EP. 144 — Iliza Shlesinger

Jameela Hello, and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, a podcast that seeks to kick shame right in its dick hole. Sorry, that was too much, wasn’t it? That was too much energy, I think. I’ve just had a coffee. But also, it’s the beginning of the year, and I’m I feel like, hyped up. I feel excited. I don’t know why I give a shit, because normally every year just keeps getting worse than the year before. But for some reason, I buy into the new year. Like, happier me, optimism. There’s hope that it might not be worse. There’s hope that I might not be worse. There’s hope that we might not be worse. It feels like changes in the air and hopefully for the better, but we’re not going to hold our breath anymore after what happened before when we all said, “Fuck you, 2019. Suck my dick. 2020 is where it’s all going to be about; fuck that whole decade!” And we wrote off an entire decade that was so much better and more peaceful than this. So hold on basically, hold on, but enjoy this moment while you can. 

I am so grateful to you for the lovely letters that you wrote me over the last couple of weeks. I always get a lot of correspondence from you guys during that time, the gooch of the year, the taint of the year when nothing’s really happening. And because nothing’s really happening, I get to read those letters the most. They mean a lot to me, and I’m glad that we could engage with each other in that way. I’m also glad you loved the episodes over the holidays. The Period Power one with Maisie Hill one seems to have just created a storm of letters from all of you, and I’m so glad that you’re finding that helpful. Anyone out there who wants to learn more about how to use their menstrual cycle to actually make your life better and to utilize it to make you stronger, and who also wants to learn a bit about autism. It’s a fucking amazing episode based on her book, Period Power. She’s incredible. 

And I have another incredible woman on my podcast this week to kick off the year with right, good, strong, tough, ‘don’t give a fuck’ energy. It is the excellent Iliza Shlesinger. She is a comedian. I’ve been watching her for years, and she has countless Netflix specials. She’s one of the biggest names in comedy at the moment. And she is unlike almost anyone I’ve ever seen in the public eye. She’s incredibly confident and just set in her feet. I don’t know exactly what I mean because that’s not a sentence. But what I’m trying to say is that she feels very grounded. You know what I mean? Like, she feels like she really walks the fucking walk. And she’s very empowering on that stage. And she’s very good at calling out things that don’t make sense and aren’t fair, especially for women and I just think she’s very cool and a good vibe, and we all just need a bit of a fucking high five. Now, she has her own podcast. It’s called Ask Iliza Anything, where she is the blunt, honest best friend that everyone needs and she answers listener questions. It’s also on Earwolf and you can get it wherever you get your podcasts. You should definitely give that a listen. 

But in this episode, we discuss her experience as a new mum. We talk about her choice to be a mother, her way. She talks about being such a confident voice and how she keeps her confidence and doesn’t let negativity or jealousy weigh her down. And it really feels like she means it when she’s talking about it. She talks about the ways that women are pitted against each other and how we have to be aware of how we cannibalize each other while the patriarchy just looks on and laughs, something that I’ve spoken about a lot on this podcast. And she also talks about how feminism doesn’t mean loving and respecting every woman, but rather holding every woman to the same standard that we hold men. And I think that’s a really important conversation that sometimes we shy away from. She also shares about learning from other perspectives and why labeling people doesn’t really allow for learning, which is a tricky subject that I think people are starting to creep into more and more, but one that we really need to have, because we need to make all progressive spaces as welcoming as possible so that we can gain more traction and get more followers and get more people to join our movement rather than ostracizing people and making them afraid to even come near us in the first place. 

So we talk about all of this, and it’s an interesting dynamic because I think at the beginning of the episode, I felt a bit scared of her, a bit intimidated by her, and I couldn’t tell if she liked me or not. And we hadn’t really met. I’d just been sort of an enjoyer of her work from the outside, but we kind of start to warm to each other and by the end of it, it’s just like a real I think it’s like a real sisterhood lovin’. And so I always enjoy dynamics like that where it’s someone that I haven’t met before and I don’t know how it’s going to go. And I feel like it’s a wonderful experience of two women coming at life from maybe two different places, but really finding a solid middle ground. And I feel like I wish that we all did that more. So please enjoy this lovely episode with the excellent Iliza Shlesinger.

Jameela Iliza, welcome to I Weigh. How are you? 

Iliza I’m doing well. And I just want to say, this is the difference between a professional former model and me. You’re in like full cat eyeliner, and I’m like, I’ll put some oil on my face, and I just look really shiny. 

Jameela If it makes me feel better. This is last night’s eyeliner, and I’m still on my pajamas, so I’m actually a filthy scumbag. 

Iliza No. It’s even more glamorous. 

Jameela Yeah, I can’t stop. I don’t know what happened at 36. The age that I’m supposed to start caring about skin care. I’ve gone full 17 year old scumbag self and I’m just sleeping in all my makeup. And I think I’m just going to try and push to find out how much bullshit the industry has full of all the millions of rules they give us about our fucking skin. In a year’s time

Iliza I think it’s more about the eye infection than anything. I think it’s less about beauty, more about ocular care. 

Jameela Hygiene’s never been my vibe, but yeah. And if you re I’ll check in again. And if in a year from now I still look like Saddam at the end of his life, then we’ll know. How have you been. 

Iliza Well, on that note, on the on the murder of Saddam Hussein, does it count as murder if the guy was bad? I’m great. I’m just wrapping up the end of my tour and I get those last those like five delicious weeks at the end of the year where everything is calm and beautiful and cold in L.A. So this is like what I work for all year, like these few weeks of nothingness. 

Jameela And are you feeling good in yourself? I mean, it’s been a really fucking mad few years. It’s been very transformative for some people. I feel like some people are only just starting to gauge the fact that this is hopefully over now. How how has it transformed you this last few years?  

Iliza You know, I feel like it’s tough to answer that question because everyone is so cancelable, like, God forbid I say I’m feeling great. It’s like, well, then they’ll unpack everything about how dare a woman say she feel good. But the answer is I work really hard. I have I just had a beautiful baby and I love my job and I love that I, I appreciate it even more since it was taken away for a few years, you know. So I. Just getting the chance to be back, working and back with people and back performing has been great. I think we’re all getting back to some semblance of a warmed over normalcy. It’ll never be the same, but at least it’s better than COVID. 

Jameela Yeah, 100%. Also, this is a safe space like this podcast audience isn’t up for canceling, especially not women who’ve managed to find some solace in truly some of the darkest times we’ve seen in a while worldwide. I’m really happy to hear that you’re okay and well. It’s been a really fucking intense few weeks politically and few years and few decades. And so, yeah, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t worry too much about that. How are you feeling about being a mum? 

Iliza I love it. I love seeing the world through her eyes. I love that I have a full time nanny so that I get to be the best version of myself around her and she gets to be the best version of herself. I also love that I have a woman who shows me how to do everything because I, let’s be honest, was not going to read the books. I love it. I love that there’s something bigger than me in this world. And I love having that sort of touchstone in my life. Like, I love that I miss her. I love that I think about her future. Like it’s nice to know and artists, we’re so selfish and everything has to be so selfish because you are your product. So it’s nice to know that there’s something bigger than me to worry about in my life. 

Jameela Yeah. I also love the fact that you talk about having a nanny because I have so many friends who are having babies, who are some of whom feel like that’s something they are allowed to do, and others who feel as though they shouldn’t have, even if they have access to a night nurse or the doula or the help or someone to be there for every single fucking minute. A lot of people feel a lot of guilt around this, and I can see that you don’t. And I would have predicted from watching your stand up over the years you wouldn’t. And I’m glad because I think it’s really fucking important and I don’t think there is enough emphasis still, even after all these years, after all these conversations on women, even at the very start being allowed to maintain their sense of self and how good that is for the child, it’s always considered as though that’s always taking something away from the child. But happy, you know, like a happy mother is going to make for a happier baby, in my opinion. 

Iliza I, I agree with that. I also made a decision when I got pregnant and I talk about this in my book like I put on blinders I did not welcome nor invite in, nor pay attention to any unsolicited advice. Hating women is a national pastime, and shaming mothers is like a special thing that everyone participates in. And this sort of a priori assumption about all women is that we’re all evil and wrong and doing it wrong. We have this obsession in our nation with forcing women to have children. Yet when you do, no one thinks any woman knows what she’s doing. And I found in being interviewed about being a mom, I didn’t have the same sort of answers that were expected, which are all valid answers. You know, you’re exhausted or you’re up every night. But my experience, because I make certain choices in my life to be able to afford this person, I don’t have those experiences. And then I’ve just decided to lean into it. You know, it’s not like I have old family money and I have a nanny. Like, I work super hard and I pay for this person. And if anybody has anything to say about it, they can fill out a comment card and drop it in the garbage. 

Jameela Yeah. You’re not the first person I’ve had on this podcast who said, I’m not reading the books. I’m doing this my own way, I’m following my own instincts, and that makes me really happy to hear that. 

Iliza I didn’t read the books in school. Why would I read them now? Like, I’m not going to read the books. I’m just going to do the thing. 

Jameela I know you’ve had a daughter, correct? 

Iliza I have. 

Jameela Yes. You’ve had a daughter. How how did that feel? I’m always curious when my my friends have girls, especially, like, what is that what does that feel like to have a have a young woman in this world? 

Iliza Of course you, not only do you worry more, but I reevaluate. I’m an intelligent person who has made mostly safe choices in life. And even as that person, I look back at the dumbest shit that I did thinking like, No, I can totally walk home alone. I can, you know? Even with all the safety and all the intelligence, like the just the, the choices that youth makes you make because you think that you’re invincible. And so wondering how I’m going to impart that wisdom onto her, which, you know, she’s not going to want to hear. So I think about safety and I think about how do I, without jamming it down her throat, like all I want for her is to move through this world with the impunity that an average mediocre man might have. And I think about the way my mother instilled that in me. We never said the word feminism. Like it wasn’t avoiding it. It just wasn’t a conversation. I think there’s a lot of conversation now about empowering women. But if you look back, you know, we always label women like, wow, your mom was such a strong mama making it work. She was a single mom going to work. Just she didn’t have time to make it about this glittery empowerment. She just did it. And seeing a woman that owned a set of tools and knew how to fix things and went to work and was just not tough but just did what was required. I want my daughter to see that in me without making a thing of it. Because if you don’t make a thing of it, then it’s just the way that you are. So there’s a lot to unpack there. Just want her to be cool. 

Jameela Yeah. I was wondering, are there any because I mean, I feel like this is what’s so fantastic about women. Look, you can do a fucking great job at whatever age you choose to have a baby. But I do have a special love. I think a lot of my friends had anxiety about waiting until they were like deep into their thirties to have children. But I’m like, Oh, this is when you’ve learned I feel like some of your most important lessons, because they’re such little sponges and you get to impart so many of the stuff that you realize, not just the learning that you’ve done, but I’d say almost more valuably, the unlearning and unlearning that I’ve watched over the years. I’ve been watching you at the Comedy Store for eight years, you know, and it’s been fun. 

Iliza Why didn’t you ever say hi? 

Jameela Because I never come backstage and bother the comedians. I feel like that’s lame, so I just. 

Iliza Oh my God. 

Jameela I just want to like, you know. 

Iliza You’re a celebrity. We, that’s all they want. That’s silly. 

Jameela No, I. Yeah, I live. I live just, like, kind of behind The Comedy Store. So I used to go down there all the time. But, you know, I’ve I even just in watching, like, the way you talk about yourself, the way that you talk about your body, the way that you talk about your attitude has like your whole vibe has has shifted right in front of me. And it’s been really exciting to watch. Your new special’s fucking excellent. 

Iliza Thank you, thank you. 

Jameela I really like as a as a large titted person who actually ended up having to have a, an operation to reduce my breasts and then somehow they’re just creeping back, which feels like I want my money back. Thank you for your extended piece on large breasts and the bras that we wear. The boulder holders. 

Iliza Thank you. 

Jameela But it’s been it’s been it’s been fun to watch your. Do you feel like you’ve been through quite a big shift in your thirties? 

Iliza Oh, absolutely. And I do, first and foremost want to say it’s so refreshing to be on a podcast with a host who knows who I am. So thank you. You’d be surprised. Yeah, I think. I think your thirties is hyper transformative. You know, your twenties. It’s great. Look, you’re young and, like, plump and stupid in your twenties, and that’s necessary because you’re okay with being, like, poor and like drinking like grain alcohol and, you know, all the gritty things that you go through and you’re staying at like a cheap hotel or a hostel. Like these things are cool in your twenties because you don’t know any better and you have the energy to deal with it. You have the energy to be hung over at work and go out that night and your skin’s going to look fine. You can sleep in your makeup. In your thirties, you become more in touch with who you are. So many things start to shift. Whether it’s your dating pool is different, your friends doing different things, like you really start to take shape as an adult. Um, and, you know, I think that there’s, I had my baby at 38. I’m like, how old am I now? 38. And I think more and more women are having children later because we’re more and more we’re educated and we’re holding out for the right partner and wanting to be who we are. But it would have been cool to have her earlier just because I don’t want to be like 90 when she’s in her forties, but it is what it is. So I think the big takeaway is whatever age you are when you finally create the life that you’ve been working toward. It was always meant to be that way. My mom had me a little bit older and I’m glad I did it this way. But, you know, if you do it younger, you’ll just have more energy. So good for you. But I’m definitely more rooted in who I am. I have a better sense of it. 

Jameela Yeah. 

Iliza It’s cool. 

Jameela You know, you’re saying that you’re when it comes to your daughter, you do want to make a big deal of it. But are there any kind of, like, top lies you want to prepare her for? Like the big lies against women. The way that you talk about things being a scam, the things that you feel like that are there, that kind of, you know, that misogyny exists is this kind of like mist that we can’t really we can’t see it and we can’t fully taste it. But we know that it’s salty, but we can’t fully like place the taste. We know it’s there. It’s like this fucking it’s like this kind of poltergeist kind of force around us. I would love to know, like, what are some of the things that you would like to just dispel day one? Not day one obviously because she won’t fucking understand. 

Iliza Day one. 

Jameela Yeah, day day like day 3000. You know. 

Iliza Before you learn sign language for piss and beer, let me just tell you. 

Jameela About the patriarchy. 

Iliza I mean. Yeah, who doesn’t wanna hear? I think I just remember my whole life. Because these we all act as if these conversations about gender and misogyny and patriarchy aren’t happening for the most of us, for the bulk of us later in life, this is all very hot topic stuff and has been for about the past ten years. But like growing up, like I don’t think I said the word feminism until I was like 28. This was not in the zeitgeist. And we all act just like we do with wokeness and everything. We all act like we’ve been on this from the jump and we haven’t. And I can say, just from growing up, I never saw a difference between me and the boys. I never it never occurred to me that I wasn’t just as funny because I was. It never occurred to me that I wasn’t smart or smarter. 

Jameela Mm hmm. 

Iliza And I. I think that that has carried me very far. And I think back and I. It’s funny that you even asked that, because this morning I was thinking about how there is this theme my whole life of my mom being like, Don’t you let them say that. Get back out there. Not forcing it, just like that’s just how she was. And so letting her know. No, you talk. You speak when you’re done speaking, they can speak. And you don’t let that boy talk over you and you don’t let them do this. And if it’s a boys club, like you belong there, you just you know, you hold your own and you don’t use your the fact that you’re a girl as a crutch. And you just get right in there and you find the people that will support you. So just sort of dispelling that you’re less than or anything, you know, a lot of people talk about. 

Jameela Like there’s anything pre premeditative or not premeditative like is in fuck was it preexisting. Right. There’s nothing preexisting about your condition just because of your gender. 

Iliza Yeah. And you go race those boys, if you lose, that’s okay. Like you get in there, you speak up. Um, and I won’t, you know, you’ve got to kind of insert it slowly. So that’s, that came out wrong. But you have to. 

Jameela I think it’s always best to insert everything slowly. Just as a general rule.  

Iliza And romantic. But I just want her to. All I want for her. And this is what I really want for anyone. And I want for myself. I want you to walk into any room and feel that you belong. Head held high. You look people in the eye and you let them worry about you. You just. You came to play. 

Jameela Is this. Have you ever faltered from this? Because from the second I first saw you, I was like maybe 28. I was like, Geez, fuck. She’s got so much self-confidence. Like, she’s so in her body. She’s. Her feet are so firmly, like, rooted in the ground to the point where it’s like, it’s almost intimidating. And I mean that in a good way. And actually, I want to get into I want to get into your views on how women see other women, because I think that’s so fucking necessary as a conversation. But have you have you always been able to master that? Have you ever faltered in that confidence? And have you received pushback not just from men, but from women about how like errgh your energy is? Because it is very like there’s a there’s a good like inner bear that comes out of you, which I enjoy. 

Iliza Inner bear. That’s very cool. 

Jameela Yeah. 

Iliza You know who you are, who I am. I’m not going to speak for any other comics. Who I am on stage is an extension of who I am. But it is heightened, you know, in real life. I’m not the kind of person that I don’t ever feel the need to take the attention away in a room. I don’t I’m not loud or anything like that. And it’s not as aggressive. But, you know, when you’re watching the stand up, I’m making a point and that spirit sort of takes over. That’s why I’m so physical. Like, it’s just the sort of vibe that I step into. I guess I’ve heard that before in my life. They’re like, Well, you’re intimidating. And it’s always to your to a fault. It’s never you’re intimidating. Therefore, we gave you this raise. Not that I’ve ever had, like a real job. 

Jameela No but it’s also important to imply that when someone’s no one can really be intimidating, but you are just intimidated. So it’s like it’s very important to make sure that we’re all aware of that. I get accused of being intimidating all the time, especially because I’m like 5’11”, you know? So it’s just like and I’m I’m incredibly I don’t really acknowledge like a social contract as to how I’m supposed to behave because I’m a woman. And so I think I resonate a little bit with that around you. 

Iliza I appreciate that. I think, you know, you’re saying you’re not I’m not intimidating, you’re intimidated. But again, that’s another thing that the last few years we’ve come around to, whereas prior to that, no one was saying that everyone was like, Well, you’re intimidating. And it usually did come about other women, you know, like I’m like, why isn’t she nice to me? Well, she’s intimidated. I’m like, but that’s I don’t get that. And I always I always say, like, insecurities are such a dangerous thing because people project their insecurities onto you, and then it’s your fault. Oh, you’re intimidating. Oh, Jameela, you’re pretty. Therefore, he wasn’t nice. You know, people’s insecurities. You have to pay for them. Especially when you’re a woman. Whatever you are or whatever you’re not is something that you have to pay for and. There’s nothing you can do about it. I can’t help somebody feel better about themselves. I can’t go back and fix what happened to you in high school. I can’t help what you’re projecting on me. I’ll never forget this. When I, the first time I was on TV. My mom found this. It was like some TV reviewer. Some blogger, it was like 2008, was like, I don’t like her. I was on a TV show and they’re like, She’s a bra stuffer. And that was the first real time I’d ever seen. You know, I was like, 25. How ugly another woman’s jealousy can be. Because I don’t stuff my bra. I’m definitely not stuffing it on TV. But this thing. 

Jameela And if you did, that would be a really odd reason to dislike someone. 

Iliza Also, it’d be a weird thing to do in standup comedy, but just that ugliness or that jealousy. And I think I think we’re getting better as a society. But also, like then you get, you know, it becomes about women versus women and it’s like, let’s not let’s not take away the weight of how ugly jealousy can be or insecurity can be in a man. And only in men does it turn violent. And I talk about this in my standup, only in men. And this is not about vilifying all men. And if you think it’s that, you’re missing the point. Only in men do we see. She wouldn’t have sex with me. Women aren’t attracted to me. Therefore, I’m going to pick up this gun. Therefore, I’m going to hurt someone. With women it just tends to be like you have a burn book. Or like, you’re just like, kind of a bitch in the corner. But you are meant to pay for if you’re a woman and you’re steadfast and you’re confident and that upsets a man because it triggers something in him that’s inadequate. Now, you will we will spread rumors about you. I will make your life difficult. I might hurt you. It manifests itself in very evil ways oftentimes. And here you are. You’re just a beautiful girl who just showed up and worked with what you had. Maybe you’re not beautiful. Maybe you’re smart. Maybe your commanding. Maybe you’re strong. And people hold these things against you. And I’ve found in comedy it’s so incredibly hurtful just with the things that I’ve dealt with because, like, I just showed up to make people laugh. 

Jameela What kind of stuff have you dealt with? 

Iliza I mean, I’ve whether it’s people just not like I mean, this happens to everyone, you know. The feedback of, well, you’re intimidating. Well, he met you once. He said you weren’t nice. I’m, like, in a green room for 2 seconds. Like, why is this something you even think about? The jealousy, insecurities coming from. From men, male comics. Now, this is something that I’ve moved past. I’m in a different echelon, you know. But if you’re not careful, it can weigh you down. And again, I always look at this like the lens of comedy. I talk to a lot of female comics that are like, well, this guy said this or this girl did this, and I’m like. Do your work. Go home. Like, don’t get caught up in that. Because that energy, it’s a low vibration and it pulls you down. People are going to hate if you succeed. They just are. But for every five people you lose, you gain X amount of fans or friends or admirers. I mean, I definitely move through this career nervous that because of the feedback I got when I was younger, because I’m this confident girl who’s just doing her job and it upsets people. And so you go to a podcast or into a meeting and the feedback is, Oh my God, they’re such a fan. And you’re like, Oh, oh. I thought everybody like hated me secretly. And that was never true. But if it happens to you enough when you’re younger. It like it sticks with you, even though you never did anything to hurt anyone, you know? 

Jameela You also in the special talk in a way that’s so refreshing. I haven’t really heard anyone talk about it like that, about the way that women can compare themselves to other women and that we have stigmatized and like twisted, annulled into only being something negative. Can you just expand on your thought around that? 

Iliza I in the special, you know, it’s about competition and I basically posit like it’s competition is a word I’m sorry, competitive is a word that we reserve as a positive for men, male athletes, male CEOs, but as a negative should any woman try to better herself. Like when I look at you right now, it’s not about me judging your eye makeup. It’s about me thinking like, would that work on me, you know? And like, it it we have to understand as women, some things work for her and they’re not going to work for you. And that can be okay. And looking at other women. It’s when I look at you, I think like, what about her do I want to take myself? Like, Could I do bangs? Probably not. I don’t have enough hair. Do I like that? Do I not like that? So it’s it’s you can everything in your world is available to you. And it doesn’t you don’t need to take it away from another woman. 

Jameela And you say that we’re kind of scanning each other as a kind of almost evolutionary process, right? 

Iliza Yes. 

Jameela Of this is how we evolve. This is how. 

Iliza This is how you get this is how you know, you wouldn’t know to do your I keep coming back to your eyeliner. You wouldn’t know to do

Jameela I’m very impressed that my that this like 48 hour crust is like taking up so much space here. I’m I’m excited for the brand. 

Iliza It’s the nicest thing on this podcast right now. 

Jameela Thanks! 

Iliza It’s the most well done. No, but like, you should shout out whoever that eyeliner is it’s about. You wouldn’t know. Naturally, there are certain things evolutionary you would know. Like, you know, you need to get warm. You know you need to eat. I would not know I need shiny hair unless I saw another woman with shiny hair. And that was touted as valuable. I would not know I need a tan unless companies told me you know.  

Jameela Right, but that’s a slippery fucking slope, isn’t it? Right. So it’s like, okay, fine. There’s, there’s a there’s a line between the evolution and like, oh, I should do that, or that looks good or I enjoy her oversize jacket. She looks comfortable in that. I’m going to try one of those. But then also we have to be careful with that as to the fact that a lot of shit gets held up as valuable that isn’t fucking valuable, that then pressures us into like shit that’s going to hurt us, you know? I think that’s why we have to kind of like, yeah, we have to be careful. I mean, just this week I’ve been not fucking popping off about the, the attempted revival from the media of heroin chic. So it’s just like we, we have to be careful and that gets you. You’re right. But it does get abused by, I think, the advertising world. 

Iliza I think part of that comes into understanding. Look, when you look at another girl, when you’re younger, that jealousy is often rooted in she’s getting the attention from the boys. She’s getting that attention because she’s pr- you know, I always liked having pretty friends and friends who are prettier than me. And it’s okay to be like, she’s hotter than me. That’s not my thing. It’s okay. I like being around prettier girls. 

Jameela Because it’s a subjective thing. It’s so subjective anyway. So it’s also like like, okay, fine. According to you or according to one other person,. 

Iliza Your high school, exactly. 

Jameela Who knows? Who knows who’s prettier or not prettier? But I agree like I surround myself with women who are just more impressive than me in every way. And I like it because it forces my vibration to rise up to theirs, you know? And there are, for example, I when I see you in interviews and stuff, you know, or talking online, I’ve seen you on podcasts like the fact that you are incredibly blunt and you’re not trying to I don’t find you disingenuous at all. And you’re just sort of like you are you and you’re you seem to be at least, like, comfortable or accepting of the idea that you’re going to be some people’s cup of tea and you’re not going to be others. When I see that, I’m like, Oh, that’s good. That that feels good. That feels authentic. And like, I would like to continue to be more like that. It’s encouraging to me. 

Iliza Oh, I appreci- oh. 

Jameela Who’s trying to find that like road of authenticity myself, because I’d rather people just don’t like me than like a fake version of myself that I then have to keep up somehow. I can’t do it. I’m too tired, I’m old. It’s just hard enough. Life is hard enough as a woman. I can’t.  

Iliza I think  you found it. I feel like when I think about you, like you’re the girl that’s like. Fuck this standard. Fuck this. Here’s what I think I’m on. I’ve got a jillion followers. I don’t think I think you don’t need to. I think you’re leading the way in that. 

Jameela No, no, no. But I’m just saying that, like, I appreciate when I see something in someone else that I don’t have, especially if I think it’s something that’s actually going to make me happier. If I see someone much, much, much thinner than me, I know what I would have to do to do that because I’ve done it before and I know it would make me fucking miserable and tired and I would have no sex drive and I would have no more friends because I’d be a miserable cunt. Anyway, that’s that’s all I was thinking about that. So I’m glad that you are talking about a way in which we can find we can find that balance. And it is a balance and sometimes it can teeter over into the meanness. And you talk about the fact that just because you have maybe a judgmental thought occasionally about, God forbid, another woman, it doesn’t make you a bad feminist just to have the fucking thought. Just don’t say it out loud. Don’t, don’t share that thought with everyone. Like, look at it, hear it, honor it. Ask yourself why you thought it. Is it a any kind of projection of something that maybe you yourself are struggling with about you, or are you just being a bit of a bitch for a moment and then just let it pass, let it move on. I think if we try and suppress it completely, we’re never going to actually identify where it comes from. And I think therein lies the danger. 

Iliza That’s the other thing. I completely agree with that. And that’s for anything like why did I have that thought, like actually having the self-awareness to like unpack that. And usually it comes from jealousy. Usually it does like, oh, you know, I saw this thing on Instagram. Not that you should live your life by post, but someone was like, If you want people, if it’s not so much, if you want people to like you, but make a habit of complimenting people behind their back. You know, that’s that’s cool. Like not that you shouldn’t say it to them, but, you know, like, oh, my. Oh, yeah, I heard about you. Oh, my friend said that you were always so much fun at a party or that you’re always the best dressed, you know, like, that’s nice to get a second hand compliment. 

Jameela Mm hmm. 

Iliza I think we also make the assumption when we look at other women, that somehow she is evil or bad for dressing that way or like, oh, she’s she’s trying to do something. I don’t know what she’s trying to do with that outfit, but there’s always this, like, I personally never participate in, like, plastic surgery shaming. Um, I don’t have Botox or anything like that, and I deeply, deeply don’t care if another woman does. 

Jameela Same. 

Iliza And people love and I also, like, kind of never notice unless it’s like not done well. People love to shit on and shame women and what I think about is you’re you’re shaming her because she dared to try and maybe fell a little short. 

Jameela But also but also she because she was afraid of or had already experienced shaming. Right. Even when like I pop off about the Kardashians sometimes. But even when I do, there is never, ever, ever, not a paragraph about what the fuck the society did to these powerful, famous women in the media that made them so obsessed with this thing or made them carry out their behavior like that. It’s like I’m also like I think people think I’m anti cosmetic surgery. I’m not anti cosmetic surgery. I’m not mad at anyone who does whatever the fuck they want to do with their bodies. I don’t care. It’s none of my business. What I care about is when you lie about it and then you allow yourself to be used as a stick to beat other women with where it’s just like, Well, I’m 50 and I look 12 and that’s just because I drink celery juice where it’s like, Well, no, you just have a very talented surgeon and that’s fine, but let’s just be transparent about how everyone got their shit, you know? I mean. 

Iliza Mm hmm. I don’t disagree with that. 

Jameela So, I feel I feel similarly with you about. Yeah, as you. 

Iliza I think it’s also. We love to like look at someone who got work done and it looks bad. And that breaks my heart because that woman did not want to look weird. Something went wrong or something was imbalanced or you didn’t. That breaks my heart. Like she didn’t set out to look like a fucking cat. Some people do. And like, that’s their thing. But, like, have a heart and know that, like, she’s trying to feel better about something. She’s. Have a heart. Have some empathy. And I also think about this a lot. What has been this is unrelated to that. But what has been so forced down our throats as women is that you should have this. This is what people think feminism is and it’s not. You should have this unabashed love for all women. Oh, you’re woman in comedy. You should love all women in comedy. No, I don’t love all people. This idea that like just because you’re a woman, you’re doing a great job. That’s not feminism. Feminism is me being like, hey, I’m holding you just as accountable to the same standards as a male that I don’t respect your work. I don’t like that. What we lack is that feeling, you know, when you have a woman in your life that you love so much, she’s your friend and like you love watching her thrive because you love her. Versus just a random other woman that society has decided like you need to love and respect her. I have a friend in my life. My friend Rebecca is an author. She’s like a New York Times. Rebecca Searle, New York Times best selling author. I have two books they’re they’re never going to be New York Times bestsellers. She and I are so different. I and I so love her that like, I get excited when I see her book in the airport. I get excited about the guy she’s dating. I get excited for her and her accomplishments because I genuinely love her so much. And that’s something that is rare. It’s nobody allows for you to just genuinely love not in a girl power way, not in like women uplifting women who we just met at a conference. There is something so beautiful about, like, your deep love for another woman. 

Jameela Mm hmm. 

Iliza And nobody talks about that, instead it’s just this blanket I’m supposed to apply to every woman I fucking meet because she’s a woman, too. 

Jameela Yeah, it it devalues. It sort of like, devalues under and undermines. Like, we aren’t expected to love all men like that. We’re supposed to just sort of try to accept men, and then we will love a few that we know as brothers or friends or lovers or whatever. You know? And so I agree. I agree. And I do find that kind of like blanket approach to I speak out about it a lot where it’s just like, you know, I sometimes I criticize patriarchy, mostly I criticize misogyny, but I’ll also sometimes criticize its female operatives, whoever they are, whether I’m talking about a group or an individual, it’s very important to be able to hold each other to account. I don’t think it’s feminism to just like turn the other way when someone’s doing something that’s fucking up other women. I think that we have to just kind of like I think it is natural that it would just be a big muddle because this is also new. As you said, ten, 15 years ago, we were both in this industry and not talking about feminism. I was still referring to it in my Cosmo column as the F-word, literally. And, you know, and so how we have evolved, like it’s a big fucking model. It’s a big fucking mess that you see a lot of women kind of taking huge, brave leaps and speaking out publicly about these issues and then sometimes fucking it up and it’s like, Yeah, well, it’s new, isn’t it? It’s a new conversation. We haven’t refined it perfectly. We need to chisel it down. We need to, like, perfect it. You know, the patriarchy and misogyny have had fucking thousands of years yet to affect their rhetoric. They’ve got their dossiers, they’ve got the printouts. It’s laminated, you know what I mean? 

Iliza Oh my god, that’s so funny. 

Jameela It’s like they are. They have that shit on lockdown. It’s amazing how tight patriarchy and tight misogyny is, how fast the fucking abortion laws came in. It’s just like they they are. They are girl bosses. You want to talk about girl bossing? 

Iliza I don’t. 

Jameela That is fucking patriarchy. No, exactly. Nor do I nor does anyone. 

Iliza They have their syllabi. 

Jameela That to me is a girlboss, it’s like patriarchy and misogyny. We have to catch up with thousands of years of this level of organization and we have to stop fucking tearing each other to pieces. Not I’m not saying we can’t criticize each other. That is vital in evolution to be able to say you could tweak that a bit or I could tweak that a bit, but we have so much shit to get in order in order to be able to master this. And we’re kind of being expected to master it perfectly. And women are holding other women to account, to master the way that we speak about identify or or fight patriarchy. And it’s fucking stressful. We need to give each other a fucking break.

Iliza No that’s actually a brilliant point that they’ve had more time to get this down. And what also happened that’s absolutely right. So rare that I am on a podcast and I’m like, great point. I’m going to think about that for a very long time. Not just like my eyes are rolling in the back of my head. 

Jameela Thank you I appreciate that.

Iliza And I also think a huge part of our failure to move forward faster is the backbiting, because we do fault other women for being imperfect, as if we’ve just been doing everything perfectly. Like, you know, whenever there’s a female CEO, particularly of like a female forward company, there’s always a hit piece on her. Like she didn’t have the right kind of tampons in the bathroom. She was rude at work, you know. Meanwhile, you’ve got male CEOs like chaining women to desks, sexually assaulting them on their private planes. And we’re like, well, she led imperfect, imperfectly. Let’s close it down. And I think

Jameela Well, 2020 was really interesting. Wasn’t that the statistics that came out on that, that, you know, when there was this kind of like huge reckoning of problematic behavior, especially a lack of like racial equality in the workplace, etc.. It was really interesting to see that hundreds of companies got like, you know, exposed, but it was only almost only the women who stepped down. 

Iliza Because they were they allowed themselves to be held accountable. And I will say, you know, liberal people, we tend to be like, okay, well, like Al Franken stepped down from, you know, and you’re just like, why did you do that? Like, what are you doing? You know, I think. 

Jameela Stick around and do better. Like, stick around, stick around, face the fucking music, keep going. 

Iliza Stick around, say I’m sorry. But allow people to say sorry. I mean, look, if you sexually assault someone like I don’t fucking know, but like these minor and minor things, you know. Michelle Obama, I’ll never forget, she was like, this is forever ago. She’s like, when when they go low, we go high. And I’m like, No. We have to go low. 

Jameela Oh I agree. I agree. 

Iliza I would be as awful. 

Jameela Yes. I’ve always said that when they go low, I go lower. Like I am a like a I’m a an alley cat and like a like a gutter dwelling rat wench. Really. You know, if I could describe myself, if I if I if I wasn’t in a relationship, that would be my hinge profile. But that is that is very much so my vibe. I really don’t believe in rising above. I have very, like I always say, be the smaller man, you know what I mean? Like, I think that when we say be the bigger man, we are like manipulating kind people into eating shit and then feeling good about the shit that they just ate by saying that like rise above, turn the other cheek. 

Iliza We’re talking about just politics. We’re not talking like day to day.  

Jameela No I think sometimes sometimes you need to be the smaller man as well. Yeah. You know, I’m just saying that, like I,. 

Iliza Well. 

Jameela No look it’s nuanced, as with everything it’s nuanced, but I’m just saying that I do think that look, I don’t think we should always be worse than the other person. But I do think that as women or I think as liberals, I think that’s the softer, more marginalized group who are trying to present. You know, we’re trying to be the change we want to see in the world. Sometimes we fall too far into that trap of our own attempt at good behavior. And we don’t take into account the realities of the world that we’re fighting in. And the fact that we can’t like perfection is the enemy of progress, right? Is that that it’s never been truer than now. 

Iliza Oh 1,000%. You know, you got like I think what this all stems from is everybody acting like and you see this online, you see this with all kinds of stuff. If I dare to make a statement, what, you know, save the planet. What then happens is rather than someone be like, yes, let’s save the planet, what can we do? It’s like, But weren’t you drinking out of a straw yesterday? Didn’t you make this mistake? If I say, you know, trans rights matter, they’re like, didn’t you say a slur one time in a stand up? If I say anything, whatever mistake you may have made, whether it was big or small, is then held up to you to be like, But you made a mistake once, so how dare you stand for anything positive, anything you dare to do, your character goes out the window. It doesn’t matter what your history is, you know? Because of a mistake you may have made or something you did when you were, you know, when you were younger. Let’s say you called someone fat and now you’re body positive, they’re like, well, you did call that girl fat. And you’re like, okay, but I don’t now and I wouldn’t do it again. We don’t allow for any, particularly with very liberal people. And I say this as someone who was very liberally, you got to give it a you got to set down the pitchforks because whatever your opposition is, they’re just watching as we like deliciously eat each other. Men watch as women eat each other, as progress just folds in on itself as we attempt to hold everyone accountable for everything ever done. And that’s why we’re in this fucking hellhole. 

Jameela I 100%. I agree. I mean, I’m someone who is very, very open about how fucking problematic, you know, I was and sometimes will likely continue to be accidentally. We conflate ignorance and evil and we just think the two are a they have to exist with each other. We can’t ever separate them where it’s just like, oh, someone just didn’t know better and they didn’t know to do better. I’m very, very like this whole podcast. This whole podcast is about the fact that I’m a feminist in progress. I don’t know shit about fuck. I’m here to learn from other people and have these conversations with other people and expand my horizons in front of everyone so you can just do it with me. I don’t give a shit what you know what you don’t know. I’m just excited that I’m not alone in this journey and that we’re all just figuring this shit out together. 

Iliza I’m just excited to not be alone. 

Jameela Yeah, exactly. I’m excited to learn about this stuff. I don’t I don’t consider it a failure. I don’t consider it a shortcoming. I think it’s I think there’s so much to learn for everyone. And I think it’s great that we’re even trying. We do need to fucking relax and give people, you know, as we were saying earlier, the the opposition, you know, white supremacy or all these different things have had thousands of years to prevail and organize and perfect. We are catching up. It’s going to take a minute. Everything’s updating very fast and it’s circulating faster than ever because of social media. Just take a fucking breath and learn how to get our house in order before we start like, I would say, like build the foundation of the house before you start decorating it. It feels like we’re straightening all the paintings and all the pictures without actually having, like, made sure that we are, like, in the bedrock. 

Iliza Or are we rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic? The other way.

Jameela Yeah. 

Iliza Are we going up or down? 

Jameela That’s what it fucking feels like right now. Yeah. 

Jameela Also. I mean.

Iliza Go on. 

Iliza Well, no, just have something in your life. I mean, a lot of the stems from Internet comment sections like this is not have something in your life that’s more important than fucking, I would I’ve never gone into a comment section and like shit on someone unless I was like defending myself like I would. I don’t know what possesses people to go onto someone else’s page and leave anything negative. Like, don’t you have a family watching you? Like, don’t you have a career you’re worried about? Like have something in your life that’s more important than fucking around with your thumbs on the toilet, whether it’s a charity or a dog or child or a career or, you know, putting on perfect eyeliner, like have something that that holds weight in your life so that you vibrate higher. Don’t you have better things to do? 

Jameela Yeah, I think I think as soon as we start to value trying instead of only just winning, I think we’re going to actually see some meaningful change and progress and. 

Iliza That’s un-American. 

Jameela I know. I know. 

Iliza Actually, as I said it, I was like, no, we give out medals for trying. I don’t know what we are anymore. But.

Jameela I also think there are different coasts, right? It’s like that. I. 

Iliza Yeah. 

Jameela London and New York feel like they almost only respect the hustle, not the win. And then places like California only respect the win, not the hustle. 

Iliza I was going to say the other way. 

Jameela Oh, really interesting. 

Iliza In my mind, I mean L.A. is different than Northern California or whatever, but in my mind, it’s like how beautiful and precious you tried. This was so great. Everybody gets a cookie and New York, it’s like it’s fucking cold. There can only be one. I think, I think it could go either way.

Jameela It’s so interesting to see the different perspective. It also depends like which part of New York of which part of L.A. Because it’s definitely sort of like West Hollywood. Hollywood and Venice in L.A. that feels very like we’re not going to punish children at school. We’re going to get them to meditate as detention. But outside is detention. 

Iliza That is my whole. 

Jameela That doesn’t 

Iliza I’m not good, I’m not good at it. 

Jameela No, I can’t I can’t meditate. I can’t meditate either. I feel I feel the same way. There’s too much too much noise in the world. Too much noise in my head. 

Iliza But I think even what we’re talking about right here is, you know, we have these different we have these different assumptions about different parts of the country, different parts of the world. And I think particularly politically slash socially, it’s so easy to sit where we are and be like, well, they, you know, those rednecks, those bumpkins, those people got it wrong. I travel so much for work and I’m so grateful I get a chance to go to these other places and you see, oh, my God. Like, these are nice, normal people. This is the power of local elections, by the way, who are voting for their reality. This is not about supporting racism or anything. But this is about understanding the the damage that other ism can do. And it’s not just if you’re brown or black, it can be, oh, those conservatives over there, you know, it’s not that black and white. It’s not that clear cut. A farmer in Nebraska is going to have very different values than someone living in the heart of Venice in Los Angeles, you know, and that’s okay. And we don’t allow for that nuance or that conversation. So we have these very thick, hard lines drawn. Um, and I, I just think it’s important to travel so you get the perspective of other people, of other versions of the story. You know, you leave America and you realize the world doesn’t revolve around American history. 

Jameela Yeah, I agree. I agree. I feel very passionately about this. Like I’ve I have been very careful to try to as much as I can, like hold my tongue on ever speaking down to a different political group than mine. It doesn’t help. It really doesn’t help. It just alienates people. And and also like among the left especially, we have a huge, huge blind spot for the wealth gaps and for classism. We’ll talk all day about racism or bigotry, but suddenly everyone’s like assholes clench up just kind of just as soon as we start talking about poor people, it sort of scrambles everyone’s brains and they’re like, No, no, no, no, no. Black and white and brown and this, that and the other. It’s like, No, no, no. We also need to understand that there is a huge wealth gap in which people are being completely forgotten about, completely abused, and actually it kind of equals out. At some point as to how people are being oppressed. And we need to we need to address everyone’s experience and everyone’s problems and realize that they are also like a fucking shit ton of absolutely shit broke white people who feel as though they are being completely forgotten about and ignored. You know, when you see the campaign trails of big politicians who are known on the coastal elite amongst the coastal elites, they don’t even go to those towns to visit those people. They’ve already given up on them. So it’s like we have a, you know, like Houston, we have a fucking problem when it comes to just ignoring so many people’s problems. We don’t know about the problems of people in the middle of this country. The funniest thing is that it’s not even funny. The saddest thing is that we all have a lot of the same problems. It’s just that it’s framed very differently. A lot of those people in the middle of the country are suffering the most from climate change. It’s like Noah in Brooklyn, you know, with his fuckin oatmilk latte, might be complaining the most about the climate and campaigning for paper straws. But the people who are actually drowning or drying out are in the middle of the country, we are having the same problems. But because we’re allowing ourselves to be so politically divided, we think we’re having different problems. We think we’re on different sides of the same fucking issue. It’s mind blowing to me. I, my boyfriend is a touring musician, so I get to tour the country all the time with him and I feel exactly the same way as you is that it completely changed the way that I spoke. Completely change the way that I think. Completely changed the way that I see not just America, but the world. Because I’ve now been everywhere. 

Iliza Sure. And you would be surprised what you could come together on. I was. I was on set, uh, a couple of weeks ago, and we were in driving from North Carolina. South Carolina. And the guy who was driving me was a former Marine. And just like salt of the earth, like tattoos, like wearing some sort of a shirt with an American flag that you’re like, What? I’m not positive that I agree with whatever that shirt represents. Like it had some sort of old English writing on it. We’re in the car and we start talking and he’s oh he’s wearing a let’s go, he’s wearing a fuck Brandon or like a Let’s Go Brandon hat. And I was like, Are we going to talk about this? And he was like, well, like, you know, didn’t want to get into it. And I was like, Can we agree that a woman’s body is her body? He’s like, Yeah, we can agree on that. And I was like, Great, great. Because that is like a big thing for me. And our fucking van broke down this guy within minutes had changed the tire. And it’s not that, like, I’m some city girl that’s, like, hyper impressed, but it was like. And here’s a guy he’s a father of three, you know, wants his girls to grow up in a good world. And it was like, yeah, looking at someone like you, especially with like a Let’s Go Brandon hat or whatever. There are a lot of assumptions I could make, but that day we agreed on something that was important to me and this guy, like, saved the day, and he could not have been cooler and nicer about it. And I think experiences like that and talking to people and finding what you do have in common, I know that this sounds so pedantic, you know, like just talk to people, but we don’t ever we just yell at each other and we embarrass each other. You’re definitely not going to want to hear what I have to say if I call you racist and you’re not, or if I if I talk about the patriarchy and you’re like, I’m a father with three girls, you know, we’re so quick to label other people, whether you know, or whether it’s all minorities as poor or all whites as rich or all women as bitches or all men as upholding the patriarchy. There is a nuanced conversation, and that’s what comedy is all about, is finding that common ground. When you step into a room, whether it’s Kuala Lumpur or fucking Des Moines, Iowa, which I will be at this weekend, I don’t know when this podcast comes out and just bringing people together on the things that make us human. You always hope. You always hope for the best. Prepare for the worst. And I’m not a pessimist. I am a realist. And but I go into situations hoping this person’s going to be great, hoping this experience will be good. Chances are someone is very dumb and they will fuck up. But I think people are good. I really do in their core. 

Jameela You sound a bit like an optimist to me. I have. 

Iliza I’ll take it. 

Jameela Yeah. I had a doctor of optimism, which I didn’t at first. When I first heard that, I was like, that’s a fake job, but it’s not it’s very real. And she studied for, like, seven years. Yeah, but she’s a doctor of optimism. It was a wonderful chat we had where she explained to me that I, who I consider myself nearly a nihilist because I’m just so British and so. 

Iliza Yeah. 

Jameela Sad. And so I felt as though I wouldn’t hope this. And she’s like, the fact that you’re even still here, the fact that you got up and tried again today means that you are inherently an optimist. There is an optimism. 

Iliza Yeah you got a mortgage to pay. You got to get up. You’ve got stuff to do.

Jameela Yeah. Yeah, but I wouldn’t still be doing this if I didn’t deep down believe there’s no point in activism if there is an actual. That’s why we fuck things up, right? I’ve said this before in this podcast that what is the point of activism if we don’t fundamentally believe people can change? And I feel like if we could solve that equation within among liberals, we could make so much more progress. It’s like, okay, which is it? People can’t ever change. In which case, why are we bothering then to shout at them if we don’t think they can change, are we just wasting our breath? We have to find some sort of hope here. 

Iliza I agree with that. I think, you know, people do make the same mistakes over and over. But overall, things do get better incrementally. You know, that’s why we’re all sitting here. 

Jameela Yeah also I think if you’ve made an irrevocable mistake. Like you rape someone or you kill someone. That’s different. I’m not saying everyone. I’m just saying that generally. 

Iliza No one thinks you’re saying that. 

Jameela No, no. 

Iliza We’re. We’re so. 

Jameela You’d be amazed. 

Iliza I know, but those, I am so over the sophistry and the whataboutism and the one idiot being like you’re saying, if you rape someone, it’s okay. You know, I’m done catering to those idiots. And I will say this from a pure comedy standpoint. Being an optimist leads to more comedy because you will inevitably be disappointed. Like what’s funnier? You waking up on your birthday and being like, Maybe there’ll be champagne, everyone’s going to love me. But then instead you have to go get like a polyp removed from your ovaries and sit in traffic, which I had to do on my birthday. Like, it’s only funny if you hope for the best and you eat a giant pile of shit. It’s not funny if you expect the worst and it is the worst. And so I just think from a comedy standpoint, like going to a party and being like, it’s going to be great, I’m going to meet the best people and instead like your heel breaks, you slip in the mud and your date stands you up. Like that’s funnier. 

Jameela I agree. 

Iliza That’s funner. You get to talk about it. And then it. And then you get to commiserate with other people on the worst day you had. And then you bond like bonding and comedy all come out of even low key trauma and shared horrible experiences. It’s not funny to talk about the time we went on a yacht and were really hot and got everything we wanted. 

Jameela No, no one likes that story. But. But well look, we have even in this episode, we’ve done a lot of of like there’s been bonding. It’s been bonding we’ve done some good bonding, bitching about society and and about what’s what’s going on and what’s going wrong. But speaking of the hope, speaking of the optimism, are there things that you like, kind of some prime things that you are hopeful for that you believe can happen, especially when it comes to this world for women now that you are raising one, just to go, like fully deep and just. 

Iliza I was I was going to answer. I hope we can we can’t fix climate change, but I hope we can adapt in a good way. I was going to it was all going to be about the environment. 

Jameela Right, right. Right. Like sort of. You mean like growing gils? Because I feel like that’s the only way. 

Iliza We’re not going to have any. We’re all going to melt. Um, I, I believe we are getting to a more equitable place. I believe because of these conversations that we and the women before us have had in the sacrifices people have made. I believe she will be stepping into a workplace on Mars where the glass ceiling is less of a thing. I mean, there will be new challenges, of course, like having to breathe in pure CO2. But. I feel like we’re getting to a place where more and more women, more are in charge, like the playing field is a little bit more even. I want her to live in a world where you are judged on your merit. It’s not the skin color, it’s not the gender. It’s not how you sexually associate. Whatever. That’s what I want for her because I want it when you get your win. I want it to be because of what you did, not because of who you are, you know? So. 

Jameela I think this I think I think that’s very important. I would love I would love to live in a world like that. I would love to know also second guess myself or have other people second guess me as to why I have reached certain positions of power. It would be absolutely fucking ideal. Well, look, you’re an extremely busy person. You have a tour to get back to. You are promoting all kinds of wonderful things, and I urge everyone to go and find Iliza’s work and follow her online. If you haven’t seen her. As I said, I’ve been a long time admirer of yours. 

Iliza Thank you. 

Jameela And so it’s really it’s really nice to get to meet you and to have this chat. And I, I feel so much like I, I understand you and I feel so appreciative of you and I. And it’s really nice when you see someone that you admire on the stage and then you get to actually talk to them as a human being and see that they are they don’t just talk about it, but you’re actually about it. And I really appreciate that about you. And I think your kid. 

Iliza Thank you. 

Jameela Your kid is very lucky to grow up with a role model like you. And and I hope you just keep putting this good shit out into the world and please come back anytime you like. 

Iliza I would love that. You are an I will say this. I don’t do a ton of podcasts because I don’t think everyone should have one. Even the people that I’ve that I’ve [inaudible]. You are such a good listener and I like kept. When we were talking at first I was like, Oh, are we just going to go back forth. But I started listening more as we were talking because I was like, because you you don’t blink. Like you just sit there and you listen. And part of me is like, Did I offend her? And then you’re like, That’s absolutely right. So stoic and such a good listener. I was like, Oh, don’t fucking interrupt her when she speaks because she’s giving you that respect. And so if you listen back to this podcast, you notice I stopped cutting you off halfway through because I was like, She’s listening to me. I need to listen to her. 

Jameela I, yeah, I, I’ve probably been taught to do that because at the very beginning, this podcast, everyone told me to stop interrupting the guests because I was too excited. So thank you all to that, to everyone, for your note. Look, it fucking worked. There you go. I changed. I grew. Change is possible, people. 

Iliza She’s an optimist. 

Jameela Before you go, I have to ask you, what do you weigh? 

Iliza Okay, I weigh making people feel seen through my comedy. I weigh myself in artistic accomplishment. I know we’re not supposed to say that, but these things matter to me. I weigh myself in making my daughter laugh, and I weigh in dog pictures. 

Jameela Great. And you are supposed to say that I’m big. I’m a big fan of especially women bragging. I think it’s a vital fucking practice and I think we all need to do that now. I mean, whoever you are, if you’re listening right now, just when you turn this episode off, fucking write down something that you’re really, really fucking proud of about yourself and know that we are we are maybe proud of you too. Depends on what it is. Might be something that we don’t disagree with. 

Iliza I love that. 

Jameela But yeah, I, I thank you for your time and, and I thank you for being so open in all of your work. And I’m excited to see where this goes. 

Iliza All right. Thank you for watching. And please come say hi at the Comedy Store next time, don’t be weird. 

Jameela Alright. I will. I will. 

Iliza Okay. 

Jameela Alright, bye. 

Iliza Bye.