EP. 213 — Neal Brennan Returns

 

 

Jameela [00:00:14] Neil fucking Brennan. Welcome to I Weigh.

 

Neal [00:00:19] Mm mm Jameela. I welcome the challenge. No, I’m kidding. It’s nice to be here.

 

Jameela [00:00:23] It’s so nice to see you. I was listening to your last episode on this podcast, which I think we recorded like way back at the beginning, like 2020. And it was a different guy. It was really interesting to hear it, a completely different person. And I’m really excited today to talk about all the changes that you’ve been through.

 

Neal [00:00:44] The new model.

 

Jameela [00:00:45] To get you to the guy, to the shining beacon

 

Neal [00:00:47] Fantastic.

 

Jameela [00:00:47] That is sitting opposite me today.

 

Neal [00:00:48] I can’t wait to hear who I am.

 

Jameela [00:00:53] So how are you? How are you feeling?

 

Neal [00:00:55] I feel professionally very resolved. And I can’t believe it. I was, I felt generally thwarted by the world because I had all of my worth and interest focused on comedy.

 

Jameela [00:01:14] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:01:14] And, and but I was clinically depressed. I had dysthymic depression, which I’m sure we spoke about. And it’s sort of it’s, in a in a inability to experience joy. So for the last, starting in 2020, I started, I would drink ayahuasca.

 

Jameela [00:01:33] Mhm.

 

Neal [00:01:33] And then I did that for about a year. Not like constantly, like I had a jug like everyone in LA.

 

Jameela [00:01:39] What, a Stanley cup?

 

Neal [00:01:42] Yeah, exactly.

 

Jameela [00:01:42] Haha.

 

Neal [00:01:42] Can’t get them online, guys. They’re going through the roof. It’s easier to get ayahuasca than the Stanley Cup.

 

Jameela [00:01:46] Haha.

 

Neal [00:01:46] And, and then I did a thing called 5-MeO-DMT, which was severely damaging, but, over, over a longer period of time, it kind of improved me as a person.

 

Jameela [00:01:59] What is it?

 

Neal [00:01:59] I basically, well, all of this is, do we assume people know what ayahuasca is?

 

Jameela [00:02:05] No.

 

Neal [00:02:05] Okay. Ayahuasca’s an Amazonian plant medicine. It’s basically a tea. It’s a two different root vegetables that they make a tea out of. And you drink it ceremonially with a group of people.

 

Jameela [00:02:17] And it’s delicious I heard.

 

Neal [00:02:19] It’s it’s actually of the, I don’t mind the taste. They, it tastes molassesy to me.

 

Jameela [00:02:24] Right.

 

Neal [00:02:25] But it’s like a, it’s like an unsweetened cappuccino or unsweetened, the, the the worse one, espresso. The unsweetened espresso is what it tastes like to me.

 

Jameela [00:02:34] Okay. A lot of people projectile vomit after taking it.

 

Neal [00:02:37] Not projectile.

 

Jameela [00:02:37] Did you?

 

Neal [00:02:38] You will vomit. I’ve only vomited once out of, about 15 times.

 

Jameela [00:02:43] Okay, well there’s no need to brag here.

 

Neal [00:02:44] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:02:44] Now, remember you’re not trying to win anyone.

 

Neal [00:02:45] And never, listen to me, I’ve never crapped my pants. So I don’t care what you’ve heard.

 

Jameela [00:02:51] I didn’t even need to take ayahuasca to do that.

 

Neal [00:02:53] And people always bring up, “Oh, is that the one that makes you puke?” No, that’s alcohol. Alcohol makes everyone puke all the time, and no one mentions it.

 

Jameela [00:03:02] And there’s no great spiritual awakening after that.

 

Neal [00:03:03] There’s, nothing happens. You’re worse off and you puked. Good, good, anyway.

 

Jameela [00:03:08] The only revelation you ever had, have is alcohol is bad for me. I’m never going to drink this again. And then three days later, you drink it again.

 

Neal [00:03:14] And then you’re like, what time we meeting, bros?

 

Jameela [00:03:16] Hahaha.

 

Neal [00:03:16] So I drank that and I got improvements from it. I went off anti-depressants to do it. You have to go off into depressants to do it. And then I never went back on. I was just more open generally. Then I did this thing called 5-MeO-DMT which is a toad secretion that they dry.

 

Jameela [00:03:34] Is it Jizz?

 

Neal [00:03:36] It’s not jizz, it’s more in the I think it’s more in the pus family.

 

Jameela [00:03:40] I don’t know, you’re laughing so.

 

Neal [00:03:42] Well.

 

Jameela [00:03:42] You seem a little guilty.

 

Neal [00:03:43] So it is close enough. And then you

 

Jameela [00:03:45] Soit’s not jizz, it’s pus.

 

Neal [00:03:46] It’s closer to the pus family. Yes.

 

Jameela [00:03:48] Mhm.

 

Neal [00:03:48] And the, so I so they dry it, you you smoke that and it’s was too severe for me.

 

Jameela [00:03:57] Right, yeah.

 

Neal [00:03:58] I should also

 

Jameela [00:03:59] The side effects went on for about a year?

 

Neal [00:04:00] Year. Yeah they did.

 

Jameela [00:04:01] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:04:01] I should also note that I was an atheist before I drank ayahuasca, and I had what I consider a God experience on ayahuasca. I now believe that, there is a central creation force of the universe. I didn’t particularly see anything, but I felt like I’m a part of a, I’m a basically a fractal of a larger thing. I’m a piece of a larger thing.

 

Jameela [00:04:23] And you can’t, you don’t tangibly know what that thing is.

 

Neal [00:04:26] No.

 

Jameela [00:04:26] You just feel connected to the universe.

 

Neal [00:04:28] Yeah. Which is so vague and so overused that I’m, I wish I had a better description of it, but it really is just a it’s like a, a feeling that’s not categorized.

 

Jameela [00:04:42] Is it like when you cum really hard? Is it like straight after you cum really hard? Is it like that? Is it euphoric and peaceful?

 

Neal [00:04:48] And it’s more I, I, I don’t remember pre-ayahuasca orgasms, but I would say I have had orgasms that were like I would, have I gone back to cave times during a few orgasms since? I have. Thanks for asking. I have gone back to

 

Jameela [00:05:07] Wait have your orgasms actually changed post-ayahuasca?

 

Neal [00:05:11] Yeah, I there are without getting too specific, there was a moment where my, I don’t let me just cut, make some edits within myself and say that there have been times where I’ve been to prehistoric times with the with a lady.

 

Jameela [00:05:35] The orgasm giver.

 

Neal [00:05:37] Yes. I don’t even know if it was during the orgasm if I want, if you want to take it up a notch.

 

Jameela [00:05:42] Was it several days later?

 

Neal [00:05:43] No, it was during. But it was, it was, it was, it was just, it was, you just go, and I was like, “Did you?” And she was like, “Yeah, what was that?” And I was like, “I don’t know.”

 

Jameela [00:05:53] Did you both go back to the same prehistoric era?

 

Neal [00:05:56] Well, we didn’t do drawings. We went on a

 

Jameela [00:05:59] Huge mistake. You learned nothing from cave paintings. That’s probably all cave paintings were was them both drawing out after sex

 

Neal [00:06:07] What happened

 

Jameela [00:06:07] What they both saw during an extraordinary shag.

 

Neal [00:06:10] There’s a lot of buffalos on there, so.

 

Jameela [00:06:12] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:06:12] Be careful, be careful.

 

Jameela [00:06:14] It was a different time, Neal.

 

Neal [00:06:15] It was a different, it really a very different time. So, so, yeah, so like that, I just, I just had I it’s spiritual. It’s all so embarrassing the language around it but

 

Jameela [00:06:31] It doesn’t sound embarrassing to me. It sound actually no different to what I now hear from all of my friends who’ve had babies, which is just this unexplainable love beyond love. Like love just feels like too reductive a term.

 

Neal [00:06:45] Love’s yeah, not profound enough.

 

Jameela [00:06:47] For for what that is, when you are looking at this baby, that is that is a part of you. And they say it’s like living with your heart outside of your body. And and they speak about it in this way that to me doesn’t actually feel appealing similarly to what you’re talking about, where I don’t feel I’m like, it’s better that I never know, and then I don’t know what I’m missing out on. I don’t have a curiosity about that feeling, but it sounds fucking amazing. And and it doesn’t actually, that would have sounded very surreal to me a few years ago, before all of my friends had had a similar, almost godlike revelation around their own children.

 

Neal [00:07:22] I had, I mean, I don’t know what this is. It’s not an, it’s not like a normal human emotion. It’s like, it’s like being in a profound stream of consciousness that’s not even that is just nauseating. But, like, it’s just not anger, happy, sad. It’s none of, it’s none of like the the emotion tree. It’s just like some other thing. And it’s not really analogous to anything.

 

Jameela [00:07:46] Okay.

 

Neal [00:07:46] It’s not like, “Oh, it reminds me of,” it doesn’t remind me of anything.

 

Jameela [00:07:50] And how has the feeling of now embracing the idea of a God, even if you don’t know exactly what that God is or and you don’t have a religion.

 

Neal [00:07:58] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:07:58] With, I don’t think you are religious?

 

Neal [00:08:00] No.

 

Jameela [00:08:01] And so you don’t have a particular way of practicing or a name for this, this feeling, so how has that impacted the way you feel? Has it impacted the way you feel?

 

Neal [00:08:11] Yeah, I don’t take anti-depressants anymore. And in terms of interactions

 

Jameela [00:08:15] Wait are you saying you don’t take anti-depressants because you feel a connection to God? Or are you saying you don’t take anti-depressants anymore because these different things that have shaken your, I guess, your neurology, and your wiring, etc., they have meant that you feel balanced in a way where you no longer need to take anti-depressants?

 

Neal [00:08:33] I would say the latter, meaning the neurology is different and the synapses are different, which it’s proven to do, like ayahuasca in studies has proven to do that, so it it it’s neurogenic I believe is the word. It creates new neurons, which is the only thing on Earth that they have found that does it.

 

Jameela [00:08:50] Is there anything dangerous about ayahuasca? Because I’m just wondering why everyone doesn’t do it.

 

Neal [00:08:55] It’s it’s dangerous in that, you know, I’ve seen people get possessed on ayahuasca. Oh, that’s pretty dangerous.

 

Jameela [00:09:02] Would you elaborate on that?

 

Neal [00:09:04] Speaking in tongues, taking swings at people.

 

Jameela [00:09:07] Simon Amstell was on here talking about ayahuasca and said that he took all his clothes off and then started fingering his perineum, which is the gooch.

 

Neal [00:09:17] Oh, I know what it is.

 

Jameela [00:09:19] But I’m talking to anyone else who doesn’t.

 

Neal [00:09:20] The taint for Americans.

 

Jameela [00:09:21] Yeah. The Gooch for north Londoners. He was doing that, and he realized afterwards in his kind of like, post ayahuasca epiphany that sexual shame, because he’s a gay man, has always been a huge issue for him. And that was him releasing that sexual shame. And the woman next to him was going like, “Excuse me, I don’t think you should be doing that, actually.” And he just didn’t give a shit. He was like, “Fuck off, I’m having an epiphany.” So it can really do extraordinary things.

 

Neal [00:09:48] Yeah. I’ve seen people run around naked. I’ve seen like, that is disruptive. But, it is, I think it was dual, a dual action where it changed my neurons and made me aware of a central creation force, and maybe one is a result of the other. I don’t know what did what. But I know that I am, I don’t take life as literally.

 

Jameela [00:10:11] Yeah. Paint a picture of who you feel like you were four years ago.

 

Neal [00:10:16] I was gorgeous, make no mistake. Not one thing has changed.

 

Jameela [00:10:22] Mhm.

 

Neal [00:10:23] No, I was just, kind of caustic and probably dismissive because of it. And but also protecting myself from getting my feelings hurt.

 

Jameela [00:10:35] What does caustic mean?

 

Neal [00:10:36] Caustic meaning like embittered or or sort of like snide, but not quite snide. Like not mean spirited, just more like dismissive or or superior?

 

Jameela [00:10:47] It was, it was self-protective.

 

Neal [00:10:49] Yeah, yeah.

 

Jameela [00:10:49] That’s what you were doing. It was just like your shell or your, it was like porcupine spikes.

 

Neal [00:10:52] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:10:53] They weren’t there to hurt anyone else. They were just there to protect you.

 

Neal [00:10:56] They did though.

 

Jameela [00:10:57] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:10:57] I mean, they or they they certainly turn people off, so which is fine, but I it’s not the thing with all these things that I’ve come to realize, like it’s bad for me. It’s not it is bad for other people, but it’s also like, it’s not even self-interested to do it. It’s like you’re working against yourself and everyone. And now I’m more able to love, and I’m more sort of probably patient. It’s it’s really helped my overall nervous system and it’s helped me, it’s easier to be me minute to minute. Do you know what I mean?

 

Jameela [00:11:33] Do you feel like this is the first time since you were young you’ve actually gotten to know you? Because the funny thing is, is that when we’re going through life, we feel like this is the real me.

 

Neal [00:11:42] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:11:42] And then you uncover a new layer and you’re like no, no, no, who was that guy? This is the new me.

 

Neal [00:11:47] Yeah. Yes.

 

Jameela [00:11:48] Every January, I make the same fucking announcement.

 

Neal [00:11:52] Yeah, I should be, I should be ripped and go to the gym. And I’m cutting all the toxic people out of my life.

 

Jameela [00:11:58] Yeah, yeah.

 

Neal [00:11:59] It’s like I don’t. I wouldn’t disavow my stuff I made or you know what I mean? But, like, I don’t

 

Jameela [00:12:06] No. Don’t you dare. It’s great fucking work.

 

Neal [00:12:07] So so I don’t I that I’m not, it’s just easier

 

Jameela [00:12:10] I don’t mean that about myself either. I just more meant that like it, once you uncover who you are underneath all this trauma that a lot of which has been inherited from someone else’s shit that they’ve poured all over you, normally a parent or, you know, bullies at school. When you’re when you finally removed the debris of what someone else has put on you, they’ve thrown their trauma at you, and it’s just it’s taken years to locate it and pull it out and pull it off. That’s when you get to your real self. And I think the real self is the one who is as close as to who we were as children as possible, like when we were still innocent, when we still had hope, when we were still open. And it’s taken me until very recently to find that person again. And it’s so funny how much of our youth we spend waiting desperately to be older and how now, as an older person, all I’m trying to do is get back to that innocence.

 

Neal [00:13:01] Yeah, but and also,

 

Jameela [00:13:02] And the authenticity.

 

Neal [00:13:03] That’s one of the only, it’s like your body degrades, but your spirit gets healthier and fitter.

 

Jameela [00:13:10] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:13:10] Because you it’s one of the, one of the great paradoxes that we all live in.

 

Jameela [00:13:15] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:13:16] But, yes.

 

Jameela [00:13:17] Hope everyone’s enjoying all this wisdom.

 

Neal [00:13:18] Oh, fuck. Are you recording this? Fucking thank God. No, the listeners, are they recording?

 

Jameela [00:13:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hope so.

 

Neal [00:13:25] I’d save a separate phone. I also want to say like, it kind of just happened from drinking and then drinking the ayahuasca 15 times or so and then smoking the DMT like I as much as I would love to say, like I went to a mountain and I studied with monks, I didn’t.

 

Jameela [00:13:50] You did all those things you also did therapy.

 

Neal [00:13:50] I was, I always made an effort. I also yeah, and I did TMS and I did EMDR and I did Zoloft and I

 

Jameela [00:13:59] TMS is?

 

Neal [00:14:00] Transcranial magnetic stimulation. I did it in America. I did it in China. I’ve done it everywhere. I’ve like tried

 

Jameela [00:14:05] There’s literally no greater crash test dummy than Neal Brennan.

 

Neal [00:14:08] I will, if there’s a if there’s a treatment I will take.

 

Jameela [00:14:10] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:14:12] I did ketamine, I did and I and it so

 

Jameela [00:14:15] Is it supervised ketamine not fun club ketamine?

 

Neal [00:14:18] No.

 

Jameela [00:14:18] Yes.

 

Neal [00:14:19] And so I did everything before ayahuasca and DMT. And I’m not saying you even need to, like, try, exhaust your options. That was just the or it wasn’t available.

 

Jameela [00:14:28] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:14:29] So I feel better overall as a person. I feel like all of the the feeling resolved about work and feeling resolved about personal things, I’m less grudgy. I’m less, I’m just it’s just like I feel like I, somebody, I took the backpack off or it was taken off of me because I used to yell in therapy

 

Jameela [00:14:52] What was in the backpack?

 

Neal [00:14:54] That I would yell in therapy like, “It’s in my body. It’s, this is in my body.”

 

Jameela [00:14:59] What was in your body?

 

Neal [00:15:00] Just heaviness. Shame. Anger.

 

Jameela [00:15:03] Fear.

 

Neal [00:15:04] Fear. But more anger. It was like I, it was more anger. It was also grudge holding, you know, just seeing the world as as, like a grievance mechanism and and be, and it just kind of lifted, you know, and like, I didn’t, I not like I didn’t work for it or whatever, but but it kind of lifted and, and, it’s I’m bet like the reason the show the Netflix is more obvious because I’m different.

 

Jameela [00:15:37] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:15:37] I’m a different, the jokes are no better or worse, maybe 5% better. But like spiritually, I’m more enjoyable to be around.

 

Jameela [00:15:46] Yeah. And I do want to talk about the show, but before I do, I find it so important to take this opportunity to let people know that, like Neil and I are no spring chickens. You are how old?

 

Neal [00:15:57] We don’t talk about it.

 

Jameela [00:15:58] Okay.

 

Neal [00:16:00] It’s not cute. It’s not cute.

 

Jameela [00:16:03] Okay. But the reason I ask you that is just because there are there’s, you know, increasing stories around, like, people euthanizing themselves because they’re 25 and they have mental health problems, and it’s each their own and everyone to do what they want with their lives. But there is an increasing feeling of and discussion of hopelessness from young people, and from people of all kinds of ages. And you genuinely like I have felt even four years ago, I felt like I was never going to get better.

 

Neal [00:16:32] Mhm.

 

Jameela [00:16:33] You know, there are just these moments where you hit a wall and you, you can’t imagine, and there aren’t many stories of someone actually mapping out their recovery and how they got there and what they did and everything they tried and what worked and what didn’t work. And stories like yours are so important because we have so few role models. Either we have a bunch of true lunatics.

 

Neal [00:16:54] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:16:54] For celebrities who pretend they’re fine from the beginning, and then just keep that act up as long as they can until they murder someone.

 

Neal [00:17:01] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:17:01] But other than that, we don’t really have a lot of role models who really tell the full truth. And the reason your work spoke to me is because I turned it on and I was like, this is like the it’s a it’s an incredible comedy show, but it’s like the greatest Ted talk also about sadness that I’d ever seen, and I just felt immediately understood. And that’s, I cold emailed you and we became friends and blah, blah, blah.

 

Neal [00:17:21] This was the Netflix 3 mics.

 

Jameela [00:17:23] This is 3 mics, which is truly, I think, honestly, one of the great works of art. But then, of the week of that week that it came out.

 

Neal [00:17:31] Shut up. Yep, great.

 

Jameela [00:17:33] And then and then you moved onto

 

Neal [00:17:35] It’s a great week.

 

Jameela [00:17:35] Yeah. And then you moved on to Blocks, which was another fucking fantastic show.

 

Neal [00:17:41] Which you came and saw twice, which I’m, anyone who comes and sees me live is my friend forever.

 

Jameela [00:17:45] I know, I know. I do think people think I am your stalker or your comedy stalker.

 

Neal [00:17:49] We’ll see.

 

Jameela [00:17:50] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:17:51] We’ll see.

 

Jameela [00:17:51] But that was great because again, you had evolved to this new place and you seemed like very, you know.

 

Neal [00:17:58] Spirutally, I was better. But I’d written a script where I had, it was like a year there was like a year and a half delay, but I was I it was trying to I it was more about like, yearning to change.

 

Jameela [00:18:11] Yes. But you were still, what I’m what I’m saying is that you weren’t professing to be fine.

 

Neal [00:18:16] Right.

 

Jameela [00:18:16] That you were showing signs of that whatever work you’d done since 3 mics was clearly working, and you were becoming more self-aware and more self introspective and more thoughtful about the world. And then this special comes along, Crazy Good, and you are in significantly better mental health shape.

 

Neal [00:18:35] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:18:35] And talking about it and owning it and A) that’s just great for the world to see but B) that’s quite an interesting move in an industry where we know that there is profit to be had when you just purge all of your suffering publicly, right?

 

Neal [00:18:49] Yes.

 

Jameela [00:18:49] Because then people find you relatable. It doesn’t matter that you’re a celebrity or you’re a famous writer. It’s like, I can relate to this guy. You are, you are distancing yourself from that level of, I guess, like sad relatability.

 

Neal [00:19:04] Mhm.

 

Jameela [00:19:04] And you’re not allowing yourself to fear that you will lose fans if you tell the truth that you’re feeling happier.

 

Neal [00:19:11] I had, there’s a disclaimer at the beginning of the show.

 

Jameela [00:19:13] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:19:13] Because a guy came to the show and was like, “I kept waiting for you to arrive,” and it’s like one of the early shows. And I was like, I was like, so it’s basically he was upset I wasn’t upset.

 

Jameela [00:19:25] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:19:25] And but I put the disclaimer on and figured out a way to get a laugh from it, so it’s like, I don’t mind. But I will say putting that on made the whole show lighter because people were like, “Okay, we can just, I don’t have to worry that this is going to get weird.”

 

Jameela [00:19:40] Yeah, I’m not going to cry.

 

Neal [00:19:41] Yeah, I’m not going to, I don’t have to. I can just be, we can go eat after this.

 

Jameela [00:19:44] Let’s talk about the commodification of sadness and trauma.

 

Neal [00:19:47] Please.

 

Jameela [00:19:48] Because that is happening, and it is everywhere. And it has been really bizarre to be online and go from a period where everyone pretended to be completely happy and fine and only showcase the best versions of their lives.

 

Neal [00:20:02] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:20:02] To now people setting up a camera to record a nervous breakdown and to, you know, record crying in the car and all these different things. And I don’t know if I’m the one to say whether that’s okay or not okay. But I definitely think that it’s dangerous. You know, I have a boyfriend who’s a musician, and he is someone who came up singing very, very sad songs. And his songs have become happier and more empowered.

 

Neal [00:20:26] Right.

 

Jameela [00:20:26] And some people have had, like a problem with that.

 

Neal [00:20:29] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:20:30] But more people have preferred it. But I notice when he is talking to artists who come over who he’s working with. Some of them are afraid to work on their mental health because they think that’s what keeps them special, that’s what keeps their creativity bubbling away. We’ve had conversations about this for years, about how many of the comedians and singers and artists that we know are deliberately hanging on to their trauma, or onto their pain and their addiction and their bad habits because they think that’s what gives them the quote unquote edge.

 

Neal [00:21:01] Right. It’s like the actors that are overweight and known for being overweight, so they don’t want to get skinny because they’ll lose parts. And it’s like, no. Melissa McCarthy kept crushing when she lost it. Like, there’s plenty of people that it’s it’s more people die from bad mental health, then lose their edge from good mental health.

 

Jameela [00:21:24] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:21:24] Like I can’t think of anyone who’s lost their edge from good mental health. Like I’m better now.

 

Jameela [00:21:31] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:21:31] And I I because the the the talent is a reflex. It’s like, you know, it’s like it’s like, whatever. It’s it’s I just will write a joke, I don’t

 

Jameela [00:21:43] Yeah, well, to be fair, there’s like an answer within that, which is basically that I think adversity is what births a lot of great art, right? Adverse, adversity gives you the muscles to, because normally an artistic expression comes from not always but often, intensive artistic expression comes from a lack of feeling like you have a way to communicate. So you find this different way to communicate your feelings, whether it’s music or painting or comedy or, you know, whatever. And so I do think that, you know, and also like a lot of great art comes out of these like bustling, problematic cities where everyone’s living on top of each other. Very little art comes out of very comfortable, luxurious places. And so I do think that adversity can kind of cut the diamond. But I don’t think you then need to, I think once you’ve learned that skill set, then I don’t think you need to stay in pain to be able to access that skill.

 

Neal [00:22:39] Yeah. I also think, I think there are people who, James might be a good example or a super boyfriend. Or or like, Vincent Van Gogh or somebody who, you know, like people that are

 

Jameela [00:22:52] Oh my God. James almost fucking love it being like James and Picasso and

 

Neal [00:22:54] I know I’m trying to like, come up with somebody worse.

 

Jameela [00:22:56] And Vincent Van Gogh, his peers.

 

Neal [00:22:58] And yes.

 

Jameela [00:22:58] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:22:59] Yes. And, and, Mr. Brainwash from the Banksy documentary. Cut that. He’s a fucking horrible artist.

 

Jameela [00:23:10] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:23:10] No, I was going to say, so there are people I believe the biggest driver of, of, work from artists is status seeking. I just really think that. I think most of the artists I know who made a big move creatively was because they wanted more status. And I think there are people like, but I think James wanted status. I think I wanted status. I could name every comedian I know you’re like, especially the guys, but I would think the women qualify as well. It’s like you’re, we’re all low status, right?

 

Jameela [00:23:49] Well, what do you qualify as status?

 

Neal [00:23:53] It’s called status. I qualify high public regard. And it could be wealth. It could be respect,

 

Jameela [00:24:04] Power.

 

Neal [00:24:04] Power. I think that as much as sort of self-expression, I think if you, I think if, if, if most people I know who’ve been successful, I think it’s I think a lot of it’s a lot of it’s ambition and they’re and they’re and they’re great artists because I can’t say like it’s garbage because they had the wrong reason. It’s like, no, a lot of guys do it to meet women. Sorry, sorry.

 

Jameela [00:24:35] Haha!

 

Neal [00:24:35] A lot of guys make great art to meet hot women.

 

Jameela [00:24:39] I will say, I will say I have heard that from a lot of men.

 

Neal [00:24:42] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:24:43] Yeah. That is fair.

 

Neal [00:24:43] Some of your favorite artists are doing it for easy sexual access to women. It’s it’s gross, and it, but it doesn’t make the art any worse. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn’t affect it.

 

Jameela [00:24:56] I agree with you. And I disagree with at the same time. I agree with some of what you said. I especially agree with the to meet women. But wait then what is the, is the motivation the same for women who are artists?

 

Neal [00:25:07] Yeah, I think

 

Jameela [00:25:07] Are they looking to meet men?

 

Neal [00:25:08] Yeah. I don’t think they’re looking at meet men. I think they’re looking to, I was talking to a friend of mine, and I said, I go, “I know what my I, my ambition is I’m trying to get a house to get a hot tub and to get a bunch of chicks in the hot tub.” Not literally, but just proverbially, right? And and and I it’s like, what is your my ambition? She’s in show business. And then she didn’t she didn’t answer. And then three years later I saw her and she goes, “You know what my motivation is, I don’t want to have to get in the hot tub.”

 

Jameela [00:25:43] Hahaha! So good.

 

Neal [00:25:48] And I was like,

 

Jameela [00:25:48] That’s what I, yeah. I think because I think that some women are like, this is a road to A) express myself and B), be completely independent and empowered.

 

Neal [00:25:57] Yeah, and not have to rely on men for anything.

 

Jameela [00:26:00] Oh, that’s so fucking good.

 

Neal [00:26:00] And it’s not even man hating. It’s not even man hating. It’s just like, yeah it’s, yes what, it’s 2024. Like you can you don’t, who wants to absolutely depend on someone, let alone someone from an entirely different gender who’s a man and is generally hostile toward you? Who wants who would pursue that? So it’s like, let me just get myself squared away and then I’ll and then I’ll and then I might have a shot at a good relationship with a guy.

 

Jameela [00:26:27] Yeah. Yeah. And listen, I don’t think I’m, I don’t think of myself as a particularly creative person. I know I work within the creative arts, so I don’t, but I don’t think I’ve ever been able to really, you know, when it’s you, me, and James on the couch chatting about all this stuff, I’m never able to fully relate to the discussion of the need to have output. I, I, I don’t think that I, I don’t resonate with that, and so therefore I’m not an authority. But what I would say is that I think, I think there’s a spectrum right within artists of some people genuinely at starting because they just want to get something out of them.

 

Neal [00:27:01] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:27:01] They have an idea, they have a creativity.

 

Neal [00:27:02] Yeah, like I all I’ve been funny since I was little, so like whatever that is.

 

Jameela [00:27:05] And so I think, so I think there are lots of artists in this world who make art even just for themselves, right? Who just who just had an outlet. I don’t think it’s always I don’t think we can always not pervert, but I don’t think we can always bastardize that.

 

Neal [00:27:19] I do, I would like to-

 

Jameela [00:27:21] Wait, wait, wait, but where I think you’re right, is that the people who we end up seeing a lot in the newspapers or seeing at certain parties and at red carpets, like the people who have made it to the very top of the industry. That is very, very likely short of a psychosis that takes them there. So the people who become superstars, I absolutely believe, are massively dealing with an injury of, I wasn’t popular at school or I wasn’t popular at home, I didn’t have love from my mom. I’ve literally verbatim heard from one of the biggest pop stars of all time that my mother didn’t love me, and so now I need the love of the entire world. And that’s why they go around playing stadiums.

 

Neal [00:27:57] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:27:58] Again and again and again.

 

Neal [00:27:59] And I don’t blame them.

 

Jameela [00:28:00] And instead they should just fucking chill because how much money do you need.

 

Neal [00:28:02] We’ll see.

 

Jameela [00:28:02] It’s not about money at this point. It’s not about the fame. It’s about the the constant access to an amount of love that is just never enough.

 

Neal [00:28:11] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:28:11] Because it can never sait that, so I agree that there’s a level of trauma that leads to super success, but I don’t think artistry is always born of status that’s all.

 

Neal [00:28:21] I well, I don’t know of any artists who don’t showcase their work.

 

Jameela [00:28:25] Well, you tend to not meet anyone who was isn’t the A-list.

 

Neal [00:28:27] But no, I don’t. I know, I’m saying I don’t know anyone who’s just painting and putting them in the closet.

 

Jameela [00:28:32] I do. Or there are people who don’t want to, hang on a second like, let’s just be fair. There are some people who don’t want to work in a boring job. If you can make money off your hobby, you’re going to try and make some money off your hobby. That’s what the whole of Etsy is built off of.

 

Neal [00:28:45] Right, maybe it’s good that, will you give me that that might be a little

 

Jameela [00:28:48] They’re not all looking for status on Etsy.

 

Neal [00:28:49] They’d rather be number one than number 19. That’s, or they’d rather make number one money. There’s

 

Jameela [00:28:54] I don’t know. If I can speak for just, and I know, I’m not a creative person. But when I was offered a job on television, I didn’t have any particular desire to be famous. In fact, I really don’t feel comfortable with fame, and I didn’t have a desire to be adored or approved of by anyone, but it was 1,000 pounds a day versus that’s what I made in a month as a teacher. So I was like, “Well, that’s great. This is really fun and I love interviewing people, and now I get paid loads to do it and don’t have to do the really hard job where I get shit every day from my students.”

 

Neal [00:29:27] Right. And I could make a case and I don’t, we’re already sort of sidetracked, but that is a form of status to me.

 

Jameela [00:29:34] What do you mean?

 

Neal [00:29:35] It’s, it’s ease of income.

 

Jameela [00:29:38] But that’s not, that’s not about status. That’s also just about generally wanting more hours that you get to control in your life than wanting to do something bureaucratic.

 

Neal [00:29:43] Yeah, I get it. Yes, but I would put, I would put it under the same umbrella.

 

Jameela [00:29:48] Do you know that we’ve never had a conversation ever where we don’t end up in an argument?

 

Neal [00:29:50] Of course.

 

Jameela [00:29:50] Haha!

 

Neal [00:29:51] What’s the point? But I would like to say it’s a foolish notion, and it’s the thing of like, I don’t want to I if I get quote unquote healthy, I’ll lose my edge is just pure laziness. It’s just pure laziness. It’s born out of like, I don’t want to have to do go to therapy.

 

Jameela [00:30:12] Well, it’s not just laziness. I think it’s also, I’d agree with you it’s laziness

 

Neal [00:30:14] And fear.

 

Jameela [00:30:14] But, but it’s fear, but it’s also, I think, the way that we have glamorized sad and suicidal people.

 

Neal [00:30:21] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:30:22] Look at the 27 club, which for anyone who doesn’t know is

 

Neal [00:30:25] Corniest shit in the world.

 

Jameela [00:30:25] Is so the most offensive dickhead shit ever. But, you know, we’ve taken these young geniuses who die at their most beautiful and, like, you know, just at the beginning before they even have an opportunity to to plateau.

 

Neal [00:30:38] Beautiful corpse.

 

Jameela [00:30:39] Yeah, to to plateau or have a mediocre moment this like, everything’s perfect, and then they’re out. They leave while everyone’s still at the party. And then the way that we’ve glamorized them through photography and storytelling and, and turned into, you know, the sign that almost if you die at 27, then you’re a great, you know, the just the, the posthumous legacy wanking of it all. And so I also think a lot of people are victims of that.

 

Neal [00:31:04] Yeah, it is messaging somewhat. I just think it’s basically like the same reason people were anti-vaxx because they didn’t want to have to get vaccinated. It’s like, I don’t want to have to get a needle, and I don’t want to have to go to therapy and talk about my feelings. And it’s embarrassing and it’s time consuming and it’s a bunch of other stuff. When what I’m doing is working, that my system now is it’s it’s there’s a creative output.

 

Jameela [00:31:29] I disagree, I think it’s more supers, don’t you think it’s also potentially quite superstitious, right?

 

Neal [00:31:33] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:31:33] It’s like, you know, like the basketballers who like need to like, touch someone’s head just before they go and play a game.

 

Neal [00:31:37] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:31:38] To me, it it seems not just like it could be, I mean, again, we can’t make sweeping statements. It’s going to be different for everyone, but I think that for a lot of people it’s superstitious. It’s like, this is what got me here. I don’t want to abandon, you know, I think people with followings do it. I have a friend who, you know, came up on the internet and she, as as someone who was very open about her mental health struggles, and she told me that every time she posts something happy or herself.

 

Neal [00:32:04] Loses followers.

 

Jameela [00:32:05] Looking nice, she loses, like, thousands of followers.

 

Neal [00:32:08] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:32:08] And so there is something to that.

 

Neal [00:32:10] Well, that’s

 

Jameela [00:32:11] I’m terrified of that, but what you have learned, it’s not fucking worth it. That nothing is fucking worth staying in the shit.

 

Neal [00:32:18] I’m doing comedy

 

Jameela [00:32:20] You have been trying to fight your way out.

 

Neal [00:32:20] Yes.

 

Jameela [00:32:21] Since I’ve known you.

 

Neal [00:32:22] I’m doing comedy to feel happy.

 

Jameela [00:32:25] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:32:25] So, and my friend Bijan, the first time I did ayahuasca was like, “Are we going to be able to be capitalists after this?”

 

Jameela [00:32:32] As in now you’re saying now you do comedy to be happy? I thought you were doing it for

 

Neal [00:32:34] No, no, I’ve always been doing comedy for status, happiness, expression.

 

Jameela [00:32:38] And boobies.

 

Neal [00:32:39] And of course, the hot tub. I had to, I need bodies for the hot tub, and

 

Jameela [00:32:45] I can’t imagine you’re very comfortable in a hot tub surrounded by

 

Neal [00:32:49] Spoken like someone who’s never been in the hot tub with Neal Brennan.

 

Jameela [00:32:53] Haha!

 

Neal [00:32:53] So what I what I was doing it to improve my mood.

 

Jameela [00:32:57] Right.

 

Neal [00:32:57] Do you know what I mean? It’s a it’s a bunch of things, but one of them is like, I this is to improve my mood. And if I don’t need to improve my mood, I won’t, then I won’t do comedy anymore. Like, I’m not going to do even the the financial considerations of like making a living and stuff. It’s like I’ll just make a different living. I was willing to risk it not being able to, not wanting to do comedy, by trying to feel better, by outside of comedy, therapeutically, so to speak.

 

Jameela [00:33:26] Yeah, I think it’s I think it’s imperative.

 

Neal [00:33:28] And live with the results.

 

Jameela [00:33:29] I’d do anything for sanity. I’d give up anything.

 

Neal [00:33:34] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:33:34] For sanity. Truly. There’s there’s nothing that the, we still just don’t, we talk about it all the time, but we really don’t place any importance that true importance of like what would you what would you be willing to risk or give up to just have a sound mind.

 

Neal [00:33:50] Yeah. I and I did risk I kind of did risk sanity.

 

Jameela [00:33:54] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:33:54] And I mean I didn’t realize it, but like the DMT was, you know, it was real touch and go, so, and I’m not a hero for doing that. It was desperation and like probably some risk taking chemicals or whatever. But like I, I was like, I’m not gonna I don’t want to stay pat when there’s things you, I could do. And I should also say, like I did have some money to pursue some of these things. None of none of them were that expensive, but like, I don’t assume that I don’t I don’t, that’s not important.

 

Jameela [00:34:27] Not everyone has shame in money. Yeah.

 

Neal [00:34:28] Right. You don’t have, you know, money to buy the white outfit that you have to wear, things like that. Although, you know

 

Jameela [00:34:34] Also all the bracelets, Neal.

 

Neal [00:34:35] I mean, the number of bracelets and, you got to get. Yeah, but the you do save when you carpool because it’s very hip, very hip or fun.

 

Jameela [00:34:43] That’s good. So one of the themes that you bring up in your show, Crazy Good, the one that’s out now. And it is it’s a it’s a great it’s a great show, not without its controversies, of course. One of which is the fact that you say that people are using the term alluding to the idea that people use trauma, they abuse the term trauma. And you don’t agree with that. Can you elaborate on how you feel about it?

 

Neal [00:35:17] Yes. Thank you. Good job not getting it on you.

 

Jameela [00:35:21] No, it’s not that. It’s just I don’t want to paraphrase you incorrectly. It’s slightly very cringe.

 

Neal [00:35:23] And no, it was basically we’re just, everyone just says trauma for everything. Everything’s trauma, so, like they say, if everything’s trauma, nothing’s trauma. If, if someone can just declare an invisible affliction, then we all have to take your word for it, and, but we also know, like, everyone lies all the time. So the good thing if you say my arm is fractured, you can get an x ray. And then they go, yeah, it’s fractured. Whereas if you go, I have trauma. There’s no way I can prove it or disprove it.

 

Jameela [00:35:52] But that’s true of any mental illness, and you wouldn’t have wanted to have been invalidated for the severe depression or anxiety that you had.

 

Neal [00:36:00] Yeah, but there are, if you’re talking about PTSD.

 

Jameela [00:36:04] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:36:04] Yeah, fine. I’m not I’m not invalidating,  if you go to a licensed therapist and they diagnose you with PTSD, I’ll take word for it. If you go on TikTok and say, I so have PTSD. I don’t, that’s not anything. And also there’s people

 

Jameela [00:36:21] What is PTSD To you?

 

Neal [00:36:22] I my definition of PTSD is a and it’s it’s clinically it’s changed. It used to be a physical thing. If something physical happened to you, you and you

 

Jameela [00:36:35] As in the trauma was physical?

 

Neal [00:36:37] Yes. And you were, it affected your nervous system in a way, in the long term way beyond what, way beyond like

 

Jameela [00:36:45] Like a soldier coming back from war, and you hear a car backfiring, and they have a nervous breakdown.

 

Neal [00:36:50] Yes. That that was the definition. And then I still, that’s still my definition. They changed it in the DSM two, the diagnostic, whatever the, it’s the therapy book.

 

Jameela [00:37:03] The diagnostic sexy manual.

 

Neal [00:37:05] Thank you.

 

Jameela [00:37:05] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:37:06] They changed it in the 70s to include kind of anything. Now we there were people that argued that was for business reason, like to be like, “Ah, let’s let in more people.” So I’m of the mind that it should be some physical that you’re responding to, and and it’s not just trauma, it’s gaslighting, it’s narcissism. It’s all these things that people just heard. It’s a thing I can throw on myself, and I’m, it’s like a it’s a safe word, so to speak. Like I’m trauma so you can’t say you can’t, hold me to any standard whatsoever behavior.

 

Jameela [00:37:45] I, I have, banned the term gaslighting from my home unless there is proof that there is or at least unless there is evidence that someone’s actively trying to convince you that you are insane.

 

Neal [00:37:58] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:37:58] Because I think we use that two different ways. Two people recall something differently, and they’re disagreeing on it briefly, that is not the same as gaslighting. It’s a very dangerous thing to accuse someone that you love or trust of. And I started using it too easily and James using it to easily and our roommates using it too easily. It’s like all my friends were, and I was like, that’s it. Now, when I’m in any context, in any environment, unless unless we can say pointedly that someone has an active motive to try to convince you that you’ve lost your mind

 

Neal [00:38:26] Yes, it’s an ongoing narrative.

 

Jameela [00:38:28] I don’t want to hear the term gaslighting.

 

Neal [00:38:30] Correct. Otherwise it’s just lying.

 

Jameela [00:38:32] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:38:32] You just lied.

 

Jameela [00:38:33] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:38:34] Yeah. And also, I would say they shouldn’t be able to use it unless they watch the movie Gaslight, which no one’s going to do.

 

Jameela [00:38:40] Which is where it originated from.

 

Neal [00:38:42] Yes. Which, by the way, great movie. Angela Lansbury, one of the stars. It’s a very old movie. I think it’s from 47 or 51 or something. So again, that’s maybe that’s an old man talking. We don’t talk about it. So yeah, all of these terms are meaningless. They’re just meaningless because it’s it’s like saying, “I was assaulted.” No you weren’t. Someone bumped you as they were walking past you. It’s just going, if you, it’s like, “Oh no, he assaulted me.” No, no they didn’t. That was a bump. But everyone wants to use these terms to put themselves in a category that that gets some different, better treatment on social media.

 

Jameela [00:39:25] So I learned this term recently, it’s called The Illusion of Explanatory Depth. And it perfectly explains what you’re talking about. And generally what I think is wrong with our generation, which is that we have too much information for our brains literally to be able to carry and withstand. And so we’re able to only hold headlines and soundbites, and we’re not able to delve deeply into all these different subjects from all over the world and all these different social infrastructures. And so we have these, these strong opinions about things that if we’re pushed to really define and explain, we wouldn’t be able to. We have the illusion of

 

Neal [00:40:06] Right.

 

Jameela [00:40:06] Explanatory depth. And that, to me is a crisis because it’s leading to so many misleading conversations and it’s leading to us then thinking he gaslit me. Gaslighting is something that malignant narcissists do when they’re trying to control you. And now you start to look at that person because you’ve associated them with gaslighting, and maybe you’ve just remembered something differently, the two of you. Maybe you’re having a disagreement, maybe you have a completely different perspective on something, and now you are seeing someone really vile and dangerous who is just someone you had a difference of opinion with. And so there’s a danger to this illusion of explanatory depth because it means constant miscommunication and us misjudging each other frequently. And so while I can see why people get pissed off with the way that you talk about because you’re slightly dismissive, the way you’re talking about people self diagnosing

 

Neal [00:40:57] Yeah, you know, or you could say, I’m protecting people that have real trauma.

 

Jameela [00:41:02] Totally.

 

Neal [00:41:02] Like real like real war in Iraq. And we’re in an IED attack in a Humvee.

 

Jameela [00:41:10] Yeah. And by the way, I’ve heard people with severe trauma feel very, very upset by the reductive, like, watering down of the term trauma, because then they feel like it’s all just lumped in together.

 

Neal [00:41:23] I’m with the soldiers.

 

Jameela [00:41:24] Right, okay. Haha!

 

Neal [00:41:26] As usual, I’m siding with the military, the the boys, the ladies and ladies. Yeah, I don’t, I’d rather side with the people with the affliction than the people who think I’m being dismissive of their minor affliction.

 

Jameela [00:41:41] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:41:41] I just I’m like, no, I’m selecting this group because they’re they have legitimate gripes. And this thing of like even saying it’s a crisis. It’s not a crisis. It’s like none of this is. It’s all everyone, it feels like everyone is doing even the language is is like Ted talk-y. Do you know what I mean? Like, there’s a crisis going on of this illusion of explanatory depth. It’s like, I don’t know if it’s a crisis like

 

Jameela [00:42:08] I consider it a crisis because I’m seeing everyone not be able to communicate with each other, not just online. It’s now coming offline. And people have stopped communicating with each other with kindness or grace, or proper information. It’s just fucking misinformation constantly, and everyone just with these half baked ideas. Which is just so ridiculous because they’re so often ill informed. And it’s something that I’ve done in the past, and it’s something that I try now to be very cognizant of and make sure that I don’t do because it only leads to absolute fucking chaos. And I don’t want to be part of the mayhem, but I’m saying it’s crisis.

 

Neal [00:42:40] I don’t even think it leads to chaos. It just leads to it just leads to silliness to me. But I don’t think it’s chaos.

 

Jameela [00:42:47] I think what we’re seeing socially

 

Neal [00:42:47] I don’t think the trauma thing is chaos.

 

Jameela [00:42:49] I think what we’re seeing socially is chaos.

 

Neal [00:42:51] I don’t I mean, which part of it I just don’t, chaos is too big a word for, like, it’s just a bunch of silliness.

 

Jameela [00:42:57] Well I would say chaos is is the mental health crisis and the suicide rates that we’re seeing amongst men and amongst very young people. That to me is chaos. That’s not silliness.

 

Neal [00:43:07] I, I see, I get it, but what I’m saying is it’s I don’t think.

 

Jameela [00:43:12] The loneliness epidemic is chaos.

 

Neal [00:43:13] Yeah, but I don’t think that has much to do with, with gaslighting or the term overuse of the term.

 

Jameela [00:43:21] No, no, no, I was talking about the illusion of explanatory depth. Like I’m saying that the fact that we use terms and also when we when we’re able to put a label on something then we don’t need to dig deep. When we put a headline on something, we don’t need to dig deep.

 

Neal [00:43:32] Yes.

 

Jameela [00:43:32] And and something that I’ve been talking about a lot on this podcast since Esther Perel said it, which is that people aren’t sick as much as we are in a sick society, and we are just having very normal reactions. There’s nothing wrong with us. We are in a society that pushes us to the edge, and then we have a very, very normal reaction to it, and then we get called sick and we think that we are individually problematic rather than all having a very, very standard response to a very odd world.

 

Neal [00:43:58] It’s, we’re

 

Jameela [00:43:59] And so if we do that, if we pathologize it

 

Neal [00:44:01] Phones and social media has destroyed humanity. That to me is like, it’s beyond a crisis. We destroyed ourselves.

 

Jameela [00:44:10] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:44:11] With the technology.

 

Jameela [00:44:12] So now you’re making a big dramatic statement, which I love.

 

Neal [00:44:15] You can’t even say. Yes, I

 

Jameela [00:44:17] Welcome. Welcome to drama.

 

Neal [00:44:17] Yeah, but I would say that that we’ve destroyed humanity. You can’t say who you’re voting for without people screaming at you. And not just, like, sort of fuck you, like real awful stuff. Like and and you can’t say which you can’t, you if you pick a side, you have to pick a side. And you will be abused verbally online in a way you can’t, you wouldn’t believe 20 years ago. You’d be like no one’s ever going to say that to me. Basically, to my face. They say it all day, every day. And they say to you as well. So I think that’s the that’s me that’s leading that to me is the loneliness epidemic plus family dissolution. And in like in just a society based on individual achievement, etc., etc.. There’s five things, but to me, the most obvious, most recent one is telephones and the social media.

 

Jameela [00:45:18] Yeah, totally. I see where you’re coming from. I think your delivery is ruthless because you are exhausted by it all. And I do think your heart is in the right place, and I do agree with a lot of what you’re saying. And it’s something that I’ve been again, talking to because I’m encouraging people to take their autonomy back and not write themselves off as a label, but instead go, “I feel uncomfortable. I’m going to, I’m not going to pathologize it. I’m going to investigate that discomfort, investigate my environment.” And I feel like what I’ve watched you do, even though you did have an incredibly traumatic childhood and an abusive childhood, you are someone who has been running towards the light from

 

Neal [00:45:59] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:45:59] I mean, from decades, I’m sure before I even knew you. You’d written 3 Mics before I even knew.

 

Neal [00:46:03] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:46:04] You have been, like a moth to a flame, looking for recovery and not looking to exist forever within a label or any diagnosis or any anything. Not that there’s anything wrong with a label or a diagnosis, but you have wanted to.

 

Neal [00:46:18] It’s a start. That’s the beginning. That’s like you have your your marathon jersey, like you are whatever you are, right?

 

Jameela [00:46:26] Mhm.

 

Neal [00:46:26] And then now, now you have to try to get better.

 

Jameela [00:46:30] Mhm.

 

Neal [00:46:30] And I tried dif many different marathons.

 

Jameela [00:46:33] Yeah. And I think it’s

 

Neal [00:46:34] 12 Step, you know, self-help whatever.

 

Jameela [00:46:36] And I personally find your work very reassuring and I find it empowering to watch you refuse to, refuse to stay in the dark if you can possibly get out. And that’s how I feel. And so I thank you.

 

Neal [00:46:51] Thank you for your support legitimately. And the thing that I want to say is there’s, you know, people talk about PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. They never talk about post-traumatic growth. There is such a thing. You never hear about it.

 

Jameela [00:47:05] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:47:05] But there’s the same it’s it PTSG or post-traumatic PTG, PTG. But you can grow from trauma. They never talk about it, but it’s as it’s real a thing as stress disorder.

 

Jameela [00:47:19] Yeah.

 

Neal [00:47:20] So and I’m not saying you’re weak if you don’t. But I’m just saying one, you can be, you can have PTSD and then go to PTG.

 

Jameela [00:47:30] Yeah. After that comes PTG.

 

Neal [00:47:31] For real. Which I, I would guess I have, even maybe they’re not even, affiliated, but, but I no longer I have trauma etc. or I, I experienced traumatic things. I think my PTSD from all the stuff I’ve done has lifted.

 

Jameela [00:47:52] That’s fucking amazing to hear.

 

Neal [00:47:54] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:47:54] And I feel the same way about you. No, about me.

 

Neal [00:47:58] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:47:58] It’s not my place to say how you feel.

 

Neal [00:48:00] You do?

 

Jameela [00:48:00] Yeah, yeah. I don’t feel like a traumatized person anymore. Especially after the last two years of making huge changes in my life. Similarly to you

 

Neal [00:48:07] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:48:07] I, I run towards the light with everything I can. And that is also a very privileged thing to be able to do because not everyone has the fucking time. Maybe they’ve got kids, maybe they’ve got responsibilities, or elderly parents look after, or they don’t have the money. But I feel the same way. I’m very, very happy for you. I’m happy that you’re encouraging it. What is one thing that you most hope people take away from your new special Crazy Good?

 

Neal [00:48:32] From the special. Probably that you can, you can change your essence. It’s not easy. It’s almost impossible, but you can. You can. I did it. Yeah, and I don’t, and it’s not like, and you’re weak if you don’t. I’m just saying it can be done. It it’s harrowing and sometimes dangerous, but it can be done. So if you just, you can A-B it.

 

Jameela [00:49:03] And now you’re so nice and cheerful and

 

Neal [00:49:07] By the way somebody had to as much as we talk about the the insults we bear online. Somebody had a really nice one on me.

 

Jameela [00:49:13] Oh no, what did they say?

 

Neal [00:49:16] They said, it was a comment on a clip, they said, “Why, why he stand like Woody from Toy Story?”

 

Jameela [00:49:23] Oh my God, I can hear my producer screaming with laughter through the plexiglass.

 

Neal [00:49:26] I know, I can hear it too. She should.

 

Jameela [00:49:27] Hahaha!

 

Neal [00:49:29] I, I don’t, and the answer is, I don’t know, son. I don’t know why I stand like that, but I, but you’re right. I sure do.

 

Jameela [00:49:36] Hahaha! Oh, God that’s true.

 

Neal [00:49:38] It’s, in fact, he just said why he stand like Woody, and I knew what he meant.

 

Jameela [00:49:42] Hahahahahahahaha. That is great. It’s good. It’s good. It’s good to stay humble. You know what I mean?

 

Neal [00:49:48] Yeah. Keep it real.

 

Jameela [00:49:50] But, yeah, now you’re like, you used to be anti-relationships. Now you’re pro relationships. You were on Fallon talking about enjoying hanging out with

 

Neal [00:49:59] Babies.

 

Jameela [00:49:59] The baby? Well, if you say it just like that, you’re a man of Hollywood.

 

Neal [00:50:03] Right.

 

Jameela [00:50:03] With a with a lady and her baby.

 

Neal [00:50:06] Correct.

 

Jameela [00:50:08] And enjoying the sort of father adjacent

 

Neal [00:50:11] Half, yeah, half-dad.

 

Jameela [00:50:12] Aspect of of like having that connection with a kid. And that is not something I ever in my lifetime thought I would hear from you.

 

Neal [00:50:22] I mean, either.

 

Jameela [00:50:22] No, I mean, even a year ago, I would never have seen you as, as this guy, so

 

Neal [00:50:27] I agree.

 

Jameela [00:50:27] The evolution is continuing. I am so excited to see what you’re going to say a year from now, five years from now. I hope that we’re friends forever and that we are arguing until we die.

 

Neal [00:50:38] Bet. I see you there.

 

Jameela [00:50:40] Love you.

 

Neal [00:50:41] I accept your challenge. I love you as well.

 

Jameela [00:50:43] Now go on, fuck off.

 

Neal [00:50:47] Bye!

 

Jameela [00:50:52] Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimmie Gregory, and Amelia Chappelow. And the beautiful music that you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. And if you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. It’s such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording, sharing what you weigh at iweighodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners.

 

Listener [00:51:27] I weigh my oftentimes debilitating obsessive compulsive disorder and this pain and fear it brings with it. I weigh my passion for justice and my anger at this world’s persistent injustice. I weigh my laughter and the humor that saved my lifetime and time again. I weigh extreme self-doubt and the love of people around me. I weigh wanting to help people who need it the most and can afford it the least, but worrying I will fail. I weigh a million contradictions and wonder at small things like poppies and fireflies.