EP. 52 — Kelly Rowland

Jameela: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, how are you? I’m fine. I’m so happy because today marks 52 episodes of this podcast, which feels ridiculous that a year has gone by so fast. But I’ve enjoyed it so much. It’s been one of my favorite things I’ve ever done in my career. And it’s an extension of something that means so much to me, which is my I Weigh movement on Instagram. I’ve learned so much from our extraordinary guests and I’ve really enjoyed learning alongside you. I’ve loved all of your feedback and all of your comments and all of your really, really personal messages about ways in which this podcast has shifted your perspective or shifted the perspective of a relative of yours who you couldn’t just you didn’t have the energy to educate anymore. I I feel immensely grateful for the community that has been built up via doing this podcast. And I can’t think of a better way to mark one year than with truly one of my all time like top of my list dream guests. And that is Kelly Rowland, actual Kelly Rowland from actual Destiny’s Child and her actual solo career. I cannot believe my childhood self, my inner teenager is fucking freaking out that she came on to my podcast. I met her a couple of years ago. We don’t know each other super well. We’ve kind of been getting to know each other over the years and bits and bobs. I don’t know if that makes sense as a sentence, but fuck it, we’re sticking with it because I’m excited. And she came onto this podcast and was so open and so honest and and so giving and so warm. And she’s so wise and she’s seen so much from such a young age, the wild ride of that career. And I think she was, you know, like 10 or 11 when she first started in Destiny’s Child to truly grow up in this industry and end up as such a balanced, stoic, but also emotionally vulnerable and mature human being is not an easy thing. And I can only say that from having met so many people who’ve been engulfed by this industry. Kelly Rowland has such a strong sense of self. And we talk about what it’s like to you know, she’s just had a second baby boy and what it’s like to raise young black men in America. Her experience with going solo after being in one of the biggest bands of all time and the comparisons that the media draw up and trying to stave off instincts of competition and then the the scrutiny of the media, the lies of the media, and also the impact that this industry and its erasure of dark skinned black women, what that did to her own self-image. And so we kind of go all over the place in all of the kind of bigger issues of things that she cares about. And she’s just super cool and her voice is so soothing and enjoyable. And she’s just a fucking ray of sunshine. She’s so cool. It’s ridiculous how grounded someone so famous is. And it was one of my favorite chats I’ve ever had, not just on the podcast, but maybe in my life. So I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. But this is the absolutely perfect Kelly Rowland. [00:03:29][209.6]

Jameela: [00:03:43] Oh, bloody hell. Pinch me, I’ve only got one of my favorite women in the whole wide world, someone who’s been one of my favorite women for like 20 years now, it’s a long time to be a fave. I can’t believe you’re on my fucking podcast. Kelly Rowland, welcome to I Weigh. How are you? [00:04:03][20.2]

Kelly: [00:04:04] Thank you boo. You said 20 years I’m like oh shit. [00:04:08][4.3]

Jameela: [00:04:12] Well, you know, we’ve both been on this planet for a long time, so that’s long enough for me to love you from afar. [00:04:17][5.8]

Kelly: [00:04:19] Oh, I love you back. [00:04:20][1.2]

Jameela: [00:04:20] You’re so sweet. How are you? What a bloody start to the year. You’ve brought a baby into the world during a pandemic. This is your second baby. [00:04:29][8.7]

Kelly: [00:04:30] Yes. [00:04:30][0.0]

Jameela: [00:04:31] How are you doing? How are you feeling? [00:04:33][1.6]

Kelly: [00:04:34] I feel good. I feel grateful I’m still floating on the new mommy cloud. Like you know where oh my God, I have a new baby and he’s so cute and he’s so sweet. And, you know, I just had, like, the whole diaper blowout. So shit is about to get real. [00:04:54][20.0]

Jameela: [00:04:55] What’s a diaper blowout? [00:04:57][1.3]

Kelly: [00:04:58] You’re joking. [00:04:59][0.3]

Jameela: [00:05:00] I don’t know anything. [00:05:00][0.5]

Kelly: [00:05:01] OK. You know where they poop and it goes. [00:05:07][5.8]

Jameela: [00:05:08] Like an explosive, an explosive shit. Did any of it go in your mouth? [00:05:12][3.5]

Kelly: [00:05:12] Hell no. Oh, my God. [00:05:14][2.6]

Jameela: [00:05:15] I don’t know I’ve heard that that happens. [00:05:19][3.9]

Kelly: [00:05:19] If I’m that close to his bottom, oh, Lord have mercy nah girl. But oh, yeah. So we’re just like, sit up there, like he’s starting to coo with me and everything. And so he’s cooing and I’m talking back to him and then I just see the face turn. Then I was like he’s about to shit. Just as I said that woosht like it makes a sound and everything. So yes, it’s crazy. It happens. And it was so cute though he still made the cutest face. [00:05:48][28.9]

Jameela: [00:05:49] My god, you’re so in love with your baby and this is your second son, you already have Titan who is how old now? [00:05:58][9.1]

Kelly: [00:05:59] Titan is six now. [00:06:00][1.0]

Jameela: [00:06:00] Six. Oh, my goodness. He is he was teeny the last time I saw him. So this is like this is he’s basically old enough to get a job soon. He’s a man. [00:06:14][13.6]

Kelly: [00:06:15] Yes. He needs one with these toys he wants and everything else. So he definitely needs the job. We need to put him more to work for sure. [00:06:22][6.8]

Jameela: [00:06:23] So with two boys now in your house, you and I have spoken about this before quite a few times. You are raising young black men in America. And I know that that is not something you take lightly. I remember reading that just when you found out, even for the first time during a sonogram, that you were having a boy, that obviously, of course, you were happy and thrilled and full of life. But also you were fucking terrified because of how much violence there is towards black men. [00:06:53][30.3]

Kelly: [00:06:54] Yes. Yes, absolutely. I never forget that feeling. It was like excitement. And then you go into the like the realization of everything, you know what I mean? And I mean, me and Tim have had those conversations as well, like the conversation that his mom had to have with him at such a young age about if you’re getting pulled over and what you’re supposed to do. And, you know, and with so much violence that we’ve seen, I just feel like it’s so much more to prepare them for, you know what I mean? And I’m just praying and hoping in my heart of hearts that, you know, this new generation of just young people and kids are going to start to, like, really shift the way the government and our leaders have to. They have to speak up and they have to start putting new laws and changing shit, you know what I mean? To really allow black lives to really matter. [00:07:59][64.9]

Jameela: [00:07:59] One hundred percent. [00:08:00][0.5]

Kelly: [00:08:01] You know, I think that well, one, I’ll tell you something that just happened, which is really nuts. So my husband was coming from… Titan had his first playdate in months. They’ve gotten tested and everything, they just so excited. They’re coming from his best friend’s house and he gets pulled over. And so I guess the cop told my husband, please cut your phone off, shut your car off and get out of the car first like it was really something stupid. [00:08:32][31.6]

Jameela: [00:08:33] Wait sorry. Shut your phone off. Why does he have to close his phone? [00:08:35][2.0]

Kelly: [00:08:35] I have no idea why he had to close his phone. [00:08:37][1.8]

Jameela: [00:08:37] I don’t fucking know why he had to close the phone, but yeah go on. [00:08:40][2.1]

Kelly: [00:08:40] Exactly. So anyways, my husband asked the officer, So you want me to step out of the car? He’s like, what did I do? And he was like, just step out of the car. He was like, well, can I please call my friend to come and pick my son up? Titan is hysterical, J like hysterical. Daddy, Daddy, please don’t go to jail. Please don’t please tell. It’s like telling telling my husband to tell the cop. Tell him I have cop cars. I like the police, I like the police. And I was I was angry. I was scared. And I thought it was really unfortunate because you have an opportunity to introduce yourself as, you know, authority who is. [00:09:25][45.3]

Jameela: [00:09:26] Protective. [00:09:26][0.0]

Kelly: [00:09:26] Protective and not an asshole, you know what I mean? For no reason. So I just feel like they have a lot of work to do. So when people say, defund the police, I think that it’s more so about them saying. [00:09:44][17.8]

Jameela: [00:09:45] Retrain. [00:09:45][0.0]

Kelly: [00:09:46] Yes. Retrain, making sure that the the the tests like you’re scanning these these officers, you know what I mean, these people and making sure that there’s the proper background checks like proper background checks, mental checks to make sure that they’re actually in a position mentally wise to be able to handle anything and everything, because you just don’t know until the opportunity presents itself to you and you don’t know how to maneuver and handle the situation when it’s escalating or whatnot, and your hand slips and or you just panic racists. And a psycho and you don’t need to be in that position. So it’s so many different. Like I’ve had friends who are officers and they’ve talked to me about their side of the story. And I’ve seen the other side and I’ve seen all I need to see, all that I want to see at this point. So I just feel like you can’t be upset with people when they say defund the police is is just them saying, like, I’m angry and you need to analyze this whole shit and get it all together. [00:10:48][61.8]

Jameela: [00:10:49] Yeah. And I think. And it is you know, it’s an interesting thing that as women, we you know, we would like some sort of system of of safe keepers, like someone who’s there to turn to if we don’t feel safe from other civilians who may be men. And so I’d like the idea of there being some sort of presence in the world that’s there to regulate those people who do not abide by humanity laws. But those people can’t be the ones that were the most afraid of. So what happens after your son was basically pleading with your with your husband and with this police officer? Did he still make your husband got out of the car? Did he calm down? [00:11:28][38.9]

Kelly: [00:11:29] No he if it was. You know my husband is so sensible. [00:11:31][1.9]

Jameela: [00:11:31] It’s wild that it took a six year old and also, like I’ve met your husband before, he’s such a calming, lovely presence. But essentially, I bet it was your six year old terror of the policeman possibly that diffused. And I made him step outside for a second and be like, oh, my God, the fact that a six year old I just have to like, say that it really strikes me that a six year old has managed to and I know how protective you are of your children, but also honest. But a six year old has ingested that terror of the police already that he knows to plead with a police officer and explain that he’s pro, you know, pro the police supportive of the police. That’s so young to even have that in your consciousness. [00:12:12][40.9]

Kelly: [00:12:13] Honestly, Jay, I cried about it that night and I was like, I really pray that he has a better experience with a police officer the next time he sees one, because that is his first one, you know what I mean? And it was really sick is there are some people who will like that kind of shit. Sorry, I’m saying the s word so much. [00:12:33][19.5]

Jameela: [00:12:33] I think I started the fuck. I kicked us off with a fuck this is where we are now. [00:12:40][6.9]

Kelly: [00:12:42] But like, it’s people who will like that kind of shit and it’s other people who will be like, I hate that for him and honestly, I hate that for him. But it’s just disgusting. [00:12:57][15.8]

Jameela: [00:12:58] You you have put a lot of thought into how you want to raise Titan and now your new baby, you have two sons. And so so will you talk to me a little bit about those kind of philosophies of wanting him to you know, I’m we’re talking about, you know, a lot of what’s been happening, like socially, politically right now with the police, etc., but also just as a young man in this world and as a young black man and how that young black man will respond to young women in his life, perhaps if he’s going to have those friendships or relationships. You know, this is stuff that you think about all the time, right? [00:13:35][36.7]

Kelly: [00:13:36] All the time. So what’s really cool is he literally just had a play date with his friend Berkeley and Berkeley came over and I made grilled cheese, made grilled cheese. And because they’re so hungry, I made sure that I brought it to the table rather quickly, cut it in half and was like the next ones coming up, guys, Titan waits for her to get her portion of the grilled cheese first like like here you go, Berkeley. And I literally walked away because he took his afterwards like a gentleman. If it was his other if it was his other buddy, he would have just, like, been hands on and go for it. Because I watched the dude with a young lady or little little girl. He understood his place to be a gentleman. And I was so proud. I said on the side like, oh, Lord, please let him be like that for the rest of his life. [00:14:25][49.6]

Jameela: [00:14:26] So how did you do it? You know, I’ve spoken at length publicly for years about the role that we can participate in. Obviously, it is also men’s responsibility to to shape the young men who are growing up in the houses. But I also think that it’s empowering for women to remember that, you know, we might have little boys growing up in our houses. We may be cousins with them. They may be our brother. They may be our son, our nephew, et cetera. But that is a little sponge there who hasn’t yet been like corrupted by patriarchy, corrupted by misogyny, corrupted by misinformation or the Internet and all the fucking lies that they get told about the world there. So you have an opportunity of the pure ball of love and you get to be their role model for for women. And you also get to teach them to be their own kind of role model, their own best self. [00:15:16][50.3]

Kelly: [00:15:17] Yes. I just I just tell him everything that it is that I need to tell him, because I’m telling you between seeing that that speech, between watching. [00:15:31][13.5]

Jameela: [00:15:32] So just to brag, just to brag for a second, he’s talking about a speech that I gave in twenty nineteen called Tell Him, which is about this very subject and Kelly fucking Roland watched it and liked it. [00:15:43][11.3]

Kelly: [00:15:43] A million times and. [00:15:46][2.6]

Jameela: [00:15:47] I’ve got nothing left to achieve. I’m quitting this podcast after today. [00:15:49][1.6]

Kelly: [00:15:50] But I feel like there should actually be posted at least once a month, at least the least once a month, only because it’s just like it continues to be like conditioning almost. You know what I mean? The way you would raise a child and where you just like baby, don’t say this, try saying it this way is just it’s just shifting, you know, their whole idea of how they should be as young men. [00:16:19][29.0]

Jameela: [00:16:19] And it’s also taking a sympathetic approach to boys of understanding that they are only a product of their environment. Right. They didn’t choose all of these ways. And a lot of these ways are hurting them like male suicide is the highest it’s ever been, you know, the mental health of men because they aren’t encouraged to talk about how they feel with us or with each other or even admit it to themselves, you know, so they’re in so much pain. And Aisling Bea is come on this podcast before and said the biggest number the patriarchy ever did was really on men because it made them in so much pain. And it’s not to sympathize with them. They should have done this. But but a lot of what they take out on us is a projection of their own, like inner pain and self-hatred, inner insecurity, terror, etc. and it just bleeds out into anyone who’s around them, whatever their gender may be. [00:17:04][44.2]

Kelly: [00:17:04] Absolutely. [00:17:04][0.0]

Jameela: [00:17:06] And and it’s just it’s important to to be firm with them, to be honest with them, to hold them to, you know, accountability, but also to build them up from the inside. I have some of these affirmations that you tell Titan every day. So you ask him to tell you who he is and he responds with, I am a smart black boy. I am wonderful. My superpower is learning. I love that. I am handsome and I am strong. [00:17:33][27.7]

Kelly: [00:17:36] Yes. And he loves at the end when he’s like, I am wonderful. I said, OK, baby, you are wonderful. [00:17:41][5.6]

Jameela: [00:17:44] I think that’s so lovely because there’s this also there’s this. You are you are interrupting the insecurity that can be bred by this world, by just building him up to be his best self. And when we are our best selves, we can show up as our best selves for other people. And be the best for them. And so. [00:18:02][17.9]

Kelly: [00:18:02] Absolutely. [00:18:02][0.0]

Jameela: [00:18:04] It’s also so powerful for a woman to be the person or to be one of the people that is reaffirming him and building up that confidence that he doesn’t fear women, that he looks as a woman, as someone who he shares power with, like you empower him and he tries to empower you back. I think that’s really cool. [00:18:22][18.0]

Kelly: [00:18:23] He is like he’s teaching or is his. Yeah. Is teaching me how to be a mom, you know what I mean? [00:18:28][5.4]

Jameela: [00:18:29] In what way? [00:18:30][0.4]

Kelly: [00:18:30] Well because think about it like when they’re born. They’re introduced to being a son and you’re just introduced to being a mother, you don’t know what you’re doing, you know what I mean? So you are figuring things out as they’re growing up and learning how to. It’s even taught me to be a better communicator because I’ll notice, like early on, I remember there was a situation where I would be frustrated and I wouldn’t say anything. And he’s like, Mom, why did you walk away? I said, Because I just needed to breathe. He was like, well, what did what happened? Like, you know what I mean. Like, what did I what did I do? And I was like. Because I didn’t want to like like go nuts because it was like the hundredth time I told him to do something and I didn’t want to go. I didn’t want to yell and bark at him. But I’m like, dude, I was like, I’ve told you to do this ten times. And I’m really frustrated. I need a minute. And he’s like, OK. You know what I mean? So he lets me have my space and then I come back and I talk to him about it and then he’s like, OK, but P.S. He’s at the time he was four, you know what I mean? So it’s like you’re figuring out how to communicate and how to get things across to what I understand it, but also to where you’re not barking on them. And it’s not to say you’re not going to like f up like you might, like, bark one of the time and they get it, but you still can’t do it like all the time. You understand what I’m saying, like, yeah, I’m learning every day, like and I don’t get it right every time. And I’m but I’m so grateful to him because as much as people are like, oh, it’s parents, you’re the parent and you’re teaching them, they teach you so much about yourself. [00:20:15][104.7]

Jameela: [00:20:16] Like what? What have you what have you learned about yourself? [00:20:18][2.0]

Kelly: [00:20:19] One, that I was a bad communicator and he taught me to be a better one. [00:20:24][4.2]

Jameela: [00:20:24] Do you feel as though you were a bad communicator in other areas of your life? [00:20:27][2.9]

Kelly: [00:20:27] Yes, yes. Yes. Yes, yes. Yes. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. [00:20:31][3.6]

Jameela: [00:20:33] But to be fair, I think women aren’t given women aren’t given the safest space, and you and I will get to this later. But women aren’t given the safe space to share our frustrations. We aren’t often given the vocabulary to share our frustrations. We are certainly not taught to share them with men. And then there’s, you know, an extra layer of you having been a woman in this industry, which was so stifling to women. And like Kelly, you mustn’t share your opinion about anything like now. You’re so open and opinionated about everything, and I fucking love watching you just let loose. But but then also there’s the extra layer of being a black woman and a dark skinned black woman where it’s like if you ever express any kind of vague frustration or she’s aggressive. [00:21:11][38.3]

Kelly: [00:21:12] Or I should you just be happy to be here. [00:21:14][1.9]

Jameela: [00:21:14] Yeah, truly, truly. So I can understand why that is. I can understand where that would come from. But that’s amazing that a four year old can expose that in you. So if you become ever you become a better communicator with everyone since. Do you feel? [00:21:27][13.0]

Kelly: [00:21:29] Yes, but it’s still a process is a process like every day is a process. And yeah, but I’ve definitely become a better communicator for sure. [00:21:38][8.8]

Jameela: [00:21:38] I heard somewhere about a Native American practice in which people would wait one minute to speak after someone else had said something. Now, I don’t know if this is a hundred percent real, but I’ve heard about it from from several different people where the intention behind it was to give enough space after someone had finished speaking, to allow yourself to allow the other person to know that you’re fully digested what they’ve said before you’ve decided what you’re going to say in response, because otherwise, if you respond immediately after someone else, it means you were just waiting to speak the whole time. Now, that’s not fucking realistic. I interrupt everyone in this podcast. I would never be would be ousted from that community immediately. I’d be put in like like a loudmouth jailed. But but I do. But I do think that there are something amazing about the awareness of making sure you hear the other person so that, you know the other person. My God, you have you have seen so much, you have been through so much. Your career has been so obscenely adventurous and exciting. I have some stats that I want to read out about. [00:22:55][77.5]

Kelly: [00:22:56] Are you going to really do that? Come on, no. [00:22:57][1.0]

Jameela: [00:22:59] I’m doing it it’s happening, because I want to talk to you about your journey in this industry. But like. [00:23:04][5.4]

Kelly: [00:23:06] Ok. [00:23:06][0.0]

Jameela: [00:23:07] You’ve been a solo artist for 18 years technically, you have sold over 40 million records as a solo artist and an additional 60 million with Destiny’s Child, you’ve won three Grammys with Destiny’s Child, one Grammy solo that was Dilemma with Nelly, one of the greatest of all time. Four solo albums. You you guys have a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame as a band, and you have an incredible 17 tours under your belt between solo tours and Destiny’s Child. [00:23:32][25.5]

Kelly: [00:23:34] Wow. [00:23:34][0.0]

Jameela: [00:23:35] And you don’t look tired at all. You look like the most rested, beautiful, glowing woman I’ve ever seen, but you have done so much. You have seen so much. You came up in this industry in a time that was. You know, we’ve just seen the the Britney documentary and we’re just starting to really have a conversation about the way that we have dehumanized women in the media, the ways in which we have crossed boundaries. But there were no boundaries to even cross. It was just the wild fucking west. Yeah. And you came up. [00:24:05][30.3]

Kelly: [00:24:06] Free for all. [00:24:06][0.1]

Jameela: [00:24:06] You came up at the beginning of that. Like that kind of like the early days of tabloid culture, of paparazzi harassment, of them realizing that the people don’t want to see the happy, beautiful, glamorous side of celebrity. People want to see the human ugly bits like the the mistakes, the flaws, the this, that and the other that I remember you know, you and I are close in age. And I remember the dawn of that time of we want to we don’t want to celebrate celebrities anymore. We want to fucking expose them. And you were in the biggest girl band of all time. I remember when you guys first, like, kind of really blew up where it was just explosive, like all over the world. You were the biggest girl band of all time. And and how early into that did all these kind of rumors about the band start? Where they start trying to pit you guys against each other or pit you guys against other bands and start to create these kind of rumors that you guys are difficult and all this other shit that I was reading about such young women who are around my age. [00:25:11][65.1]

Kelly: [00:25:12] Yeah, with chaperons, by the way. So how can we demand stuff? We got chaperons know and they’re like, ladies, you guys want to be gracious, you know what I mean? In the sweetest way. And, you know, I do believe that a lot of that is the reason why we’re still here is because we’re gracious and because we are kind. But there are boundaries. And there were so many people, whether it was comparing whether it was, you know, saying that, you know, we put more clothes on. I remember, by the way, I remember actually being checked about our clothes by another female. [00:25:47][34.9]

Jameela: [00:25:49] Yes. [00:25:49][0.0]

Kelly: [00:25:50] Yeah. So it’s just a… and we were 17, 17 years old. And this is what everybody was. This is what everybody is, where you turn on clueless like they got a little crop top. So you don’t, you know, say some about us because our crop tops whatever. So, I mean. [00:26:03][13.7]

Jameela: [00:26:03] There’s also the added those the added offense that three young black women are doing so well, I’m creating such a stir and they’re wearing crop tops. And then there’s all the like, you know, which we now understand maybe more so as a culture of the fact that black women are so hyper sexualized by white people that they find it like they find black sexuality much more threatening and offensive. And so, you know, I look back now on those times and realize how much of a harder time you guys were given sometimes than your sort of white girl group counterparts. [00:26:35][31.6]

Kelly: [00:26:36] Yeah. Shoot I just feel like, period, like if you look at like you were talking about Britney and somebody just showed me this, not a sizzle reel, but like the preview of her, that’s that’s special. And when I saw all of that and like how much she was sexualized, I was like, oh my God, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like some and just saying some of those like outfits like crop tops and things like that, kids were wearing, you know what I mean? So it’s like how other people were taking it as well. They take it to a whole nother disgusting level. Well, we’re just being kids or we’re just being teenagers. [00:27:16][40.1]

Jameela: [00:27:17] What was the experience? Because I was I became well known in a way smaller scale, older than you were when it started. What did it do you remember what it used to feel like being in a room with people? Cause I went back and watched a bunch of your interviews over the over the course of like the last 18 years. And it’s been wonderful to watch the difference in the way that you are treated in an interview and to watch the way that now people actually are interested in your opinion on things and you are treated with respect and like people are excited to have you there rather than you are lucky to be here. And so because you’re here, I own you because you’ve chosen to put yourself in a public position of being in this girl band. So now I can just ask you anything I want. Like some fucking shady shit will get asked to you guys. Yes. Back in the day. And what did that feel like to not be not feel like you were allowed to respond. And I’m not blaming your management or your team or your PR for that. It was just an over. It was an overall feeling amongst women at that time. [00:28:18][61.4]

Kelly: [00:28:20] I think that you got to think about that. At that time, there were girl groups that were coming and going so much, you know what I mean? Think about how many girl groups there were and think about how all of them eventually broke up. So they were just waiting and counting down the days for us to do it so, like, you know. [00:28:36][15.9]

Jameela: [00:28:36] And when band members would band band members were changing, they were just like rubbing their hands together. This is it. They’re going to fall. [00:28:41][5.5]

Kelly: [00:28:42] Exactly. Exactly. They were waiting for us to hate each other, waiting for us to fight, waiting for there to be some sort of tension and force the breakup. And you know what I mean? It was like it was that and like there were female interviewers just as much as there were male interviewers who are egging that shit on. [00:29:02][20.7]

Jameela: [00:29:03] And so how do you as friends, as basically just I mean, you and Beyonce, our basic sisters, but all of you are such a tight knit crew. And how were you guys able to survive that? Because it turns so many people against each other, because you read this stuff, the stuff is everywhere. You start to believe it. You start to wonder, like, did she say that? Did she do this thing on stage, etc.? I’ve I’ve had so many friends in this industry who have fallen out among each other because it’s all been like the flames have just been fanned by the media. Actually, until they actually just sit down in front of each other and realize that they’re both as victims of the same like toxic system, they have no idea. How were you able to withstand that as friends? [00:29:45][42.0]

Kelly: [00:29:46] It’s honest talking. You have to talk about the uncomfortable stuff. [00:29:51][4.3]

Jameela: [00:29:51] Was it challenging? [00:29:52][0.4]

Kelly: [00:29:53] I mean, of course it was. I mean, it would it would be like ludicrous for me to say. No, it was great, I love when people compared me to Michelle and Bee and other females around and, you know, wanted like say crazy things to me and like expect me to say crazy things about like that’s that would be insane. But no, I we had to talk about it, you know what I mean. We had to talk about it. And was it uncomfortable. Of course it was uncomfortable, but it’s I’m so happy that we have each other still, you know what I mean. And we were able to ride through those moments because it makes the relationship that much more amazing, you know what I mean? It makes it that much more rooted. [00:30:37][44.4]

Jameela: [00:30:38] Yeah. You’re forged in fire. [00:30:39][1.0]

Kelly: [00:30:40] Yeah. Yeah. [00:30:40][0.6]

Jameela: [00:30:41] That scenario you survived that together and you’ve you’ve all been through that. And not just you as a band but your generation of witness. Everyone went through it and it feels like we’re literally now in 2021 having that conversation of how wild it was, what we were put through, like how are we supposed, how much healing that needs to be done. [00:31:01][20.1]

Kelly: [00:31:01] Yes. But P.S. I think like we always talk about like go away from here and the bigger conversation is women actually finally taking a stand to not talk about other women. Like like I feel like there’s no way in hell that Meghan Markle should ever see an article. There’s no way that any woman in the public eye should ever see a nasty article written about her period from another woman. It should not happen. She shouldn’t hear a D.J. a VJ anybody, a journalist, anybody. She should never hear her lips on the same line of negativity and mean and evil. She is. Anywhere. She should never see it. Never hear it. Shouldn’t it should not even be spoken of or heard of. And to me that starts with us. [00:31:55][53.6]

Jameela: [00:31:56] Hundreds percent. [00:31:57][0.8]

Kelly: [00:31:57] It starts with us as women. And we have to start like I’ll never forget this interviewer was talking about Mariah Carey and as soon as he started, I just looked at him. I was like I looked at my team. I said interviews this interview’s over, I’m not I don’t like that. Like this is over. [00:32:14][16.8]

Jameela: [00:32:14] Like trying to get you to talk shit about Mariah Carey. [00:32:17][3.1]

Kelly: [00:32:18] Yeah he was saying something negative. And I was like, nah, man. Like, I don’t we don’t play that. I was like, Mariah’s one of my heroes. You won’t sit up here and do the show with me. Absolutely not. Please pack up your shit and please get out of here. [00:32:27][9.2]

Jameela: [00:32:28] They just love a bitch fight. They fucking they love a bitch fight. [00:32:31][3.1]

Kelly: [00:32:32] They love it. They love it. And I just we should not be any we should not be each other’s source of entertainment in a negatively driven way. [00:32:41][9.5]

Jameela: [00:32:42] 100 percent. And listen, I’m someone who has been critical in the past of men and women. I feel like I did it in a really clumsy, gross way when I was younger. But sometimes now as an adult, if I feel like an individual is doing something that harms other women, I will call them out. But I called them out constructively with a hope that they will change, not in a way to maliciously malign them. I think it’s important just to make sure that no one misunderstands that we’re not saying that you cannot call in a woman or criticize another woman like that is OK. It doesn’t make you unfeminist, but do not pull any malicious shit against a woman. If your intention of calling someone out or criticizing them or saying any giving any opinion about them is to drag them down rather than build them back up, even if that is a loving call for them to change something dangerous that they’re doing, then you’re on the wrong side. And this isn’t just about celebrity women. This is just about all of us in our offices, women working in hospitals, girls and schools. And we all need to understand that the reason that we have been like the reason that there is such an appetite for the cat fight, the reason that there is such an appetite for us tearing each other apart and looking at each other as competition is because it does the patriarchy work for them. Like they don’t have to get involved if they teach us how to destroy ourselves, how to self-destruct, they don’t have to spend time destroying us. [00:33:59][76.8]

Kelly: [00:33:59] No, no. [00:34:00][0.6]

Jameela: [00:34:00] We’ll just do it for them. [00:34:01][0.9]

Kelly: [00:34:01] They’ve already set it up. Yes, they’ve already set it up. They’re just waiting for us to just fall in a trap. And when we found the trap, they laugh at us the whole freaking way. [00:34:10][8.3]

Jameela: [00:34:10] I always think that. I always imagined that they’re laughing when they’re watching us actually like like play right into their hands. It’s it’s exhausting. How has being a public figure for such a long time, in particular a black woman with beautiful dark skin, how has this industry and being so publicly held up on a pedestal and scrutinized and adored and and, you know, you have I think you have a fan base that has a name and they called the Rowland Stones, which I didn’t know about. And now I’m going to join because that’s a great fucking name. That’s hysterical. But what impact has living this life, being this public figure, what impact does that had on your mental health, on your life and your self-image, on your own, on your relationship with yourself? Because it’s so dehumanizing sometimes it’s extraordinary, extraordinary privilege. You get to travel the world, meet amazing people, eat great food. Even though they didn’t used to encourage us to eat food when we were younger. But, you know,. [00:35:16][65.4]

Kelly: [00:35:16] We by the way I’m sorry but we still ate food. [00:35:18][2.0]

Jameela: [00:35:19] Yes, that’s true yeah. [00:35:21][1.1]

Kelly: [00:35:21] You already know. [00:35:21][0.0]

Jameela: [00:35:26] But tell me tell me what it’s been like, if you don’t mind. [00:35:30][4.3]

Kelly: [00:35:31] Um. Here’s what I’ll start by saying. It’s already enough when you come into the industry with your own insecurities, you know what I mean, whether that’s whatever you’ve probably whatever you’ve experienced away from the industry when you come into the industry and you have a whole tray full of your issues, whether they’re daddy issues, mommy issues you know what I mean? It’s like. It’s like, here’s this opportunity just, you know, that’s here and. I don’t I don’t know if people necessarily see it on you, but it does like all that stuff feeds into all of your insecurities. You know what I mean? Whether it’s somebody comparing you or you not hearing that you are enough enough to oh, my God, what you do is great or what? You know what I mean? Like, is that like. It, gosh, I’m trying to think of a way to say where it’s just like if your cup in everybody’s cup is not going to be full, but if it’s not full of more like, you know, sowing into you in like this industry is going to take all of it out or just suck all of it out or what’s left of it out. And if you don’t pour into yourself or surround yourself with other people who are pouring into you too you, your cup is going to go empty. [00:37:01][90.5]

Jameela: [00:37:01] You can tell me to go fuck myself right away if I step in in a place that’s too personal? But I say this only because I had such a tricky relationship with my family, you know, my parents when I was younger. And and I think when you go through traumas with them and I know that you’ve spoken before about it and we don’t have to go into it right now, but you had a particularly tricky relationship with your dad. I know that as did your mother and and then you have a very love. You had a very loving relationship with your mother, but she was also doing everything she could to be able to raise you in this world and give you everything you needed. And that meant also sometimes sacrificing time with you to work that hard as a single mother and big love to mother Tina Tina Knowles, for stepping in and supplementing that extra, that extra by the time that you needed. But there is a particular pain in sometimes feeling rejected by a parent or a family member or feeling like you because kids internalize as, oh, I wasn’t good enough in some way. I don’t know if you did that. [00:38:11][70.0]

Kelly: [00:38:12] Yes and it spills over. [00:38:12][0.1]

Jameela: [00:38:12] I don’t know if you did that. But then if you then grow up and enter into an industry where you are constantly made to fear rejection, being abandoned. [00:38:20][8.1]

Kelly: [00:38:20] Yes yes yes yes. [00:38:20][0.0]

Jameela: [00:38:20] Being told you’re not good enough, it’s like being re traumatized all over again. [00:38:24][4.2]

Kelly: [00:38:25] Over again. Absolutely. And you don’t realize it’s a trigger until you get older. And you’re like, oh, that’s why I said that like that to this person or the you know what I mean? Like, I know what my triggers are now. And I think that when you figure out what those are, you’re able to try to not control them, but try to. [00:38:46][21.1]

Jameela: [00:38:49] Manage them. [00:38:49][0.5]

Kelly: [00:38:50] Thank you. Manage them. That’s a much better word, but better manage them as best you can because you don’t want to go throwing up on everybody your own drama, you know what I mean? It’s just it’s not fair. But. [00:39:02][11.8]

Jameela: [00:39:03] Sometimes I like to throw up some of my drama on other people, but that’s just me. I know that’s not really acceptable. Sometimes it feels really good. [00:39:14][10.9]

Kelly: [00:39:14] You can’t do that. [00:39:15][0.7]

Jameela: [00:39:16] You know, and I’m leanring I’m learning I’m trying it’s fucking hard. But but truly, like, sometimes I wonder why any of us even got into this industry, you know what I mean? Sometimes I wonder what it is that makes people even go towards. Obviously, that’s a part of it that’s like I love performing. Like you loved singing. What was that? There’s a note that your mother told you that she found that you’d written of I want to grow up and be a singer in a red dress. [00:39:40][24.6]

Kelly: [00:39:41] Yes. Yes. [00:39:41][0.7]

Jameela: [00:39:43] That’s so cute. How old were you when you wrote that note. [00:39:44][1.1]

Kelly: [00:39:45] I don’t know. I think I just learned to write. [00:39:47][1.8]

Jameela: [00:39:47] I think you’re in kindergarten. Yeah, indeed. So there’s obviously a part of like I just want to do what I love and be able to only do that. But there’s also a part of me that wonders why do we why do we put ourselves through that? Why do we put ourselves up for it? Part of it, we never were never prepared. Yeah. No one ever tells you what it’s going to be. [00:40:05][17.6]

Kelly: [00:40:05] You don’t know what it’s going to be like. And as much as you see all these different stories you like, I won’t live that or I won’t do that. And that’s not going to happen to me. All that shit happened to you. And then you’re like, how do I get through this? You know what I mean? But you’ve already had the you know, all the warnings, whatever those are. But they all come in their own form of craziness in your world, you know what I mean? It’s very specific and particular to your traumas and how they play out. So yeah. [00:40:35][29.7]

Jameela: [00:40:35] Yeah. But it is like it is an odd thing. I’m always questioning this myself. I’m just like, is there a part of me that’s trying to fill a void of love with straight with the love of strangers, with the respect of strangers? Because I didn’t feel respected or protected. So now I’m trying to build that. I don’t know. It’s just something it’s something I’m always just wondering about. I’m not really asking you to answer that. I’m just sort of musing. [00:40:54][18.7]

Kelly: [00:40:55] No, but I understand what you’re saying because I asked I’ve asked myself that before. Yeah. And I remember I did that with music and most recently with this latest project. I remember I was just wanting like, I’m sorry, before this latest project, I was like, well, I just want to make it to where is this? And it’s going to do this. And people are going to do this when they hear it and didn’t like me for this. And I’m like, now this is like I just want to make great music. I don’t give a shit what you think. And I was so happy that I got to that point because I stressed myself out with every other thought, you know what I mean. Then when it just came to like making music, that feels good to me. That’s all that matters. [00:41:33][38.2]

Jameela: [00:41:33] Also, you would like made to feel like you really had something to prove. [00:41:36][2.7]

Kelly: [00:41:37] Well, yes, after you come from Destiny’s Child. Shit, like, are you kidding me? It was it was so because it was just so much it was here the whole time. And I’m like, oh, like the the pressure of that was a lot. I’ll never forget when we were just talking about like solo adventures or whatever, and I was like, oh my God. Like that was daunting to me because I was like, well how many number ones have we had? That sounds insane. I’m sorry, but it’s like I need another one. I should have another number one. What am I going to do? How am I going to do that in the studio? Who am I going to work with? How am I going to like? It’s just so many questions you ask yourself. And then when you don’t when you don’t do it, it’s just that much farther from like you’re like, well, I didn’t do it. And they’re going to say this about me. And. [00:42:34][56.6]

Jameela: [00:42:34] You’re investing your happiness in the wrong place, yeah like. [00:42:37][2.3]

Kelly: [00:42:37] Yes and P.S. when they smell that on you. They will completely to play with it. [00:42:43][5.3]

Jameela: [00:42:43] Who’s they? [00:42:43][0.2]

Kelly: [00:42:44] Media! Media, people, disgusting, miserable people we ain’t ever seen what I’ve seen in my lifetime, but they want to talk about me and the shit I haven’t seen, you know what I mean? So it’s just like it’s just insane to me. You’ve got these people that are saying all these crazy things. And my husband said that he was like, man, they wish they saw a quarter of what you see. [00:43:08][24.0]

Jameela: [00:43:08] What kind of crazy things were people saying about you? Because I feel as though I’ve only ever seen people say, I mean, when you were in the band, I see a bunch of shit being said all the time because the band members were changing, etc.. But but I post that I only I only know of loving stuff that I’ve ever seen about you, like everyone loves you. [00:43:25][16.9]

Kelly: [00:43:26] No I’m I’m talking about comparing like they would compare our successes. You know what I mean? So it that part of it was just like crazy. That was crazy. [00:43:37][10.8]

Jameela: [00:43:37] What would you say has been the biggest struggle in this in this industry for you when it comes to your relationship with yourself? [00:43:43][5.9]

Kelly: [00:43:47] Mm I’d say. Being being happy. Like, completely. Completely happy with what I feel like I brought to the table, like as far as like music was concerned like that, that really used to bother me. It really did. I don’t know if I ever said that out loud, but like, it really used to bother me that I didn’t, like, have like this. And I had so many of them thats whats always tripping me out. [00:44:19][32.5]

Jameela: [00:44:20] I mean, you had loads. I read it out. [00:44:22][1.4]

Kelly: [00:44:22] But that’s what I’m saying like that, it was like a point in time where, like my like, if people would make me feel like they and I and I let it and it wasn’t even necessarily them, I let them make me feel like that. You can’t blame them necessarily. I let them make me feel like that. Because then I could I could be real gangster and be like go fuck yourself, you know what I mean, and just say that, like, I’m not even bothered by that and really not be bothered by it, but because of, like, that stuff that we talked about, like with parents and things like that, I think that that fuels all of that stuff to make it bigger than what it really was, you know. [00:45:01][39.2]

Jameela: [00:45:02] Yeah. You’re saying you’re saying that as our old trauma’s are what makes us more vulnerable to this sort of like to people making you feel rejected. Not good enough. You’re more open to that. You’re more receptive to it because. Because it confirms the bias against yourself you already have internally. [00:45:16][14.4]

Kelly: [00:45:17] Yes. Yes. I think that’s the perfect word. You’re more vulnerable to it. That’s perfectly said. [00:45:21][4.0]

Jameela: [00:45:29] I also want to talk a little bit about because you and I spoke about this before, about your journey with your self-image, like your in fact, you and I probably only have each other’s phone numbers because we met in such an intimate way where I feel like at one o’clock in the morning at a party standing by a food stand, I, I caught you talking shit about the way you look in some way or like making fun of yourself or worrying about my eating something. And I fucking didn’t know you at all. Like, totally like I love you so much in awe of you and had the fucking balls on me. I had the ovaries on me rather to I’m going to go say that because we had those no I had the nerve to just give you a lecture at 1:00 a.m. like New Year’s Eve or something or Christmas Day of. [00:46:25][55.9]

Kelly: [00:46:26] No it was New Year’s. [00:46:26][0.0]

Jameela: [00:46:27] It was it was New Year’s Eve about how you should be how you should respect your beautiful self and body. And the reason that I think I felt so compelled to do it that night when we met and you and I have discussed this before, so I don’t feel like I’m bamboozling you or something. But it’s because I interviewed you like 10 years before and, you know, obviously you would never remember me. I barely remember myself back then. But during that interview, you had sort of body shamed yourself, like and you and I was looking at you and you had the like the most conventionally perfect physique I’d ever seen. And I remember thinking back then like, oh, my God, what is she seeing? Why can she not see what I can see? And then to hear it happened again 10 years later, I was like, that’s it. I’m not fucking tolerating this shit anymore from this woman. I was like, I’m going to make her love herself at 1am on New Years Eve. And you were so gracious and receptive to me. And you. [00:47:31][63.8]

Kelly: [00:47:32] I was. But you were right shoot. [00:47:33][1.1]

Jameela: [00:47:34] But how the fuck did this happen? Like, how could someone as like effervescently beautiful as your ethereal like it’s like you’re not real right now you’re on Zoom and you’re fucking like shining through the zoom in the most like Jesus. And so I don’t understand but but I can imagine what happened to make someone like you or anyone really. But really just like considering you’re on this podcast right now, what chipped away at that sense of beauty? At that sense of like self-confidence, that sense of like whether or not you find yourself beautiful or not, like why the need to verbalize a dislike of oneself, where does that come from in you? I know. I know where it came from in me. It came from everything around me that was messaging me that, like, South Asians aren’t beautiful. We’re not the hero, we’re not the love interest, we’re the punch line. [00:48:32][57.7]

Kelly: [00:48:33] You see for me I feel like. It’s so crazy because like in black culture, there was a time we talk we’ve had these conversations where, you know, it’s like, oh, she’s the darker skinned girl, like it was all of that, you know, that that was the first thing I remember planted to just in my mind all the time. [00:48:56][22.5]

Jameela: [00:48:56] Who would you would you hear who would you hear that from? Are you talking about back at school? [00:48:59][3.0]

Kelly: [00:48:59] You just heard that all around you. You just heard that all around. It didn’t matter where it was from. You heard it. And it was a thing, you know what I mean? It was actually a thing. And, you know, so between here and there, just hearing just. People talk about, you know. Yeah, the darker skinned girl, like not being as or she’s cute, but she’s not as pretty as or, you know, then getting into it, being older and just being self aware of yourself and like, you know, that you still hearing that same thing. You’re still hearing this message and you’re seeing it on media. You know what I mean? [00:49:42][43.0]

Jameela: [00:49:43] Oh, I know exactly what you mean. This is like when I this is like me having, like an eating disorder throughout my teens and then becoming a public figure and then gaining some weight and getting fat shamed and having that confirm my greatest fears as a fucking teenager, just being like everything you thought that if you gained weight, you would be shamed, humiliated, demonized, and then for it to actually happen in real time, I was like, oh, my God. Everything I feared back then about the way I was being perceived was true. And it’s been confirmed in writing on global headlines. And so, you know, you being the darker skinned member of a girl band and that then being brought, I mean, I don’t remember that. But I also think that the British have a much more cowardly racism. So I think that they’re less likely to come out there and say it. [00:50:35][52.3]

Kelly: [00:50:37] Yeah, I mean, some stuff some stuff happens to where like when you were at a photo shoot and they just blatantly tell you, I don’t have your color. Like, that’s what the you know, you don’t you know what I mean? Like this. And people have experiences. I’m not the only person that has this has everybody has the story. [00:50:56][19.3]

Jameela: [00:50:56] Or they use stronger lights so they don’t have the right light or they don’t know how to shoot like skin or they lighten your skin and photographs afterwards. [00:51:04][7.3]

Kelly: [00:51:04] Girl or or you come out pink sometimes because maybe they change it a little bit in post. It’s just the craziest thing to where when you look at magazines or, you know, it’s just like this is what beauty looks like. I would remember saying that. And it was like three white women on there and they all blond. And it’s just like, wow, like what then where does my beauty fit? Where do I see myself? I said, Thank God for Whitney Houston. Thank God for Janet Jackson. You know, thank God for these brown, beautiful women that I saw in these high places that were doing the most amazing things because I never would have thought, you know what I mean? [00:51:44][39.2]

Jameela: [00:51:44] You can’t say you can’t be it. [00:51:45][1.1]

Kelly: [00:51:46] Exactly. [00:51:46][0.0]

Jameela: [00:51:47] 100 percent. And and I know that you’ve spoken before about Tina Knowles being a huge influence on you at a young age where where you’ve said that when you were a teenager, she would be out like sunning herself and you wouldn’t want to go out in the sun because the fear of getting even darker was too much for you. And she was one of the people to interrupt that thought process and say, hey, hey, your chocolatey-ness. I think she called it. [00:52:11][24.4]

Kelly: [00:52:11] Yes, you she’s like you’re chocolate baby. Like this you chocolate baby. You are perfect. Like, she would start all of that conversation and start. [00:52:19][7.8]

Jameela: [00:52:21] And you said. Yeah. You said she had art in her house that had women of all different shades of brown and black and and she celebrated and she herself is a fairly light skinned woman. But I but but for her to celebrate that in you at such a formative age I think I think is really beautiful. And I’m glad that you had some of that at home which helped you survive the industries like inherent colorism. And now you are a role model for young black women everywhere, but in particular those with darker skin who are able to see themselves in you. And you’ve received those letters from girls like throughout your entire career. And I see the way that people talk about you on the Internet and on Twitter and what you mean to them and the fact that you write songs about it now, about dark skin and and about women loving themselves and embracing themselves and what a role model you want to be for young women. And I think that that’s great. How did you get to this place of self acceptance? Because now that we’re having a conversation of colorism, more in the mainstream really, again, only in the last year where even with the discussion around black lives, there’s also like conversations happening internally among the black community, like I say on Twitter, et cetera, where suddenly now the conversation is like, OK, now let’s talk about we understand white privilege. Now let’s understand light skin privilege and people are having to investigate. And you know and understand that among themselves. Where have you gotten to deal with it? [00:53:56][94.8]

Kelly: [00:53:57] I mean, for me, I just. I just I honestly want to be one of those people that’s just like happy, you know what I mean? And I know that comparing myself did not make me happy and, you know, even not celebrating another woman did not make me happy, like I wanted to shift that, you know what I mean? And it’s not that I ever wanted anything bad for any woman at all, but it was just like I was comparing myself, you know what I mean? And in comparing yourself, like is other stuff that comes with it. And I just I don’t I don’t want that. And I just said I just want to be the best version of myself. [00:54:40][43.3]

Jameela: [00:54:41] It’s also it’s also really dangerous, I think, to compare yourself, because it then teaches you inherently that there is a finite amount, that the opportunity, the happiness, that love, that sex, that whatever, that these things aren’t infinite. It puts like it puts the ceiling a cap on how much you’re allowed to have, which is a which is not true. It’s and it’s in our heads. We’ve been told by misogyny that especially for women. And then another layer for a woman of color, then a further layer for a black woman like and then a further layer for a dark skinned black woman. It’s like you are your ceiling is made lower and lower and lower and lower. [00:55:16][35.4]

Kelly: [00:55:17] So true. [00:55:17][0.1]

Jameela: [00:55:17] We are told that the ceiling is lower. And so when you compare yourself to another person, then you are telling yourself, oh, there isn’t abundance. Like we can’t all have a piece of the pie. [00:55:25][8.2]

Kelly: [00:55:26] Yes. Yes. And then you actually start moving like that. [00:55:31][4.8]

Jameela: [00:55:32] And shrinking yourself. Do you feel like you shrunk yourself? [00:55:34][2.6]

Kelly: [00:55:35] I think that at times for sure, I shrunk myself. For sure. [00:55:39][3.4]

Jameela: [00:55:40] Well, you’re not doing that now. I love that. [00:55:41][1.3]

Kelly: [00:55:43] No. I don’t feel I need to. Absolutely. And, you know what, having having my son made me even more aware of it. I was like, shoot. I don’t want him to see that and feel like it’s OK or even find himself a partner that does the same thing. No. [00:56:03][19.9]

Jameela: [00:56:03] As in like what find yourself a partner that has a problem with their own esthetic or skin color? [00:56:08][5.1]

Kelly: [00:56:08] Yes, exactly. So if he hears me say like pick myself apart or anything, which thank God he hasn’t, like, he’s going to go find somebody like that. No! [00:56:18][9.7]

Jameela: [00:56:20] That’s that’s so true. That’s so true. [00:56:23][3.1]

Kelly: [00:56:24] Where their first example of everything. So like, if I’m in a mir- like he, he saw his dad like try to like hit a golf ball because Tim’s obsessed with golf. We all know this. But he saw him his dad tried to like this golf ball and he’s like ugh I’m trash. I said, if you say that one more time, he’s going to hear you say he’s going to call himself trash. Do you know Titan went outside like a week, two weeks later, and he’s like, oh, he’s trash mommy. I went into Tim’s office I said, go say something positive about yourself when you hit this damn golf ball, I said, like, I’m the greatest golfer ever or something. But funny enough, Titan says, Oh, Mommy, I’m a better golfer than my dad. [00:57:08][43.8]

Jameela: [00:57:08] Oh, that’s great. That’s great. [00:57:10][1.4]

Kelly: [00:57:11] Cos daddy’s trash. [00:57:11][0.1]

Jameela: [00:57:16] I massively appreciate how much you use your platform now to empower young women. And I also think it’s very cool that you speak out about the fact that we need more men doing the same thing. You know, we’ve got you want to be a role model in particular to all women and to all people, but in particular to young black women. You want to reaffirm their sense of self and their sense of self love and dignity. And you feel as though I might be putting words in your mouth and you can correct me there. But I definitely feel like we don’t have enough men in any community who are taking it upon themselves to use their platforms to explain themselves to boys, to investigate themselves publicly, to talk about their feelings, to to be a real role model, not just a role model for how many what kind of car you can have or how much money you can make, what kind of business you can start. And again, I’m not singling out any community fuck knows, like, we have so much violence in India towards women and no, no, almost none of the men, the public men speak out about it or speak about consent or speak about the need to to interrupt violence against women, like the the statistics on sexual violence are just out of control. And none of these male public figures and one of the things I most say is where are the men? Like, why are the women having to protest this on our own? Like, where are the men saying this isn’t right? Because people listen to public figures, little boys, little girls that we idolize them. We listen to them way more than we listen to their parents. [00:58:48][92.3]

Kelly: [00:58:50] Yeah, I think that a lot of a lot of folks and I have been guilty of this, like the way cool looks. [00:58:57][7.8]

Jameela: [00:59:00] What do you mean? [00:59:00][0.3]

Kelly: [00:59:00] Like cool, like like cool like, oh, well, no, that doesn’t bother me. But you’re in your own hell in your hotel room or. No, I’m perfectly happy with who I am. But you’re actually in your own hell, like you know what I mean. Like, it’s you look like everything’s not bothering you and everything seems fine. But I just feel like it’s like I feel like talking about that. It’s starting to push its way into culture now. And just being your most authentic, honest self, self, oh I’m self love, I’m self aware I’m the self self, self, self, self. How how much of that are you really being like and are you that much self aware to where you can actually help someone else be just as aware of themselves? You know what I mean? Like, you have to if you want to see that, you have to really actually be it. [00:59:51][51.2]

Jameela: [00:59:52] Yeah. And we definitely need more of that from men. I would love to see that. [00:59:56][4.3]

Kelly: [00:59:56] We do. [00:59:56][0.2]

Jameela: [00:59:57] It would heal them. It’s not for us it’s for them. And then we benefit because then they’re dealing with their shit and. [01:00:04][7.2]

Kelly: [01:00:04] Well, I mean, think about it like women save the day anyway. Think about what just happened in this election. I just I think that they’re actually looking to us as much as they don’t want to give us credit for it. But yeah, they’re looking to us to to help. But it’s also like the same thing that they admire is the same thing that they’ll eventually be like, really pissed about like. [01:00:27][22.6]

Jameela: [01:00:28] Well, I think yeah, I’ve spoken about that before, even in that even in that time speech that you mentioned earlier that you really liked, I don’t know if anyone else remembered that, but there was a time. [01:00:36][7.6]

Kelly: [01:00:37] It’s love, love, love, love,. [01:00:39][2.0]

Jameela: [01:00:40] I’m joking I’m just being stupid, but I but in in that speech, I think I talk about the fact that we are the I, I, I’m sad. And I fear that men fear women in that they fear that they are redundant towards us. And the more independent we become, the less purpose they think they have for us that they are just a seed now before they used to be the one to go out and forage or they used to be the one to protect us. But now we have mace and tasers and walls and locks and we know how to walk without keys between our fingers, which we should never have to do, and fuck this world for it. But, you know, we have our own jobs. Some of us, you know, in some countries, most of us are allowed to drive. We we have that independence in the more independent we become because we don’t ever stress the importance of friendship between men and women. but you know that I bang on about this all the time, bore my bore my listeners. But it is something that I really do feel. And I feel like if we look at it that way, then we can empathize and be like, OK, shit, we need as a culture. This isn’t just on women as a culture. We need to highlight the importance of friendship. Like, I love the fact that your son has little girlfriends who aren’t being positioned only as a love interest, you know, I mean, he was on a grilled cheese sandwich date, like, you know, like, they they’re building an actual friendship. He’s going to know he’s got value to her beyond just being able to do everything for her because she’s so disempowered. They want to keep us disempowered so that they feel that they have a purpose. And that’s sad. [01:02:09][89.3]

Kelly: [01:02:10] Yes. Yes. Yes. [01:02:11][1.4]

Jameela: [01:02:11] Wouldn’t it be nice for them to feel like they could just live for themselves and we can live for ourselves and we can all come together and just party? [01:02:15][4.3]

Kelly: [01:02:16] Yes, yes, yes, yes. [01:02:18][1.6]

Jameela: [01:02:18] Which is the most, like, simplistic way I can put it. But that is how I feel. You’re a joy. You’re a real joy. And I and I have only gotten to know you so recently in my life, but I cannot tell you how kind and warm and loving a woman Kelly is and everything you see on her social media, all of that light and love that comes out, that is true to the person that she really is. And I feel very, very lucky to know you. I’m very lucky to have had you come on this podcast and tell me about your fucking ridiculous life. Like it’s so surreal. It’s so surreal and weird. [01:03:02][44.1]

Kelly: [01:03:04] Oh. [01:03:04][0.0]

Jameela: [01:03:04] What you’ve kind of come through and so spectacular. And I’m so glad that on the other side of it, it’s not often that someone can maintain their head on their shoulder. So kudos to you and to your immediate support network for keeping you strong and sane through a really tricky time to be a woman in the public eye. [01:03:23][18.1]

Kelly: [01:03:24] Thank you. And it honestly, it was women, I think for my Mama T, I thank God for Angie. I think for B I thank God for did I say Mama T? For Solange for Michelle. I just thank God for them. They’ve literally been like the closest women to me, you know what I mean. And, and then to like branch out and get more of a female bubble. And I’m just grateful. I have remarkable women in my life and they iron sharpens iron. You try to be honest with each other. So. [01:04:00][36.2]

Jameela: [01:04:00] That’s great. You did forget to mention me, but that’s fine. That’s fine. That’s fine. That’s fine. I heard the list I was like, she’s going to say no I’m joking literally we met like four times um I’m I’m, I’m just. Yeah, I think you’re a wonderful role model for young women. So, Kelly, before you leave me, will you just tell me, what do you weigh? [01:04:23][23.0]

Kelly: [01:04:24] I weigh my relationship and being able to have a lasting, loving marriage. I weigh embracing my body in the place that it is right now, even after I just had this child. Oh, gosh, these are good oh, I’m loving this. Oh, I weigh I weigh new opportunities, um, and being completely bold and walking into them. [01:04:54][29.8]

Jameela: [01:04:56] And you weigh going out of your way to raise two little boys to become amazing and important men in other people’s lives. [01:05:05][9.0]

Kelly: [01:05:06] Yes, I would say that like a hell of a whole. [01:05:09][3.2]

Jameela: [01:05:12] Well, I’m glad that I told you off at one o’clock in the morning at that party because it’s been really fun to get to know you since and I can’t wait for this fucking pandemic to be over so I can say hello and see your baby. [01:05:27][15.2]

Kelly: [01:05:28] I know. And you can bring the puppy because Titan wants a dog so bad. But I’m like, nah player. You have to learn some responsibility first before we think about getting you a dog. [01:05:38][10.0]

Jameela: [01:05:39] One hundred percent. Yeah, you can definitely. You can. You can you can borrow mine happily. All right. Well, loads of love to you. Have a wonderful day and. [01:05:48][9.1]

Kelly: [01:05:49] Thank you. [01:05:49][0.0]

Jameela: [01:05:49] And a good rest as a as a mom and a as a new mom in a pandemic. [01:05:52][3.4]

Kelly: [01:05:54] Thank you, b. [01:05:54][0.5]

Jameela: [01:05:56] You’re a joy. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Aaron Finnegan and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music that you’re hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. I really appreciate it and amps me up to bring on better and better guests. Lastly, at I Weigh we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at 1-818-660-5543. Or email us what you say at IWeighpodcast@Gmail.com. It’s not in pounds and kilos, so please don’t send that. It’s all about you just you know, you’ve been on the Instagram anyway, and now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners. [01:06:46][50.5]

Listener: [01:06:50] I weigh my smile and my humor, I weigh being a great partner and a good daughter and a great granddaughter and a nice sister, I weigh being a good, compassionate person who has nothing but good intentions for our world. I weigh being myself no matter who is around, and I weigh my journey to self-love. [01:06:50][0.0]

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