mhm.

Stephen [00:22:43] I never used to have an issue with getting older. It was never really something that preyed on my mind. And now is the first time I’ve started to feel that a little bit more. And I think what I mean by that is I, I’m aware of being older and, and not being as plugged into things as I was kind of culturally and socially and, and I think there are fields, there’s so many things I’d still like to do creatively and professionally. And I and I think there’s part of me that is if I have a worry at all, it’s feeling like I just get out of touch. And those and the opportunity to carry on doing the thing I love drifts away or is taken away or and that is something, you know, maybe I because I’ve put so much personal value in the job I do because I just love it. I feel like the fear of it being taken away, and then what would I replace it with I think is a concern I’m having as I get older.

Jameela [00:23:39] Well, I think one of the reasons I don’t fear that for you and as your agent, it’s just important for me to let you know that, is that I, you you focus on the human condition more so than almost any other comedy writer I’ve ever seen. And so much of the love stories in things like The Office, etc., like so much of that came, you know, largely from you and, and, and I think that you’re that the way that you write interpersonal dynamics is just so human. And there’s something very timeless about writing about humanity. That’s always at the core of everything that I’ve seen, and forgive me if I’ve read you wrong, but that fundamental humanity is where it seems to be that you find the real, like the gem. That’s the diamond that you’re able to to find the funny out of what can sometimes be either just frivolous, but sometimes very, very moving. And so I don’t think that those things will ever change or go away. I think that those are kind of universal, universal themes. There’s moments of self-deprecation or rejection or longing for something, longing for someone, and also, you write a lot about loneliness. You know, you write a lot about outcasts. You’re very, very good. Your show is called Outlaws. And by the way, you’re clearly not out of touch because you’ve now done multiple seasons. You have a new one coming out now. And and in a second I want to talk about that, but there is a theme of you writing for the sort of underdog and for the people that Hollywood sometimes forgets.

Stephen [00:25:08] Well, again, I very appreciate your, your kind words, and, I feel that is the case. And I’ve always been interested in what you might term the ordinary. And I’ve always felt that there’s as much, there are as many stories to tell from the people in the local pub than there are the, you know, needing aliens or or, you know, fantasy worlds that there’s this enough kind of humanity and interesting stuff to tell about regular people. One thing I have tried to do, you know, as I’ve gone on, is work with new collaborators in order and younger people as well to try and make sure that I’m still, people are still there to sort of tell me how things are shifting because inevitably, not just with getting older, but being successful, you know, you can you know, you can live in a bit more of a bubble. And so trying to sort of stay in touch through other writers, let’s face it, leech off other younger writers.

Jameela [00:25:59] I was about to say, we’re back at vampire. Haha!

Stephen [00:26:01] Haha! Exactly. No, but if you share, if you share a small portion of the money, then I think it’s fine.

Jameela [00:26:07] Yeah. Hahaha! I think I think that’s the only way to survive is to make sure run. And also you, by the way, a lot younger than Ricky, you know, when you guys wrote The Office, so you were that, you were that for someone else that helped him stay in touch with that kind of inter-generational, cross-generational humor that then was able to reach as many young people as it did people who were older. And so I think that that’s I think that’s a lesson well learned. And I think it also, you know, I think that in a world where hyper individualism has become more extreme than I’ve ever known it, and everyone doing their own start up and, and I understand why everyone wants to be their own boss. No one wants to have to answer to anyone. But you know, it’s like everyone wants to be an entrepreneur. Everyone wants to be like, we are encouraged to be at the forefront of things, to take the credit of things. I think the social media of it all has, has, has, has somewhat not bastardized community, but it’s warped it somewhat. And so I always love anyone who wants to talk about the the vitality of collaborating.

Stephen [00:27:10] Yeah.

Jameela [00:27:10] Because I think it is such, it’s the key to all progress in every area, be it art or politics or anything.

Stephen [00:27:17] Well, I think that’s that also expands to the fact that particularly in this profession, and I suspect in any profession, you need to put the hours in, you know, and, and sort of taking time, a feeling like you’re owed time off or time away and that everyone’s going to just sort of wait for you while you take a, you know, three week holiday. Unfortunately, the nature of this job and others is that it just keeps moving forward, you know that the train is on the tracks. And that’s a that’s a danger because, you know, you can’t I, I definitely feel like I was guilty early on in my career of missing important things, people’s weddings and parties and birthdays and social events that are important about keeping friendships alive and, you know, all kinds of things and sort of forsaking that for the career thing that I felt needed to be done in that moment. And I think it that’s a hard thing to negotiate, you know, is being as dynamic and as energetic and proactive as you can and sort of carving out a bit of space for real life as well. And that’s, I think, a very tough balance. And it does feel like people are discussing that more, but I think

Jameela [00:28:23] Yeah, I mean, I’ve literally been doing that for the last two years, just pulling back so that I don’t miss those pivotal moments because now everyone’s having babies. Thankfully, nobody wanted to marry any of my friends up until recently because we’re all just, I mean, no one’s going to marry me like it’s so we’re all just, you know, we’re all weirdos, but, now this everyone’s seeming to settle down a bit, and I’m like, “Oh, God, I’m missing, I’m missing these massive moments that I’ll never have the chance to see again.”

Stephen [00:28:50] Yeah.

Jameela [00:28:50] And I’ve started to kind of pull back quite a lot in the last few years so that I don’t, cause similarly to you in my 20s, it’s just the fear mongering is like, “You’ve got to go. You’re only going to be hot for a minute. You’ve got to go. You got to keep moving, never stop, never take a holiday.”

Stephen [00:29:02] But I think the problem is there’s a sort of truth to that as well, like it’s a very difficult balance to, to get right.

Jameela [00:29:07] Yeah. The two things can be true at the same time, but then it comes down to what is your measure of success? Is the success in the in social kind of community, or is the success more in the kind of not just the metric of like, you know, having a hit show, but also getting to do what you love for the rest of your life because that’s what’s in jeopardy for you.

Stephen [00:29:28] That’s right, that’s right. The safest thing to do is work tirelessly till you’ve got enough money that you can buy friends.

Jameela [00:29:34] Yeah, haha!

Stephen [00:29:35] Yeah, that seems the safest way to approach it, guys.

Jameela [00:29:43] Haha! Oh, I’m so glad we’re getting some real, like pearls of wisdom.

Stephen [00:29:47] Real wisdom.

Stephen [00:29:57] I’ve got so much to give.

Jameela [00:29:58] You’ve amassed so much to give. When we were talking on the phone, we were talking about the desire specifically to also sometimes focus on outcasts and and to explore loneliness, right? Can you expand on that?

Stephen [00:30:12] Yes. I grew up and was very tall from quite a young age.

Jameela [00:30:20] How young? How tall?

Stephen [00:30:22] You know, early teens I was definitely starting to tower above most people.

Jameela [00:30:27] How tall are you now? Just so people can get a sense?

Stephen [00:30:29] I’m six foot seven.

Jameela [00:30:31] Six foot seven, yeah.

Stephen [00:30:31] I’m six foot seven. Just over two meters. And I’m probably, I mean, I’m trying to think when I was this height, but I was probably I reached something comparable by my sort of mid-teens.

Jameela [00:30:42] Jesus.

Stephen [00:30:43] And so that becomes your sort of hallmark. You, whereas a lot of teenagers perhaps want to stand out from the crowd or they’ll, they can choose a funky haircut or whatever to try and draw attention to themselves and whatever it is, as they’re struggling or sometimes with just withdrawal and just be one of the crowd and just, you know, bury themselves in the in the mob. I kind of was forced to stand out against my will. And someone said to me in an interview once, do you think that you went into comedy to control when people laugh at you?

Jameela [00:31:13] Fuck me.

Stephen [00:31:14] And I thought that was quite a presumptuous question to be honest, but

Jameela [00:31:17] Jesus

Stephen [00:31:17] I have thought about it since they said it, and I thought it was actually probably quite an interesting idea, although I don’t think it’s quite right, because I was always interested in comedy and my dad was funny, and I liked the idea of making people laugh. But I do think there is something about being a performer when you’re already being looked at because you’re very tall to co-opt that

Jameela [00:31:39] To control the narrative, yeah.

Stephen [00:31:40] Yes to to co-opt that into, well, I’m, I’m going to goof around on stage or whatever, and you’re looking at me anyway, so you may I may as well dance for you like a monkey because because I’m choosing to rather than because you’re asking me to. And so, so, so anyway, I think probably what that does is it makes you feel a little bit more out of the ordinary from the from the off. And so it wasn’t that I felt like a huge outsider or bullied or anything like that I just never felt like I was quite part of any group or gang. I sort of floated between them all, if you like. And so I, you know, I found my little tribes along the way, but I think I’ve always been very conscious of never quite being, whether it’s the, the coolest person or the best looking or whatever it is, it’s just never quite feeling 100% like I belonged in any social category or group or whatever. And I’ve always had that there. And so even as I’ve got more comfortable in my own skin and, and successful all the rest of it, there’s always part of me that has that in the back of my brain. And so I think I’m interested in people who feel that way or who are, and exploring those in characters that could, could find themselves on the periphery of life. It’s always intrigued me that. And I’ve got this thing which it’s going to sound like I’m fishing for sympathy, but it’s not that is, I’ve there’s part of me that feels like people would probably be fine if I didn’t show up. Do you know what I mean? It’s not like anyone really needs me at their party. Like I’m fine, I’m not going to ruin the party probably. I’m not like, I’m just, yeah, he’s, it’s fine. Whereas I feel like some people are, you know, they “Oh, he’s the life and soul of the party this guy,” like I’ve never felt I was that person. But I’ve also never felt like people are like, “Oh, I can’t believe this guy showed up.” I’m hoping that’s the case.

Jameela [00:33:32] I’m not just saying this to be nice because I’m not particularly a nice person, but I fundamentally disagree with you and I think you’re stupid for saying it and wrong.

Stephen [00:33:38] Well, that’s sweet of you.

Jameela [00:33:38] And now I want to fight, so I’ll meet you outside.

Stephen [00:33:43] Hahaha!

Jameela [00:33:43] Yeah, that’s a ridiculous thing to say because I think you are hilarious and wonderful, but that’s probably also something that has been a skill harnessed from maybe not feeling like you are the person that people care about showing up at a party.

Stephen [00:33:57] Right.

Jameela [00:33:57] You did once tell me something that made me laugh a lot about a woman eyeing you up in a crowd while you were watching the fireworks. She approaches you and you’re like, “Oh, hello.”

Stephen [00:34:08] Well, I mean, there’s a story that I don’t know if it’s the same story. There was one which I’ve told, which is true where I was in Trafalgar Square at New Year.

Jameela [00:34:17] That’s it.

Stephen [00:34:17] So I was watching New Year, New Year fireworks, and it was approaching midnight, and a woman kind of was looking at me and I was like, hang on, here we go. Game on. This lady’s seen me on the telly. She wants a little piece of Stephen. She’s only human. And she came up and she said, “Are you going to be here for a while?” And I said, “Yes, I am.” And she said, “Great, because my friends and I have arranged to meet back at you.” Because I’m 6 ft 7, I’m normally about a foot and a half taller than most people in any crowd. She said, “Don’t worry. You can still move around. You can move around. We’ll see you wherever you are.” And yeah, by about five past midnight, a bunch of people were just gathered around me, and I would sort of move and they would move with me. And then the girl showed up and they all went off to a party, and I didn’t even get invited.

Jameela [00:35:00] Oh, that’s crazy.

Stephen [00:35:01] I was like, come on.

Jameela [00:35:02] You’ve been Big Ben for these people.

Stephen [00:35:04] I’ve been the meeting point, at least invite the meeting point. Yeah.

Jameela [00:35:07] Oh, that’s that’s a disgrace. That is a disgrace. Yeah. Moments like that, I can imagine.

Stephen [00:35:12] That feeling. Yes. That feeling of whatever that is, I mean, again, probably even as it happened, I was both humiliated and thinking, this is a gold diamond.

Jameela [00:35:20] This is a great story for Jimmy Fallon.

Stephen [00:35:22] Yeah. That’s right. That’s right.

Jameela [00:35:26] Hahaha!

Stephen [00:35:26] Well, I don’t know if I told you that, so I was at this party once thrown by the comedian Sarah Silverman. Which is a good example, again, because it was a party to which I hadn’t been invited, I’d come as a guest of a friend, and Sarah was very welcoming, and she was very sweet.

Jameela [00:35:39] And you did tell me the story, by the way, the first time I met you, and I can’t wait to hear it again.

Stephen [00:35:43] Right. And so there was some pot some pot brownies or pot chocolate, and I am and I do not normally kind of eat or smoke marijuana, but I thought, yeah, I’ll give it a go. It’s LA, it’s fine. That’s what they do here. And I ate it, and within a second I’d gone into like a, I just fell inside my own body and I didn’t know what was going on, and I was just mushed, mashed. And I had a lie down for a bit in the middle of a party. When you’re six foot seven, that’s you’re taking up like two couches. And in the end, I thought I should get a breath of air, and I walked towards the outside area and there was a swimming pool. And I remember thinking, “Don’t fall in the pool. Whatever you do, don’t fall in the pool.” The next thing I know, there were these big, sort of glass French doors, and I just walked straight through them. And I don’t mean they were open. I mean, I hit them and they shattered into an infinite number of pieces. And I now find myself outside the party sort of looking back in, and glass was falling in my memory. I there’s the shape of me, like in a cartoon in the window though I don’t think that was the case. And just the entire party, all these kind of Hollywood

Jameela [00:36:51] Just Jennifer Aniston staring at you, just everyone.

Stephen [00:36:52] Just looking back at you like, who is this giant Frankenstein’s monster crashing through a window? And, but even in that moment, even where I was like, this is humiliating, and I don’t know if I’m injured and I don’t know what you do in this circumstance. There’s still part of me that was thinking, there’s an anecdote here. Just get through the rest of the night. And then there’s an anecdote.

Jameela [00:37:22] I am, I’m exactly the same. I am, I think I think we might be from the same vampire family. There’s the same part of my brain that, you know, when I’m asked as to like why I take so many extreme risks in my career, or I say mad things publicly, or I do things that I’m totally underqualified for like acting. You know, when I first started The Good Place, I’d never done any comedy before, and or the radio or writing. And now I’m currently writing a book about science, and I have no right to do that, because I left school at just before I was 17. And not in like a, “I was a genius who went to Cambridge at ten” sort of way. Like I was at a normal class for my age. And it’s because there’s a part of me that just knows that if it goes wrong, it’s going to make for a great fucking story. I love the the hilarity of disaster, and I’m drawn towards it, even if I am at the center of that disaster, and it was crushingly embarrassing. It’s it it brings me joy.

Stephen [00:38:20] I think, therefore, we share something in common, which is the ability to laugh at yourself and make yourself the butt of the joke.

Jameela [00:38:26] Yeah.

Stephen [00:38:26] And I think some of the people that seem least happy in life are people who’ve created this version of themselves that they need to somehow maintain at all costs. And the pressure to do that must be intense. And we come back to Trump, a man who, though people will say he can be witty and what a droll thing. There is not, he does not laugh at himself ever. He is never the butt of the joke, and maintaining that illusion that you’ve got every answer, that you figured everything out, that you’re the man that’s, or woman, that’s too much pressure to give yourself. It’s crazy. And being able to say, “Yes, I walked through a window at a party” and it was an absurd thing to do. And here’s what happened, and here’s how I felt. And isn’t it vulnerable and laughable and absurd? That’s much easier and more connecting with people than to say, “It never happened. Oh, no, no, no. Well, the problem was that my my drink was spiked. So that’s what happened.”

Jameela [00:39:19] Yep.

Stephen [00:39:20] That’s what a certain kind of person would do and I think and I think again, it comes back to that idea of comedy and that you can sort of be honest in comedy and, and it’s a way it’s a valve. Comedy, stand up comedy, writing comedy just as a fan, it’s a valve that kind of lets out some of that social pressure that we put on ourselves.

Jameela [00:39:38] Yeah.

Stephen [00:39:38] To present ourselves in a certain way, or to give the illusion that we’re people, that perhaps we’re not. And, so, you know, I still get embarrassed in things, but there’s definitely part of me that’s, oh, I’m, I’m having this. I’m using this.

Jameela [00:39:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly the same. Talk to me about Outlaws, like I want to, anyone who hasn’t seen it yet. Maybe there are people, this is a global audience, and so there might be some people who aren’t familiar with the show. Can you break down what the show is about?

Stephen [00:40:05] Well, it actually began life, because my mother used to work for Bristol Community Service, which is where you get people who, you know, who get to do certain crimes that aren’t worthy of prison. They will give them 100 hours of community service picking up, you know, rubbish in the street or painting a building or whatever. And my mother used to supervise these people, and she would tell me about the kinds of people that came through her door. And I was always intrigued by this completely random selection. And she would tell me about, you know, like some American businessman who was in the UK. He’d got caught drunk driving. He came back to do his community service. Some kid who got caught dealing some pot, an old man that used to steal cabbages from people’s gardens and allotments. And she realized because he kept coming back, that he was just lonely. There’s loneliness again. And he just liked, the social aspect of community service.

Jameela [00:40:55] Oh my god.

Stephen [00:40:56] Which I just was so sweet. There was a guy I went to school with that she used to see periodically that would come through. We’ll call him Dave for the sake of the podcast who was Britain’s laziest criminal. He once got caught robbing, well, he once got caught. He’d broken into a home and he was stealing the TV, and the homeowner came out and said, “Dave, what’re you doing?” And he went, “I’m not Dave.” And the homeowner went, “Yeah you are. You live next door.” And I was like, at least go a few roads over before you start breaking and entering. Anyway, he used to come through my mum’s door and she would sit and he’d be like, “How’s Steve doing?” “Oh yeah, he’s in London now. Anyway, you got 120 hours.” And I just thought, what an interesting mix, because you want to find ways in TV of throwing groups of people together, seeing the sparks fly. But at the same time, we were working on it when it was, Trump was on the rise. Brexit in the UK, very divided time. Everyone had sort of retreated to their little bubble, and we found we thought, well, what if we take all the different groups, the young and the old, the people of different ethnicities, people of different political persuasions and threw them all together in this environment, they’re forced literally to work together. Can we suggest the sort of common humanity that connects all these people? And it was sort of, we hoped, quite a sort of a positive human story about people discovering the things which connect us rather than which divide us. And that was the sort of jumping off point and building into that humor and a kind of crime thriller was the sort of, the genesis of it. And now we’re on series three.

Jameela [00:42:25] Yeah. By the way, that that also reminds me that um, I mean that’s a similar I guess philosophy to The Good Place, which you were in and you were wonderful in, which is finding all these people from different outlooks. And I desperately think we need more and more of that art because everything is so divided in a way that sort of stunting interesting conversation. It’s stunting the ability to challenge, and so I really enjoy that. Can you tell me where this season is going?

Stephen [00:42:52] In the previous series, in that first season these 7 or 8 people doing community service get themselves embroiled in a sort of crime conspiracy that’s happening behind the scenes, which they weren’t aware of. In series two, the mistakes they’ve made in the first series come back to haunt them, and now they’re in hock to a crime lord. And these are just regular suburban people, and they have to work together in order to try and solve these problems. And they end up having to deal drugs to pay back this drug dealer, so, you know, imagine you or I are also trying to be, you know, drug kingpins. You know, it’s quite stressful and we’re probably not cut out for it. And in series three like to, in my mind any good crime thriller, someone should show up with a dead body. That’s just how it should be. I want to see a dead body. I want to see how would I cope with a dead body or my character immediately asks Google, “How do you dispose of a dead body?” And so we we wanted that. We wanted sort of how do ordinary people contend with this nightmarish situation whilst also trying to keep their private lives, you know, afloat. And, so yes, it’s really this series is just them is just dialing up the stakes even more for everybody.

Jameela [00:43:59] And it is a great point that that so much more of the most insane stories are happening outside of the spotlight. Everything I read in the papers is so much more intense and scary than those who live in the scrutiny of the public eye. It’s it’s it’s extraordinary the things that you can read, like one of my favorite magazines used to be, I think it was called Pick Me Up or Take a Break or something like that, where it had the most unbelievable stories of just what is happening, especially in the suburbs where there’s the devil makes work for idle hands, or if there’s lots of space or there’s less spectators. I think that’s why we’re so awful to each other on social media because no one can see you. There’s a feeling of isolation that I think can breed extraordinary chaos because you you need something to do.

Stephen [00:44:46] Haha I think that’s probably true, but also the danger as well, isn’t it is that you like as mentioned, you can retreat into your safe zone with people who are like minded and only read the news which reinforces your opinions, and that’s a dangerous place to be. And whatever your politics are, the only way to move forward, it seems to me, is to find common ground. That just makes sense to me. That’s just a logic to that. And whatever you think about the other side, they are people just trying to figure their shit out like you are. And so to demonize them as this evil other is not productive and it’s not constructive and it’s not going to help solve anything or move anything forward. And you have to sort of, you know, like, for instance, my dad and I didn’t agree on Brexit, but I still love my dad. I just won’t get into a debate about Brexit. But you know, I there’s, I just don’t have to agree with his stance on it. But it doesn’t stop me sort of, doesn’t stop me respecting him. It doesn’t stop me loving him.

Jameela [00:45:44] Looking at the whole human.

Stephen [00:45:45] That’s right, that’s right. And I think that is a danger zone we’re in now, particularly in terms of discourse, right? It’s just making this group that you disagree with the other, and they just become demonized and they can’t be engaged with, or tolerated beyond sort of shouting at them. And I just don’t think that seems productive. It comes back to that rational part of the brain again, right, the how do you deal with the argument? Let’s just approach it rationally, rather than letting emotion color everything, which is, not always the most productive way to solve something.

Jameela [00:46:17] The story of the older man who keeps reoffending because he’ll have company at the community center is has had it like a visceral impact on me. I think that that’s that that is just so moving and upsetting, but also you hear of stories like that of people going back to people like, I know people who’ve gotten themselves deliberately sectioned

Stephen [00:46:42] Really?

Jameela [00:46:43] Into mental health facility because it’s not for the recovery as much as for the sense of routine and community and people who, you know, because there’s such a hierarchy and snobbery in society of if you’ve committed a crime, for example, or if you have an addiction or you have a mental health crisis. And so you’re you find this camaraderie in people who have also, quote unquote, fallen from grace. And I think that there’s that’s a really moving story to be told. And I think loneliness is something that I have become obsessed with because I think it is the root cause of so much of our animosity towards each other.

Stephen [00:47:20] Well, I think the other, the other danger there, which you’ve which is, as you mentioned that, is the people that sort of weaponize that for their own gain. And I’m thinking about people like, you know, the Andrew Tate type, right, who can see that there’s a vulnerable, particularly in his instance, a vulnerable young male that he can feed a load of bullshit towards. And he could kind of add this veneer of irony over the top of it that he can sort of and, you know, and but he’s preying on people that or feel vulnerable or don’t haven’t found the coping mechanisms of life to, to help them interact with other people or with people you know, or with romantically or whatever it is. And that’s a very, when you start preying on those people and sort of that’s that’s a dangerous that’s a dangerous road. I and I’m always very suspicious and resentful of those kind of people because I see it as it’s like a con man. It’s the same reason that Trump bothers me is because it feels like a con. It’s not always about his politics. It’s a man, it’s a con man who’s come into town and he’s trying to take you for something, and he’s going to say anything that you want to hear to get what he wants. And there’s a toxicity to that that is so ugly and grim and selfish, and it leaves behind destruction and heartache, and it can lead to misery in all kinds of ways. I just I’ve always that idea of people that kind of prey on others in that way really bothers me. And it makes me, it’s what one, one of the few things that makes me so angry and so riled up because I feel like I can see the tricks. The tricks are just, it’s just bullshit.

Jameela [00:49:02] Yeah.

Stephen [00:49:02] And unfortunately not everyone has yet got the equipment to see the trick and they’re going to be taken in.

Jameela [00:49:08] Well, everything you’ve ever written has been about bringing people together who don’t necessarily belong with one another, all the way back from the office. All of those different characters who are so grating on each other, who are stuck together and have this kind of very subliminal affection for one another, even if they want to fucking strangle each other. And so I appreciate that you are a balancing force where you have almost always whether you were aware of it or not, always pushing for that of of how do we coexist? How do we find a way to fucking coexist without everything being uniform? I have one final question for you. And it’s it’s a very personal question, but being a man is so incredibly difficult and, in many ways, because of the ways in which you are forced to repress emotion and there is very little space in society for men’s vulnerabilities, right? And that can lead to, that for example, by the way, is is what leads to boys being vulnerable in the first place to someone like Andrew Tate or any of those men online. Right. That that comes from the fact that there is an immense neglect in society toward boys especially and men, and it leads to so much repression, which then can come out either in aggression or depression. And yet it seems from this, you know, one hour podcast that you don’t carry those, those, those traits or toxicities in a way that has been destructive to you. And I, I just don’t get how you’ve done it. How have you escaped this?

Stephen [00:50:48] Well, I hope that’s the case. And I hope that I’ve continued to try and improve myself as a person and as a human. But I do think, you know, when I was young

Jameela [00:50:58] I’m not kissing your ass, by the way. I’m genuinely asking because

Stephen [00:51:00] No, I appreciate that, but I think

Jameela [00:51:02] Because you’re also from a generation that was especially, like, stiff upper lip, chin up, don’t, you know, don’t let your feelings out. So I’m wondering genuinely, especially having not had therapy, how this has happened.

Stephen [00:51:14] Well, but I do think that there’s, I look back and I think a lot of the conversations which are being had now are valuable because, for instance, when I was younger and, you know, I would feel awkward around, you know, the opposite sex. And I certainly did not feel like I was a male with power in that relationship, you know? And so you feel, as vulnerable as anyone in those equations, emotionally vulnerable. And so I can see how that can turn quickly and be and be turn into toxic behavior. Or you can kind of, you know, you you know, you can be seduced by the Andrew tates of it because I don’t think that men they there’s a power that men have that they don’t always realize they have. And I think that conversation is, is out in the open a lot more now, which I don’t I think as a vulnerable young man, you, you aren’t aware of because you do feel as, as it were, oppressed by life as anybody else, as you know, as lost as you’re figuring it out, like I say, whether you feel socially awkward or sexually awkward or whatever it is, you know, that stuff impacts men as much as it does anybody else. So I certainly don’t feel like I had it figured out forever, but I do think I’ve tried to, like I say, because I realized that no one had it figured out, I’m very open to hearing criticism of myself, of my gender. I’m very willing to listen to that stuff and think, “Oh Christ, have I done that? Am I guilty of that?”

Jameela [00:52:46] But also, you like the things that you were writing

Stephen [00:52:48] Be willing to keep changing, I suppose.

Jameela [00:52:49] Totally, and that’s great, but that’s now you’re talking about your outward behavior. I’m not, I’m talking about the how were you able to access that sensitivity? Because also a lot of the love stories, as I was saying earlier in The Office, like, you know, that was so instrumentally you. There’s a tendency towards writing like the intricacies of romance, like there’s a sensitivity to all of your work. That means that I always wondered if that sensitivity would only come out during the work, or if that is, were you just a sensitive, like a sensitive and emotionally available from from being a young man even? Because that’s not easy in Britain.

Stephen [00:53:24] No, I don’t know that I was.

Jameela [00:53:26] Right.

Stephen [00:53:26] I was always interested in expressing it creatively, and I was drawn to the music.

Jameela [00:53:31] So that was your way of being able to express it?

Stephen [00:53:34] I think so, and I think the music that I was a fan of felt like it was lots of forelorn guys, you know, in backrooms writing songs, you know.

Jameela [00:53:42] I’m now dating one of those exact guys.

Stephen [00:53:43] There you go.

Jameela [00:53:43] Yeah, haha.

Stephen [00:53:45] So that was what I was drawn to. And uncertainty, you know, in The Cffice, the idea of the sort of the pining for the girl from afar. And I remember watching when we did the American version, one of the American writers was like, “Why doesn’t he just ask her out?” And I remember thinking, “Yeah, that’s a good point, actually.”

Jameela [00:54:01] Never occurred to me.

Stephen [00:54:02] It never occurred to me. But yeah, so I think I’ve always felt like writing was a way of trying to express that and even doing comedy, trying to never be, you’re never completely honest because I think you’re partly trying to protect other people as well.

Jameela [00:54:17] From your brain. Your terrible vampire brain.

Stephen [00:54:17] But you want to sort of well, you don’t you don’t want them to feel that they’re being mocked or that you’re exploiting shared stories. But but in the same way, you still want to try and sneak it in so that people feel they can share your, your experiences. It’s like particular on the radio, you know, I think some people still listen to the old radio shows we do thinking I’m still the 25, 27 year old going to parties and, you know, accidentally setting his shirt on fire while chatting up a girl. You know, I think like, it’s like I that’s not who I am anymore, but I like the fact that I was honest enough to share those stories at the time, so that hopefully like minded people kind of, “Oh, right. He’s he’s an idiot like me,” you know. Like I said, I think it’s being the more you can kind of laugh at yourself and share that those stories and those experiences with people, the more you’ll find the kinship and like minded people who are there to share it with you.

Jameela [00:55:16] And the more survivable life is.

Stephen [00:55:19] Yes. So much easier.

Jameela [00:55:20] Ultimately so much more survivable if you can, and I think that sometimes people call that a defense mechanism or denial, and I understand that, but the amount I’ve been through in my life and have come out of it comparatively, relatively unscathed. I’ve been, I’ve obviously had some terrible, terrible lows, but not as much as I should have considering what I’ve been through. And that’s not because I’m especially strong. It’s it’s truly just because there’s a dark, dark sense of humor in me that is, that is looking for the dopamine of the laugh. And I think that dopamine is the medicine that has kept me alive.

Stephen [00:55:56] I think that’s it. I do. I think there’s so much value in humor.

Jameela [00:56:00] Yeah.

Stephen [00:56:00] It’s whether you’re a funny person or not, it’s it’s being able to laugh at the absurdity of things, even in the saddest times, the darkest times, knowing that there’s light at the end of the tunnel and you’ll be able to look back and see the funny side of things, you know? And my dad was always very good at that. And, you know, he’s had some tough times over the years, but he’s always been able to turn them into something funny in retrospect. And, I think it’s just it just gives you great solace. I mean, I remember being at some event and I remember seeing George Clooney looking dapper, and I was also thinking I looked, I looked quite dapper. And I looked down and I’d stood in some dogshit and I thought, “I bet that doesn’t happen to George Clooney.” But, maybe it does.

Jameela [00:56:38] You know what?

Jameela [00:56:39] And George just keeps it quiet.

Jameela [00:56:40] Someone said to me something at the beginning of my career, I think I was nervous because I was going to have to accept an award in front of a lot of people, and I was terrified, and he was like, “Listen, just remember, every single person in this industry and in the world has, at one point in their life at least one time has taken a shit and then realized the toilet roll is finished and then they’ve had to do the shitty squat walk around the apartment or house looking for anything to wipe their asshole with.” He was like every single, he was like Meryl, George Clooney, Angelina Jolie. He was like, you name it, any supermodel, any celebrity, any politician, at one point they all had to do the bow legged, shitty squat, walk in

Stephen [00:57:26] Yes.

Jameela [00:57:26] In terror and desperation.

Stephen [00:57:29] That’s right.

Jameela [00:57:30] It disemboweled the feeling of the inferiority complex for me.

Stephen [00:57:35] That is the perfect positive note to end on I would think.

Jameela [00:57:38] I’d say so.

Stephen [00:57:40] It doesn’t get more, more life-affirming than that.

Jameela [00:57:43] No, uplifting. Yeah, exactly than that. Thank you. You’re a treasure. And and I’d say always that you are the best person anyone could have at a party, and I’m just leaving it at that. Thanks for coming today.

Stephen [00:57:53] Yeah. Just keep me away from your windows.

Jameela [00:57:55] Yeah. Hahaha! And everyone go and watch The Outlaws season three.

Stephen [00:58:00] Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

Jameela [00:58:08] Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil was produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimmie Gregory, and Amelia Chappelow. And the beautiful music that you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. And if you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. It’s such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at I Weigh we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording, sharing what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners.

Listener [00:58:42] I weigh being a good friend to the people in my life and being a kind stranger to those that I do not know. I weigh my eating disorder recovery, my healthy boundaries, my strength in removing myself from abusive relationships. I weigh my intelligence and my empathy. I weigh being a psychology major so that I can be a therapist, and I weigh my love for my dog.