EP. 221 — Modern Motherhood with Paloma Faith

Jameela: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jamila Jamil, a podcast against shame. I hope you are, not even going to say well, I hope you are managing to even hold yourself together in 50 million pieces. Well done if you got up today and even if you didn’t, well done for opening your eyes because shit is bleak, and I’m very proud of you, and I want you to know that. Um, I wanted to bring you a galvanizing and energizing episode, and I think I’ve done just that because I have truly the most galvanizing and energizing woman in my industry. One of the most inspiring women, to me at least, in the world. I love her so much. She is a hugely celebrated and decorated UK singer, she’s a songwriter, she’s an actor, she’s a TV personality and a judge. And now she’s an author of a fucking brilliant book called MILF. Her name is Paloma Faith, and if you are not lucky enough to yet know her, I’m so pleased to be able to introduce you to her, to her work, to her opinions, to her thoughts, [00:01:00] to her wonderful pixie fairy voice. She is truly one of a kind. I’ve known her my whole career, and to be honest, before I really found my voice, she used to scare the shit out of me. Not in a bad way, in a sort of, I’m in love with her, I’m in awe of her, and I don’t know what she’s going to do or say, scary way, because she’s just so authentic and is herself, the same version of herself in every single scenario, whether it’s privately in a room together or on live television in front of 50, 000 people. Um, she’s just totally one of a kind, a totally unique talent, a totally unique voice, and a totally unique human. And in this episode, we discuss her book, it’s called MILF, and it’s largely about the existence of not just motherhood, but life leading up to motherhood, girlhood, uh, being a woman in an industry like ours, being a woman in this world, the truth about relationships, the truth about the difficult parts of being a parent, and co parenting, and [00:02:00] the sledgehammer that children can take to your relationship. It’s such an important read, not just for women, it’s but for everyone because there are so few books that are so raw as to the true experience and frustration and nuance of existing as a mother and if anything it’s everyone else who needs to fucking read it so they can know what everyone’s going through because a lot of the mums are going, yes I know this is my experience but I do think a lot of people will feel so heard and seen by this book. It’s so classic of Paloma to again find a new way to say the thing that isn’t being said enough. She just refuses to succumb to stigmas and she always has in every area she was one of the earliest people talking about the sexism in our industry before anyone was having that conversation especially in the UK, and she’s now talking about how that sexism goes on all the way into one of the most fundamental roles in the world, which is that of parenting.

And I’ve obviously been [00:03:00] vocal in this podcast about the fact that I don’t want children, and I’ve had a lot of people on who also don’t want children, who advocate for that, but I did want to make sure that I’m catering to the mums who listen to this podcast, who write me the most beautiful letters. This episode is largely for you, but it’s also for everyone else to know what the fuck you are all dealing with. This chat is so open. It’s so raw, it’s so important. She’s so funny, she’s so cool, she’s so bold, and she has, from the first day I met her, inspired me to be a bolder person, and I feel so lucky to have had this chat with her. She does not disappoint, she’s just, in the best possible way, a fucking wrecking ball, wrecking the patriarchy, one true statement at a time. This is the excellent, Paloma Faith.

Well, if it isn’t Paloma bloody Faith. [00:04:00] Hello, how are you?

Paloma: Hello.

Jameela: I was so, so excited when I found out that you’d written a book because the way you have put things both publicly and also privately to me as a friend has always been so empowering and just the right dose of pissed off. And I’m so glad that you’ve put that all down, uh, no longer just wrapped within a song but actually as a sort of manifesto for women everywhere, women of all ages, this book, it feels as though it’s directed at. But there’s a special, obviously, uh, a special attention much needed for the much neglected topic of motherhood. So before we get into the book, tell me, how are you, how have you been?

Paloma: Well, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve come out of the back of this book is about and my album is actually about the biggest life change that I’ve ever had. So, um, I broke up with my children’s dad after almost a decade together and found myself a single parent mum after, [00:05:00] you know, the longest relationship I’d ever had. I think I’ve been quite intolerant as a person and intolerable for my whole life.

Jameela: Why? Why? How could you possibly be intolerable?

Paloma: I don’t know. I just think relationships are really hard, especially for someone who’s not willing to compromise due to sort of patriarchal social expectation. And I think that’s really difficult. And I think it played a huge part in the demise of my relationship. I think that the reason why it broke down was because I wasn’t really happy with the way that I felt that everyone, not just him as an individual, but expected me to sort of take on the full weight of motherhood as a duty, as soon as we became parents at the same time. There was like moments, for example, when he’d say, I don’t know what to do. I wish I could help you. And I was like, well, why should I know what to do? What makes it different for me? And so [00:06:00] I think it broke down our relationship. And I think I, I would love a relationship. I love being in one, and obviously I’m also just want to flag that I am talking about heteronormative. I’m not trying to like blanket bomb everyone. I’m sure that like non heteronormative relationships do it way better than us. But, um, but I just think in my personal experience, I would love a truly balanced relationship with someone who acknowledges the imbalance. And I think that’s really difficult because patriarchy is not just perpetuated by men, it’s perpetuated by us as women, and it’s perpetuated by heterosexual people. It’s perpetuated by all of humanity because it’s so ingrained that we don’t even really realize what’s happening. And I read this book, um, called Motherhood: A Manifesto by Elaine Glazer. And I was [00:07:00] reading it and it was like, it’s like a feminist manifesto about parenting, and I was reading it and sort of shouting, oh my God, like out loud. It’s so true. I do that. And I’m responsible for the fact that I took on too much or that, you know, I perpetuated that burden. And I’m sort of like trying to do work on myself as to how to even unlearn the taking on of too much.

Jameela: Yeah.

Paloma: Or like my hyper, my hyper independence actually at times being detrimental to me.

Jameela: 100%.

Paloma: Because I was raised by feminists to be hyper independent. My mum’s first generation feminist. And she was like, you’ve got to keep your independence. It’s the greatest gift you could do. Never rely on a man, all these things. And so what happened to me was I became so hyper independent, so high achieving that I’m not sure that I was able to even make space for someone to help me. [00:08:00] And so my new thing is that now I’m on the dating scene, as soon as someone wants to split the bill with me, I’m running.

Jameela: Right.

Paloma: Just on the first date. I could handle it in future, but on the first date, I’m like, no.

Jameela: Do you pay first, and then wait, do you pay first and then run, or do you do a runner for the whole bill?

Paloma: I split the bill and pay my bit and then I’m like, don’t want to see this person again.

Jameela: Right, right, right, right, right.

Paloma: The least you could do is pay my bit, my dinner.

Jameela: Yeah. Um, okay, so, so when you’re talking about this imbalance for anyone who hasn’t had a baby yet or maybe who’s pregnant and with someone who, you know, is promising they’re going to do their fair share, etc, which even then is rare. What do you mean?

Paloma: There is a kind of innate unchangeable and impossible to change thing that the baby does grow inside the woman’s body and then we provide food for it. But it’s about acknowledging [00:09:00] that and realizing that we are doing more by default as the fathers and also trying to, so I’ve had two children and on the first one I was very connected to the baby to the point where I actually perpetuated that and the baby was clingy to me and still to this day is constantly getting in my bed at night and always wanted mom and I breastfed and all these things. And then with the second one, I was like, I can’t do that again. I have a much more independent second child who’s capable of being looked after by many people and it’s got the whole village vibe about that way that my second daughter’s been raised and she’s very secure, like as a person. She’s just like, yeah, I’ll go with this person if you tell me to, I trust you, I trust your opinion. She’s three, by the way, so she talks like that. She’s like Stewie.

Jameela: Sorry, do you remember when [00:10:00] she was just born and you and I were in a massive earthquake together?

Paloma: Yes!

Jameela: And both your kids were upstairs in bed and we felt the whole house shaking and then we looked outside and I’ll never forget this, you were staying in a house that had a pool and there was like a big inflatable flamingo in the pool and suddenly, I think the moment I realized it was an earthquake is when the flamingo started jumping up and down in the pool and I was like, what the fuck is happening? Like the whole pool was moving. I thought it was gonna come apart and open up.

Paloma: We all survived.

Jameela: And we both, and we, we, we did survive. We’re here. We’re not broadcasting from the afterlife, but the speed at which, uh, in a shaking house, we both like bolted up those stairs for the kids. Um, but I really saw like your mama bear come out in that moment.

Paloma: My children!

Jameela: Yeah, exactly. You were ready to fight an earthquake. It was incredible.

Paloma: So yeah, so my second one’s very independent and [00:11:00] it’s because she’s been sort of exposed to loads and loads of people, and I did that from the beginning. It was really important and actually think that that was a lesson for me in that I could, people could help if you make the children feel relaxed about it.

Jameela: Yeah. It’s also, it’s also, by the way, it’s a very specifically British and like American trait for people to go off on their own and

Paloma: To just be so isolated.

Jameela: Totally.

Paloma: And it’s so lonely. And I got postpartum depression. I was depressed. I, I like thought I’d never have a life again. I thought I’d never get out of the hole I got into. It’s all in my book, but it’s like a very isolating experience, but I do think that everyone’s responsible and I was very unsatisfied with the support that I had from my partner.

Jameela: What do you think men should be doing?

Paloma: Um, I think they should be able to observe and empathize. The thing [00:12:00] is, as well, is like, it becomes another job if you have to delegate everything, so initiative is just absolutely wonderful. When someone observes you doing the same repetitive action day in, day out, day in, day out, it means that you have to do it and someone’s got to do it. So it would be nice not to say, can you da, da, da, da, da, cause now I’m PA-ing this person.

Jameela: Mm-Hmm.

Paloma: On how to be a parent.

Jameela: Well, ’cause it contributes to the mental load, right? It’s like you’re still having to use your executive function to make, make sure something

Paloma: Yeah, it’s this silent mental load that you’re thinking about everything all the time. Like is this done? This check, mental checklist, and then you just wanna be like actually with someone who goes, I’ve done that thing, I’ve done that thing, I’ve done that thing, I’ve done that thing. You can do the rest. And you’re like, this would be amazing. This is bliss. I’ve met a few fathers who say they parent 50/ 50. And I think that some do. I’ve seen it.

Jameela: Yeah, we had, um, Jenna Fischer was on [00:13:00] this podcast and she, uh, she was telling us that her husband, straight out the gate, was like, I’m gonna do all the chores for the first, like, at least six months while your body heals from what you just did, because I had loads of fun while you were pregnant, and I was out drinking and like partying and staying up late and not looking after myself.

Paloma: That’s so wonderful.

Jameela: And so he was like, you will never see a shitty nappy. Never. Um, and that was, that felt, uh, in the moment, like I was, you know, I think everyone had to resist the urge to be like, what a king, but actually that’s just fair.

Paloma: It should be the standard.

Jameela: Yeah, I saw you on an interview recently being like, I’m done with congratulating dads for doing the things that mums do.

Paloma: Yeah, we’re not clapping for that anymore. But, we’re just not applauding it. And it’s great, it’s, it is great, but it’s, what should be done.

Jameela: Yeah.

Paloma: So move on because we don’t want to give him too much accolade.

Jameela: No, exactly. Haha!

So in this, in this book, you are exploring motherhood, you’re exploring [00:14:00] postnatal depression, which is still, even though it’s more of a commonly used term, people don’t really understand it. They don’t really talk about it. Any of my friends who’ve had it still feel, even though they understand they shouldn’t feel it’s a stigma, they feel so stigmatized by it. They feel so disappointed in themselves. They feel as though there’s something they did wrong that caused that feeling. Um, I really appreciate you opening up about that.

And also, you talk about postnatal depression and, and you also talk about IVF, which so few people talk about. And I wanted to ask you about that because it’s still such a hush hush subject and I don’t really understand why. I can, I guess I, you know, I can obviously intellectually understand that there’s, there’s some feeling like your, your body has failed you in some way, but it has never, it’s never resonated with me why anyone would feel so embarrassed about having to do something that so many people have to do.

Paloma: Yeah, first of all, it’s not a failure of your body.

Jameela: Exactly.

Paloma: But also I think it’s funny [00:15:00] that people assume always that it’s the woman’s fertility issue. And so when I, when I say to people, I did IVF to have my children, everyone always assumes it was, it was an issue with my body, but it wasn’t. It was an issue with my kid’s dad’s sperm. And so, due to the brilliance of the patriarchy, science hasn’t figured out a way to help male fertility problems without extreme female suffering. So, of course, it’s the male problem, so the woman has to do all the stuff and he just has to come inside a plastic pot. So that sounds more fun, although he did say it was quite a high pressured wank.

Jameela: Yeah. Hahaha!

Paloma: Trying to, trying to make himself ejaculate before I woke up from the anaesthetic. [00:16:00] But I don’t have any pity because I’d much rather do a high pressured wank than have my leg in stirrups and go be put to sleep and then wake up having been scraped out.

Jameela: Oh, this is, this is

Paloma: After two weeks of injections.

Jameela: I was about to say all the injections, the emotional rollercoaster you go on during the injections, you’re body’s going through so much, your mind is going through so much.

It’s so intensive and there’s so many new studies now that are finally emerging about the fact that actually, it’s almost more often to do with the man’s health and lifestyle than the woman’s and that, when a woman is going through IVF and she’s there, she’s not drinking, she’s not eating gluten, she’s, you know, doing yoga.

Paloma: And he’s just still going out, getting wasted.

Jameela: Yeah, exactly. He’s going out living his life, not taking care of himself. He’s still, you know, just exposing himself to all of the different environmental factors that can fuck up your fertility. And this isn’t men’s fault. They have no idea. No one’s ever told them that this is something they have to do. And then they [00:17:00] wonder why it fails again and again and again. And women often do multiple, multiple, multiple rounds of IVF, of egg collection, and then implantation, etc. And a lot of the cost falls on women so much of the time, so much of the pain falls on women as you talk about, so much of the ginormous life burden falls on us. And they have no idea, they’re just out there in the Wild West. Just wanking into a cup, wanking like beer and cocaine, into a cup and wondering why it doesn’t take.

Paloma: They even provide them with porn to have the wank, to, if they, if they want. It’s very luxurious.

Jameela: It’s very luxurious, very coddling.

Also like so enraging and devastating that for so many decades and even like just with me with my friends for the last few years, how this information is only emerging now after some of them are like six, seven years into trying and trying and feeling as though they [00:18:00] can’t work out what’s going on and never a suggestion of an alternative lifestyle for their partners, their male partners. So can you talk me through what IVF was like for you? Because I know it wasn’t like a completely straightforward process.

Paloma: No, so I had, um, an egg collection and then I had, I had quite a lot of eggs because I obviously didn’t have fertility problems, so I had 14 eggs, which was quite a lot. That’s like, that’s like having 14 periods that month. Like, it was the hormone level of 14 periods in one collection.

Jameela: Jesus christ. What did that feel like, emotionally?

Paloma: Well, I wasn’t great. I was actually, I write about it in the book. I was doing some TV and I had quite a bad panic attack during a moment that I would have probably handled fine normally, but I black, I even blacked out because I was so emotionally charged and overwhelmed that I couldn’t even function with this [00:19:00] minor occurrence, but it was during filming The Voice which I was, uh, one of the coaches on. But yeah, so I did that and then I put, we put one in and that was ectopic. So then I found out that by doing that, because it was ectopic, I might lose my own fertility.

Jameela: And ectopic is when it’s, it’s in the fallopian tube.

Paloma: Yeah.

Jameela: Uh, the fetus is developing there instead of in the

Paloma: So then you can’t move it or anything. You just have to remove it from the fallopian tube. So they did a laparoscopy where they cut open the tube and they remove it. And then they did another transfer and that one took, that was my first child. So the birth was pretty bad. It was, long story short, but it’s all in my book if you care for the gory details, but it was a long labor. I had premature rupture of membranes with a premature baby and 21 hours of [00:20:00] labor, 14 hours of them with no pain relief, and then an emergency cesarean where we both were really sick and had to be in hospital for a week, um, which was really traumatic.

But then COVID happened several years later, and we’d struggled a lot with, as a couple, like, just things like having to schedule sex and feeling unattractive when somebody’s seen you at your absolute worst, and, like, all these things that come up that you don’t speak about, and communication or no communication, like, there’s so many layers. And there’s so much pressure on the relationship, but COVID happened and the fertility clinic actually called, called round and was like, it’s quite a good time because you’re not stressed. You’re not working. To everyone, do you want one? And basically it was like, I was like, yes, I do. And he said, I, I don’t think we will make it if we have another baby. And I said, I [00:21:00] don’t mind.

Jameela: Fuck.

Paloma: Because I wanted another baby so much and then we didn’t make it, so he was right, but don’t regret it. That sounds really bad because I do really like him and I think that actually a journalist commented on our relationship and said that when I speak about the way we communicate and the way we navigate parenthood, he said that it sounds like a better relationship than a lot of marriages that are together. But I feel that as a couple, which we still are in some way, because we’re raising two kids, I feel like our communication’s better. I have a break so I’m less stressed because two nights a week they go to his house and I get to be free, independent, vibrant me without the burden or preoccupation with them not being looked after or having to get back to the babysitter two nights a week and it has affected me mentally. [00:22:00] So, for the better, in many ways, I think, it’s a better setup for me, as an individual because when you’re parenting together, you’re just doing it day in, day out, day in, day out. And the resentment that I had really overwhelmed the relationship and then it was just, it perpetuates in minor things like arguing over, you know, somebody not locking the door properly or whatever it is that resentment manifests. But I just feel like I don’t resent him anymore. I’m just, I accept everything and I think it’s the acceptance that’s the key to our successful relationship in the manifestation it’s in now.

Jameela: So what about all the couples? Because I don’t think I’ve got any mates who’ve had a baby, especially not in the first few years, who don’t want to kill each other. Like it’s, it’s really, it’s really intense, the toll it takes on the relationship and the resentment that builds up and the lack of sleep and [00:23:00] the point scoring and the disagreement on the temperature of the milk and how to, you know, how to do bath time, etc. All of this adds up. The sex takes a, you know, a backseat, the, the love and oxytocin needs are fulfilled through the baby rather than through each other. So there are some people who choose to stay together through that. And do you have any advice or, or thoughts about them and what they can do if they’re going to try and stick it, you know, like stick it out with each other?

Paloma: I think if I was going to do that again, I would, if there’s any way you can, to have the freedom of a few nights off a week.

Jameela: Each?

Paloma: Would be amazing. Each. Yeah. But that obviously leaves, if it’s two, if it’s two, it leaves only three days together as a family. But I, but I just think that, that, that mental space, if you can do it financially, I think it would be really [00:24:00] healthy for, at least for the first three years.

Jameela: Even just one or two would probably be such a difference. Like my friends are giving each other two hours on the weekend each to do whatever the fuck they want and even that has like lifted, uh,

Paloma: Lifted there. Yeah. I think just making sure that there’s that time.

Jameela: I think that’s amazing. I think there’s that feeling of you have to do it because it’s so hard. You have to do it all together, uh, everything together. But that that is really interesting, and I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that before that actually that might be the key is that it’s doable on your own as long as the other one is sort of set you up. It is doable.

Paloma: Well, when I became a single parent.

Jameela: Exactly. Loads of my mates who are single parents do it all on their own anyway. And so it’s doable, and then at least you have the mental break.

Paloma: Yeah, in some ways doing it on your own is easier, in others it’s not. But it is quite nice to just have one person to answer to. But I also think you mentioned some stuff that was quite interesting just now about when you live separately, you have to accept that it is actually [00:25:00] good for kids to learn that different people do things in different ways.

So, my kids might go to their dads and they say, well, Papa always makes us go to bed at this time, and he won’t let us have treats like you do on that day. And I say, well, that’s his way of doing it. I do this. And when I’m, you know, he might let you do things that I don’t, and that’s fine. Everyone’s different. I’m not gonna, like, call him and say I don’t , we don’t like that, we don’t do that because that’s sort of controlling and actually when they grow up they won’t be equipped for the fact that you can’t just have everything done one way.

Jameela: Do you think that you both compete ever to be the more, I don’t know, like whatever, the more parents

Paloma: The favorite?

Jameela: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I only asked this because I was accused of giving the dogs a bit more cheese during their formative years and I’ve been told that that’s why they love me [00:26:00] more, which is not true.

Paloma: I don’t think there’s any competition.

Jameela: But I was just wondering, you know, like, just asking for a friend. Do you, is there an urge?

Paloma: I’m just the best.

Jameela: Is there an urge? Yeah. Hahaha! Yeah, you’re just, yeah, that’s it. You’re Usain Bolt. That’s it.

Paloma: Just like you’re the best dog owner. And we all know dogs and kids are exactly the same.

Jameela: No, I know. I always think it’s really fun to bring it up to parents about how my dogs are the same as their children, their beloved children that they grew in their own bodies. I just think it’s really sensitive.

Paloma: I actually just think that the most difficult thing to look after in the whole world beyond a dog or a human being is a plant. And then like, I remember before I had kids, my mum would go, you can’t keep a plant alive. How are you going to keep a child alive when you’re older? And I’d be like really worried because I still can’t keep a plant alive but for some reason my children are still [00:27:00] alive. I don’t know how I’ve done it, but they’re alive and all my plants are dead.

Jameela: I’m so proud of you.

Paloma: Thank you!

Jameela: I’m so proud of you because you’ve kept all of this up and you have also managed to still, you know, I’m sure there are certain things you haven’t been able to do, but you’ve been able to maintain an extraordinary career and also just your personal, again, I know this has taken hits in moments, especially with the postnatal depression, but your effervescence has never dimmed.

And I think what’s really cool is that something else that you are advocating for is to challenge the idea of can women have it all because from the outside it has certainly looked like you have done all of this seamlessly, and not just survived, but thrived through it all. And I really appreciate that you’re challenging that, because I think that’s a conversation that is now starting to pop up, where we’re starting to realize that, you know, the side effects of the kind of feminist girlboss moment has harmed us [00:28:00] immensely, because, because nothing has shifted in the dynamic, in the heteronormative dynamic, to mean that, yeah, okay, you girlboss, but then no one else picks up the slack on the other side. So you’re girlbossing and mumbossing at the same time, and then sort of having a nervous breakdown.

Paloma: Yeah, I think we’ve been let down by it. I think that it’s a cunning trick that the patriarchy’s gone, how can we make feminism work for us? Hmm, I know what we’ll do. We’ll just make them do the work of seven people and then call it feminism. And we’re like burnt out. We’re so burnt out.

Jameela: But we can’t look burnt out, paloma, that’s important.

Paloma: No, because we have to always be beautiful and young forever.

Jameela: And thin, very thin.

Paloma: Yes, emaciated. But the thing, the thing is, is like, we tell ourselves that as well, and each other, and I think that we need to like, give our fellow women, like, cut them some slack [00:29:00] because it is not, it’s not okay. It’s an unfair expectation of ourselves and our peers. And it’s up to us to kind of vocalize that. Like, I mean, I didn’t, you know, that people talk about the bouncing back. Like I didn’t bounce back. I literally clambered with the pickaxe and found myself being so affected by social media.

Jameela: And when you say bounce back, do you mean In image or do you mean in career? What do you mean?

Paloma: Everything.

Jameela: Do you mean like the snapback or you mean everything? Okay.

Paloma: I feel like, you know, to come back, be sort of young and vibrant and thin and dynamic and have all these ideas. One thing that I did notice though on the positive is that after having children, I became way more efficient. So my capability of what I could actually turnover in, in sort of half the time was huge.

And so I’ve been speaking a lot. about the fact that I think that it’s quite [00:30:00] important that CEOs or like heads of company realize that, you know, I don’t know what it’s like in the U. S., but the school time table in the U. K. is from 9 a. m. till 3. 30 p. m., and I think that employers would literally not notice if a woman was allowed to come in at 9:30, leave at 3:00, and I’m sure if she’s a mother, she will finish the work that most people do between nine and five in that time because you just automatically become more efficient when you have a kid. And if they don’t, then I think their employers should allow them to complete whatever the day’s project is post bedtime from home. So like between 8 and 10 PM, if they, if they want to. And even that is not a nice favour because it means that these women are going to be working till 10 PM. But what it is, is just saying, we acknowledge that you are more [00:31:00] efficient, that you are a great employee, and we’re going to support that. But, you know, that doesn’t happen. People are just like, oh, I don’t want to employ mums.

Jameela: No, I know. But to dig deeper then, you’re talking about the fact that you’ve kind of had this revelation post trying to do it all that doing so can be incredibly detrimental to one’s mind and body, etc., and soul, I guess. So what would you have done differently? Or what do you think is the balance that women should be striking in order to not succumb to this, like, patriarchal trap?

Paloma: I think it’s very difficult to avoid it because I think it’s a systemic change and by taking on that responsibility, it just adds another burden onto us, like, what can we do? How can we make it better? It actually needs to be something that changes across the board. I think actually, like I just [00:32:00] mentioned, employers need to be more supportive. I think men need or partners need to be more observant of what’s being done

Jameela: And more supportive.

Paloma: Take a bit more initiative, more supportive in that sense, and take it on, not as a favor, but actually their responsibility that’s a given.

Jameela: Not just their responsibility, but also every time you look at the GDP of a company that empowers women, like there’s a direct correlation between the support of women and the empowerment of women and a higher GDPA better outcome for all of the children, better education, um, better mental health, etc. So we see the the health, vitality, and GDP statistics very, very clearly of what happens when you look after half the population rather than burn them out until they’re just a sort of husk. And so it’s not just a, it’s not a favor. It’s not even just a

Paloma: I feel like a husk with makeup on.

Jameela: Oh, bless you. Um, but I, uh, as a dog owner, I feel the same. [00:33:00]

Paloma: I also think as well that there’s an interesting perception that’s important to touch on, like when somebody has got a successful career that like, yes, I can afford childcare in a way that most of my friends who are still like creative and I don’t have that many people in my industry who are friends, really can’t afford the childcare that I can afford to be able to do my job. But having said that, I’m one of these people which is very different to my peers, um, I get him from work and my childcare leaves immediately because I want to, like, be a present mother. I don’t feel comfortable with my children being raised by a nanny, basically. I don’t want that for them or myself and that’s a personal choice and it’s not a judgmental thing. But it just means that the, that’s my personal choice that does lead to [00:34:00] me being more burnt out because I will literally come in from work and then she sort of high fives me on the way out and that’s my choice. And then it’s immediate, you know, I’m straight into other role. And when my diary says day off, I always laugh because it’s the hardest day of my week is when it says day off, because it means that I’m on my own with no nanny, with just my two kids and me planning everything, doing all the cooking, whatever. And that’s like, actually, my hardest day of my week. Going to work’s a break. So when I talk about this to people, I say like, stay at home mums, in my opinion, have the absolute rawest deal in society because I know what they do. I experience it and it’s harder than anybody’s work. I know what it feels like to be the CEO of a company cause I’m the CEO of my own company. So I know what, what these people are [00:35:00] doing, going, coming home going, oh, I had a really hard day at work. I’m telling you guys, it is nowhere near as difficult as a stay at home mum. And a lot of stay at home mums, I’ve had them cry in my arms saying I just want a job.

Jameela: It’s so funny, isn’t it? It’s so funny the way that even to this day, there’s almost like a bigger explosion than ever before of the sort of manosphere, red pill, podcasts, uh, painting it out as this ideal life and then also this kind of trad wife explosion of women speaking in really dulcet tones as they speak about, you know, like the child’s like, I want this type of Snickers bar and then she’s like, and then three weeks later, I made him a Snickers bar from scratch, um, and the craving’s gone by that point. Yeah. No, just like literally going out and building the oven from scratch, uh, making the house and making the thing. Yeah, exactly. And so listen, I, I love the, I love the idea of like marinating in the joys of motherhood, but also those women never [00:36:00] show themselves doing the laundry, cleaning the toilet, doing anything else.

Paloma: Well, there’s two chapters in my book.

Jameela: Yeah.

Paloma: One’s called, Babies are Boring, and the other one’s called, Kids are Boring.

Jameela: Elaborate on these.

Paloma: So you can flick straight to that.

Jameela: Again, my friends have been stunned by how bored they are. Stunned.

Paloma: Like, I know, you know, we love our kids, we’re like excited when they first smile and blah, blah, blah. But there are times where it’s just so dumb, and it’s so important that we don’t think that we’re not, that it takes away from our love or that people could doubt our parental responsibility because we’re like, you are so boring. The other day I was reading with my seven year old and because we do it every day and she’s just like, “And the man said. ‘I am a green tree.’ And he said,” and I just went, oh God, I’m so bored. And she was like, what? [00:37:00] And I was like, it’s great reading, but there’s just no personality. I was like, just try and do it with some like decent delivery. Could you? Cause otherwise it’s going to go on for ages. Are you bored? She was like, I’m so bored. I hate reading. I was like, no wonder. This is dull as dishwater. Go again. Do it with some feeling. And then she’s like, the man said, ba ba ba ba. And it was like, we were both in stitches. I was like, I don’t even know what the story’s about, but it’s fun. Let’s just do that. It’s just like, try and make it fun, because this is absolutely harrowing.

Jameela: Oh, god bless you. God bless you. Honestly, this is, it’s so you to talk about this like that. I’ve been interviewing you from the start of your career, and you’ve always had absolutely no regard for the social contract. And you’ve always said even live on television, sometimes the most uncomfortable thing. I’ve always had just a huge mind crush on you for that because

Paloma: I [00:38:00] remember that particular one. Haha!

Jameela: Haha! Where it’s almost your kink to make people as uncomfortable as possible. Just, uh, I can’t tell if it’s deliberate or not, but you manage to, you manage to create a sense of immediate danger the second the red light goes on where I’ve looked forward to interviewing you so much all the time, because I have no, no fucking idea what’s going to happen today, or what she’s going to say, or if she’s going to stab my co presenter with her mind.

I really, really adore you and you’ve always told the truth. You’re such a truth teller, and you’ve told the truth about what it’s like to be a woman in this industry. You’ve been saying it years before Me, the Me Too movement. You were saying all the shit and you were positioned as in some way, like difficult or too much at points, you know, for just [00:39:00] having an opinion.

Paloma: Yeah. Like we’re all, um, opinionated, ranting, nagging

Jameela: Banshees.

Paloma: Yeah.

Jameela: Yeah.

Paloma: Because women, God forbid we have an opinion.

Jameela: Yeah. And, and I think that people have actually been afraid of you because you’ve been a truth teller and you always said it in the same very sweet voice and manner and with a, you know, sometimes like a tongue in your cheek, but you’ve always told the truth. And I think that it’s the classic. I watched in real time with you doing that. You were outspoken before I was outspoken and I watched in real time how people try to make you feel like you should be small because they’re actually afraid of what you’re going to say. So they try and stop you from saying it rather than having to react to it. And you never stopped. And I just really, I can’t tell you how much I look up to you and admire you for that.

Paloma: Well, I actually feel the same about you. I think you’ve taken that a million steps further, and I’m such a fan of your podcast, that’s why I was so dying to come on here.

Jameela: Oh, I’m so happy to have you on it, honestly.

Paloma: [00:40:00] Yeah, the way you use your platform’s brilliant. I think it’s really important as well, that people aren’t silenced because of, and made to feel small, because they’re trying to sort of speak the unspeakable because actually that’s what isolates us and makes us feel rubbish. And that’s the point of the book that I’m talking about is cause I think I read so much literature before having a baby that was all about how to be a great mother, how to look after the baby. And there was nothing in it for me about saying, how do you look after you? And I think that in doing that and sort of acknowledging my failings, even to my kids, I think it’s an important child rearing thing. Like when your kids see you cry, that you don’t just go, Oh, nothing. You say, Oh, I’m really sad today about something because I think it’s really important that we’re, as I’m raising daughters, that we’re raising new generations of women that feel it’s okay to have the feelings they’re having. It’s [00:41:00] okay to reject what the expectations are and it’s okay to remain an individual with needs when you have children in whatever way shape or form you have to do to get there

Jameela: Yeah, you’re humanizing the female experience because it’s been so dehumanized in every way, even in the fact that we’re told we’re not supposed to get older or gain weight, like we’re supposed to fight time and gravity. There’s something ultimately dehumanizing in that because succumbing to time and gravity is the human experience. And it’s one that we allow men to do and we applaud men for doing. And then we come up with all sorts of sexy, flattering names for them. You know, daddy, then zaddy, and then I don’t know, grand zaddy. You know, I don’t fucking know. But, you know, all of the different terms of affection for their human experience and women are denied it. And I, I think it’s so great that you model that. Dawn Porter was also on this podcast a while ago talking about the fact that she just sometimes locks her, like goes into the bathroom, locks the door and like has a go and just says, the way you spoke to me has made me feel like this and allows them to feel [00:42:00] bad for mistreating her so that they can feel the ramifications of their behavior towards her, especially her sons. I think it’s just so, it’s so pivotal. It’s so important.

Something else you talk about in the book and wanting to look after yourself is a woman’s relationship to her body, not just in her aesthetic, but actually her sexuality and the way that culture sort of makes mothers seem like they’re invisible now. They’re a subclass or an alternative class of human, again, removing their humanity. As if somehow, the second you pop out a child, all of your sexuality stops, and we go through that sort of Madonna Whore complex of now you are just this sort of sanctified human who doesn’t have a vagina or who doesn’t have a clitoris.

Paloma: Or any desire.

Jameela: You have a vagina, just no clitoris. Yeah, exactly. Um, so talk to me about the revelations you’ve had about the way that we diminish women’s sexuality once they become mothers.

Paloma: Well, I do a lot of reflecting about where it starts because I [00:43:00] think when we first grow up, um, I know that my sort of inner London education meant that you were either when you’re young, either branded um, frigid or a whore. And so you’re either, when you’re a teenager, you put out and you’re a whore or you’re frigid. And there’s no like middle way of just somebody with normal sexual desire and a normal relationship with their body and their expectations for their own body, firstly. So it all starts then. And there’s this kind of confusion as well about like, I think when you’re young, a young woman kind of appeasing male desire, putting the female orgasm very low on the list of priorities. I know that it wasn’t, I was three years sexually active before I even had an orgasm and, and I believed it not to be possible because a lot of what I was taught about my sexuality came from a male [00:44:00] ideal. Like, that the female orgasm must be the same as a man’s. And I just think that it’s really kind of disappointing that we’re raised like that. And, and that many women have gone their whole lives without having an orgasm, and I think that’s really sad. And then we get to like this point, I think, once I’d had my children, I think I had a sexual liberation. Like a sexual awakening after having kids where I was just like, my body has done this amazing thing and I was like really in touch with it, and I felt I really wanted to have sex a lot afterwards. I was like, yes, this is my time. And then, but then I felt like the whole world made me invisible, like it was like I had this sexually invisible cloak on because God forbid that a mother could be sexy. And I looked back on like my [00:45:00] 20s of like the gorgeous body and all the faked orgasms and then I just thought, Oh my God, like I’m never going to do that again. Now I’m just going to be like, aiming high and like having really amazing physical experiences because I’m really sort of proud of my body in the sense that it’s quite hilarious because now I’ve got caesarean scar and nipples that look like dog toys because of breastfeeding. Well actually before it was amazing but it’s not anymore. But I actually prefer it because I’m just like yes! Um, and I think that’s like an amazing empowering thing that women should not feel ashamed of.

Jameela: Yeah. And there’s something very attractive about respect, right? When you respect someone, it makes them more attractive to you and you respect yourself in a newfound way that comes with age and learning who you are and then also the extraordinary achievement of making humans out of your own body and [00:46:00] so it sounds as though you, I don’t mean this indelicately but like you find yourself more attracted, attractive, you are, you are, it’s not that you’re attracted to yourself but you can, you are much more in touch with your own sexual need and desire because there’s a new found respect.

Paloma: No, a hundred percent but I think that that’s not just because of having children, I think it’s something to do with women in their forties. Because I’ve got several friends in their forties that haven’t had children. I speak a bit about that in my book as well. And they have the same thing. They’re just like, I don’t know if it’s because it’s pre menopause, and we’re just like genetically predisposed to just being like really into it, because we’re about to start.

Jameela: I think that is a part, that is a part of it by the way, that is a part of it is that you know you go into ovulation chaos whether you’ve had a kid or not.

Paloma: Just dropping eggs left right and center.

Jameela: 100%. Yeah, but um, but I would say that uh, it is also, as I said just [00:47:00] before the motherhood bit, that it’s also part of just getting older and starting to like, know yourself, learn yourself. I completely agree with you. I think the height of insanity, of gender insanity, is the normalization of faking orgasms. Like that to me has, I’ve never done it. I’ve never understood why anyone would do that. Why would you ever?

Paloma: Like, I think they would do it to get it over and done with.

Jameela: Maybe, but it’s so detrimental to the

Paloma: I know, to other women.

Jameela: Not to other women, not just to other women, but also to the man’s growth as a lover. Like, how the fuck is he thinks he’s got, and you’ve given him an A star, and he hasn’t actually met the mark, so he has no idea. It’s not his fucking fault then, he’s like, Oh, I mustn’t change anything, because I smashed that.

Paloma: I’ll do that one.

Jameela: I’ll do that one again. Yeah, I’ll do that one again. Hahaha! So, like, it doesn’t help anyone. It is a lose lose across the board. And I, you know, I’ve spoken about this before, that I, I look back with such sadness over [00:48:00] sex that I had in my twenties, where the first thought as soon as the sex was over was, did you enjoy that? Was that good for you? It was never, did I enjoy that? That was a way afterthought that now in my 30s has become the first thought is, did I enjoy that? Because if I didn’t, we’re not done.

Paloma: But I also think if someone’s saying, did you enjoy that? It’s slightly concerning anyway, because they’re just like, Did you?

Jameela: Yeah. No, I don’t mean I said it out loud. I just mean that I was thinking that I was like, I would look almost for approval to the other person being like, if they had a good time, then I had a good time rather than my good time shouldn’t actually be reliant on anything other than my own personal pleasure. It’s the Samantha from Sex and City line of like, “Honey, when I RSVP to a party, I make it my business to come.” You know, like that was one of the most important sentences in feminist theory, I think. Yeah, exactly. I would put [00:49:00] that as like a great quote in a museum. Um, and, and good for her. But I love the fact that you’re vocal about the fact that we should demand orgasms during sex and we should demand good sex and I also think it’s great that you are opening up about this because I think a lot of women feel so stigmatized, like they feel as though they have to cut all their hair off and they have to change the way that they dress now and they have to behave in this new way, like I, I was talking to a friend just yesterday, who works in this industry, and she’s noticed that the men that she works with treat her differently now that she’s a mother, including not making dirty jokes around her all of a sudden?

Paloma: Yeah. I had a moment when I was filming Pennyworth, and I was, pregnant, and there was a, I was heavily pregnant and there was a woman who was, who had a one year old at home and I had to bludgeon someone to death with a dildo in character. [00:50:00] Like, with bloods flying out and it was just huge dildos everywhere. And it was the most, it was in a sex shop, that was the scene. It was the most uncomfortable I’ve ever seen a room full of men because that’s like the film industry is mostly men. The cameraman, the leckies, everyone was just like, there’s a pregnant woman beating someone to death with a dildo. What do we do? Is this imprinting on the unborn child? No one knew where to look. And then we were like shooting videos of me like swinging them around my head and like showing the tummy. Obviously not in the show because that was a serious scene. But, but it was just, um, yeah, it was very uncomfortable. They don’t like it. They don’t know what to do.

Jameela: What advice do you have for someone out there now who’s had a baby, who’s starting to account for their own, you know, like their growth, their sexuality, and they, they feel all of those desires, but they feel as though [00:51:00] they’re being treated differently. How do you take, because not everybody is as self empowered as you manage to be, what advice do you have for them as to like how to take control back of that?

Paloma: I think that you need to block out the noise to some degree because it is very noisy.

Jameela: How do you do that? Do you like get off the internet? Like, because I feel as though you were, you mentioned that that’s like a big, that’s a huge pressure.

Paloma: What you look at, I’ve realized now, what I look at affects my algorithm massively. So my algorithm’s actually quite intelligent now because I’ve sort of made an effort not to go to those posts on your home screen that say, look at this terrible piece of trash that’s going to make you feel terrible about yourself. I don’t really have those anymore. So I think first of all, that. But just in general, I think taking time and not feeling guilty about it is the worst thing because parental guilt, or mum guilt, they call it, is the worst [00:52:00] thing. Like if you think that it’s bad because you put your kids in the bath, And then went and like, put some makeup on and got dressed up so that you’d feel good later after you put them to bed to go out. You shouldn’t feel that you’re taking away from those kids.

Jameela: Do people feel guilty about that? Because I have no experience with this.

Paloma: Yes.

Jameela: Why?

Paloma: And they might be like, oh, turn up to a social event. Sorry I look so, like, bedraggled. It’s just that I just felt guilty because I was going to take time away from the kids for, like while I was getting dressed up.

Jameela: Oh, you mean, you mean taking time out from the nighttime routine to be able to spend a bit of time for like self care?

Paloma: Just like give yourself some time and a bit of slack. And also like being away from your kids, I think people make this huge thing. Obviously, if you’re never there, like, but it’s a cumulative, like if you have, you know, a week where, for example, you’re away for three days, And then you’re always [00:53:00] there, it’s not going to affect their psychology. What affects their psychology is if you’re never there for the first 15 years of their life, but you’re not going to do that because that’s quite a rare thing. So really forgiving yourself for taking time for yourself. I’m not sure I understand the word self care because like my friend actually texted me the other day was like, you need to practice more self care. And I was like, I don’t know what that means. So I don’t want to use the word that I don’t understand what self care means because I don’t think I’ve really got much time to do it. I think there’s loads of things that people, that I have to do for my job that people say is self care, but I hate, like, doing my nails. Look, they’re so great. I hate doing that. Or like getting a wax or having a massage.

Jameela: I refuse. Look at this shit.

Paloma: I despise.

Jameela: Look at this.

Paloma: Yeah, I’ve done this for Glastonbury.

Jameela: I refuse. Right. Yeah, that’s fair.

Paloma: But, but like, I, you know, I just don’t, I, self care [00:54:00] is different for every individual.

Jameela: I don’t really mean, yeah, I don’t just mean beautifying, but I mean just taking a bit of time to just, rest, chill, maybe put some creams on, look after yourself, just listen to some music, maybe watch a bit of your TV show. There are now actual studies that they’re now stating that statistically the higher outcome, the better outcome for children is that of those who have a fulfilled mother. So a mother who’s able to, who isn’t just completely strung out, who’s able to do some of the things that she loves, who’s, who’s able to, uh, have some social time that is her own and, and have some space, uh, a mother who is fulfilled without fail has a better outcome for the children. So that doesn’t mean she’s there giving up every single second, every single drop of energy, every drop of blood to those children. It means she’s actually saving some for herself because obviously, we talk about this in activism, we talk about this in every area of life. Like, it is unsustainable to just run yourself into the ground and have just an empty cup. There’s nothing left to give after a certain amount of time, and, and I saw that in my [00:55:00] own household. I’ve seen that in so many of my friends households. Like, there’s wringing a woman dry is simply unsustainable and naturally eventually bleeds out onto everyone else around her. It is so much more sensible to sustain a human being.

Paloma: And if children are being raised to see that, that it’s a woman’s role to be run dry, they’re going to perpetuate that because they’re going to say, well, my mum did that, whether it’s little boys saying that, or they’re going to Be little girls saying, you know, Oh, my mom did that, so I have to do that. So I think it’s really important always to know that what you’re perpetuating. Actually, I just thought something, I had a therapist for seven years, and one of the things that he said to me, which is really pivotal was, would you speak to your child the way you speak to yourself? So if, when your kids are older to your sons, would you say, your wife needs to wring herself dry until she’s got [00:56:00] nothing left for you. And would you say to your daughters, you need to wring yourself dry until there’s nothing left for somebody? Or would you say, you’ve got to take a bit of time to yourself? So you’ve got to learn to like talk to yourself in those ways. And I do think that because of mum guilt, saying to women, you’ve got to take some time for yourself can even become like another thing that they’re trying to force. And it becomes like another kind of way to fail.

Jameela: Way to fail.

Paloma: Yeah. So I think that it needs to happen in a way that’s like more like rather than doing this for yourself, it’s just allow yourself. And sometimes you may not want to, like you might want to just, you know, luxuriate in your children, you think, they’re young and if that works for you, that’s great. But I think that it doesn’t work for everyone. I’ve had, I’ve had it where I wrote online that I was struggling because I was sitting in my [00:57:00] oldest daughter’s room until like 9:30 every night because she wouldn’t go to sleep unless I was sitting in there until I sorted the sleep issue out, which was solvable. But I just felt like, and I was saying on like online, like does, how long does this go on for like to other mothers? And a lot of women’s response to that was, they don’t stay young for long, so keep doing it, enjoy it while it lasts. And I was like, well, that’s making me feel guilty for wanting to be out of there by 8:15 so I can get on with some stuff because we condense, especially like high achieving women, we condense most of our output into our kid’s sleeping hours. So I didn’t find that that helpful. It just works for me and now I’ve got like that down to a tee that my kids go to bed at a reasonable time and they’re not allowed out of their bedrooms until the next morning. That’s just how I do it. That’s how I managed to have a [00:58:00] life.

Jameela: Yeah, I, I, and I think that it’s clearly working for you and they seem like really happy children. They don’t seem, you know, it’s not Dickensian. You were talking about asking, you know, yourself, would you speak to yourself the way you speak to your child? But also, I think I’ve had this conversation a lot with some of my mates, you know, where they’ve had children together and there’s a baby girl growing up in the household. And the man’s just not really picking up the slack and kind of leaving things until the woman eventually succumbs and just does it because he didn’t do it when he said he would, etc. And I just, I found myself saying to one of them that, do you know that you’re modeling this dynamic so now your daughter, who’s the love of your life, is going to grow up and then she’s going to have to do this for someone else because she’s watched her mum do it instead of you? I was like, are you up for her being someone else’s live in maid as well as her having her dreams come true? And it was the first time I saw the penny actually drop where they just they honestly don’t think about the fact that this pattern like this is a lineage of patterns that have [00:59:00] existed for decades and hundreds of years even, and it seems to be one of the only ways. And it’s so frustrating that it’s like when a man has a daughter he can actually start to empathize with women you know when they’re like you know I’m a feminist I have a, I have three girls etc, but it did feel like the helpful way to remind them of like, are you aware of what you’re setting them up for? This dynamic will be replicated in some way and either you will raise a boy who’s going to make a woman really unhappy to the point where she wants to leave him and she resents him, or you’re going to raise a girl who’s going to be silently unhappy and overburdened, um. And I think that what I appreciate about this book and I appreciate about everything that you’re doing is the fact that this isn’t a book that’s just for women, this is a call to action for the society that surrounds, for the whole network and the whole village that surrounds people who are making babies and saying everyone else needs to step up. We literally cannot step up any further. If anything, we need to step back a bit and you need to fucking pull yourselves up by your fucking [01:00:00] bootstraps.

Paloma: Come in like expandable foam.

Jameela: Yeah, exactly. Come in and help and do more.

Paloma: You know expandable foam is so amazing when you inject it into the wall and it goes pfff. That’s what we want.

Jameela: Exactly. And I really, I really appreciate that. And when I ask you for advice, women, I guess that’s just because, and, and we haven’t like had a long conversation in a while, probably since that earthquake. Um, but you seem very in your bones, and you seem well, and you seem strong, and I guess I want women to know how to get to where you’re at. Do you feel good?

Paloma: I do. I feel, yeah, I feel much more certain, accomplished. Not when I say accomplished, I don’t mean in like, you know, a public facing way, like within myself, like having done lots of work and thought about lots of things. And I have made a choice. I have to sort of full disclaimer: I’ve made a choice not to accept certain social structures, [01:01:00] which have meant that I’m now a single woman parenting two kids. And I don’t regret it, but that is the consequence of the fact that I just think heterosexual men need to catch up, and it is easier for me personally than the resentment. I say, the grass isn’t greener, you just choose the shit you know or the shit you don’t know. So, I do feel good because I feel good like within myself, but it is difficult and there’s like pros and cons to every choice, like obviously there are times when I just like miss having someone to like look at and cuddle at the end of the day or whatever, um, and there may be a time when I have that again, but for now.

Jameela: Well, if you do, we’ll know he’s making you orgasm every time you have sex, because that’s the bar.

Paloma: Yeah, of course. I mean, of course. Absolutely. [01:02:00] But yeah, I feel like happiness isn’t an achievable expectation for people to have just in general sort of philosophically, because everything is transient. And so moments of happiness are all we can aspire to, just like sadness is transient. And actually yesterday night I texted my best friend and I said, I’m just so happy today. I’m so happy I’m on my own. And I’d had like three days where I sent her messages saying, I’m so lonely, so haha!

Jameela: It’s a hundred percent true.

Paloma: But I was yesterday really pleased.

Jameela: Yeah. Yeah. I, and, and I think, um, people in relationships feel the same way. I feel I think they feel exactly the same way. I wish I wasn’t in this relationship. I’m really happy. I’m in this relationship. Yeah, exactly. You know, hopefully books like yours and conversations like the ones that you’re having with everyone will mean that someone’s only choice other than resentment isn’t being alone that if society would [01:03:00] fucking step up then there would be a multitude of choices for how you could live your life. And so you’re out and you’re dating, you’re out and about, am I going to be looking to set you up?

Paloma: I’m out and dating and it’s a wild west.

Jameela: Yeah, yeah, yes, it’s very very intense.

Paloma: I’d like to be set up because so far the dating apps have been highly disappointing.

Jameela: Right.

Paloma: Just absolutely mind blowingly bad.

Jameela: Yeah, and do you feel as though you’re treated differently on the dating apps because you’re a mom as well?

Paloma: I think it’s more because I’m a recognizable face that I’m treated differently.

Jameela: That’s fair, that’s fair, that’s completely fair.

Paloma: I think basically there’s this thing that I’ve got which is terrible which means anybody that I want to date will go on a date with me but not always for the right reason.

Jameela: Yes. Oh my god.

Paloma: You just get there and you’re like in a selfie.

Jameela: Um, I, uh, I adore you.

Paloma: I adore you back.

Jameela: And I thank you for this conversation.

Paloma: Thank you [01:04:00] for existing.

Jameela: Come back any time. Honestly, you are just such a shining light and I feel very lucky to know you and I think your kids are really lucky to have you as a mum. I think you’re modelling something that is not by any means easy, but it’s incredibly impressive and I think it will only make stronger young women out of them. I really appreciate you. Thanks for coming on.

Paloma: I appreciate you.

Jameela: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimmie Gregory, and Amelia Chappelow. And the beautiful music that you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. And if you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. It’s such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording sharing what you weigh at [01:05:00] iweighpodcast@gmail.com.