EP. 77 — Phoebe Robinson Returns

Jameela [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, I hope you’re well, and if you’re not, you might feel better after today’s episode because I love it when a friend comes onto this podcast. I know I always say that. I mean, I love everyone who comes on this podcast. But when a close buddy of mine who normally I have these conversations with over FaceTime honors me with their presence on this podcast, it really makes my day. And Phoebe Robinson is someone who I’m so grateful to be friends with because she’s just such a rare find in an industry that is really sharky waters and full of people who aren’t grounded a lot of the time or who aren’t kind a lot of the time we don’t have other women’s back in particular, and I think specifically women of color, be them brown or black or like wherever they’re from, like in particular, are made to feel like you have to compete with each other because there’s only one spot for any one ethnicity and kind of all white spaces. It can make a lot of people turn against each other and thankfully, post #metoo we’re seeing less and less of that. But she was like one of my first friends in this business and and someone who just was so instantly kind and open and not suspicious. And she’s one of my favorite writers. I have all of her books and her newest book, Please Don’t Sit On My Bed In Your Outside Clothes, is a welcome addition to that collection, arguably. In fact, I think it’s generally considered that it’s her best book so far is such an excellent read. It’s it’s easy whilst being hard hitting like it really ticks all of the boxes for what you could want in a read. And I have enjoyed going to bed every night reading this book and learning more about her ever changing perspective. I love the fact that these books have kind of documented her way through her 20s and 30s and now we find her almost 37 and where she’s at now emotionally covering all kinds of different topics. You know, and she wrote this during the pandemic. So she covers a lot of, you know, last year, but in a way that feels insightful, not like it’s dragging us backwards. She talks about not wanting to have kids. And that’s something that we talk a lot about in this podcast, of course, because, you know, by now, you know how I feel and how I’m just always teetering on the edge of this conversation. And I just want to have it more and more with people who will disrupt the constant tidal wave of pressure to have children. It’s just always so illuminating to me, especially when I have a woman want to have that conversation with me, a really openly and honestly. She talks about being a boss in this book and running your own business. She talks about quarantining with your with your boyfriend. She talks about traveling as a black woman. She talks about self care and and and white saviors. That’s, again, something that we talk about a lot in this episode. It’s a great book. And I asked her to come on so we could talk about some of those subjects for all of you to see if maybe you want to go out, buy that book and to see if you’ll fall in love with her as much as I am. She really is the best. She’s so unique and warm. And I hope you enjoy her time on this podcast as much as you did the last time she came on. If you haven’t heard it, you definitely should, because it’s another excellent episode. But for now, this is my good friend and one of my favorite writers and comedy voices and humans, Phoebe Robinson. She’s back. She’s my favorite. She’s my queen, she’s my friend Phoebe Robinson. Hi, how are you? 

Phoebe [00:03:46] I’m OK. How are you doing? 

Jameela [00:03:49] I am good. Thank you for coming back. Everyone loved it the last time you came here and the last time you were here.

Phoebe [00:03:57] No one listened come on. 

Jameela [00:03:58] Everyone listened. And not to brag, but we are about to hit 10 million downloads on this podcast. So. 

Phoebe [00:04:06] Woooow. 

Jameela [00:04:06] And all of those people, I believe, are your fans. 

Phoebe [00:04:12] Oh, well, yes, I have 10 million fans. 

Jameela [00:04:15] And, you know, last time you were here, you were in the middle of writing a book. That book is now coming out and it is called Please Don’t Sit On My Bed In You’re Outside Clothes the single greatest title maybe that you’ve ever written, but maybe anyone’s ever written. This book is your in my opinion, as a big fan of your books, we met because of your book, because you asked me to come on and interview you about it on stage at Largo, a highlight of my life and where we fell in love. But this, in my opinion, is your best book so far. 

Phoebe [00:04:48] Same. I feel the same way. 

Jameela [00:04:49] Yeah. It’s just like there’s just so much I mean, I’ve loved all of your books, but it’s really fun to grow up alongside you and what you grow as we’re all growing. And and it’s just so it’s so funny. But also, I feel like takes more of a stab in the heart, I feel and I don’t mean in any kind of bad way, but I feel as though if you’ve never pulled any punches, but this felt like it was delivered sometimes in just such an arresting way that it just kind of got into my bones. And I really loved that about this book and then kind of giving us the levity of comic relief. And then another really big, important, serious point. It was just it’s just great. Well done. How are you feeling? 

Phoebe [00:05:28] Oh, thank you. 

Jameela [00:05:31] Oh, God. I forgot about your English accent. It’s like the bane of my existence. It just hasn’t improved. It’s been three years you’ve been living in quarantine with an Englishman. Like, how is it not improved? 

Phoebe [00:05:48] It hasn’t got better. Not at all?

Jameela [00:05:50] Because it’s no, it’s no, it’s all it’s fractionally better. But for someone as talented as you to still not have picked this up, it’s outrageous. It’s a it’s outrageous, frankly. But thankfully, you’re good at other things. Many, many other things. 

Phoebe [00:06:09] Like writing books I’m much better at that. 

Jameela [00:06:10] Like writing books. 

Phoebe [00:06:14] So, yeah, it’s my third book and I feel it’s I feel it’s my best one, too, because I think, you know, as you get older, you have more you have better access to language to truly pinpoint exactly what you’re thinking and feeling and put it down on the page. And so I think, you know, being in my mid thirties, I’m thirty six about to be thirty seven. I think I’m just in a place where, you know, I could just freely talk about certain things, such as my decision to be voluntarily childfree and also writing a book during quarantine. I really. I don’t see it like I had, like, undivided attention, because I certainly didn’t and it was a pandemic they were all still living through. But I think writing a book where you, you are so constantly alone with your thoughts in a way that you aren’t when you’re out bopping around, going from jobs, going hang with your bae, going out to events, dinner and all that stuff, it just allowed me to sort of have like an unfiltered what’s in my brain is now going on directly on the page without, like, the distraction, the bullshit. 

Jameela [00:07:26] One hundred percent. And I also like you know, I think there is a feeling in some people about not wanting to read about the quarantine, not wanting to watch TV about the quarantine, like people want to escape it. But I feel as though the way you wrote about it didn’t make me feel like I was pulled back there. It just felt incredibly relatable and funny and kind of I don’t know, it felt like a very welcome time capsule of what we just went through, in particular some of your quarantining with your boyfriend stories, which I would like to jump into quite soon, please because. Because you did shart. You did shart Phoebe. 

Phoebe [00:08:03] Yeah. I shit myself. 

Jameela [00:08:05] We need to- you shat yourself. How was it overall how was quarantining with your wonderful boyfriend?

Phoebe [00:08:16] Yeah. My beloved boyfriend, British Bake Off, as I affectionately call him. You know, it was it was just so different because, you know, he works in music. Your bae works in music is a musician, I should say, not working as a musician. 

Jameela [00:08:33] Same thing. 

Phoebe [00:08:34] And but, you know, I mean, my boyfriend’s behind the scenes, but it’s just sort of like you are apart a lot and then when you’re not doing that and you’re at home every day. And, you know, that’s sort of like the most amount of time he and I have ever spent together. Of course, I go all the like kind of like funny quirks come out, but also sort of things where you’re like, oh, this is kind of how I am. And I didn’t realize, you know, like, I have these annoying things about me or like I’m stressed out about quarantining. I’m acting in a certain way that’s like not the perfect me that I was before when we were traveling all the time and then reuniting, you know. I think, you know, I my poor boyfriend, it’s just like I like to work with mostly like peace and quiet. Like I listen to a little bit of music, but I really like to not have, like, distractions around. And, you know, I like to work a lot, so I’ll work for very long stretches, period of time. And, you know, my boyfriend will be like here, like come into the kitchen. And so the backstory is we live in an apartment and it’s, you know, tight quarters. So like the dining room table turned into my desk. So I literally was working next to between the kitchen and the living room couch. And so he was like, come in and like want to chat and bla bla bla and I’d be like, I’m writing, leave me alone. Like, I was just very much like you’re disrupting my artistic, like, sort of bubble and not really realizing, well, you know, we are in an apartment for the unforeseeable future and he wants to, like, spend time with me and like, he doesn’t care that I like and this, like, artistic bubble right now, he wants his girlfriend. So I think just sort of like having to just be a little less type A about my scheduling and just sort of allowing, like, breaks to happen and not have it feel like this is a major disruption to my life and just sort of be like, well, we have to just like figure it out and be together. And he’s going to need me at certain times and I’m going to need him certain times. I can’t just, like, structure my day like that that’s not going to be the case. If that makes sense I don’t know if that makes sense or not. 

Jameela [00:10:47] It makes it makes sense. It makes complete sense. Trying to reflect on what it was like for me and James. We were we were OK for the majority of it. Things started to come apart probably about December, where it was just homicidal like nations between the two of us. I think that’s important. I mean, it’s been nine months of like two very lazy people raising a puppy who was very demanding and very, very energetic. And he was writing an album. I was making all these TV shows and everything else. So it was just like it became slightly stressful for both of us, but by the sort of like the end of the first big lockdown last year. But other than that, we were generally OK, apart from the fact that he just discovered what a slob I really am because he’s away on tour. I used to love that because I could just slob it up big time, like big single person behavior time. And I loved it. Like, I, you know, I missed him, but I also liked missing him and I liked being fucking filthy, fucking filthy. And then. He would then he’d come back and I quickly cleaned myself up. And then he would never he’d be none the wiser, but there was no way that that was not it was just simply not sustainable. So I think he got to, like, feel my real teenage dirtbag. And I think that that was that was he was very nice about it. But he did stage an intervention by about June. He was like, yeah, this is fine, you’re fine. I love you as you are. But are you going to wear that skeleton t shirt every day of the pandemic? Looks like this is going to last long beyond July. Yeah, I’m just I just wondering. I’m just checking in. And it was covered in food. Like covered in donuts. Yeah, just filthy. Rank. 

Phoebe [00:12:44] I was I was just I am the slab between the two of us. And now that my boyfriend’s back on the road and we’re we’re selling this apartment because we’re moving to just go rent and have bigger space. And where it is the apartment is staged so we can have people come by. So I literally have to like, you know, every every night before I go to bed, it’s spend like 30 minutes, like tidying up, cleaning everything up. And I’m like, oh, my God, this is what he does. I have to like every day I have to make sure all the dishes are put away and I have to make sure I leave my favorite thing are cough drops. So I just have these wrappers, like, I would just leave them like all over the apartment and I’m like trying to not eat in bed anymore because I’m a bed eater and then I get crumbs everywhere. So I’m like, I am having to be very neat and tidy. And I will also say the other thing about quarantining with Bae was I don’t know if this is like a guy thing. I don’t want to generalize, but he’s really into war movies like I like.  

Jameela [00:13:51] That is a thing. So is James, also like anything on I like Naval but like old like old ship shit. Like he loves anything on an old ship. Drives me crazy 

Phoebe [00:14:01] Yeah so early on in quarantine. I’d be like riding in the you know, on my on the kitchen table he’d be in our bedroom and like literally like nine in the morning. He’s like turning on Band of Brothers, I just hear de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de. And I’m like I’m like, do you do you want to turn that down just a scotch. He was like, I love this show so much. And I’m like, Why? Oh, why do you care so much about it now? His favorite thing is to watch NCIS like he’s into like naval pride. And I’m like he, like, just started watching NCIS two weeks ago. And I’m like, there are nineteen seasons. And he’s like, I’m just I’m going to plow through, I’m just going to watch them all and I was like 

Jameela [00:14:48] I’m actually going to to I’m going to tell James to do the same because he’s looking for something while he’s on tour. So thank you for that. That’s very helpful. They love that shit. Anyway, tell me how tell me about when you shit your pants. 

Phoebe [00:15:01] So you know. Let’s get into it. Well, you know, I write about this in the book so I’ll do like the shorter version of it. But you know, we’d been quaranting together for a while. We were we really had a phase where we were just baking a lot of cakes. We’re making a lot of cookies, making a lot of pies. 

Jameela [00:15:21] We would face time while you were cooking I remember.  

Phoebe [00:15:26] Yeah yeah. A lot of butter. Not just like, oh, I have one slice. It would be like what, you know, half a cake. And so I think we made like, like Duncan Hines, like three layer red velvet cake, which is like it’s fucking wild. And we had gotten some pho. So I had like as an amuse bouche I had a slice of this cake and then I had the pho and then I had another slice of cake for dinner, I mean for dessert. And I’d be eating junk food throughout the day because I was just like stress eating to cope with covid. And we were talking about something you say on the couch. And, you know, I’m a gassy person. So I was like I was in my head. I was like, this feels a little bit more than a fart, but I think I’m fine. 

Jameela [00:16:21] Rookie error you trusted a fart. 

Phoebe [00:16:22] I took a gamble on a fart because I kept I was behaving as though I was twenty five when I’m 36. 

Jameela [00:16:29] Phoebe the house always wins. The house always wins. How could you gamble on a fart. Have you learned nothing from Ocean’s Eleven. 

Phoebe [00:16:40] That was the take away. So I say I was going to go for it and then I see it happened. I was like ok I think that I shit myself and it was like a loud. Like like like a bass and the fart, so there was something was going on and my my boyfriend was like, are you? He goes, do you just shit yourself? because this is sounding like this isn’t just air passing through. 

Jameela [00:17:15] It was wet. Yeah. 

Phoebe [00:17:16] Yeah. And I was like, what? No, I did not. How dare you think I would shit myself as it goes back to watching TV? And I’m like sort of just quickly, like, waddle to the bathroom and take this like shame shower. And I d like shit myself. And, you know, the moral that I say is like, I’m not advocating you shoot yourself in front of your partner, but you need to do something on that level that is kind of embarrassing and sort of bonds you in a way. So eventually I fessed up to the to shitting myself and then cut to this year. I was I was in L.A. for work and I was Face Timing with him and we were talking and he goes, you remember that thing you did where you like shit yourself? And I was like, yeah, I was there. I remember shitting myself. And he goes, you know, today I shit myself. I was like, See, you were meant to be we both shit ourselves. And, you know, it happens. 

Jameela [00:18:24] We need to normalize it. It happens. It happened to me way worse than it happened to you one time, like seven years ago in broad daylight all over the street. We don’t need to get into that now, but it’s 

Phoebe [00:18:37] like like Bridesmaids, you shit in the street. 

Jameela [00:18:40] Like Bridesmaid like Santa Monica Boulevard, right by Third Street Promenade on a Saturday outside a church, which is really extra wrong. And I, I don’t know what happened, but I was extremely ill and clearly and it came out of nowhere. And then I had to like hide between like two cars so that no one would like video me. I knew it would go viral and I just sat there for two hours. No one would help me because it was fucking gross and I’d made a big mess and people were like running across the road away from me with their children. And then eventually, as the sun went down, which thank God it happened at five pm because it was November in America, I had to strip off all my clothes and I ran back to my hotel naked apart from a bra, because I didn’t want my tits. I was fine with my vagina and covered it in my own shit. So no one asked for this. I don’t know how this happened. This has become too close to Phoebe. 

Phoebe [00:19:39] I asked for it. 

Jameela [00:19:39] Ok but no one else said this is I’m going to have to trigger warning this episode now. But yeah, I it was very, very intense. And I had to and I think we need to know we need to normalize it. James and I really weird about farting in front of each other. We still haven’t. It’s been seven years almost. Isn’t that wild?

Phoebe [00:19:56] Oh, we were we are cracking off laugh. It is a firework display in our apartment. We are freely fart around each other, just do it. 

Jameela [00:20:07] That’s great. How early how early did you do it? Was it a choice? 

Phoebe [00:20:12] It was an accident. We were. We were it was 2017. I love how I remember the year it was twenty seventeen when 

Jameela [00:20:22] it was a cold winter’s night. 

Phoebe [00:20:23] We he I was shooting this movie for Netflix called Ibiza, and he flew out to surprise me. Then when I wrapped, he took me to London for my birthday because I had never been to London. So it’s very early on in our courtship maybe like two or three months. And we had this like he took us to like this nice restaurant. We had this lovely meal and we were like coming back to our hotel room. So I chatted in and changing clothes or whatever. And I just let out like a tiny like like fart by accident. And ever since then, it’s just 

Jameela [00:21:01] the floodgates opened. The arsehole floodgates just opened. James and I refer to it as I just need to go outside onto the balcony to think about something. We refer to them as thoughts. So we know that we know that the other one’s doing it, but we’ll never do it in front of each other. It’s like you can know about it, but you can’t see it. So it’s just like, yeah, I think it’s one of my favorite things he said when he was like, you have to leave and I said, why do I have to go? And he said, because I’m worried that my thought is going to turn into a memory 

Phoebe [00:21:33] that’s hilarious

Jameela [00:21:35] I’ve never been I’ve never been more in love with someone. Anyway, let’s talk about farting. We’re serious women, adults and it’s all perfectly natural normal anyway. Other than that, generally, you survived, 

Phoebe [00:21:56] Yeah yeah

Jameela [00:21:58] You survived you’ve thrived, you’re still good. One of the parts of your book that I found really fascinating to read and I had one I’d wondered about at the time, but didn’t ask you about it because it felt like an incredibly inappropriate thing to ask and would have been. But you talk about quarantining as a black woman with your white partner in the middle of the like 2020 is the term racial reckoning. Would you find that appropriate to use? 

Phoebe [00:22:30] Yeah. 

Jameela [00:22:30] But you know, during the George Floyd and all of the protests and all of this kind of like sudden, you know, distressingly sudden awareness that everyone seemed to have you talked about that being challenging and being something that you didn’t expect to be, uh, testing for you? 

Phoebe [00:22:50] Yeah, I mean, it was just such a to to experience that while in a pandemic when you’re quarantining, it was just really tough. And, you know, we were having, like the NYPD police motorcade, like drive up and down our street. Like it was definitely just a very stressful time in New York where was the energy was not to have the citizens feel safe or comfortable. And so it was just like one of those things where you just sort of like he was very supportive and he knew that it was a very tough time and it was a horrible thing to witness. But at the same time, he’s also not black. I mean, or African-American, or whatever you want to call it. So it just was 

Jameela [00:23:35] You referred to him as patient zero in the book, because he’s white and British. So like the epitome of the colonizer, 

Phoebe [00:23:43] Yes. He is. 

Jameela [00:23:44] That made me laugh so much. 

Phoebe [00:23:45] So like he this is how white he is. When we white and British he is when I went to meet his family for the first time in the UK over the holidays, we fully spent like. Like an afternoon watching Wallace and Gromit movies back to back, just like nonstop Wallace and Gromit, I’m like, guys, this is very white and British no? And they’re like, isn’t it lovely? I was like, yes, it is. But he’s very delightful. He was so sweet. And it was just really tough to sort of have to deal with. But it was so I was so happy to have him by my side and he knew that he would never fully understand this. What I was experiencing going through and what all black people in America were going through at the time. And he didn’t make me explain anything to him. He wasn’t like trying to fix anything. He sort of resisted all that kind of like trappings of a white savior that I write about in the book and just sort of let it be. And then he talked to his friends and his family and didn’t bring me into it. And he figured out ways that he could help. He wasn’t like, what should I do? He just, like, went online and just like read articles and was donating to.

Jameela [00:25:04] Donating to the bail funds 

Phoebe [00:25:06] Yeah and just doing all that stuff and sort of like just let me be able to try and try to process what’s going on. And that was so meaningful to me that he did that. 

Jameela [00:25:17] Yeah, I totally understand. Still not having someone who understands, as you say in their marrow, what your experience is. But I think of anyone you could have been contending with who couldn’t quite get there. I think Bake Off is a lovely sour loaf at least.

Phoebe [00:25:36] He is. He’s such a gem and he’s so smart and he’s so funny. And I don’t know he’s just a really good dude. I wish they made more people like him. He’s really a great person.

Jameela [00:25:47] Agreed. Well, speaking of the white savior, you talk about this quite explicitly in your book. And, you know, we touched upon this a little bit the last time you were on this podcast. But I would like to go into more depth about it. And also the conversation isn’t over and we’re seeing that same behavior, even if it’s not happening just towards racial justice. It’s also happening within like the trans conversation that every conversation, this performative activism. And so I I would love to talk to you about your feelings on that. Like, what was the kind of moment that you reached boiling point with performative activism? Was there a moment or was it just all of last summer? 

Phoebe [00:26:28] I was just all of last summer and this sort of like. You know, so white people will be online and would just go, I can’t. This is not the America I know. And I’m like, knock knock bitch where have you been? This has been America since, like, you know, colonizers got here. Like, this isn’t surprising. And so the thing for me, well, one of the many things, but one of things that was really frustrating is sort of this new awakening of certain people kind of realizing what was that racism is a thing that exists in America and that black and brown people are affected and disproportionately because of racism and just decided, well, I’m going to roll up my sleeves and I’m going to I’m going to fix this. You guys just have to figure it out. But I’m mean, I read three chapters in Robert DiAngelo White Fragility, and I’m going to fix this racism problem. And I’m just like, are you do not hear yourself. Do you not see yourself. Do you think putting a black box up on Instagram is changing things? It’s not. The expectation that racism was supposed to be cured once they got involved. I saw a lot of like I saw a lot of people once like defund the police became a movement. And then you see people in line being like, I can’t believe the police has not been defunded yet and it’s like. You thought it was going to be defunded and three weeks, you literally thought the police who start as slave patrols was going to be defunded in three weeks because you decided to get involved to post some tweets just this sort of like complete lack of understanding and just in refusal, refusal to believe that racism is so pervasive and affects every fabric of our society, it was just really hard to sort of deal with watching this performative allyship and people being like support black businesses. And I’m just always like. Yeah, ok I have a feeling you guys aren’t going to shop at any of these places next year, but OK, good for you. Good for you. You bought a sweatshirt one time in August. And so

Jameela [00:28:56] For anyone for anyone like listening to this podcast, maybe they are a nonblack person. They are looking to be helpful to the movement. They want to learn how to raise awareness, but they also don’t want to take up too much space. And I say this as someone who has taken up too much space before in another movement, how how is best to to help without treading into white savior territory? 

Phoebe [00:29:30] I mean, that’s a great question. I think the one the main thing is you sort of have to examine the intentionality behind your behavior. Are you for instance, buying a sweatshirt from this black owned business so that you could post about it in part, so you can post about it online as a symbol of look at this good deed. I am a good person. I am not like the other people who don’t get it. I get it. That is very front facing and about the ego. Whereas and a very simple thing to do, like it’s easy to do that. It’s easy to throw up a black square on Instagram, but you have to really look around your life, your neighborhood, and see the ways in which you are consciously or subconsciously perpetuating these structures. And, you know, I think a lot about like gentrification, if every time you move somewhere and then a few years later, all the black and brown people and the financially insecure people that were once in this neighborhood are out and you’re there enjoying your Trader Joe’s and all your cute little mom and pop shops and everything you have to look at, like what you’re moving into a neighborhood actually does take a look at what’s being taught in your schools. If you have kids like I went to for college, I went to Pratt Institute in Brooklyn for four years, only had one teacher who was not white and this was like 2002 in Brooklyn, New York, and sort of and yes, obviously I wasn’t a kid then, but just sort of taking notice of like what books are you being taught to read, who are the teachers, what restaurants do you go to. What, where do you shop for your clothes like all these sort of things like where you patronize your business, who you who are you talking to at work? If there’s if you are running a company and you have nobody of color in your C-suite or you never promote anybody of color to a position that is anything other than subordinate to you, you have to look at that. So there are a lot of sort of like everyday things that people can do. But that’s not it’s not sexy. Right? Like it’s not something you could just sort of post a picture of on Instagram and get a likes. 

Jameela [00:31:59] No. And I do think look, I do think it’s like just to be fully realistic, I do think that even when the most fucking frustrating as I is, even when the motivation is corrupt, there is still some value in the visibility that people can bring. Even if they’re doing it from a virtue signaling place. It doesn’t make it any less ugly or grotesque. But at least the like there was some merit to the fact that for whatever motivation, everyone was talking about it in a way that then, like no one could ignore. It was sad when they suddenly went away. Yeah, I was going to say it’s like it suddenly went away when it wasn’t trendy and imperative to discuss and then not a lot changed. But I do think there’s value. But you also have to really look at the fact as Phoebe’s saying is to back that shit up, back up that tweet with actual affirmative like not affirmative action. That’s not what I mean. With actual helpful change, meaningful change. Look at who your senators are. Educate yourself about how systems can be overridden. I think it’s just about making sure that it doesn’t stop at the post. Right?

Phoebe [00:33:03] And also. Yeah. Does it stop at the post. I would also argue that it shouldn’t start at the Post. Honestly social media should be the last step. If you want to include it in the whatever your work is going to be, just do shit without an audience, without sort of being like, look at me, I’m great. Just do it because you give a shit, because the system is broken, because this country is in need of dire help. Like that’s where the motivation has to come from. And I just think so many people are missing the plot on that. And then there are also people who don’t care. I mean, nothing has honestly, nothing has really changed since last summer. 

Jameela [00:33:45] You feel like nothing’s changed? 

Phoebe [00:33:48] Not really. Like I mean, I feel like the numbers are still abysmal in terms of employment. I feel like what brands have really done any sort of restructuring, you know what I mean? Like. I just I don’t see all these promises, all these like I’m pledging a million dollars to this sort of thing, where where is the money now? Where how is it been distributed? Whose hands is it gone into it? I just I’m not trying to be negative. I’m just trying to I’m asking. 

Jameela [00:34:21] You’re being honest. 

Phoebe [00:34:22] Yeah. I’m just like I don’t I don’t know where this change has happened because I don’t think it’s happened in any way that has benefited black and brown lives to be honest.

Jameela [00:34:30] Well you’ve been at the Emmy’s, like it felt like we had more black people nominated, but still no black people winning in the big, big categories, I think RuPaul was one of the only people who won 

Phoebe [00:34:40] Yes RuPaul and Michaela Coel and they constantly have black people host these events, but we’ll never give them an award. I’m also like, I think we sort of have to move away from. I don’t mean we like as a you and I, but just like in general. 

Jameela [00:34:58] You mean me, I get it. 

Phoebe [00:34:59] Hey Jameela, this is about you. No but I think we just sort of have to stop looking at these places like the Golden Globes and the Emmys and the Oscars to validate our work, to recognize our work.

Jameela [00:35:11] Hundred percent. 

Phoebe [00:35:12] You know what I mean? And just either create your own award shows or just keep it moving and just do the work that you’re proud of, you know? 

Jameela [00:35:20] Mm hmm. I agree with you and I’m really glad that you write about it in your book. And I’m really glad that you are saying this now, because I do think that there is this sort of like general attitude of not we fixed it, but the but the the movie like what is it going to take for that conversation to come back into the mainstream? Like what horror, what traumatizing, terrifying horror is going to happen before people start talking about this again and meaningfully and then acting on that change. 100 percent. Um, yeah, it was it was a really striking part of this book. Another really striking part of this book was your honesty around children, which I loved. It was an extraordinary chapter that I I have read to many, many friends since getting your manuscript. And I there’s such a wealth of things to talk about with it. And I almost to the point where I almost don’t know where to start. Generally, what is your when did this stance occur regarding making that decision to not have children? 

Phoebe [00:36:26] Yeah, I mean, I think I’ve probably been voluntarily child-free, like in terms of like this is for sure what I want out of my life, probably like my early 30s and then I think certainly six years ago, 

Jameela [00:36:42] So recently. 

Phoebe [00:36:43] Yeah it was quite recent. I think, you know, I think in my late 20s I was like, oh, maybe I’ll just like, freeze my eggs. I don’t know. I don’t know when I want to have kids, but like, I’ll just do this out of insurance. And then in my 30s, I was just kind of like, you don’t really want to have kids, so why are you going to go through this process and waste time and energy and money and just own the fact that you don’t want to have kids and not do something to hide that or pretend like that’s not your truth. And, you know, Bake Off has he’s known since he was a kid that he’s never wanted to be a father, but he never really had any sort of he was just like, yeah, I’ve always known I don’t want to have kids. Moving on, what do you want for dinner? Like, it was never sort of the kind of internal struggle that it was for me and I think for a lot of women, you know, 

Jameela [00:37:31] I I left out like an audible sigh like of just like, oh, when I read that, you asked him, like, you were sitting, I think, like together in your apartment, you were like, would you be OK if this was just it if it was just us forever, just living like this. And he said he said, you’re more than enough to fill my life or something along those lines. And I was just like, oh my God, that’s such a lovely thing to say. A lovely thing to hear. Especially as a woman like you shouldn’t feel like so much of a relief, but this feeling of pressure is just fucking relentless. I’ve spoken about it before in this podcast. The podcast probably doesn’t feel a bit like anti baby propaganda, but tough shit. At least it will combat the the ninety nine percent of your life in which you’re hearing the messaging of, like, do it, do it, do it. One of my favorite is will you just explain the way that it feels like Ticketmaster? 

Phoebe [00:38:26] Oh yeah. People are just like people are just like, you know what, you better hurry up. The clock is ticking. You better have that kid. And sort of like we’re putting your concert tickets to get Dave Matthews Band tickets or whatever at Ticketmaster. And then it’s like the clock down the countdown clock. And then you’re like, it’s over. It’s almost over. Like I’m running out of eggs. Like, this is the thing where it’s like it’s going to be a geriatric pregnancy. You’re running low on eggs, like, what are you going to do with your life and all this? And yes, I think it is true that making a decision is very important. You really need to be certain about it. But I think society likes to make women feel as though the clock is running out from like the second you’re twenty one, you better hurry up and have kids or your life or your woman hoodness is going to be over. And in this essay, I’m really writing to the fact that, like motherhood, other hood, none of that defines you as a woman and doesn’t make you a better woman because you have kids, other hood doesn’t make you a better woman because you don’t have kids. There are women who for whatever those  

Jameela [00:39:43] Wait sorry. Otherhood. Otherhood is genius. I forgot about otherhood. Oh yeah. Sorry, sorry, sorry. As you say, it just struck me again. 

Phoebe [00:39:48] But it’s just like one of those things where, you know, there are women who can’t have children for whatever the circumstances are. So does that mean their life is invalid? You know what I mean? Does it? And I think we have to really society when I say we society, I mean we what I say we I mean, society has to really look at the way that they see sort of project expectations on women. And I think both women and men for sure have narrow sort of definitions of what they’re supposed to be to live up to that particular label. But I think for women, it’s very it’s very restrictive and it creates this sort of sense of if I don’t want to have children, does this mean that I’m broken? Because everyone around me seems to want to have children but me, so something must be off about me and I think  

Jameela [00:40:42] Yeah I’ve been made to feel like a dead cold bitch because of it. Selfish and the worst. You know what the funniest thing is that everyone lately, like everyone’s really hammering it like home with me just all the time, like, oh, but you’d be such a great mother. And I’m like, I fucking know that’s the problem. Like, you’re talking about someone else’s joy and relief from my labor. Great. So I’d be a great mother. I would be a great caregiver to someone else. I don’t really. And by the way, like, I totally see that there is joy in giving care. And I love looking after my friends. I love giving care to my boyfriend or to, you know, like even with the I Weigh community. Like, I love being in service, but I also like personally being able to turn that service off sometimes. I was explaining that to a friend. It’s like he was like, you know, you’re so maternal to your friends. I’m like, I know, but you’re also all in your 30s and you fuck off and you go off. You have relationships and you don’t like literally like need my tit you know, you don’t need you don’t need all my time. I like I’m not as worried. I’m a bit worried that, like, some of them are so reckless that they’re going to die. But generally I’m not worried about their safety all of the time in a way that I would be. And so I don’t like that as an argument. Don’t say that to women. Oh, but you’d be such a good mother. So, I mean, so where’s the fun? I didn’t hear the fun in that for me, it’s not what I want. Do you know what I mean? 

Phoebe [00:42:04] I know what you mean. I think we just have to if. If a woman says that she does not want to have kids, that is pretty much the end of the discussion. It’s not it’s not a cue for you to try and convince her that she should be a mother or has she really have you really thought about it? Are you sure? Are you sure? It’s like, yes, women who make this decision have thought about this long and hard. This is not going to do haphazardly and sort of the assumption that you don’t want to be a mother because you haven’t thought it through or you’re avoiding being an adult again I fully reject because not everybody wants the same things that everybody wants to live their life in the same ways. And if you are of a certain age and you are working, you’re going through all the traumas of just adulthood. You are an adult. It’s not defined by whether or not you’re a parent.  

Jameela [00:43:03] 100 percent. But also, I love what you said about Peter Pan not being like being compared to kind of Peter Pan with the whole Peter Pan syndrome with us being considered not grown ups that you don’t consider it shade. Elaborate place. 

Phoebe [00:43:14] Yeah, I’m like, Peter Pan is great. OK, Peter Pan’s tights never run. Peter Pan can fly. Peter Pan is having a good time. So I think that when women and men do, when people make the decision to not want to have kids, it’s it’s not because I’m like, oh, I don’t want to be responsible. It’s just like I’m looking I think everyone takes stock of their life and they go, this is what I feel I have the bandwidth for. And for some people it’s not kids that’s not a part of their bandwidth. That’s just not what they it can be like their career. It could be their philanthropic work. It could be spending time with family and friends. It can be them wanting to travel, could be them wanting to, like, devote that time to hobbies and just doing things that bring them joy 

Jameela [00:44:08] So what’s your what’s your life baby? 

Phoebe [00:44:10] Oh, my life baby. I would say before quarantine, it was probably traveling. I really enjoyed traveling the world for one for work. I really got the pleasure of doing that because the stand up and then also for joy too like going on vacations in different cities and eating different kinds of food and meeting different kinds of people and sort of, you know, getting my head out of my sort of American asshole a little bit and just sort of seeing how the other world like how the rest of the world lives and how they do things differently. That was just spectacular and beautiful and amazing. So that’s probably the thing that is my life baby is just being able to see the world. 

Jameela [00:45:04] You have a stronger work ethic than anyone else I know. I mean, it’s just every time we talk, you have a new huge, all encompassing, like, challenging project on the boil. I don’t honestly, I don’t know. It’s one of the few places where we do not relate at all. There’s so many areas where I’m so with you until you’re planning to, like, break a new ceiling with a new thing and your energy is just unrelenting. Where does that come? Where does that come from? Is it is it an addiction? Are you a workaholic or are you just in love with it? Is it a combo of both? How can I be a bit more like you? Should I be a bit more like you? I think I should. 

Phoebe [00:45:49] Listen mate you are I think you downplaying yourself a little bit. You working you’re busting your little tail over here. You’re not sitting on the sidelines just like chillin with your cute bangs. OK, you have a work ethic. 

Jameela [00:46:03] Oh thank you for being nice about my bangs. The drag queen didn’t really like them. 

Phoebe [00:46:11] I love the bangs. 

Jameela [00:46:13] They thought that they were stuck on. 

Phoebe [00:46:12] What? Oh, no! 

Jameela [00:46:17] It’s fine. It’s fine. It does look that way. So. OK, so. Yeah. Thank you. Um no I know what you mean. But I don’t have I feel as though the social justice work I’m very, very driven for by a lot of the other stuff. I’m like I know I have to do this because if I do, this will create more like money that I can pour into I Weigh or like social justice or charity or it will create like more of a platform or, you know, like a position of power for me, that I can then extend the people around me who deserve it more than me or who need it more than me or who need to be heard more than me. Like I’m I’m very strategic in it, but I’m slightly more like, um, exhausted and resentful. Resentful. Is that okay to just admit? 

Phoebe [00:47:02] Yeah. Be honest. Be honest about how you feel.  

Jameela [00:47:05] I’m like I want to I’d like to chill, I’d like to chill more, but I’m very I’m, I’m so like overwhelmed with pride, at everything that you do. And Tiny Reparations, which is your publishing arm. It’s just such an exciting thing that I, I will talk to you about it. I feel like that’s that’s one of your babies as well. 

Phoebe [00:47:24] Yeah. I mean, I think I think 

Jameela [00:47:28] this is by the way, sorry, just a publishing where Phoebe’s making space for people of color, for black writers, like for people to breakthrough who otherwise have gone ignored sometimes because of racism, 

Phoebe [00:47:41] Racism in publishing oig. Yeah. To go back to your earlier question before I jump on the emperor is I would say I’m probably a reformed workaholic. So I think I’m in a space now where I would like to have a little bit more balance, a little bit more downtime and enjoy life a little bit more is what my astrologists slash life coach said to me. She was like, I think you work very hard, but I don’t think you’re having that much fun. 

Jameela [00:48:15] Is it a model, minority thing of like I have to take all these opportunities because I definitely have this in my early 20s where I was just like, OK, I’m one of the few South Asians on television. I have to take all these jobs. Otherwise they will be filled by another white person. And so I you know, and I want to keep making, like, breaking open doors so that others can come up, like, I have to do this. And you’re told that you have a sprint, not marathon and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like this kind of like panic that gets set into our bones of like, you’ve got to get it while you can because it’s only one allowed at a time. And then you’ll be, you know, then the opportunity is over. I took a really long time to to teach to teach myself that that the scarcity is a lie and that the abundance is the truth. We just have to believe in that and go after it. 

Phoebe [00:49:01] I love that. I think for me, I was in debt for so long and, you know, I started to stand up right before I turned twenty four, which is typically a little bit later. Usually people start in their late teens. 

Jameela [00:49:17] That’s terrifying. 

Phoebe [00:49:18] And I mean, that’s really early to sort of start, but like it truly takes about an hour, 10, 11 years to get good at it. So it kind of makes sense that you want to start sooner rather than later. And this industry is just so hard. I think it’s really hard for you to break through as a woman is really hard to break through as a woman of color. And so you sort of feel like you have to really do a lot of work and a lot of heavy lifting to get people to buy into what you’re doing. So happy to take all that on. And knowing that things are going to take a little bit longer just because of the way I look, I think it’s sort of like put me in this headspace of like I got to do this. I got to prove myself. I got to build this thing. I got to do it. And I know it’s going to take a lot of time. And I wasn’t sort of taking the moment to be like, look at what you’ve done. Look at like, you know, the books that you’ve written or like Two Dope Queens. Like, I think after Jess and I take the last Two Dope Queens thing and it came out in twenty nineteen, I was like, OK, I’m, I’m off to like, go figure out a scripted half hour TV show for me. I was just going from to the next thing because I didn’t want to lose momentum because it’s so hard to get it. And yeah I think when Whitney said that to me now Whitney Cummings but Whitney, my astrologists slash life coach sort of just put the perspective in that, like you can work hard, but you could also enjoy what you achieved and you don’t have to barrel through all your to do list because no one’s no one’s keeping score. No one’s keeping track of it. 

Jameela [00:50:52] Can I ask you about having an astrologer slash life coach? Because that sounds that sounds like the kind of thing one only has about in Los Angeles. Is it a sort of therapy? So I don’t really know what that is like. I, I’ve heard of it, but I don’t know how it works because it feels like it’s kind of a bit like this is so ignorant sorry but like parenting slash therapy. 

Phoebe [00:51:14] So I have a therapist and she’s great. So Whitney she so I was my publicist sees her and she was like, oh I think it’s just be fun to have her do a reading on you and do your birth chart and all that stuff. And I was like, oh OK that’s cool. And then Whitney and I were sort of just talking and like really got on well together and I was just sort of telling her about work and stuff. And she we really try to just sort of tackle work and like sort of my mentality around work. And so it’s less like, tell me your feelings, but it’s more like one of our earlier sessions. She was just like. When I say the words to you two week vacation, she goes, just tell me what you think when I say that to you. And I go, impossible and she was like, do you think you’re that necessary that you can’t take any time off? And I’ll say, but you know I have I have these businesses, and she was like, do you think Oprah is not taking vacations? Do you think Mindy Kaling is not taking vacations? They have big companies. Your company’s not as big as theirs and they’re able to take time off. So she was just like, well, what is this really about? So it’s just sort of like, having like those promps and sort of like getting me to sort of understand that I don’t have to sort of, you know, like I grew up like listening to people like and this is going to date me because I still call him Puff Daddy. I think he’s like Brother Love now, but Puff Daddy, Diddy or whatever. And he did this interview and he was like, while other people are sleeping, I’m in the studio working. So just sort of that mindset of like, oh, 

Jameela [00:52:54] yeah, the grind, the hustle, all of these things get the bag. A million things. And I feel like minorities in particular were being told like, catch up, catch up. You got to catch up. This is our moment. 

Phoebe [00:53:06] Yeah. And she was just like, you don’t need to work this hard. You need to enjoy the stuff that you’re doing, you need to process it. You need to learn from it. I really like her. I see her twice a month and she does a really good job of helping me sort of like break this conditioning that I had in terms of my relationship with work. 

Jameela [00:53:27] So when someone is an astrologist, are they reading into your future just more like your kind of personality traits based on like the time and location of where you were born? 

Phoebe [00:53:35] Yeah, it’s not like she’s not like a psychic or anything like that, 

Jameela [00:53:38] So you’re not like, should I have kids? Am I the type of personality? Have you spoken to about kids with her? 

Phoebe [00:53:44] Yeah, I just say, yeah, I don’t want to have kids. She’s like, I don’t want to have kids either. She’s great. 

Jameela [00:53:48] Or like the part of the book where you talked about not being able to imagine yourself like and Bake Off like doing what was it like head, shoulders, knees and toes to like beatboxing.

Phoebe [00:54:03] yeah, I’m just like I can’t imagine me doing that to get our kid to go to sleep. So maybe I shouldn’t be a mom. 

Jameela [00:54:10] So. OK, so another thing I would like to talk to you about is when you wrote about in the book, I mean, you kind of reference like astrology and having a life coach and having therapy. You talk about self care is not a candle and therapy is not a notebook. I would like to go deeper in that because I do feel like you as much as you put so much of your time and your energy not only into your work and your relationship. I do feel as though like over the years of me knowing you, even I seen a significant rise in your actual, like, attention to yourself. And I think it’s really inspiring and good. Can you talk a bit about your feeling around this? What, what made you even want to say it? 

Phoebe [00:54:48] Well, just I think, you know, I started therapy in quarantine. And, you know, I always tell people I understand that I am lucky to be in a financial position where I can afford outside help and that most people cannot afford that in this country. The health care system fails us and a lot of ways, which is why we rely on candles and bubble baths to help soothe us because we’re not getting the actual help that we need. And so when I was writing this essay, I really was just sort of, you know, whenever you see talk about self care, self care online, you always see people quote Audre Lorde and all that kind of stuff. And then it’s always ends up being tied to capitalism. And, you know, it’s like shilling products. And then when you dig deeper, you realize, you know, Audra and the Black Panthers were talking about self care in terms of if you take care of the community, you are also taking care of yourself. If you help the people in your community have good health, then you’re also taking care of yourself. It wasn’t sort of like centered, like I, I, me, me, me. I’m going to do this thing and that’s going to lead to me optimizing myself better. And that’s going to lead to me being to me being happier. And, you know, I think a lot of us are running around with like apps and notebooks and stuff. And we’re still sort of feeling kind of maybe a little lost, a little sad, a little still stressed out and overwhelmed. And so when I was writing about this stuff and sort of like, yes, I put my money into having a therapist and a life coach, but it’s because I really needed help with rewiring my brain in terms of taking care of myself. And I was just like, well if I work harder then I’m taking care of myself. And it’s like, no, you’re just burning yourself out and actually being self-destructive. 

Jameela [00:56:40] It’s also the capitalist lie of like, you know, you’ll be able to relax later, just like get it all done now and later never comes because the goalposts move or the fucking inflation diminishes the value of the money that we did earn before. And so you just end up in this fucking loop, this pointless loop of hell and exhaustion because you were just driven by the wrong conditioning. 

Phoebe [00:57:07] Yeah. And so, you know, now that I’ve been in therapy for a little over a year, I think, of course, I’m not saying like I’m so cured and I have a perfectly healthy relationship to work. You know, I think that’s always going to be a thing that I’m going to work on and that’s going to be sort of the big journey for my life, I think. But I I what I wish is that politicians cared more about health care, even if you look at schools like sometimes like students are just written off as like problem child or they’re just they’re so bad and so combative and so they’re terrible instead of realizing, you know, this is a cry for help or they need they just need some sort of guidance. That’s not like we just can’t raise people like everyone’s the same. You know what I mean? Some people need different tools to help them reach their potential. And I think there’s such. Where I think society is not capable of seeing the complexity of people and just even seeing how the reaction was to Simone Biles when she stepped away during the Olympics and people are like, you’re a quitter, you’re this year’s most selfish bla bla bla 

Jameela [00:58:28] Same Naomi Osaka. 

Phoebe [00:58:29] Yeah. And I think sort of this lack of understanding that because it’s not a physical thing like you see arm is broken, you can go, oh, this person is hurting. But if someone’s having mental health issues, it’s like, well, you look fine. 

Jameela [00:58:43] Can I ask why it took you until you were 32 to do it? 

Phoebe [00:58:48] To go therapy? 

Jameela [00:58:50] Yeah. 

Phoebe [00:58:51] Oh, no, I started therapy a year ago, so I wish it was when I was thirty two. When did I start one of my thirty five. No. Yeah.

Jameela [00:58:59] Wait what am I talking about. I don’t know why. I was like, oh she’s thirty three. 

Phoebe [00:59:03] Yes yes yes I am 33. 

Jameela [00:59:06] So you’ve been in the game for a minute. Yeah. 

Phoebe [00:59:07] Everyone listening. I am thirty three.

Jameela [00:59:08] Wait wait wait. Do you have age shit? Do you wait do you age shit? I feel like we’ve never spoken about this. You don’t have a problem with getting older. Right? 

Phoebe [00:59:17] No. I remember when I started standup at around twenty four and a club owner in New York told me I should start lying about my age because twenty four is pretty old for a woman. And I was like. 

Jameela [00:59:28] Oh my God. 

Phoebe [00:59:29] I was like what. I was like bitch, I still have acne. I am not like this old bird. I feel OK about aging. I mean it’s good if you get older, you know, 

Jameela [00:59:43] So where does the like I wish I was thirty three come from just out of curi I’m not trying to put you on the spot but I’m just, I’m just putting you on the spot. 

Phoebe [00:59:50] I think like sort of the realizations that I’m having now. I’m like, oh I wish I could have had them a little bit sooner, you know what I mean? 

Jameela [00:59:58] Right. 

Phoebe [00:59:59] And so that sort of thing where it’s like but I think I wouldn’t be the person I am now if I had them earlier. So it’s OK. But it’s just like when you know more, you’re like, oh, I could have done that different. Or, you know, I just think about I would miss weddings, baby showers, important family stuff. You know, I was just missing things because of my addiction to work. And that’s where I’m like, oh, if I was thirty three I would have prioritized this over like going to work. And that’s I get where I’m like I wish I was thirty three. 

Jameela [01:00:31] OK ok. I was just checking, just making sure because I want us all to feel as good as possible about getting older. But I definitely think regret is a real thing and I think that it’s healthy as long as it doesn’t consume you. And I feel like you have a really good balance on that. I’m obsessed with getting older, even though I’ve made so many mistakes, like I made mistakes like yesterday. I made so many mistakes. I would love to go back and have a do over and to some extent. But I just I, I love it. I’ve been like telling people I’m older than I am since I was like ten, not just like in the way that kids like want to be seen as old as I’ve been. Like when I was twenty five I was like, I’m nearly forty in a way where I was trying to get people to a) take me more seriously. I just like I love everything it brings. I’m loving learning more every year. I’m loving seeing the age start to show on my face. I’m loving being treated with more kind of as though I have like some wisdom and something to give. I like less visibility. Does that make sense? I’m enjoying, especially as a public woman, I feel like there’s less of an appetite for me as I get older and I find that like good and healthy and like I can find my own space rather than get swept up into the hysterical hemisphere of fame. And, you know, I’m just I’m enjoying not feeling constantly afraid and surprised as I was. I was just so surprised all the time because our generation had nothing on GenZ, like we weren’t told shit about fuck, like we weren’t given any warnings about anything. We didn’t have the dialog. We didn’t have the tools. We didn’t know how to identify anything. We were woefully gastly out of all of our suspicions and so I. I hated I hated that time. I’m loving bring on 40. Bring on fifty when I’m 80 I’m going to start doing heroin and, you know, it’s like I’m going to party up. I’m doing it all. So I’m saving it for my eighties. I heard about this I heard about this place in Palm Springs where like people like 80 plus are just doing drugs off each other’s naked bodies and just partying it up. And I’m like, I want to go there. I want to do that. I don’t want to do it young because like, you know, my health is already challenged as it is. So I’m also really clumsy. So I can’t be off my face too often. But I’m a big fucking plans for my seventies and eighties, like big plans like it’s. I’ve never been like the fun friend or the party friend, or at least not since I was like twenty three. But you just watch this space. I’m gonna live it large.

Phoebe [01:03:01] Wow. I think we’re going to be completely opposites. 

Jameela [01:03:05] I know. It’s fine, it’s fine, it’s fine, we can just FaceTime each other and I’ll have my tits out, it’ll be the best. 

Phoebe [01:03:15] Yes.

Jameela [01:03:16] No teeth, tits out. The best. It’s going to get weird. I’m still going to have this haircut, but it’s going to be pink, like just like every day I wake up, I know that I’m one step closer to my old age utopia. 

Phoebe [01:03:35] Oh, I like that. I like that for you.

Jameela [01:03:37] Phoebe. You’re so busy because you have nine thousand businesses. I want you to come back again sometime soon, but everyone should go out and buy Please Don’t Sit On My Bed In Your Outside Clothes. Can we just can you just. I can’t believe we went a whole podcast without discussing it. Why did you call your book that? 

Phoebe [01:03:57] So you know, my parents that was like a hard and fast rule with them. They’re very clean. They would clean the house every week like mop sweep, floor mop the floor, sweep everything and wipe the baseboards, like just really dusting like everything. And so for my brother and I, they were just like the outside is funky and dirty and triflin. You’re not bringing that filth into our house. So stripped down after school and put on your PJs. And so that’s a thing that I really kept with me. I didn’t realize it until I was in college and I got like my bedding from Target room essentials and all that stuff. And I didn’t want anyone to sit on my bed. I was like, don’t sit on my comforter. You were just on the New York subway. And so I was just like, OK, that’s kind of funny. And I write a lot about my parents in here. So I thought this would be like a nice tip of the hat to them. 

Jameela [01:04:52] Oh, that’s so sweet. It’s such a funny book. It’s such a great book. I love you. I hope everyone goes out to buy it. And and thank you for continuing just to be such a great role model, not just for being able to use like to kind of almost weaponize your humor, to get through to people, but also for your public growth is something that you and I speak about a lot as friends, is just not being afraid to do that growth in front of other people and have people kind of grow alongside you and not be pretentious about it. There’s a lot of posturing on the Internet. It drives us both mad. There’s a lot of elitism. There’s a lot of peacocking going on. And I really appreciate having you as a friend and a comrade in the very small subsection of public figures who are willing to be vulnerable and say, oh, shit, I didn’t I didn’t know that and now I do. Here’s how I figured it out. If you also want to change, this is how. I appreciate you.

Phoebe [01:05:56] Yes, I appreciate you, jam, jam, I miss you. You’re always a delight to chat with. You’re so funny and kind and sweet. So thank you for having me on the podcast. 

Jameela [01:06:09] Before you go. And I know you’ve already done this before, but I have to ask you, what do you weigh? You did it before last time so you’re going to have to come up with new things. 

Phoebe [01:06:17] Oh, yes. OK, what do I weigh? I weigh my you see how my dragging it out while I think I weigh my evergrowing book collection. I’m so proud of them. And my goal is to be an old lady where my house is just literally covered in books. 

Jameela [01:06:45] Built of books. 

Phoebe [01:06:46] Yeah, built of books. I’m just, you know, my hair’s not done, but I got like every edition of, like, every Toni Morrison book. So I weigh my book collection. I weigh my my growing ability to be compassionate. I weigh my newfound respect of my hair and myself. I weigh my ability to sort of admit when I’m wrong, which was not my strong suit when I was younger, I weigh my love for my friends and family and Bake Off. I weigh my obsession with you, too, and I weigh my openness for the future and really sort of embracing that I don’t know what’s coming up next and being OK with that. 

Jameela [01:07:43] I love you and so do a lot of people. Thank you for coming on today. You’re a dream come true. 

Phoebe [01:07:49] You’re a dream. I love you. Thanks for having me boo. 

Jameela [01:07:53] Love you. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, is produced a research by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music you’re hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. We also have a bonus series exclusively on Stitcher Premium called Ask Jameela Anything. Check it out. You can get a free month Stitcher Premium by going stitcher.com/premium and using the promo code I Weigh. Lastly, over at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast, you can leave us a voicemail at 1-818-660-5543 or email us what you weigh at Iweighpodcast@gmail.com and now we would love to pass the mic to one of our fabulous listeners. 

Listener [01:08:50] I weigh the fact that I’m the cool fun aunt from out of town and my nieces and nephews get so excited when I attend birthday parties and holidays. I Weigh that my mom doesn’t worry about my mental health anymore. I weigh that everyone around me comes to me for advice and validation. I weigh that I am secure in myself and I know who I am and I weigh that I don’t look at my sizes anymore when I buy clothes.