EP. 362 — Punk Rock Lawyer

Chris [00:00:04] Hello to everybody who prefers striking over grappling. It’s Beautiful Anonymous. One hour. One phone call. No names. No holds barred. Hi, everybody. My name is Chris Gethard, and it’s a joy to be hosting yet another episode of Beautiful Anonymous, the show where we explore humanity one human at a time. And I’m I’m proud to let you know that the first ever Beautiful Anonymous convention is happening May 4th, fifth, sixth and seven in Brooklyn, New York. You can go to BeautifulCononymous for information for the tickets. Hope you also think at the end of this month, March 31st, April 1st, April 2nd. If you’re in New York City, I’m recording my new special at the Minetta Lane Theater, and it’s going to be a great time. ChrisGeth.com for the ticket links on that. Anyway, as predicted, last week’s episode, there was a wide range of feedback. This was, of course, our caller who gave me a pep talk, talked about being from sort of a hidden sect of Judaism in the Mexican community, and it was such a wide ranging feedback. And it shows what a real and honest call it was in many ways. And this week’s call is very real and very honest as well. And I tell you, you guys can hear in my voice, I have been up since 5 a.m. with a sick kid. We just recorded this call. That being said, I did my best to bring the heat, bring the energy. Because this caller had so much to say. This caller is someone who was an anarchist, a tattoo covered anarchist who used to break the law and is now a lawyer. And we got to talking about all sorts of things, the intricacies of what it’s really like to be a lawyer and so many other things about life and responsibility and finding your slot in life and working within a system that you used to not believe in. There’s a lot here. Enjoy it. 

Voicemail Robot [00:02:13] Thank you for calling Beautiful Anonymous. A beeping noise will indicate when you are on the show with the host. 

Caller [00:02:21] Hello? 

Chris [00:02:22] Hello? 

Caller [00:02:23] Hi. 

Chris [00:02:25] Hi. How’s it going? 

Caller [00:02:26] It’s going. How are you doing? 

Chris [00:02:29] I’m okay. It’s been kind of chaotic at the Gethard household, but that’s all right. Everybody but me is sick, so that’s chaos. 

Caller [00:02:37] Oh, no. 

Chris [00:02:38] That’s okay. That’s what it’s like-. 

Caller [00:02:39] Sorry to hear that. 

Chris [00:02:40] That’s what having a toddler is like, is my understanding. 

Caller [00:02:45] Yeah, I can’t relate, unfortunately. 

Chris [00:02:48] I tell you what. It’s a lot.

Caller [00:02:49] Well, maybe fortunately. Right now, fortunately. 

Chris [00:02:53] There you go. There you go. Grass is always greener and whatnot, but. Yeah. 

Caller [00:02:57] Right. 

Chris [00:02:58] I’ve been up since 5 a.m. with a coughing child, trying to buy my wife some time to sleep so she can recover. 

Caller [00:03:05] Oh, well, that’s nice of you. 

Chris [00:03:07] Doing my best. Doing my best. Now, how are you? And now that I’ve vented a little bit. 

Caller [00:03:12] I’m doing alright. 

Chris [00:03:12] Oh, good, good. 

Caller [00:03:14] I’m doing good. It’s a beautiful day here. It’s International Women’s Day. 

Chris [00:03:20] Happy International Women’s Day. 

Caller [00:03:22] So, something to celebrate. I can’t complain. 

Chris [00:03:25] Good. Well, I’m looking forward to our conversation. 

Caller [00:03:28] Me, too. Very much so. 

Chris [00:03:30] All right. What were you, uh what were you thinking we might talk about today? 

Caller [00:03:36] Um, well, I wanted to talk about my journey to becoming an attorney. 

Chris [00:03:41] Ooh. 

Caller [00:03:42] Um, it was a really crazy. It’s pretty crazy. It’s a crazy story. 

Chris [00:03:50] I’m all ears. 

Caller [00:03:51] Okay, so I’ll start from the beginning. I never even wanted to be an attorney. It was never a plan of mine. I, you know, I’m a musician, so I always thought, Hey, I’m gonna go to music school. And a goal of mine was to become a film composer. And I was always just more of a creative person. But my parents were not supportive of me going to music school whatsoever. 

Chris [00:04:17] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. 

Caller [00:04:19] So that dream died very quickly. And after high school, I didn’t know what I was going to do, but I was basically told, you’ll be disowned if you don’t go to college. So I quickly had to just pick something. So I picked management and marketing. I felt it was, you know, a safe bet. So that’s what I picked. And I switched around majors in my head. I almost switched to veterinary medicine because I love animals. But then I was like, You know what? I’m not great at math and science, so I don’t think that’s really going to work out. So after I got my bachelors, I worked for a little bit and I was dating someone at the time who kind of put the idea of law school in my head because he wanted to go. And I wasn’t happy at my job and I felt I needed to do something more with my life. And I was like, you know what? Law school should be easy for me? I love to read and write. So I kind of had this ego going in, but it was the complete opposite. And then the things that happened before law school made things even crazier. 

Chris [00:05:37] Well, that’s intriguing. I have to say, most people don’t just kind of go to law school just because. Already this is unusual. Usually that’s a goal people have and a commitment. Usually people aren’t like, My parents won’t support music. I guess I’ll just become a lawyer. 

Caller [00:05:55] Yeah, it was a it was literally a last minute decision for me. And I’m sure everyone has seen Legally Blonde. It’s funny, but I never really watched it before I went to law school. But I think I finally watched the full movie after. And she’s when she says that, you know, well-known line, like, What? Like it’s hard? And like, I think it’s her I forget like professor that says in the movie, like, Do you think she just woke up one day and decided to go to law school? That was that was me. That was pretty much me. I basically was like, yeah, I’ll give it a shot. Um, so I took the LSAT. I got. I thought that was going to be the hardest part, of course, because I didn’t, you know, I honestly didn’t know better. I did no research. I didn’t talk to anyone about it. I was just like, I’m just going to do it. And then I got in trouble, um, before I started law school, which was crazy. You know, early twenties. I was drinking a lot, hanging out with people that drank a lot. So I found myself in some predicaments. Um, if you want to hear about that. 

Chris [00:07:08] I do. Pretty desperately. 

Caller [00:07:11] Yes. Okay, So first thing, I mean, I’m- full disclosure, I’m lucky I didn’t have worse happen to me. You know, I was, I don’t want to, I didn’t consider myself a person who had a drinking problem. But when I would hang out with everyone on the weekend, we would just blow off steam and I would drink to the point of blacking out. And it was like every single weekend. And I’m lucky I didn’t get in worse trouble with drinking and driving then even. But so the first thing that happened, I was out with some friends. It was wintertime. And we met at this girl’s house. And she wasn’t even really a mutual friend. It was just the friend of a friend, basically. And my other friend I was with was already out on parole for being in trouble multiple times. So we’re like, okay, we have to be careful when we go out tonight because if anything happens, like, then you’re really in deep. So long story short, we’re I’m we’re all pretty much blackout drunk and someone- I think we bumped into some coworkers actually, they called us an Uber, and I knew that we had to go back to this girl’s house. I was like, my car is there, my keys are in that house. We have to go back to this house. So it was just me and my friend, and the girl whose house it was apparently fell asleep at the bar. So she was M.I.A. So we can’t get into the house. It’s like early, early spring, late winter. So it’s still freezing cold out. We don’t have jackets. And we have no way to get into the house. So drunk me thought it’d be a great idea to just start trying to break down the front door, which I guess I damaged quite a bit, but we still couldn’t get in. So we went around the back and there was this glass door and I just wasn’t even thinking. Bare elbow just elbowed right through the door. 

Chris [00:09:31] That is bad ass. That’s one of those things where you go, that is the exact combination of foolish and bad ass that lets me know I’m dealing with a very real person right here. Elbowing through glass doors? Pretty badass. We’re gonna hear how that turned out and so much more when we get back. Thanks again to all of our advertisers. Now, let’s get back to the phone call. 

Caller [00:09:59] And there was this glass door and I just wasn’t even thinking. Bare elbow, just elbowed right through the door. 

Chris [00:10:07] Oh, jeez. 

Caller [00:10:09] Glass everywhere. I’m bleeding all over this house. But I got my friend inside, and I think at that moment I was just thinking, I just want her to be in here. I just want her to be safe. And then I think I just left her there, grabbed my keys, left. I woke up the next morning, still drunk, blood all over my sheets. I should have gotten stitches. And all of a sudden she’s calling me, freaking out. And I guess when the girl got back there, she thought it was her that did it. And I was like, No, no, I think it was me. It was me. It was me. And then before I know it, couple of minutes later, the cops call me. And they’re like, okay, here’s the deal. Um, this is a felony. This is breaking- I think they wanted to get me with breaking and entering and conspiracy, but they would have to press charges against both of us. And they weren’t- the owner of the house wasn’t going to press charges against my friend because she was out on parole, and she automatically would have went to jail. So they didn’t want to do that. But the rule is you either have both or you have not. So lucky me, they had they signed a no arrest warrant because they couldn’t press charges against just me. So we agreed to pay off the damages. So that day we met with the police. I was like, Here’s the money for all the damage. And they’re like, Okay, we’ll here’s here’s the no arrest warrant, but if you ever show up on this property again, you will be arrested on sight. I’m like, fair, fair. And you think that would have been a wake up call for me? But no. Couple of months later, it was I think-. 

Chris [00:12:03] That was just the prelude? 

Caller [00:12:04] I want to say-. 

Chris [00:12:04] That wasn’t even the real story? 

Caller [00:12:09] Yeah. This time wasn’t so bad, but it happened literally right before I was supposed to go to law school, cause, you know, I did I did get accepted to a place. Actually even got a little bit of a scholarship because I had such a good GPA in undergrad. And it was a concert. And I was with my ex was with me at the time and a friend was also with us and of course we were drinking at the concert, met, bumped into people from high school. So, you know, we’re hanging out with them afterwards. And I thought I was okay to drive. But apparently I wasn’t. I got pulled over for speeding initially, and as soon as I got pulled over, I knew. I was like, I’m getting a DUI. I was like, This is it. I’m like… I’m getting a DUI. And sure enough, he said he could smell it on me. But I was comply- I, I was really happy, actually, that I got a DUI then when I did, because I wasn’t that drunk. If it would have been old me… And like to the point of being blackout drunk, I probably would have got really confrontational and I probably would have made things 100 times worse. And I would have been in more trouble, because in the state it happened, you know, they go by blood alcohol level for certain offenses. And I would think I was like just over the legal limit when it happened. The cop’s really nice to me. You know, I did what I had to do. And my court date and everything was for after I was supposed to leave for law school. Like I, I’m like, I don’t know what to do. Like, I. Cause I was going 8 hours away to another state to law school. Luckily, I hire the best attorney. He expedited everything for me. But I did lose my license right before leaving, so I couldn’t even drive my car. My ex and I actually ended up going to law school together. He actually ended up selling his car and then we just took mine and it was just it was insane. And then after that, that was kind of my wake up call because, you know, even before getting in trouble with the law, I was just getting in trouble with friends for being an idiot, for drinking too much and it’s really horrible waking up the next day and having to ask people, you know, what did I say? What did I do? How did I get home? Because I legitimately couldn’t remember anything. And what hurt me the most is people didn’t believe that because I guess I seem coherent even when I’m blackout drunk because I’m not stumbling around and I guess I’m not slurring my words. So after that, I was like, you know what? I’m going to law school. I really can’t afford to get in trouble anymore. Like this is it. Like this needs to end. And I basically have I swore off drinking at that point, and I really haven’t drank since. 

Chris [00:15:31] So you had you had, like, the wakeup call that you ignored and then you had the like, stop pushing snooze on the wakeup call, this alarm is really going off. And you paid attention to that one. 

Caller [00:15:43] Yes, I did, especially because at that point I was accepted to law school. Like it was official, like everything getting done. And then it was I just kept being a fool and, you know, really pushing my luck. And but I mean, I definitely got really lucky. Things could have been a lot worse with both situations. And I made it through law school even though it was really, really difficult. I think after the first year I was like, is this really what I want to do? And then even after I graduated, I graduated as soon as the pandemic hit. So, you know, I didn’t have a graduation ceremony, anything like that. And things changed with the bar exam. They moved everything online. I was like, I can’t. I’m like, I don’t want to do this online because I was so used to taking tests in person. So after the pandemic, I was like, You know what? I don’t even want to take the bar. I was like, screw this, you know? And of course, I got a lot of pushback from my parents. And I’m a first generation everything, so, you know, I always get this guilt trip, especially from my dad, like, I didn’t come to this country for you not to try. And, you know, and then I took that really personal, too. I try not to let my parents’ opinions of me get to me too much, especially since I’m kind of I feel like the black sheep of my family a little bit. But I was like, you’re kind of right. Like I should just try. And then so I worked for this entrepreneur for a little bit. And he kind of convinced me too. He’s like, I want another lawyer on my team and like and then he made promises that he was going to like, help me out as far as finances, because it’s not cheap. I mean, law school alone is disgustingly expensive and then you have your bar fees and getting a bar tutor and study materials and having to take time off work, it’s insane. Um, but eventually I just quit that job. I was like, I’m just going to do this. I’m going to do it on my own. And I took the test last last February. One and done. Passed. And now I’ve moved out of the state where I was living to a new state where I took the bar for and I’ve been with this firm now for six months. And I have been a practicing attorney since since September 2022. 

Chris [00:18:23] Now, what kind of law did you go into? 

Caller [00:18:25] Again, because life is funny and it never goes any direction I really wanted it to go, I said I never wanted to be a trial attorney. I don’t want to do litigation, as much as I love public speaking and performing, but that’s more of my creative side, arguing in front of a judge and, you know, doing a whole show in front of a jury and everything is a whole nother story. But that’s where I am. I’m doing personal injury and we’ll call him bossman, he’s basically my overseeing attorney, he is a certified trial attorney in the state and has a really good reputation. So eventually I’ll be trying my own cases, but I’m actually really excited about it. I ultimately wanted to do intellectual property because of my creative side, but it’s such a small niche and I, you know, looking for a job after the bar I wanted to, you know, keep my options open. I didn’t want to just try and set myself on one thing. And it’s actually really funny how he hired me, um, which is another funny story, because a lot of times, you know I am not- let’s put it this way. I’ve been told time and time again that I do not look like a lawyer. I’m a bodybuilder, I’m covered in tattoos, I have piercings. And like even my closest friends, like, they know me as the creative type and kind of a rebel. You know, I considered myself like a hardcore anarchist, especially when, like, I started college. I was like really into, you know, reading Noam Chomsky and everything and like, I was all about that life and, and now I’m practicing law. It’s bizarre. And a lot of these firms, they want, you know, Harvard Law grads and they want your GPA to be immaculate and everything. And that’s just not me. You’d think passing the bar would be good enough. But some of these firms are really picky. And I was getting frustrated in my job search. And, you know, you do a cover letter and in my cover letter I’m like, Hey, I really like MMA. This is what I do. I’m a musician, all that type of stuff. And that’s how my boss hired me. He read my cover letter. He is an athlete. He does MMA wrestling. And we were both in the service industry for forever. He was a bartender and a waitressed since I was like 11. I’m not even exaggerating. I’ve been in the service industry starting at 11 years old. And that was another reason he hired me, because we relate on that. And we also believe we are who we are now and we know how to deal with the public because of being in that industry for so long. So after my first interview with him, I was like, I want this job. It’s in a beautiful area. We’ll just say it’s in the tri states. Never, I never want to leave. It’s and I before I knew it, a week later, I found out I got the job. And I was like, Yes, yes, yes. I don’t want to work for anyone else. These are my people. You know, he has tattoos, too, like very laid back. I didn’t want an uptight, super traditional- I just didn’t want that. I wanted to be comfortable in my job. I work better that way. I didn’t want to feel like I was constantly walking on eggshells. And I was afraid too, as as a female in this profession, I still get, Oh, this must be the secretary. Oh, this must be the paralegal. It’s like, No. Screw you. I’m the attorney. 

Chris [00:22:34] Even with the tattoos and MMA? 

Caller [00:22:37] Yeah. 

Chris [00:22:38] That sucks. 

Caller [00:22:39] It’s wild. It still I feel like it still hasn’t sunk in, all the craziness I went through, all the hard work I put in. And because after I found out I passed the bar, I thought I was going to have this, you know, you see videos sometimes with big emotional reactions. And I was just like, Oh, I passed. Because I didn’t think I really believed it. And it still hasn’t hit me. Like it’s wild. I have my own office. You know, I have it decorated with my- I’m putting my guitar in the wall and I have shelves full of like action figures and it’s just me. And I love that I get to be me. But still being, you know, still be a professional. It’s crazy. 

Chris [00:23:30] Yeah. That’s cool. Do you- are you just a fan of MMA or do you do it as well? Sounds like your boss does it. 

Caller [00:23:38] Yeah, he does. I did it for a little bit before I moved out here. Um, I was doing it in the evenings, and now it’s, it’s, I’m trying to find a place here, but it’s hard with time, especially because I don’t want to spread myself too thin. I’m already up at four, four in the morning to go to the gym before I come to work. And I’m working on new music that I want to get out there. And it’s just finding the time and a lot of time I’m exhausted. Especially if we have like a crazy day full of depositions, and if we have to run to court and we have to go here and there and I’m just exhausted by the time I come home. 

Chris [00:24:20] I get it. 

Caller [00:24:20] But I’d love to get back into it eventually. 

Chris [00:24:23] Yeah, I’m just starting to get back into jujitsu myself and haven’t watched as much MMA in recent years, but I used watch. Did you ever watch a, I know UFC caught on, but I was watching back in like the early 2000’s when the big league was actually called Pride. Did you ever watch Pride? The Japanese League? 

Caller [00:24:40] No, never heard of it. 

Chris [00:24:42] Oh, it was nuts. It was nuts. They had no weight classes and they didn’t care if people did steroids. And every fight, you were like, someone might die. And it was the best. It was insane. But anyway. 

Caller [00:24:53] That sounds wild. 

Chris [00:24:54] It was. It was really pretty nuts. And I liked it in a big way. I’m glad things worked out. I’m glad things… I’m glad you didn’t succumb. You know, you got lucky a couple of times and then also shaped up. And it sounds like things have really gotten a new track. But I feel like I identify in a certain way. Like I definitely came from a background of of being like a troublemaker, rabble rouser, punk rocker. And now all of a sudden, I’m like, Man, I’m like, I’m just like a balding dad in the suburbs. What happened? But I also did a lot of cool stuff along the way. But when you said that feeling of that, you’re like a tattooed anarchist, how did you all of a sudden, you know, because to be a lawyer… Is the opposite in many ways, you could argue, of being an anarchist, right? Like an anarchist fundamentally would go, that entire system is broken. I don’t even want to participate in that whole system. And a lawyer is someone whose job is effectively, I will learn all the minutia of the system so as to navigate the system. Right? You could think of it that way. 

Caller [00:26:03] Oh, 100%. But my perspective also kind of changed even as far back as law school. Well, it’s funny you say, you know, you’re yeah, you are a punk rock guy. And it’s bossman, him- it’s him and his brother. So they’re the two other attorneys and then it’s just me. They’re the same way. Old school punk rock guys. Like when we’re driving together to the court, I’m hearing, you know, all these old school bands. It’s great. I love it. But yeah, even as far back as law school, I- your whole perception of things and your whole way of thinking changes. And yeah, a lot of stuff pisses you off. A lot of stuff pisses us off now even with certain laws and everything. But we are part of, you know, these communities of other lawyers that want to change that want to change things. And I look at it that way. If we can make our voices heard and, you know, influence others to change certain laws or just change even perspective perspectives, especially when it comes to our clients, I think that’s a big deal. And that’s how I try and look at things now, because I’ve met, you know, there are some attorneys that, you know, they’re a pain in the ass- excuse my language, but they are- that have a totally different way of thinking than we do. Um, it’s, it’s wild. There’s so many stereotypes of lawyers that just need to die, especially with more females coming in. 

Chris [00:27:50] You’re saying the stereotypes need to die, not the lawyers. A lot of people would argue that the lawyers need to die. That’s the old joke. You’re saying the stereotypes need to die. 

Caller [00:28:00] Exactly. 

Chris [00:28:01] Okay. 

Caller [00:28:02] And I love seeing just how pa- I’ve become so passionate, even just with our clients, because, you know, we’re the plaintiffs attorneys and not all, but some defense attorneys automatically think our client is lying and, you know, putting on a show and it’s like, screw you. Like this is legitimate and we’re going to do everything we can to bring, you know, some sort of justice for them. It’s crazy. There’s just so many different types of lawyers. We’ll put it that way. And we are, I feel like we are the punk rock lawyers, for sure. We are not- and, you know, they’re they’re not, well, because a lot of older lawyers are more, you know, strict in their ways and very stubborn. And they’re not like that because I think it’s it’s more our generation, millennials, I guess we would be considered. I’m not even sure. I feel like those ages are always changing. But yeah, it’s. 

Chris [00:29:11] I love it. 

Caller [00:29:12] It’s crazy. I never I never thought- if you asked me in high school or even starting college, if I’d ever become a lawyer, I’d be like, You’re out of your mind. Yeah, it’s just insane how I had all these, you know, aspirations of, like, I’m just going to be a musician and but no, I mean, I’m still a musician. That’s the beauty of it, right?

Chris [00:29:34] What kind of music do you play? 

Caller [00:29:36] Oh, I do everything I’ve, I’ve composed for short horror films, I have a IMDB which is really cool. A lot of acoustic stuff. I do a lot of electronic and synthy stuff that’s been like my main thing lately. I love synths and electronic music. I love metal, I love everything. I do it all. I sing, I play guitar, piano. I don’t do it as much as I’d like to, only because, you know, I’m a big girl and I have a career now, but it’s still there and it’s always going to be there. And when I have the time, I do it. 

Chris [00:30:15] Now you’re going into litigation. I’m wondering your perspective on… If I remember right, you said you haven’t started, you know, right now you you’re on the team and you’re ramping up to when you’ll actually be the one arguing in court, right? I believe you said? 

Caller [00:30:31] Mmhmm. 

Chris [00:30:32] I was going to say, I wonder what your priorities are as a as a as a former anarchist, current musician, person who breaks the stereotypes of the law, because I know I have a friend who he was one of my roommates in college, actually, and he became a lawyer. He’s on the defense side of things. He’s a defense attorney and I’m really proud of him. He does cool stuff, but he’s broken my heart a few times telling me how much of the legal system is, when you get caught in the legal system, it’s so complex that it’s very easy to just keep stumbling in the legal system. For example, one of his early jobs as a public defender was not being in the courtroom, not trying to help people get the facts down for their case. One of his early jobs was he had to go to a prison and explain to people the ways in which they broke these very hard to decipher parole laws. That basically people on parole, it’s so complex that it’s insanely easy to violate parole without even realizing it and that it was his job to go break bad news to people over and over and over again. And I’m really glad he pushed through it because he kept going. And I think he’s done a lot of good for people. But I remember in those early days going, man, it just sounds like this system in place and this system that has good and a lot of bad. And I have to imagine if you’re someone who identified as an anarchist and also, let’s face facts, was something of a law breaker yourself, someone who liked to walk the line, I’m wondering what your perspective is as far as is it really just that you’re, you know, you said I think you said I’m a grown up now and I got a job to do. There’s elements of that. But is there any part of you that’s starting to see this system in a way where you might be able to draw some lines in the sand as one of the punk rock lawyers out there? 

Caller [00:32:26] Oh, 100%. If I could give an example, since we do personal injury, this is the one thing that I’ve- one of the things I learned coming in that still really irks me. There’s this law put in place- so we do personal injury. So a lot of what our clients get will be mainly from settlements. A lot of the time, you know, a trial can happen, but usually, I mean, my boss loves going to trial no matter what. He’s like, he’s like, Hey, you don’t want to settle? Fine. He’s like, Let’s do it. But a lot of times they want to settle, right? So if our client is on Medicare or Medicaid, there was this law passed by George W Bush in like one of the like maybe the early 2000’s or so that says if you receive any compensation in a settlement, you have to pay back whatever Medicaid or Medicare paid in your medical expenses. And time and time again- and I remember questing- questioning it because I was like, wait a minute, if this is being paid by the state, like, why do they have to pay that back? And he’s like, it’s just what it is. It’s the law. And we get so many clients that are like, why- if this was paid for, why do I have to pay them back? Why do I have to pay them back? I’m like, I know. It’s not fair. But that’s just an example. I mean, even- because we are also public defenders, so we get some stuff from like the local courts, so we get, you know, DUI’s or what have you. And luckily I haven’t encountered any horrible judges yet. I’m still meeting a lot of them. And, you know, we talk to the prosecutor prosecutor beforehand, and they’ll work with us a little bit. But I don’t think it’s fair when, you know, we have these clients… I mean, because medical debt for everyone is ridiculous, right? I mean, I have my own medical debt because I have to meet a deductible for health- I think health insurance is a scam. Don’t let me get started on that. But I just don’t think it’s fair that we have these clients, some with permanent injuries that they’re going to have for the rest of their life, um I just sometimes feel like there’s not any number worth putting on that, especially when they’re expected to pay back medical bills that were already paid for. Let’s put it that way. 

Chris [00:34:54] Yeah, I had no idea about that. 

Caller [00:34:55] Yeah, it’s insane. And some some of these clients have, you know, disgusting amounts in medical bills. Like some I’ve seen, you know, almost triple like hundreds of thousands of dollars, depending how bad it is. 

Chris [00:35:17] This show. I just want to be clear. I’m very exhausted today. The number of times I’ve started screaming my head off about the American health care system, I didn’t even have the energy to start screaming and yelling this time. Hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. You got to hire a lawyer just to help you try to survive and not drown in that debt. It’s so messed up. It’s so messed up. We’re gonna hear how you help clients in that situation. We’re going to hear a lot more when we get back. Thanks to all of our advertisers who helped make the show happen. Now, let’s finish off the phone call. 

Caller [00:35:56] Some I’ve seen, you know, almost triple like hundreds of thousands of dollars, depending how bad it is. And then there comes the fun of trying to, you know, sit on a number with defense. And sometimes they don’t want to budge. You know, we make a demand and they’re like, well, we’re not going to go over this certain amount. And it’s like, okay, that’s not going to be worth it for us because, you know, it’s not just money going to our client. It’s whatever expenses we paid and money owed to us as well. So it’s it’s insane. We had one client… She lost her sense of smell. From tripping and falling somewhere. And the amount she receives I thought was not, I mean, I would ask for way more, but she was happy with it. And, you know, I, I was like, if I lost my sense of smell for the rest of my life, I don’t even know if there would be a number to put on that. For me. It’s just wild. And like I think of my mom because she’s a chef and I’m like, if she, if omething happened to her and she lost her sense of smell, like, her livelihood would be finished. Like, how would you put a number on that? It just. It blows my mind. 

Chris [00:37:17] Wow. How much can you bench? You said you’re a bodybuilder, too. 

Caller [00:37:23] Oh, I don’t even know how much I’m benching. Oh, I know that some days I feel stronger. Some days not so much. 

Chris [00:37:33] I know that feeling emotional- for me, that’s the emotional side of my life. For you that’s actually in terms of bodybuilding. 

Caller [00:37:40] Yeah. 

Chris [00:37:41] For me, I just get out of bed, I go, I feel stronger today. Oh, no, I feel very weak. That’s just getting out of bed for me. In my head. 

Caller [00:37:49] So getting out of bed for you is tough? 

Chris [00:37:51] On some days, yeah. Yeah, for sure. But that’s okay. I keep managing to do it, so I’m all right. I want to talk about you, though. My bodybuilding lawyer friend. They must not want to fuck with you guys. Let’s be honest. Let’s start using the real language that we use here. There’s times where you walk in and it’s a bunch of these nerdy wimps, and then you guys roll in and you look like a wrestling faction covered in tattoos and you’re all jacked. And they’re like, This is not the lawyers we usually deal with. There is there has to be some fun intimidation factor for being jacked tattooed lawyers, right? 

Caller [00:38:26] Yeah, I definitely have conference- confidence that comes from it. It’s funny, my boss even said the other day to me that I’m very intimidating and I’ve gotten that my entire life. I feel like I have bitch face a little bit, even though people say I don’t. But I feel like I do. And, you know, I’m a little bit tall. I don’t think I’m that tall, but yeah, but he said it’s a positive. He’s like, You’re even intimidating to our clients. He’s like, but that’s good. I’m like, okay. 

Chris [00:38:55] Yeah, people probably don’t show up late. People don’t miss appointments when you tell them to be there. 

Caller [00:39:00] Well, that’s just it. Some clients can be a pain to deal with, just even to get a call back. But that’s just. That’s the profession. I mean, that’s, that’s why part of why I was hired, because I know how to deal with people. Because, you know, being in the restaurant industry, you deal with a lot of laziness there. So… 

Chris [00:39:19] So I imagine that translates in a lot of ways. Like you probably see a lot of people making false claims to try to make a buck. You probably get people who are trying to shuffle off responsibility for mistakes they made to other people constantly. I would imagine that being in the restaurant business and being a lawyer, you kind of learn the same tells that people use to try to shuffle responsibility around. 

Caller [00:39:46] For sure. And there is,yeah, we had some clients we’ve, you know, had to cut loose. We had one recently where it was a car accident and he was beat up pretty bad. And then we got the police report and found that was all his fault. So we’re like, we can’t take this on. But of course, he was adamant that it wasn’t his fault. But we’re like, it’s going to be very tough to argue that it wasn’t. So yeah, there of course, yeah, there are- some people like to- that’s another thing. They automatically like to label our clients as oh, they just want money, but we try to be really careful and weeding out those types of people, you know? Because it would just be a waste of time for everyone, and especially if it’s a losing matter and you know it’s a losing matter. But that’s what I like when I do intakes, I try to get as much detail information as possible because that’s the last thing you need. And there’s a big issue right now in the state I’m practicing in specifically of we have a shortage of judges. 

Chris [00:40:57] In New Jersey I know that’s a fact as well. I don’t know if you’re in Jersey, you don’t have to say. And I think being a lawyer, you have to keep some anonymity. 

Caller [00:41:06] That’s fine. I am in New Jersey. 

Chris [00:41:08] Yeah, I know I know that’s a big thing here. 

Caller [00:41:11] Yep. 

Chris [00:41:11] Sucks. 

Caller [00:41:12] Yeah. And the issue with that is some judges just want to rush cases through now, and a lot of lawyers are coming together and saying, No, no, no, you can’t just rush through cases just because we have a backlog. That that’s going to not be fair at all to a lot of clients. 

Chris [00:41:32] And then people go, well, the counter argument is people getting stuck in the legal system for way longer than than than they should while they’re waiting for a judge. And then I’ve also heard part of it, too, you’ll know more about this than I do, but I found it very fascinating, which is that there’s also a lot of judges now… To fill this void, who are being placed in areas that are these super long commutes that aren’t standard for judges, which also affects the ability of a judge to get there and be there and dedicate time to it. That it’s like, oh, you might have somebody traveling from one corner of the state all the way to another when that’s not how it’s been up until now. I’ve heard about the stress on the system in a big way. 

Caller [00:42:17] Yeah, it’s crazy. I mean, I think it kind of started with COVID, with the backlog. I’m trying to remember what sort of cases exactly they kind of put on pause right now. There was like two different kinds. I think divorce was one. 

Chris [00:42:33] I’ve heard that as well. Which can you imagine if you’ve decided to get a divorce and you got all the paperwork signed and you’re like, we’re just waiting on a judge to make this official. Like, that has so many mental implications, so many life implications. I also imagine custody gets tied up in that constantly. It’s, what a nightmare for people. 

Caller [00:42:52] Yeah, I can’t even imagine. It’s it’s insane. And I think going back to what type of why I wanted to go into, I think Family Law was the number one I did not want anything to do with because it’s very… It’s very mentally taxing. When I did an externship back during law school, I externed with another musician attorney. One of his more famous client, more famous clients was Aretha Franklin, actually. 

Chris [00:43:25] Oh wow. 

Caller [00:43:27] But. Yeah, he’s, he’s the man. But we had an issue with it was like a basically domestic violence. And I had to interview this woman with her child in the room about every incident in which her husband was beating her. And it broke my heart. 

Chris [00:43:47] Yeah, that’s. Whew.

Caller [00:43:49] And it was just this back and forth for the longest time. And I think they had like two kids together and she had the- and these are super young kids, too. I was like, I don’t, I was like, I can’t. I mean, because, you know, lawyer is a pretty stressful gig to begin with. But especially in fields like that, it can really take a mental toll. 

Chris [00:44:13] Well, it’s it’s one of those jobs, and I identify with this to a certain degree, but it’s one of those jobs where… Part of it is figuring out how to be off the clock and let things go. And that’s so much easier said than done. And I have to imagine. 

Caller [00:44:31] Exactly. 

Chris [00:44:32] If you’ve been dealing with a case where someone’s been injured and there’s a- right- if if you’re dealing with you deal with with a personal injury and right there I go, you’re dealing with a case where someone got injured and there’s some corporation that has more money than God and they’re fighting over nickels, whereas this person is never going to have a fully functioning leg again, it’s like, how do you go home after that and totally forget about the unfairness of a world that somehow convinces themselves that corporations have rights equal to people? It’s just it’s maddening. Let alone, as you mentioned, something like family law, like how do you see a family where, you know, whatever the circumstances are, something has gone wrong and perhaps whatever’s happening with the parents, you know there’s a kid stuck in the middle and you can see, oh, there’s such an uphill battle for the rest of this kid’s life because of things that are happening right now and things that aren’t happening quick enough and efficiently enough and in any way that’s fair. And then I also just have to go home and just like, I guess make myself some microwave lasagna and watch Mandalorian like it’s a normal day for anyone else? It’s impossible. I don’t know how you do it. 

Caller [00:45:41] Yeah, and it’s even after law school, but especially after this job, I just see, especially when I’m out in public or I’m out in like these big stores like Walmart or something and I see something that could cause an injury, I’m like (GASPS) that’s a liability right there. Like, I’m constantly scanning and we deal with a lot a lot of car accidents. And I feel like since dealing with that, my anxiety with driving is through the roof anymore. Especially on the parkway, like forget it. I’m I’m like, I’m like, oh my God, someone’s gonna hit me. Someone’s going to hit me. Like, all these people are crazy. Like, cause we see, like, just, you know, people don’t pay attention or they’re going through red lights, what have you, and then our client gets annihilated. And they have horrible injuries and all because of someone else’s negligence. And I’m like- and I’ve been hit a couple of times now. Thankfully nothing substantial, but it’s always people hitting me. And you have to remember, like, people are crazy and they’re not paying attention. And one, you could just be in the wrong place at the wrong time. So every time I’m driving now, I just have horrible, horrible anxiety because of all the car accident cases that we deal with. I’ve noticed, like when I’m driving that I’m like more hyper aware than I’ve ever been before. 

Chris [00:47:11] Well, look, I’m the biggest pro Jersey person you’ll ever meet. If you’ve been listening to this show for more than two episodes, everybody knows that. But if there’s one stereotype that we are is true, you’ve got to watch out on these roads out here, people. You got to watch out on these roads out here. I mean, I feel like if you have if you are a personal injury lawyer and you deal with car accidents in New Jersey, I mean, Route 22 alone, Route one and nine, Route three, just those three roads, you could probably have a thriving career just off of those. And that’s just North Jersey. I don’t even know what it’s like down there on the Whitehorse Pike down there in South Jersey. Jeez. 

Caller [00:47:49] Oh, yeah. North, north is definitely worse. 

Chris [00:47:52] Oh, it is. 

Caller [00:47:53] For sure. 

Chris [00:47:54] It is. We are- my mother in law just moved to Jersey, to be closer to us and to my brother in law. Whole family’s out here. It was time. We found her a really nice place. And I’m not going to dox my mother in law. I won’t say what town, but I’ll say it’s, it’s in an area where she’s- we found a really nice place, but I was worried as soon as I heard- it’s not in like Union or Springfield, but you do- to leave her complex, you do have to take Route 22. And I’m like, Man, anybody who knows Route 22 in New Jersey, I’m like, even in the more peaceful stretch out in the western part of the state, I’m like, oh my goodness, my mother in law driving on that road. That is that is a tough road. You got to get used to that. And you see that. You see that all the time. You know what else I was thinking about? Now that it’s been revealed, you’re also in my state, is you have done MMA, it sounds like your boss still does. And I’ve just gotten back into training jujitsu. There is probably more than any other caller that there is a minuscule chance that you and I have wrestled or I have wrestled your boss. That wouldn’t be a total shock. It’s not a huge amount of MMA gyms in this state. 

Caller [00:49:05] Yeah, that’s true. I’ve noticed that on my search. 

Chris [00:49:09] Yeah. If your boss has wrestled that a- I just started going to Silver Fox in East Hanover. I really like that place. I went and checked out B Team down in Middlesex. I really like that. They have a bunch of classes that fit my schedule. I’m like, Man, I maybe I’ve wrestled your boss. Maybe someday you’ll like-. 

Caller [00:49:25] Probably. 

Chris [00:49:25] Maybe someday I’ll tap out in a jiu jitsu class to a a tattooed woman on the taller side, and then you’ll just quietly go, I’m the caller with the DUIs. And then I’ll go, What? And you’ll submit me. That’s not an un- 

Caller [00:49:43] That would be great.

Chris [00:49:44] That’s not. That could happen. 

Caller [00:49:46] I’m manifesting it now. 

Chris [00:49:47] Oh, boy. 

Caller [00:49:48] Putting it out there. 

Chris [00:49:49] What if you were? Here’s a question I don’t know that I’ve asked any caller, at least in a long time. If you were- thinking back to your MMA days, if you had preferred submission holds, if you were going to try to submit me in a fight, what what what do you think your game plan would be here? 

Caller [00:50:06] Oh, my gosh. Well, I’m- full transparency, I’m a total amateur. 

Chris [00:50:11] Oh, same. 

Caller [00:50:11] I don’t think I’ve- I don’t think I’ve ever submitted anyone. It was always me getting. 

Chris [00:50:18] Okay. Okay. So you’re pretty green. Cuz even I’ve submitted people and I’m a fucking wimp. 

Caller [00:50:22] I was better at the jiu jitsu was still really new for me. I did karate for forever, so I was more into the muay tai aspect. 

Chris [00:50:32] You’d just be like unleashing leg kicks on me. You’d just be leaving bruises. 

Caller [00:50:36] Yeah, I love punching and kicking. 

Chris [00:50:39] Okay. 

Caller [00:50:40] Jiu jitsu I always got I always got manhandled. I would be I, I miss all the bruises. I’m not going to lie. I miss being bruised up from jiu jitsu or-. 

Chris [00:50:49] Me too. Why is that so addictive? 

Caller [00:50:53] I don’t know. 

Chris [00:50:54] Why is it so addictive? 

Caller [00:50:55] I don’t know, but I miss it. 

Chris [00:50:57] A buddy of mine started doing jiu jitsu. He’s like, he used to do it, and he started sending me- and this will make sense to you and anybody out there who’s familiar with it. But to other people, you’ll be like, What are you talking about? He sent me pictures of the tops of his feet after his first few weeks doing it, and he had all those bruises and the mat burns, and I was so jealous. His feet looked like someone had beat them with a hammer. And I was so jealous. I was like, I got to sign back up. I’m putting on too much weight. I got to go. I got to let some of this rage out. Gotta fight somebody. 

Caller [00:51:27] Yeah, that’s another reason I loved it. That’s why I love punching so much. And that’s- I need that more than ever now. That’s it. I have to go back too. That’s for sure. But yeah, the bruises. Yeah, my feet, they were completely- now I just get bruises from bumping into my desk. It’s embarrassing. 

Chris [00:51:45] Yeah. I used to walk around with black eyes and stuff and bruises all over my biceps from people flinging me across the room and grabbing me. And I was weirdly proud of it. I was weirdly proud of it. But I’ll get back to that. 

Caller [00:51:59] Yeah. It’s like your battle scars. 

Chris [00:52:01] This is a motivator. It’s true. It’s true. When you when you have a client who’s been involved in a DUI, who comes to you for for, you know, comes to your firm and eventually to you representing them, do you have more or less sympathy considering the fact that that you were you were sticking your neck out in that way? 

Caller [00:52:22] Oh, more sympathy for sure. 

Chris [00:52:23] Really? 

Caller [00:52:24] For sure. I do. I do. I because it would be like so hypocritical of me to easily judge someone on their past and mistakes they’ve made and like and just me be like, well, way to go. Like you should have known better. It’s it’s I can’t be like that. 

Chris [00:52:46] For sure. 

Caller [00:52:47] I mean, there’s certain things of course, I never, ever, ever, ever give any sympathy to for anyone for, like, you know, more serious crimes, whether it’s like, like pedophilia, for example, or anything like that. There’s not there’s no excuse to me whatsoever for anything like that. But, you know, when I look at DUI’s and stuff like that, it’s, a mistake. And, you know, we’re dealing with some of those now as clients and they’re they’re really good people. They and they’re trying to do better. Most of the time, you know, they’re trying to change. And for them, it was a wakeup call like it was for me. And they’re complying. And, you know, get in touch with us when we ask them to. And I there’s I don’t have this holier than thou outlook, especially because of the position I’m in now. I’ve never been that way. I just I it’s easier to relate to my clients in that way. 

Chris [00:53:50] I do wonder, and I’m not trying to put you on the spot because I respect the hell out of that answer, and I think you need to have empathy and you need to have compassion and you need to have optimism, because a lot of lawyers, the stereotype is that when that optimism dies, that’s when it just becomes I’m a part of the system and the system sucks, but it’s my job, whatever. Right? But I will say- and I wonder if they train you for this in law school or if this is something that people learn on the job, numbers wise… Food for thought, devil’s advocate, when you say like there’s people who see it as a wake up call to try to have better lives. Like the idea that someone gets their license suspended, well, if that somebody has to provide for a family and they can no longer drive, the ideal is that they go, this was a massive wake up call. Thank you for get me through it. And it never happens again. And they never get behind the wheel while when they’ve had a drink ever. Right? Like that’s. And then they’re able to provide for their family. Lesson learned. Everybody walks away better for it. No harm, no foul. Numbers wise, though, people have problems. There will be enough cases where someday, maybe you help somebody and then they do get behind the wheel of a car and something awful happens where they or someone else gets hurt. How do lawyers- because that’s just facts, right? That’s just part of it. How do you- are you- are there classes in law school for that or is that more the the the reckoning you have to do when you’re out there? 

Caller [00:55:19] No, it’s more of a you learn as you practice type deal. Um they don’t really they kind of touch on like… You know, aside from theory classes, they kind of touch on mental health for lawyers especially, they talk about alcoholism. I think we had to watch a video about it because I think statistically for lawyers, alcoholism is huge. I think they also have a crazy high depression suicide rate. 

Chris [00:55:50] And coke, the stereotype, too, is that a lot of cocaine in law schools, that’s the that’s the stereotype, right? 

Caller [00:55:56] Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I think I haven’t come across I have met some attorneys that have admitted to using it in the past. Or have used it used it recently. Not around here, but ones I’ve talked to while I was in law school. But I haven’t come across anyone who was, you know, really into that. They don’t really teach you how to deal with clients. The only other thing that would be related to that, there’s a class you have to take for ethics. Otherwise, like what I what you learn in law school and actual practice is night and day. 100%. What you learn in law school is just basically for the bar. Um, everything I learned for the bar, that’s out of my brain since I took it. I’m focused on basically one area now. It’s crazy. And I knew it was going to be different and it’s a lot better. I and I was told so many times, Oh, just wait until you’re in actual practice, blah blah blah. But you know what? It’s 100% better. I love it. I didn’t think I’d love it as much as I do. But again, I think it goes back to working for someone I really admire and respect and that is so laid back and accepts me for me and isn’t on my ass about, you know, dumb things all the time and isn’t super critical. Even if I make little mistakes, it isn’t like I get yelled at or anything. It’s just like, Oh, no big deal, which is great. I love it. I love being able or if I’m on the spot and it’s something I’ve never dealt with before and I kind of have to wing it, I, I don’t get any crap for it. It’s great. I’m constantly living and learning. And it’s, it’s funny when I ask them, you know, around the time I first started, I’m like, I don’t know how to do this. And, you know, you’re not taught this. I don’t know how to file this. Whenever they’re like, Oh, fake it till you make it. And they keep saying it. Any time anything comes up, it’s fake it til you make it. And they admit themselves that they are still doing that exact same thing a lot of the time. So that always puts me at ease. 

Chris [00:58:17] So as somebody who came up anarchist, as somebody who ran into some slight trouble with the law and got lucky and that was inside the legal system from your perspective… And somebody who sees how hard it is and who says, I could never do family law, I do wonder, in your opinion, what makes a good lawyer? 

Caller [00:58:45] Being completely transparent and honest. I hate bullshitters. A lot of the people I went to law school, bullshitters. A lot of them. And including, I think that’s why it didn’t really last with my ex, because I could just see I feel like I could see right through people like that. And I know when someone is lying to me. I can’t stand that. And again, just going back to working with with these brothers, like they are completely themselves. And we don’t try and trick any of our clients, whether it’s our clients or opposing counsel or whoever. We’re completely transparent and honest about everything, even if it’s something you know, we messed up on. If there’s, like, a minor mistake with whatever getting documents to whoever in a certain amount of time, we admit to our fault. Because, you know, we work with some opposing counsel who won’t admit to anything and they’re just not doing what they’re supposed to do. And then they project whatever they’re not doing or supposed to be doing, they project it back on us and scream at us about whatever. Um, but I feel like that’s the number one thing is just being completely transparent and honest and just being yourself and not trying to come off as pompous and I know everything, you need to listen to everything I have to say, and not giving the client a chance to voice their opinion and not having them be heard. Because, again, going back to stereotypes, it’s- some lawyers just are very egotistical and full of themselves and just are the biggest bullshitters. And I can see right through it and it kills me. And I would not want anyone to ever have a lawyer like that, let alone represent them, ever. 

Chris [01:00:49] Those are strong closing words right there. Our time is up, my MMA fighting tattoo covered bodybuilding lawyer friend. I feel really lucky that we got to talk and I feel lucky knowing that if I’m ever in a fender bender out here on these New Jersey streets, that maybe you’re the person I’ll wind up calling. I would feel safe in your hands. I can tell you that. 

Caller [01:01:09] I appreciate that. I really do. 

Chris [01:01:17] Caller, thank you so much. And again, maybe someday we’ll wrestle. Or maybe someday I’ll need legal representation and I’ll hire you. Who knows? Thank you for everything you do. This show is produced by Anita Flores. It’s engineered by Jared O’Connell. Our theme song is by the almighty ShellShag. Go to ChrisGeth.com if you want to know more about me, including live ticket dates for my upcoming special taping and Beautiful Cononymous. Wherever you’re listening, there’s a button that says subscribe, favorite, follow, something like that. If you hit that button, it helps the show so much when you do. Find our latest merch at podswag.com, we’re talking shirts, posters, all kinds of stuff. Plus, if you want your episodes ad free, Stitcher Premium, that’s where you want to go. Stitcher dot com slash premium. Use the promo code “stories” for a one month free trial. And hey, if you like the show, tell friends about it, post online about it, bring it up at dinner parties. Word of mouth, that’s the best advertising there is. Thanks so much.