EP. 192 — Rick Glassman

 

Jameela Intro [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, a podcast against shame. I hope you’re well and I think you’re going to really find today’s chat so interesting. My guest is fascinating and an amazing communicator. And in today’s episode we touched on something that a lot of you have been asking me to touch upon, which is autism and neurodivergence. Now, my guest this week is Rick Glassman, who is an amazing actor, comedian and the podcast host of “Take Your Shoes Off,” which I highly recommend as the weirdest lesson ever. He’s incredibly entertaining, but this episode is so raw and so thoughtful. And what I loved about our conversation, we kind of just jump straight in talking about how his brain works and how he experiences the world via the lens of autism and what he has learned to change about the way that he lives to make himself more comfortable, but what he’s also learning about trying to make other people feel comfortable, but also how much he needs to go out of his way to extend himself to make other people comfortable. Is that our responsibility? What comes out of this chat is massively a sense of, first of all, understanding someone’s experience cause I think we both want to make clear in this episode that this is just one person’s experience and maybe things will resonate with you and maybe they won’t. Everyone’s different. We’re all individuals, and people with autism or neurodivergence are not a monolith. But one thing I think we can universally agree on from listening to this chat is that so many things that apply to people with autism around how we socially engage and move through this world also apply to people who don’t have neurodivergence. There are so many ways in which people deny themselves their true, authentic expression or getting what they want or what they need, or saying the full truth, or being their full selves, showing up with all the parts of themselves rather than what the world finds the most palatable. We discussed something called masking, which, when it comes to autism, is normally and Rick explains this better in this chat, but it’s kind of presenting the version of yourself that you think someone else would like you to be in spite of however it is you really feel. Now, if we’re all being honest, most people do that at some point, especially if you’ve been socialized as a woman. And so is there something that we could learn from the autistic community as to the fact that there is something to this extraordinary authenticity and way of looking at the world that actually most people resonate with? But society conditions us out of doing so. And is all of that healthy just to be considered, quote unquote, civilized? I think it’s fascinating. And I think he’s so cool for talking about a subject that very few people feel brave enough to discuss because they don’t want that to become the only thing everyone knows about them. Nobody should ever feel ashamed, but I think some people don’t want to be labeled. And he talks also about his own reticence and via the art that he makes and via his podcast and via chats like this, he is working to make other people feel less alone. He’s not telling anyone anything definitive about all people with autism. But what he’s doing is giving us an insight into his experience in the hopes of making others feel less alone in a way that he probably needed when he was young, in a way that I needed when I was young, in a way that all of us needed. So let me know what you think. Let me know if this resonates with you. Whether you have neurodivergence or know someone who is neurodivergent or not, maybe it resonates with you regardless. I would like to know. I think it gives a lot of food for thought and I’m excited for you to hear it, so I’m going to shut up now and let you just enjoy the excellent Rick Glassman.

 

Jameela [00:03:55] Rick Glassman, welcome to I Weigh. How are you?

 

Rick [00:03:58] I’m well, how are you?

 

Jameela [00:03:58] I’m good. It’s so nice to see you and to, I’ve met you before, but we’ve never had, like, a full, in-depth conversation. So this is this is new and it’s exciting.

 

Rick [00:04:08] It also feels like my coffee is about to kick in.

 

Jameela [00:04:12] Uh huh.

 

Rick [00:04:12] It hasn’t yet, but I feel, I know I had it.

 

Jameela [00:04:15] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:04:15] And I feel like maybe I’m feeling silly.

 

Jameela [00:04:19] Okay, good.

 

Rick [00:04:20] We’re on a podcast to talk about how like, how much our emotions weigh.

 

Jameela [00:04:24] Yeah, great. I feel very ready for that. I feel ready and I feel, I feel excited for it. Okay hahaha. Okay. So I wanted you to come here today because I think you are a really fascinating human being, a fascinating figure within our industry and someone who’s found a really enjoyable way to talk about the human spirit with the levity of humor. You know, there are a lot of people who can talk about the problems that they have and they can inject some humor into it. But very few people actually genuinely include vulnerability. And I feel like you not only give out vulnerability, but you encourage it from other people while still being able to have a lovely time.

 

Rick [00:05:01] Thank you very much. I have found that, I’m not speaking of myself, I’m speaking about comedy in particular, that honesty is a superpower.

 

Jameela [00:05:10] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:05:10] Like it’s not always the funniest or the best, but like when in doubt, like if you could just be honest, like, say what you’re feeling, then at least people get it, even if they don’t agree with it. Like they can empathize with you. They get to know you a little bit. So I have found validation since I was a kid and being honest because it felt rewarded. Like if I’m in touch with how I feel and I could express it, then I could connect with people. So vulnerability for me, I recognize a lot of people that vulnerable feels like, “Oh, you’re exposing a wound that could get hurt.” But to me, vulnerability feels like “wWhat? That’s the best place to be.” But I do remember, I’ve talked about this on my podcast before, which is a preface I always have to make because I feel like I’m lying If I tell a story that I’ve told before. I remember I was at Disneyland with my mom and her friend and her friend’s son, who’s my friend too. It’s just family, friends, two moms, two sons. Moms are the same age, sons are the same age. I don’t know how old I am, but I’m under ten. And I used to obsessively have to tell everything I was thinking all the time. And I remember there was a time where I went to the bathroom and my friend’s mom went to the bathroom at the same time. And when I went into the bathroom and I was pulling down my pants to go pee, it wasn’t a poop, you have to believe me. And I was picturing, I wonder what his mom’s doing to pee. And then I pictured her naked and I’m like, “Oh, no, I pictured somebody naked.” And I went and I told my mom I said, “Mom I have to tell you something.” She goes, “What?” I go, “I pictured, I pictured Cathy naked. And is that okay?” And my mom said, “First of all, yes, it’s okay that you pictured her naked. And also, I want you to be able to tell me anything you want. Thank you so much for being scared and feeling like you could come and talk to me.

 

Jameela [00:06:59] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:06:59] But also, I want you to know that you’re allowed to have any thoughts you want, and you don’t ever have to share them with somebody. And if you want to share them with me, feel safe, and you can. But you don’t have to. It’s okay to have those things.” And that was a big thing for me, because I, it was I’m allowed to have any thoughts I want. I don’t have to share them. But there’s still that thing in me where it’s like, am I supposed to share this?

 

Jameela [00:07:22] Mhm. Well, to this very day?

 

Rick [00:07:23] It’s, I mean, then it was like a real like, I need to weigh the pros and cons.

 

Jameela [00:07:27] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:07:27] Now, it’s just like an emotional connection that I’m able to, like, parent myself, to not have to share every time I have to go poop. Incidentally, I just did. But, like, but for real, like, that’s a thing. Like, I’ll be sitting there, I have to poop, and then I have to stop myself from saying “Everybody, I have to poop.” Nobody cares. It’s nobody’s business.

 

Jameela [00:07:47] Mhm. Mhm.

 

Rick [00:07:48] And that’s what I found, that, like, doing it, as I’m sure most comedians will tell you some version of this, but like, finding a way of doing it in a in a bit is it’s going to be okay as long as you get a laugh.

 

Jameela [00:08:00] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:08:02] So the validation of honesty came from like, I’ll tell the truth, but I’m going to do it playfully. And then something that I didn’t discover until, like I was in my thirties, which something I’ve always heard, but I didn’t, I thought they were, everyone was wrong, which was nobody knows if I’m joking or serious. And another thing I’ve said often on my podcast is I never thought that jokes  and sincerity are mutually exclusive.

 

Jameela [00:08:24] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:08:25] I’m telling, everything I’m telling you is real. And I’m doing it in a, in a way that I feel safe. And I know that you’re not a comedian and but you’re still an entertainer, which congratulations. I don’t understand how that’s a thing. Like, how could people be entertaining if they’re not funny? I know that’s not the case. I know that’s.

 

Jameela [00:08:47] Is that your way of telling me that you don’t think I’m funny?

 

Rick [00:08:49] Not at all.

 

Jameela [00:08:50] Cause that’s okay.

 

Rick [00:08:50] No, no, I’m being, I’m being serious. I really like, I with, it also by funny, I don’t even mean it actually is funny. Let me change funny with playfulness. Without that, I don’t know how to do this. If you’re not playing. I’m not, I don’t know what to do.

 

Jameela [00:09:09] Yeah. I think that’s fine. That’s just your way of communicating. Some people I remember talking to, I was, you know, I used to be an interviewer for musicians, and Chris Martin once told me Chris Martin of Coldplay once told me that, you know, as a kid, he didn’t know how to communicate his feelings. And the only way he knew how to communicate all of his feelings was via song.

 

Rick [00:09:30] Jokes.

 

Jameela [00:09:32] And so we all have our own different ways. Some people are hyper-hyper-hyper-serious. I think I sort of exist somewhere floating between the two. But I think the way in which I choose to entertain is just via authenticity. So whatever it is that I’m feeling in its rawest form, I give that and hopefully the part of that that’s, I don’t know if I’m, I wouldn’t necessarily say I’m trying to be entertaining, but I think the part of that that some people find engaging is the fact that they relate to that. And so some people relate to me at different times, different moods. It really just depends. But I’m just here being consistently my inconsistent self, and people can just kind of opt in and out as to whether or not they resonate. And so that’s what I think some people find, I guess, engaging more so than entertaining.

 

Rick [00:10:17] That’s the, the idea that you don’t have to be funny is the is like the realization I made in my thirties, which, how exhausting it was for people and me. So I get, that’s where I, that’s where I think we started with this, which is how like honesty is a bit of a superpower where if you’re, if you’re at least being honest, you don’t have to do bits. But as a kid, that’s where I felt comfortable being honest.

 

Jameela [00:10:42] Mhm. Well, I think it’s one of the, it’s still one of the most effective ways, to be honest. It’s the spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down. And every time I tried to say something.

 

Rick [00:10:48] Is that Coldplay?

 

Jameela [00:10:50] Yes, it is. And it’s something that I’ve found, every time I try and make a very serious point, I try to inject some sort of tongue in cheek with everything serious I talk about. So part of this honesty and part of your kind of learning curve over the last couple of years, I want to be mindful of the fact that I know that you do not ever want to be the spokesperson for autism. What was that quote? I think it’s something you’ve you’ve said a few times before that if you’ve met one person with autism, you’ve met one person with autism.

 

Rick [00:11:21] Yeah, that’s a Dr. Stephen Shore.

 

Jameela [00:11:22] It’s an amazing, amazing quote.

 

Rick [00:11:24] Yeah. People have an idea of what autism is based on they’re either personal experience with people in their lives, which is usually more, a broader experience than those that have just seen “Rainman” or some type of savant or virtuoso, like a lot of people look at it as people that are, you know, you either want to take to Vegas with you or people that are nonverbal. And it exists in a broader sense than that. And I was diagnosed with autism six years ago, and at first I was very, very excited because it connected a lot of patterns that were seemingly unrelated. And as I spoke on it more, I noticed some people in my life would be like, “Yeah, obviously.” And then some people are like, “You don’t have autism.” When I started talking about it on stage is when that bothered me. Bothered me like, a lot because, well, what bothered me was my reaction to feeling the need to explain or sell something to people.

 

Jameela [00:12:23] Mm.

 

Rick [00:12:23] I found that with the exception of mothers of people with autism who would come up to me and loved what I would talk about, which is a very niche crowd.

 

Jameela [00:12:30] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:12:31] Which I thought about doing a special called “Killing Two Mothers with Autistic Kids.” But other than that, people would like say, “Oh, but autism is this or this or this.” And like, I was in a position that I put myself in by validating it. But like, “Well, no, you don’t understand. Because when I was a kid or this or this” and like, I’m like selling them to believe something that had nothing to do with them that offered me value because I was able to learn new tools and kind of better understand the way I’m wired. So I stopped talking about it for a very long time until I ended up getting on a TV show called “As We See It,” which is, it’s an Amazon Prime show I’m very proud of. We did one season, but then I was on a show with a whole bunch of people with autism, people behind the camera, people on camera, people in the writers room. And I just got more comfortable with the idea of like, “Oh, everybody is their own version of this.” So I do talk about it again. But by talking about it, you kind of put yourself in a position where you are like speaking for autism. And I am only speaking from my personal experiences with it.

 

Jameela [00:13:32] And that’s all I really would love to hear from you, and I just wanted to kind of approach it gently to make sure that you feel comfortable today talking about it, because I’m interested in your journey with it, especially as someone who was diagnosed later in life. I think that we’re now seeing a sort of boom of people finding out later in life that they have some form of neurodivergence and it has in each individual case, a different, but I think quite extraordinary impact on the way they frame their mental health or their lens of the world. And it’s your personal lens shift that I’m interested in, provided you feel comfortable to talk about it.

 

Rick [00:14:09] I do. I want to speak to the voice of of of what kept me from talking about it in the past to, I guess, to acknowledge their perspective, which is people I know have a negative take on people who openly discuss their neurodivergence if they don’t suffer from things that are very visible to them.

 

Jameela [00:14:34] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:14:34] It would be the equivalent of somebody who has a boot on their foot and has crutches parking in a wheelchair spot and like, “No, but they they still could walk.” And like that mentality is only- this is my hypothesis, but it only is that way. And even in my analogy, if it’s looked at as a disability to say “You don’t have it as bad as this person,” as if there’s bad and good and there absolutely is. I’m not saying that some of these obstacles and challenges aren’t, they wouldn’t be better off if those were if these challenges were easier for them. But like, there’s this kind of human nature. And I say this just from a sample of my own childhood or remembering when people got here. I remember there was somebody in school who was in a cast and he got so much attention from it. And then there was somebody who was like, “Who cares? I broke my arm.” He, I broke my arm last summer. Like, like it was a competition.

 

Jameela [00:15:26] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:15:27] I also acknowledge that some people do try and sell it as an identity in order to try and get sympathy or whatever it might be. But because of the show as we see it, because of some of the stuff I talk about on my podcast, I’ve gotten so many emails and met so many people who not only do they not know much about autism, they have since been diagnosed, and it helped them learn not just how to better communicate with other people, but how to help them better communicate with them. I do go back and forth with like I want to be able to talk about my experiences without being fearful that I am saying things as an excuse for something. I had a doctor like a general practitioner doctor. He was my doctor for years, and I ask a lot of questions, always have. I was getting shoulder surgery and then I met with him just like, “Hey, I’m getting surgery, I want to tell you, so let’s just do a checkup.” I started asking them some questions about the shoulder, and he was just like, oof, and he just breathed out. And I could tell something was wrong, and I was like, “It seems like you’re upset that I’m in here.” And he goes, “I’ll be honest with you, Rick. Every time I see your name is on the door, I take a deep breath.” And this is a doctor, you know. And by the way, I’m not doing bits. I’m just asking questions. I didn’t like that. I didn’t like that. It made me feel bad. I also didn’t like that then it made me like, not trust my doctor as much. I still ended up going there for over a year because.

 

Jameela [00:16:49] Wait, sorry. Did he explain why he said that?

 

Rick [00:16:51] He said, “I don’t have enough time to answer all your questions.” And I said, “You could defer some of them. But you know, I’m looking for a peace of mind.”

 

Jameela [00:16:57] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:16:59] Incidentally, I got diagnosed with autism a few months later.

 

Jameela [00:17:02] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:17:02] And the next time I went in there, I told him.

 

Jameela [00:17:05] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:17:06] And he goes, “That makes so much sense.” And he was so nice to me. He starts talking about the Dodgers. I don’t know anything about the Dodgers, but he wanted to, like, you know

 

Jameela [00:17:15] Connect.

 

Rick [00:17:16] And he was nice to me, and I still went there for probably about a year or so, but I never I never forgot that. But the observation was he was okay with me if he understood why I was curious, or at least he thought he understood why I was curious. “Oh, he has autism. I’ll be nicer.” So with that I noticed 1) both a shorthand which I now tell all doctors that I go to. If I go to a doctor, I tell them beforehand because I’m going to ask a lot of questions. And I’ll be honest, I don’t like this, but it’s efficient. I do it. I do it as an excuse. I say, “Hey, listen, I want you to know this.” Autism is a shorthand for this doctor to understand my obsessions and curiosities. And by the way, there are people with obsessions and curiosities that aren’t autistic. There are people with autism who don’t obsess over those things.

 

Jameela [00:18:02] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:18:02] But just, I’m cast in this doctor’s mind as not somebody who’s trying to take advantage of their time, but “Oh, he has autism.” And it feels dirty. It feels like a dirty thing to me.

 

Jameela [00:18:21] It’s not my place to qualify whether or not that’s an excuse or not, but I, it really depends on whether or not you allow the diagnosis to to define you. And then you go, “Well, that’s just how I am.” Or did you take the diagnosis and go, “Oh, okay, so my brain works in this sort of way and it’s different to how some other people’s brains work. And this is something that people find easier to deal with rather than not.” But do you try to find some sort of a social lubricant or are you just kind of like, “Well, this is, I’m neurodivergent and so I’m just going to be how I am.”

 

Rick [00:18:54] It’s not the latter. So before my diagnosis and this is a bit hyperbolic, but just, just, you know, relatively versus after, I wasn’t aware of how I was being received. It wasn’t that I didn’t care. It was that.

 

Jameela [00:19:07] You didn’t know.

 

Rick [00:19:08] I didn’t know. And the best way I could explain it is, is like whatever I was thinking and whatever I know, so do you.

 

Jameela [00:19:19] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:19:19] And I think that’s a bit in human nature. I was talking to a friend of mine last night about this with stuff that’s happening in the world, Israel, Palestine, college campuses where people are being interviewed about the genocide of Jews and whether or not that’s free speech and the other way around and all of these things and how people are scared of of of what they’re allowed to say, what they’re not. And how are some people not seeing the humanity in it, not just the teams of it. And what it is is that for better and for worse, I’m thinking stuff that you’re not and that they’re not. And if I’m thinking something that this person isn’t or doesn’t comprehend, that doesn’t, it’s not, “Oh, they don’t get it.” It takes a lot of time before you decide, “Oh, they just don’t get it.” It’s more, “How do they not get it? How are they not seeing what I’m seeing for right or wrong? How are they not seeing it to not understand that they think differently?” If I were to give you directions to get to some place, you know San Francisco, and I tell you the fastest way and you want to go a slower way, that doesn’t, that’s not possible. But what I didn’t consider was maybe you wanted the scenic route and it added two hours. There was no scenic route. That doesn’t make sense. I never thought about that. I never knew how I was making people feel. Even if they told me. I thought they were joking or whatever it was, it was hard to understand. So when I found out that I make people uncomfortable, I do too many jokes or I’m being awkward and they don’t get it. When I found that out and I started to better understand it with my diagnosis, I got into a very, I was very depressed and I felt in a way that even though I’m 30 something, I’m starting over. I have no idea how people think about me. I do care. When someone would check their watch, I would ask, “Do you want to know the time or is this, or we, you can leave? I’m so sorry.” I was saying sorry preemptively all the time because I didn’t, I still didn’t know when I was crossing a line, but I finally knew a line existed, and I cared so much about how other people felt. And not in a generous way. Not in a selfish way, necessarily, but just because, like, I want to be liked. I want you to like me. I want you to think I’m nice. I want you to at least

 

Jameela [00:21:35] I don’t like you. I’m sorry.

 

Rick [00:21:36] I get the joke and I’m okay with it. But, but then I realized there’s nothing I could do to make you like me. I can’t control it. I can’t. Whether or not, like right now, whether or not you like me or not, whether or not that was a joke or not, I’ll never know. I’ll never know. So I might as well just be this thing that I feel is my best version. That being said, I’ve come out the other end. I think I’ve come out the other end where I very, very much care what people think. “Oh, who cares what they think? Who cares if they think you’re funny? Blah, blah, blah.” I care so much and it matters. It’s, it just isn’t a priority to me. Like your opinion of me isn’t going to dictate my decision unless I agree with your opinion of me. But I care. So I think when people say, like, I don’t care what people think, I think there’s a line of bravery to that, that I get the sentiment, but I will never believe that. And I also think that’s not a healthy thing because I just think that, like, if you don’t care what people think, then you are either so unaware or so uninvested in your relationships. I care very, very much about what people think.

 

Jameela [00:22:54] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:22:54] I just don’t know if what they think about me, positive or negative, is right. So when I go on stage and if I get laughs and I don’t feel funny, I think they’re wrong.

 

Jameela [00:23:04] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:23:05] If I go on stage and I think I’m funny and they’re not laughing, I just think I, I didn’t connect, and that’s on me. But I’m funny.

 

Jameela [00:23:12] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:23:13] I’m now forgetting what the, what, what, what the thing was.

 

Jameela [00:23:17] That’s okay. I do, I do want to counter that a little bit from my own personal perspective, which is that my, I used to feel so concerned with what other people felt and thought that I prioritized that over my own needs and happiness. Right.

 

Rick [00:23:29] Right.

 

Jameela [00:23:30] Now, what I’ve realized is that, and this is just for me personally, is that I don’t invest very much in what all other people think. The people that I care deeply for, or if, you know, I have a relationship with, I care about everything they feel about the world, about themselves, about their lives, about how I treat them, etc. I really, really care about what some people think, but or feel. But I think where I’m at is that I no longer allow myself to be dictated by other people’s opinions because I have certain opinions about other people and that doesn’t have to impact them whatsoever. There’s plenty of people who I either dislike or disagree with or think are wrong, etc. and that has no negative impact on their life. And so I’ve chosen not to let it negatively impact me if other people feel a certain way about me. What I do know, what I feel very conscious of and what I feel very sensitive about, is that I want to make sure that I’m never hurting anyone. I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable. I take absolutely no pleasure in any of that, so I never want to be the shit part of anyone’s day, not even for a moment. But I have, I have genuinely grown to lose an appetite for impressing or for being liked by or approved by strangers because they just don’t know me. Anyone who knows me, I care. If you don’t know me, it’s so impossible for you to have any kind of realistic opinion of me, given that we don’t know one another. And so that’s where whenever I’m like, I don’t really care what people think. I don’t mean all people. I just mean people who don’t know me, that’s all.

 

Rick [00:25:10] So this feels very indulgent, but we’re podcasting, it’s the two of us, and I like these conversations, so I want to, I want to, I want to come back at you with the thing about how you don’t want to make people uncomfortable, but

 

Jameela [00:25:20] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:25:22] As much as I care what people think because I want them to to like me, because of course I want them to like me. I also accept I can’t control it, so I want you to like me. But it is what it is. Same goes with the uncomfortable thing. It goes the other way. If I, this idea of me making somebody uncomfortable, I. There are examples. If I, if I push you, if I fart on you, if I, you know, say something that triggers you, I mean that I knew would trigger you, that’s one thing. But like making people uncomfortable, that’s not my responsibility to not do that.

 

Jameela [00:25:55] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:25:56] My mom, I mean, it’s Eleanor Roosevelt, but my mom would quote Eleanor Roosevelt all the time. All the time. It’s crazy.

 

Jameela [00:26:01]  I think let’s credit your mum for this.

 

Rick [00:26:04] Yeah. It’s like when, when in The Cffice, when he goes, “You miss all the shots you don’t take -Wayne Gretzky – Michael Scott.” Like Michael Scott was quoting Wayne Gretzky. But nobody can make you feel inferior without your own consent. And like, if somebody, even the language of “You made me uncomfortable,” I get what the shorthand is. But what they’re saying is they’re uncomfortable. I didn’t make you uncomfortable.

 

Jameela [00:26:27] It’s like “I’m not intimidating you. You are intimidated.”

 

Rick [00:26:31] Correct.

 

Jameela [00:26:31] Right.

 

Rick [00:26:32] I do not and will not take responsibility for other people’s projections and insecurities. If, however, they have communicated them to me and there is a need or want for them to help me make them feel safe, that’s a different story. But like in superficial interactions, whether it’s me on stage and or meeting somebody and or somebody like you, who I know a little bit, but I don’t know your triggers and these things.

 

Jameela [00:26:56] Just to be clear, I didn’t mean make sure I’m not making people uncomfortable in ways I could, didn’t know they could feel uncomfortable because people are very individually sensitive.

 

Rick [00:27:04] What about your posts?

 

Jameela [00:27:04]  I just mean about

 

Rick [00:27:06] What about your posts that you get backlash on but it’s still something that you very much believe in and people are uncomfortable?

 

Jameela [00:27:11] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:27:12] Do you find a way to navigate? “Listen, let me explain what I meant better.”

 

Jameela [00:27:16] So, yes, yes, I’ve been learning over the last couple of years that there are ways that I can speak that make people feel less defensive.

 

Rick [00:27:24] Right.

 

Jameela [00:27:24] I have been going on and I have been constantly, constantly working on ways to be more palatable, ways to engage in nonviolent communication because I realized that when I just used to say things as plainly as I felt them or I thought them, all I did was, you know, I got a lot of attention, I got a lot of applause, but I also put a lot of people’s backs up. And they were the very people I most wanted to be able to reach out across to because they were the people in power who were causing the other people pain. And instead, I just isolated myself from them. I alienated them. And I felt very, very foolish once I understood that. And so now I have been really trying to work on my tone and registering that I don’t learn when I’m being shouted at or shamed or, you know, belittled in any way because my brain neurologically goes into fight or flight. My, the blood rushes from my brain to my muscles when I feel like I’m being attacked, then I’m no longer able to comprehend, remember or engage and learn. And so if that’s how I feel, then how can I try to explain something to someone else about my experience with experienced people like me, or with the experience of a group when I’m making them feel defensive. I should, if I learn best with grace and tolerance, then that’s what I should be extending. So I am getting less and less and less backlash, even though I’m speaking about the same things, than I’ve ever had before because I have learned via feedback, via global feedback

 

Rick [00:28:51] Bragging.

 

Jameela [00:28:51]  That I- yeah, yeah. Globally piled on, no big deal. But yeah, that’s, it’s like a main goal in my life now is to learn how to communicate about uncomfortable subjects in a way that doesn’t make people feel uncomfortable.

 

Rick [00:29:08] And that is what I think of as the craft of communication, which is, in order to do that, you have to care about what other people think, but not prioritize it to the point where you don’t find a way to say what you want.

 

Jameela [00:29:19] Yes!

 

Rick [00:29:19] And that is a great example of why I don’t want to. Not that this is a right decision, just mine. Open up to a director of “Hey, I need to be spoken to this way because of autism,” because I am aware that when you tell somebody that, whatever my intention may be, it is an excuse. And I don’t mean an excuse as an excusing so it’s okay in a bad way. The literal excuse here is the reason why, and I don’t know that it’s because of autism. I don’t know that I need to be spoken this way because of autism. I know that if I say autism, it’ll be a shorthand and the doctor will be nicer to me. But that’s, that’s, it wasn’t my fault that the doctor didn’t know I had autism. If I told him, he would have been, “Oh, you should have told me earlier. I would’ve.” No, that’s not my responsibility. So I don’t want to tell a director, “I need to be spoken to because of this.” Because also then what happens is the next person he meets that has autism and thinks that that’s what it means. Also, autism isn’t the reason I am what I am. Autism is just, it’s just a category that has a lot of character traits that that you could put it in, so it’s more palatable for other people to understand. And that serves a great, that’s great when educating people. But I don’t want to go on a set and educate you on autism. I also believe that my neurotypical friends would also benefit from more direct communication. And we, we, people, at least the communities that I’ve been involved with, have subscribed to forms of communication that they never voted for and that they only do because they were taught. I’m a Jewish Democrat because my parents were. I don’t care. I mean, that’s not true. I care about some things. But like if, if, people were born without religion and political affiliations, most people probably wouldn’t choose one. I don’t know anything, and I say that from the most aware space. I don’t know anything. I just know what team I grew up with. And that goes in social communications with people saying, “How are you doing? How’s your family?” Shaking hands, making eye contact, having certain types of posture, opening the car door for somebody, bringing a bottle of wine when you visit their house, all of these things that you’re supposed to do, people, I don’t think, care enough.

 

Jameela [00:31:41] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:31:42] I’m going to come back to this in a second. I have a- When Vine came out

 

Jameela [00:31:45] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:31:46] You remember Vine, right? That’s not that long ago. Six second comedy, and that’s also when people started going viral, it kind of defined a new a new form of comedy, both of short-short form, and a lot of people got this huge stage before they developed their craft.

 

Jameela [00:32:03] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:32:03] And it kind of conditioned what comedy is. Now I’m being biased because I’m in comedy, but I think short form content like that has conditioned younger generations what funny is, and now funny is not what, it’s not earned to me enough. Like funny, by funny, it’s not even funny it’s just entertainment. Just like people opening boxes and America’s Funniest Videos, being people falling down stairs I guess could be funny if the person isn’t hurt. I don’t know. But there isn’t a craft that people had to develop to get this stage.

 

Jameela [00:32:37] Mm hmm.

 

Rick [00:32:38] There’s good versions of this, too, and what it’s done, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But because they haven’t had to develop that craft, it doesn’t exist. I think that happens in social interactions. I think if more people were very direct, they didn’t ask things they weren’t interested in, they told their opinions, has nothing to do with autism. I think people would be conditioned to be more comfortable showing up authentically. And that’s not autism. I know that my friends without autism are very direct with me.

 

Jameela [00:33:05] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:33:05] That’s just because I’ve asked them to be.

 

Jameela [00:33:07] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:33:07] Anyway.

 

Jameela [00:33:08] I completely agree with you. I think about this all the time. I also think about it, you know, when we talk about masking, right? Masking is, I guess, how would you how would you describe masking?

 

Rick [00:33:20] Putting on an energy or a personality or a face that you feel that other people, to make other people more comfortable with you?

 

Jameela [00:33:31] Mhm. Now, don’t you feel, I feel, do you also feel that everyone is doing that to some extent?

 

Rick [00:33:37] Yes.

 

Jameela [00:33:37] It’s something that we identify with.

 

Rick [00:33:38] Most People.

 

Jameela [00:33:39] Only, yeah, sorry, most people. There are, we associate it heavily with autism, but it’s something that I find almost everyone that I know, you know, especially being in this industry, does. Like we put on a more palatable and quote unquote, civilized persona in order to be accepted because we have a tribal fear, like an anthropological fear of being ousted from the tribe, right? So we do whatever. You see a lot of it on social media with the way that people talk about social politics or social justice. They, they, they’re very tribal in their statements, their sentiments, their affiliations. And then you meet those people maybe offline, and suddenly they have a different take versus, you know, who they project themselves as.

 

Rick [00:34:22] As an authority for women, I could speak that women, a lot of women feel the need to do that.

 

Jameela [00:34:27] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:34:27] A lot of women, like “I need to show up in a way that is non-threatening and or sexualized and or not sexualized and or whatever it is that I feel that I’m supposed to be.” So it’s definitely not an autism thing.

 

Jameela [00:34:38] No. Hundred percent. And the reason the autism is harder to diagnose or it’s less diagnosed in women until later in life is because partially, because women are so hyper-socialized excessively more so than other genders to be, yeah, to be palatable. So kids, so little girls growing up or anyone socialized as female, they are all growing up with some sort of a mask of, you know, smile and, you know, be pleasant, etc. just as you were kind of referring to as a wonderful authority on women.

 

Rick [00:35:10] Mhm, thank you.

 

Jameela [00:35:10] But I, but it is something that I feel like the conversation about neurodivergence and autism and masking and all of that like there’s, we should not look at that as like a closed subject that like that’s just for autistic people over there. This is a subject that I think opens Pandora’s box of our society at large as to all the conversations that we aren’t having, as to all the like straightforward conversations that would make the world move much faster, like we aren’t telling each other the full truth and we are, we are now engaging in a culture because of social media that means that it’s this really strange combination where social media encourages you to be your most raw oversharing self. You have to give everything of your personal life, but at the same time it has to be curated somewhat to be palatable to absolutely everybody.

 

Rick [00:36:01] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:36:01] And so it’s this clusterfuck that I’m so glad that I didn’t form my brain as a teenager in because this is just, it’s just so overwhelming. And I think this conversation about masking and autism is one that everyone can take from of, “Am I being my most genuine self? Is this how I feel today? Would my life be easier if I could engage in straightforward conversations and ask others to engage straightforwardly with?”

 

Rick [00:36:26] Yes, the answer will always be yes, no matter who you are. And if the reason it’s no is because of the people that don’t allow that, then the issue is that you need to change your circle.

 

Jameela [00:36:33] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:36:34] When people are masking, there’s a consciousness to it, oftentimes. I’m doing this because ____. Maybe you don’t check in with yourself, but if you did, the answer wouldn’t necessarily be buried so deep, “Oh, I want these people to think this version of me. And that’s my choice.” When you don’t know how the other person’s receiving, when you go in and you smile, you’re aware that you will be more liked if you’re smiling or you’ll be more whatever, if you are smiling more. But there are, speaking for myself, I have no idea. So I’m not doing what I’ve learned works because I’ve been validated in it. I’m doing what I have seen other people do, and I’m just gambling.

 

Jameela [00:37:15] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:37:16] “Okay, I think I’m supposed to do this.” It’s not as conscious, it’s not as strategic. There are too, there are so many variables. Not being able to pick up, pick up on social cues is a big difference, is a big difference. Like I talk about this in my act now, but like right now your head is to the side and you’re making good eye contact. Some people when they squint and they lean forward. I know that’s showing that you’re interested, but I also know, are you just trying to show me that you’re interested? I don’t know if you are. There’s so much to calculate. And it gets so exhausting.

 

Jameela [00:37:50] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:37:50] It gets so exhausting. And then you ask people, “Were you really interested in this?” I don’t know if they even know their feelings enough, let alone if they’ll tell me the truth.

 

Jameela [00:37:58] The reason I was squinting and looking at you pleasantly is because I was having a memory of the last time I saw you perform live. And to this point, you said something that made me laugh a lot, and I remembered, and it made a lot of my friends who are also autistic feel very seen where you were talking about the kind of social contract, and you know, when you meet someone, you have to be like, “Hi, hi, nice to meet you. How are you?” I’m not going to try and do your bit to you cause otherwise I’m going to-

 

Rick [00:38:22] You have to be really, “Oh!” you’re really like, “Oh, that’s awesome! Hi!”

 

Jameela [00:38:26] Yeah, and “I live here and oh, you live there. That’s so interesting!” Whereas really all you want to say is

 

Rick [00:38:31] “Hi.”

 

Jameela [00:38:31] “Hi.” Oh, I think it was, what you said onstage, it’s like, it’s like someone’s like, “Hi, my name is Mike.” “Okay.”

 

Rick [00:38:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or when people say, “How you doing?” Like, the most honest, most of the time. The most honest thing is “I don’t want to tell you.”

 

Jameela [00:38:43] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:38:44] It doesn’t matter.

 

Jameela [00:38:45] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:38:45] I don’t want to tell you.

 

Jameela [00:38:46] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:38:46] But that’s the craft, though, that’s the craft of like, how could you show up authentically without negating other people’s forms of communication? And that’s where I, that’s where the funny, at least for my version of it comes from like, if you can make a joke out of it, then you get to tell somebody the truth without them feeling attacked.

 

Jameela [00:39:04] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:39:04] “Oh, he’s being playful.” But then it’s like, “Well, how do they know that I’m also being serious?” And I don’t know if this is true, but my therapist once told me in, out of this context, but we project onto other people. We don’t really know somebody. I mean, of course this is arbitrary, but it takes two years to know somebody. Like you don’t really know somebody until you’ve known them for two years. I guess it depends on how often you see them day to day.

 

Jameela [00:39:26] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:39:26] But like something that I have trouble accepting because I like, I want to find the cheat, which I haven’t yet, but like, I want to just like meet somebody and just say, like, “Let’s just stare at each other for 5 seconds.” Okay? You get it, right? You know everything I’m saying. You understand me? All right? Do it. But just trust me. Just believe me.

 

Jameela [00:39:47] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:39:47] And then same, but people have their own traumas with trust. And if people are being authentic and what people’s wants are and also some people are trying to take advantage of certain situations and it’s just so hard to trust people and to know what their intentions are. I don’t believe that most people know their own intentions. I don’t think that many people ask themselves, “Why did I do this?” And it becomes so exhausting that the only thing, that’s why it’s like, if I made you uncomfortable, I don’t know if that’s my fault. If I made you laugh. May I be a little gratuitous for a moment?

 

Jameela [00:40:19] Yes.

 

Rick [00:40:20] I used to do a bit. It’s a sexual bit.

 

Jameela [00:40:22] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:40:23] Which I might still do some version of, but like. The small version, the inspiration is if you’re with a woman and she has an orgasm.

 

Jameela [00:40:36] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:40:36] I didn’t give that to you. Like the way your body works, you obviously just come from that kind of stuff. I’m just happy to be there. I’m glad that I could help. But that’s the way your body works. And at the same time, if you didn’t, you maybe you don’t come pentratively. Like, I don’t know. So, like, it’s not my fault that you did or you didn’t. Now, that’s a very crazy version, obviously. You know, do some some cunt, some cool moves or whatever, I don’t know. But, like

 

Jameela [00:41:03] Did you just say do some cunt?

 

Rick [00:41:03] I think I did.

 

Jameela [00:41:04] Okay, hahahhaha.

 

Rick [00:41:04] I think I did. Yeah, I did.

 

Jameela [00:41:08] Did you mean cunnilingus?

 

Rick [00:41:09] Well I know I did say that. I think that that was a slip. A clit. But what I’m saying is. What I’m saying is, if I make you come or if you don’t come, only so much of that as my responsibility.

 

Jameela [00:41:23] I think we’re just going to clip that moment.

 

Rick [00:41:25] Clip that moment.

 

Jameela [00:41:26] And tell people that this was us discussing sex that we’ve had. Hahaha!

 

Rick [00:41:31] Yeah. Did I make you come? Because if I did, I’m glad, but that’s not because of me. But in real life, too, like, if I made you happy or if I upset you, only some of that is on me.

 

Jameela [00:41:42] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:41:43] So I’m just happy to be having sex.

 

Jameela [00:41:46] And we can all just do our best. Let’s do our best to try to, you know, learn about someone else’s needs and within reason, try to meet them halfish way, some percentage of the way.

 

Rick [00:41:56] And in this analogy in real life, if socially you’re uncomfortable in certain situations, maybe you need to be carrying around a vibrator. Okay, because it’s not only my job to pleasure you.

 

Jameela [00:42:09] Right.

 

Rick [00:42:10] Figure out your body, man.

 

Jameela [00:42:12] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:42:13] So I think before you get into social conversations with people and expect to make friends and get close, you have to learn. You know, they say you have to learn how to touch yourself before you get to touch somebody else. You have to learn how to love yourself before you could love somebody else. My name’s Rick Glassman, and sometimes I’ll make you come and sometimes I won’t. Thanks for having me. I don’t know if we’re done, but I thought that was.

 

Jameela [00:42:32] We’re not done. Um okay.

 

Rick [00:42:34] Commercial ad break there?

 

Jameela [00:42:43] What was your childhood like? Were you popular or lonely?

 

Rick [00:42:47] I, uh, I was never bullied.

 

Jameela [00:42:51] Mhm. Big brag, big fucking brag.

 

Rick [00:42:53] I was never bullied globally.

 

Jameela [00:42:56] I’ve been both bullied interpersonally and globally.

 

Rick [00:42:59] Whatever. You’re a woman, it’s easy to get bullied as a woman for bragging. That’s not true. I was bullied one summer at a summer camp, but I didn’t grow up, and my brother, but like in school, in most social, I wasn’t, I didn’t grow up feeling bullied. I didn’t feel unincluded.

 

Jameela [00:43:15] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:43:15] I have a bit where I talk about I didn’t know I didn’t have friends until I was diagnosed with autism. I just thought everybody was busy all the time. Like people made excuses, “I can’t, I can’t this, I can’t that. Oh, sorry. We only have so much room.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” I just believed everybody. Everyone was nice to me, but I didn’t really have friends. I had some friends with some weird kids. And my mom would always say to me how nice I am. My mom would say it’s so nice, like these people aren’t really included and you’re so nice to them. And, and I thought like, “Yeah, I’m a good guy.” And I didn’t realize, “Oh, I’m also one of those.” I just thought like, “Look at me playing with, playing with-” I almost said his name and I shouldn’t because I think that’s me. But I remember one kid in particular who would microwave s’mores all the time because his mom didn’t want him to be near fire. But like, look at me. Look how nice I am microwaving s’mores with this weirdo. I’m one of them. And I had no idea. So, no, I neither had friends or popularity, nor did I feel. That’s a luxury of the lack of awareness I had as a kid. I just thought, my mom appauled a bowel movement of mine. My mom would ask me to play the piano for people and, “Oh, you’re so great.” I thought I was the best.

 

Jameela [00:44:22] Right.

 

Rick [00:44:23] You know? And

 

Jameela [00:44:23] I’m very happy for you.

 

Rick [00:44:26] Same.

 

Jameela [00:44:27] Yeah. That’s incredible. That’s really fucking amazing to have that kind of support.

 

Rick [00:44:30] Because it’s just a decision.

 

Jameela [00:44:32] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:44:32] And somebody else has to make it for you when you were a kid until you could do it yourself.

 

Jameela [00:44:35] So how about now? Are people still fobbing you off and saying they’re busy, or do you feel like you are less isolated, like post-diagnosis, what’s your social life like now?

 

Rick [00:44:45] I have my friends, I have my friends/acquaintances. Comedy community is is, is is like a fraternity in the best way.

 

Jameela [00:44:56] Has there been a shift post diagnosis? Like, have you noticed that because people may be able to understand you better, do you feel like your behavior has changed?

 

Rick [00:45:05] Yeah, I’ve noticed and I’ve been told, or more specifically, I have investigated and found out that I would cross people’s boundaries. I was on a TV show on NBC called Undateable.

 

Jameela [00:45:16] I went and saw it live.

 

Rick [00:45:18] I think you told me that, but I forgot why?

 

Jameela [00:45:20] Because I’m friends with David Fynn.

 

Rick [00:45:21] Oh, yes, yes. David is one of the people who even told me what what I’m telling you, which is I didn’t realize I was stepping on people’s toes with some of the bits I was doing or during rehearsal. I used to always wear headphones. It was a safety thing. Just you could always, I’m always a button away from not having to listen to certain noises or being able to listen to something that’s calming. And I would have headphones in all the time. I wasn’t always listening to them. Like right now I have headphones on, and you understand it. but imagine if we were outside and these were on, you would maybe be a little like, “Why is he wearing headphones?”

 

Jameela [00:45:53] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:45:54] That’s a very mild example. But there were things that I was doing or not doing that I guess maybe made people feel I didn’t want to be there or made them feel disrespected or I’m doing too many jokes. I take responsibility for not making my friends come there. But at the same time, but at the same time, nobody was telling me to play with their clit.

 

Jameela [00:46:13] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:46:13] Nobody was telling me anything.

 

Jameela [00:46:15] Yes.

 

[00:46:16] And I have now, 1) learned some of the things not to do. I’ve also learned, like I said, to tell a director, “Hey, if you want the most efficient out of me in the easiest way, this is, let me give you some tools.” So post-diagnosis, I’ve, I believe I’ve been allowing people the space to for them to feel most comfortable. But at the same time it’s because I ask them what their needs are.

 

Jameela [00:46:46] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:46:47] Back to this idea of conditioning people to be more direct, and

 

Jameela [00:46:51] It’s a bit like the BDSM community. That’s what you’re like. You’re a bit like the BDSM community.

 

Rick [00:46:57] I understand that’s a sexual thing, but I don’t know enough about them. Could you help me with the analogy?

 

Jameela [00:47:01] So something I really like about what I’ve learned about the BDSM community is that it’s all consent based, right? And it’s all about getting as much information about each other as possible before you engage in an act of intimacy to the point where when on I guess like a dating website, they’ll send each other a list of like, “This is what I’m into, this is what I like, this is what I don’t like.”

 

Rick [00:47:22] Wait really quick, what’s the grey movie?

 

Jameela [00:47:25] 50 Shades of Grey.

 

Rick [00:47:25] I saw that movie. The guy was like saying- is it like that? That’s what BDSM is?

 

Jameela [00:47:30] I haven’t seen it.

 

Rick [00:47:30] Oh, it’s hilarious. But yeah, he’s like, “What’s okay? What’s okay? How about you? Could I, like, slap you with this thing or whatever and like.” Right, right, right.

 

Jameela [00:47:38] So, okay, so, so what I love about that is that then you send your list of yucks and yums to someone else.

 

Rick [00:47:45] That’s a good name for a podcast.

 

Jameela [00:47:46] Yeah, sure. And they send theirs back to you, and if the two aren’t compatible, you just decide not to meet up on a fucking date.

 

Rick [00:47:53] Perfect.

 

Jameela [00:47:53] Love that shit. I bet the BDSM community is full of neurodivergent people because they must feel so fucking safe and happy with the clear lines.

 

Rick [00:48:02] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:48:02] Like it’s ideal, and you think about the fact that

 

Rick [00:48:04] There’s a sexual intimacy that’s in any relationship.

 

Jameela [00:48:07] That’s what I’m saying is that, like, that’s what it reminds me of, is that you are asking someone and I do the same thing by the way, I ask people now, I know to ask people for their boundary so that I don’t cross it. I do a pre-interview for every podcast.

 

Rick [00:48:20] I remember.

 

Jameela [00:48:20] To ask someone, and you hated it.

 

Rick [00:48:22] I didn’t hate it. I’ll tell you the truth. It’s like I look, I understand what you’re asking. All of these things are okay. I would rather be able to do it organically.

 

Jameela [00:48:30] No, no, no. I know, but you can see where I’m coming from, which is that I’m trying to learn a bit from the BDSM community that I’m not a part of because I’m very pain averse. And I’ve already had enough humiliation in my life but.

 

Rick [00:48:43] I’m sorry.

 

Jameela [00:48:45] Yeah, it’s fine, just globally bullied. But I, I’ve learned from, I guess like that and ways in which I’ve upset people in the past unknowingly to now try to learn people’s boundaries and then meet them where they’re at and explain mine to other people. And I’ve just had so much more of a peaceful life since doing that. But that was just, you just reminded me of that as to like the fact that within that community there are so much less people crossing each other’s boundaries, less trauma, less falling out, because

 

Rick [00:49:13]  I would argue more trauma, but

 

Jameela [00:49:14] Well, it’s not trauma if you. I, however, they choose to frame that trauma, but I, it’s a happier dating space than the other one of just like this fucking weird guesswork over intimacy of like, I’m just going to do it and see how you respond.

 

Rick [00:49:29] So I have a hypothesis about that.

 

Jameela [00:49:31] Go on.

 

Rick [00:49:31] So what BDSM does, they will ask uncomfortable questions and tell you uncomfortable truths about themselves because they’re not afraid of being uncomfortable.

 

Jameela [00:49:40] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:49:40] That’s what I like. I want people to tell me, “Hey, Rick. I don’t like when you do this.”

 

Jameela [00:49:46] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:49:46] But people don’t do that.

 

Jameela [00:49:48] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:49:48] And that’s masking.

 

Jameela [00:49:49] 100%. Can I ask you something about, given this is a mental health podcast, have you found that the autism diagnosis made any shift in how you feel in the world? Did it increase your, I know it at first made you feel a bit depressed, but now that you’ve kind of learned to understand it, understand yourself, like work to find ways to communicate better with other people, have you found there to be an improvement in the way that you feel like less anxiety, less depression, etc? Or is it is it better or worse?

 

Rick [00:50:22] Well, first, when I got the diagnosis, it didn’t make me depressed, it made me so excited. Oh, this makes sense. The depression came from me communicating it to people and then realizing, “Oh, this is, that’s also, don’t use it as an excuse for anything. This is a journey just to better understand my wiring.”

 

Jameela [00:50:38] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:50:40] I don’t think it has helped with my anxiety. And I get anxiety is a big one for me. It has not helped with my OCD. My OCD has gotten better. And that that’s something we have time or interest we could talk about.

 

Jameela [00:50:54] Love to.

 

Rick [00:50:55] But where it has helped, is a, it’s helped me better understand my triggers. And by understanding them, I’m able to respond differently. For example, like when people are drunk, they’re not going to not be drunk anymore. You have to, the alcohol is in your body, but if you’re aware that you’re drunk, you could choose not to drive. And if the room is spinning, you’re not going to panic, you know, like, “Oh, this is because I’m drunk.” Like, you know why you are this way. When I have my obstacles, having a diagnosis hasn’t necessarily made those better, but it has made me be able to tap in and, like, talk to myself, “Rick, this is what happens when X, Y, Z. Don’t go out or take a walk or, you know, eat something.”

 

Jameela [00:51:46] Self-soothe.

 

Rick [00:51:47] Yeah, learning how, not only how to self-soothe, but when it’s necessary, is is, is is huge.

 

Jameela [00:51:54] Do you find, cause some of the people I know who were diagnosed especially late in life, have found that they’ve learned certain situations that they can’t very easily navigate themselves their way around, and so they’ve just stopped putting themselves in certain situations, not all situations. I don’t think it’s ever ideal. Maisie Hill was on this podcast and she’s, she has autism and she you know, she’s a big advocate for not allowing, even if she has a big problem with the wind, it doesn’t mean never going outside on a windy day with her children, it’s just finding ways to cope. But I do find that some people, therefore, once they understand what that triggers are, put themselves in less positions of that anxiety and that helps reduce the amount of anxiety. So, do you feel as though you’ve done that? Have you learned the situations that you need to separate yourself from?

 

Rick [00:52:39] Yes. I give some examples too. I’ve also done quite the, I’ve done the opposite sometimes, too. I started to do it.

 

Jameela [00:52:45] Like aversion therapy?

 

Rick [00:52:47] Exactly. Like that’s been connected to and helpful for my OCD.

 

Jameela [00:52:51] Right.

 

Rick [00:52:51] And some things I’ve accepted that I can’t, and I try and use the language of “I can’t yet,” but not that “I can’t” because I don’t want to get stuck in the things I can’t do. But a silly example is clothes. There are certain, I wear pants sometimes, even these I mean, they’re elastic.

 

Jameela [00:53:07] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:53:07] Certain clothes I, in certain moments I can’t wear. And then there’s sometimes where I have to go to a thing that requires these clothes.

 

Jameela [00:53:15] What kind of clothes?

 

Rick [00:53:16] Pants.

 

Jameela [00:53:17] Any pants?

 

Rick [00:53:18] Pants that aren’t elastic.

 

Jameela [00:53:19] Right.

 

Rick [00:53:20] Or a dress shirt.

 

Jameela [00:53:22] Oh, the material of dress shirts are fucking horrible.

 

Rick [00:53:25] The material, also the buttons.

 

Jameela [00:53:27] Makes my teeth feel funny just thinking about it.

 

Rick [00:53:29] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:53:29] I really hate velvet. I can’t wear velvet. I can’t be in a room with velvet very easily. I can’t touch someone if they’re wearing it. It makes me really want to like

 

Rick [00:53:37] I would love to not go on with more examples of this.

 

Jameela [00:53:39] Sorry, okay.

 

Rick [00:53:40] I understand. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s visceral.

 

Jameela [00:53:42] No, I actually. I’m not enjoying it, so that’s good.

 

Rick [00:53:44] So we’ll move on. But sometimes you have to wear this thing to this thing because otherwise the person, the people of the event might feel the disrespect.

 

Jameela [00:53:53] Yeah.

 

Rick [00:53:53] So in those moments where I feel like I have to, I’ve made the commitment or something needs something.

 

Jameela [00:53:59] When you first said pants, I thought you meant you wanted to be able to go to that event just pantless.

 

Rick [00:54:03] No, sweat pants.

 

Jameela [00:54:04] Okay, that’s fine.

 

Rick [00:54:06] Actually, you know what, I’m going to give a free plug to a brand that I’m wearing right now that.

 

Jameela [00:54:11] Okay.

 

Rick [00:54:11] That sponsored my podcast, and that’s the only reason I know about it. It’s called Marine Layer.

 

Jameela [00:54:17] Okay.

 

Rick [00:54:17] And these pants that are corduroy pants, and they look and they feel like pants, inside are sweat pants. They’re just like, I know these things have existed before, they’re called joggers, but pants like that, they don’t go by waist size. They go by small, medium, large, extra large.

 

Jameela [00:54:32] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:54:33] And the size it fits my waist is are always too short, and I can never wear them. And like I wear these all the time now.

 

Jameela [00:54:39] Great.

 

Rick [00:54:40] They’re just sweat pants, but they look like pants, so that’s a little bit of a cheat.

 

Jameela [00:54:43] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:54:43] But I didn’t, I used to not go to things. I wouldn’t go to events, I wouldn’t go to, I mean, I went so long without leaving my house. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t do anything. And then when I got the diagnosis, and I learned that, “Oh, it’s, I know I’m sensitive to textures and feelings that I didn’t realize that’s what it was. Oh, I don’t like pants.” Like, I didn’t know that. So knowing that now, I’ll tell people, like when they invite me to something, I say up top, “Could I wear sweat pants to it?” And almost always with exception of one time somebody wanted to take me to the theater, they say, “Yeah, that’s fine” and that you get. So I’ve learned how to set expectations of I’m going to wear bad, bad, bad clothes to this thing.

 

Jameela [00:55:25] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:55:25] And also there are things that like if people want me to go to a wedding that I have to get on a plane for, and I don’t want to because I don’t like traveling much, I’ll say no. So before the diagnosis, it would maybe be like, “Oh, I have to do this thing. And now I’ve accepted.” I mean, it’s not the best example, but

 

Jameela [00:55:43] Has that helped you?

 

Rick [00:55:43] Mhm.

 

Jameela [00:55:44] Great. So in that way, then perhaps there’s less frequency, hopefully, of the anxiety?

 

Rick [00:55:51] No.

 

Jameela [00:55:51] No? Okay.

 

Rick [00:55:53] No, it’s less frequency of the anxiety caused by obligation.

 

Jameela [00:55:56] Right.

 

Rick [00:55:57] But the anxiety, the most of it, isn’t based on obligation.

 

Jameela [00:56:00] Do you know what causes your anxiety?

 

Rick [00:56:02] I don’t know. I have to imagine, at least in part, it’s chemical.

 

Jameela [00:56:07] Mhm.

 

Rick [00:56:08] I know that things exacerbate it. Am I saying that word right?

 

Jameela [00:56:11] Exacerbate.

 

Rick [00:56:12] Exacerbate it. I know that when I’m anxious, I need that self-soothing thing that you had brought up. That becomes a priority. And I also know that if I say yes to something that I, I, I will do it. I’ve committed to something, so I do it. And I also get afraid that what happens if I’m in, I’ll just call it an anxious state. Like if we commit to doing a podcast and then if I’m really anxious. So I, I for a long time, I wouldn’t make any commitments, not because I don’t like doing stuff, but I was scared that what happens if that day I’m in a moment?

 

Jameela [00:56:48] So now what do you do?

 

Rick [00:56:49] Now I do it anyway. That’s the aversion?

 

Jameela [00:56:52] Aversion therapy.

 

Rick [00:56:53] Yeah, that’s where I do it. That’s where I put it in my calendar, and I know that I have to do it. If something comes up, obviously but

 

Jameela [00:57:00] Aversion therapy, by the way, just for anyone who’s never heard of that before is where you let’s say, for example, with me, I have a like pathological terror of bees and wasps to the point where for several summers of my youth, I didn’t go outside for almost six months of every year and missed a lot of school. And I wouldn’t have any windows open even though we don’t have any air conditioning in England. And so I would just sit here, sit there sort of like sweating to death because I was so afraid a bee could come into the room. So I was taken by a cognitive behavioral therapist

 

Rick [00:57:33] And you put your head in a beehive.

 

Jameela [00:57:34] Put me in a bush that had bees in it and made my, I will say that that particular therapist, I think, took it too far. And I became much more afraid of bees.

 

Rick [00:57:46] But in theory

 

Jameela [00:57:46] But normally, when it’s done by someone who is careful and good, you know, then then it can really help you see that you do the thing that you almost afraid of and nothing terrible happens. And that becomes part of the therapy of like, okay, because the big fear is something absolutely horrific is going to happen, and so having that disproved in front of you can be incredibly helpful. I got chased by the bees, so everything backfired very badly for me.

 

Rick [00:58:10] That kind of validated the fear.

 

Jameela [00:58:11] That’s not going to happen to you. I think she’s not still practicing cognitive beahvioral, I hope, anyway. But yeah, yeah. Just explaining it.

 

Rick [00:58:18] Doing the thing that you’re afraid of, if you’re afraid of it, if there’s a logical reason to be afraid of it, then maybe that serves a purpose. But if it’s just an emotional trigger to show, “Oh, it wasn’t that bad.” And that’s how I feel about pants too. Like, I’ll put on pants and I’ll have a thing for a few minutes and I can’t wait to take them off. But it’s like, “Oh, this is okay.”

 

Jameela [00:58:39] Mhm. My boyfriend says that I’m very unfriendly when I’m wearing a tight dress. Or if I am wearing makeup.

 

Rick [00:58:47] Yeah.

 

Jameela [00:58:47] You know, like I make up mascara. He was like, “You become like a frosty, different person.” There are certain things I wear or certain things on my skin. If I’m wearing foundation on my skin, I just feel like, I feel crusty and I feel angry and I feel unfriendly. I become very short with everyone. So now I just don’t. I’ve now just become a lot more careful about when and where I do that and how I do it and

 

Rick [00:59:08] Why do at all?

 

Jameela [00:59:08] And I think that we should all be doing that, and I don’t think you should need any kind of diagnosis to have the permission to live more comfortably. I think a lot of people out there are putting themselves through, as I say this, especially for women, the amount of fucking uncomfortable shit that we do to ourselves. We, a lot of us aren’t eating enough, or we’re over exercising or we’re not sleeping enough because we’re getting up fucking early to do all this shit to look a certain way to meet a certain bullshit fucking beauty standard. It’s like, there’s so many things that we are wearing or doing, like heels. I can’t believe I wore stilettos. I cannot believe

 

Rick [00:59:42] I think it’s the silliest thing.

 

Jameela [00:59:42] It’s the craz- once you see it, you can’t unsee it. You’re like, I’ve thrown away about, I think, 15 pairs of shoes or given them away. But now I’ve just passed that discomfort on to someone else. Why the fuck was I?

 

Rick [00:59:57] Some women say they like wearing them. I don’t. I don’t. I don’t.

 

Jameela [01:00:00] No. It’s just-

 

Rick [01:00:00] I don’t know, I don’t get it.

 

Jameela [01:00:01] Listen, I like a platform, makes it more comfortable for my ankles. I really enjoy that. And I also really like being fucking gigantic. I love being like King Kong level tall compared to everyone else. It makes me feel safe.

 

Rick [01:00:14] You need bigger platforms.

 

Jameela [01:00:15] I love that. Yeah. So I enjoy, I enjoy that. But when it comes to balancing on a fucking tiny needle, my entire massive body, what the fuck was I doing? It’s so strange.

 

Rick [01:00:26] That, when I was talking about being uncomfortable, that’s what I was saying with your. People do things, and they’re uncomfortable, so other people aren’t uncomfortable. And I’m saying, let the other person be uncomfortable.

 

Jameela [01:00:39] Mhm.

 

Rick [01:00:40] Don’t do the thing you don’t want to do. Don’t wear the thing you don’t want to wear.

 

Jameela [01:00:43] Yeah.

 

Rick [01:00:43] Let them be uncomfortable because they got to figure out how to make themselves comfortable.

 

Jameela [01:00:47] Yeah. I mean, it’s a whole social infrastructure of that.

 

Rick [01:00:50] Mhm.

 

Jameela [01:00:51] So much of, again, like, just pulling this to women because you’re an authority on women, so I feel like we can just, like, really love on this.

 

Rick [01:00:55] I think you’re making a joke, but I really am. I’ve talked to a lot of women and I’ve listened, and I’m a big advocate for women and their orgasms. And I could tell you firsthand that or first ask me, I don’t know what you were going to say.

 

Jameela [01:01:07] I don’t even remember what I was going to say now, because I’m thinking about what a great authority you are for women.

 

Rick [01:01:11] I think you were going to say that women are important, and they need to exist.

 

Jameela [01:01:13] No, I was going to say that

 

Rick [01:01:14] Cause I couldn’t agree with you more.

 

Jameela [01:01:15] Yeah. I was going to say that I think that so much of what’s going on with women is that we are now starting to unpack that it’s okay to sometimes make other people uncomfortable if the way in which we’re doing that is just to be ourselves. It’s like, maybe I feel authoritative about this thing or I feel passionately about this thing or I want to advocate for myself, that creates discomfort. I completely agree with what you’re saying. And I think that that’s a place that we can apply that socially.

 

Rick [01:01:43] Mhm.

 

Jameela [01:01:44] I think it’s very helpful.

 

Rick [01:01:45] Yeah, but the aversion, immersion, whatever it’s called aversion, immersion can’t be adversion because it’s not aversive yet.

 

Jameela [01:01:51] It’s aversion therapy.

 

Rick [01:01:52] Aversion. Man, that’s a real thing.

 

Jameela [01:01:55] Yeah.

 

Rick [01:01:56] Do a thing two times, and it becomes easier.

 

Jameela [01:01:59] What’s the best example of that that you’ve experienced?

 

Rick [01:02:01] When COVID came back, my OCD went back to how it was when I was a kid. Bad.

 

Jameela [01:02:05] When COVID came back?

 

Rick [01:02:07] When COVID came.

 

Jameela [01:02:08] Sorry.

 

Rick [01:02:08] When my OCD came. Yeah, my OCD came back to how it was when I was a kid when COVID came. And then when it calmed down a lot and people are living their lives, I still wasn’t leaving. When I finally started doing stand up again, wearing a mask, walking up to the stage, wiping down the microphone before doing my act, I was forced to open up with my OCD and talk about my OCD because I needed to acknowledge this this theatrics I was doing with changing the microphone and all this stuff.

 

Jameela [01:02:41] Mhm.

 

Rick [01:02:41] And I didn’t want to have to open my act with talking about OCD. The only way to not do that was to not bring up the thing. So I decided to just go up, touch the microphone, and then go have a panic attack in the bathroom.

 

Jameela [01:02:55] Mhm.

 

Rick [01:02:55] And I went up and I grabbed the microphone and I just was fine. And the next time I didn’t wipe down microphones anymore. I went from not doing it or only doing it if I could do this thing. And by the way, in order to do it, I didn’t want the, I didn’t want to leave my container of wipes. So I’d have to bring the container of wipes up. So I’m bringing up a container. It’s, I’m bringing wipes to every show. It was just such a burden and just doing it one time I realized I’m still, even still I’m uncomfortable doing it, touching a microphone, and sometimes your lip touches it and it’s fucking gross.

 

Jameela [01:03:29] Mhm.

 

Rick [01:03:29] But also, that’s just an emotional response. Pants. I wear pants now when I wouldn’t, still not often. I make commitments to things even though I don’t- didn’t want to because

 

Jameela [01:03:40] Thank you for being here today.

 

Rick [01:03:42] My pleasure I want to thank you for having me. But those are things where it’s like, I don’t want to. I don’t want to. Rick, I know you don’t want to and you’re allowed to not want to just do the, just do it. Just put it in the calendar because then it’s done. The decision is made.

 

Jameela [01:03:53] Mhm.

 

Rick [01:03:53] I guess making decisions I couldn’t do. So yeah, I guess those are examples.

 

Jameela [01:04:00] Is there anything like that you want anyone to know who maybe has themselves been recently diagnosed with autism? Because a lot of people suddenly getitng that diagnosis.

 

Rick [01:04:08] I actually have an answer, and it’s very, very important.

 

Jameela [01:04:10] Okay.

 

Rick [01:04:10] Make sure to watch or listen to the Take Your Shoes Off Podcast.

 

Jameela [01:04:14] That’s such a cunt-

 

Rick [01:04:14] It changes people’s lives.

 

Jameela [01:04:16] Hahaha

 

Rick [01:04:16] Was that a Freudian slip as well? Did you mean to say clit?

 

Jameela [01:04:19] No. Hahahaha.

 

Rick [01:04:19] Well, learn about it. Get a book. There’s a book, I can’t remember, but we’ll have it in the show notes.

 

Jameela [01:04:27] Mhm.

 

Rick [01:04:28] That I read from a father of a son who was diagnosed with autism, and it wasn’t until his son was diagnosed that he was too. That was just the first book I read. So maybe there’s other great ones. I’m sure there are. But that was one that had the biggest impact. But that’s where it taught me the need to, in relationships where I could, teach other people how to communicate with me and ask them for the same. That one, and being okay that some people aren’t going to be able to make you feel safe because, I mean, I’m feeling this is very, very corny. I’m also feeling a little emotional about it. It also feels like something you would just see on a TikTok post. But safety as an adult at least, will not come from anybody but yourself. And in some of my relationships, when I was first diagnosed, I was looking for people to make me feel safe by telling of my needs. And that’s nice that people could help facilitate those things, but that puts a big burden on other people. And this is what’s corny, but I mean it 100%, the way I realized I feel very I feel safe now. I get anxious all the time, and my OCD sometimes gets very bad. I feel safe, and it’s because I’ve accepted what I am. This is, I know I’m feeling embarrassed saying this.

 

Jameela [01:05:53] You’ve nothing to be embarrassed about, and I’m really enjoying it.

 

Rick [01:05:57] I’m very lucky to have had parents that instilled that in me at a young age, so I’m despite any obstacles I have, I was given a great head start for it. But like, I really, really love who I am and I think I’m, I think I’m so funny. I think I’m so nice. I think I’m good at the piano. I think that I’m smart and all of these things as I say them out loud, these are literally things my mom had said to me as a kid, so I know it’s coming from that. But as an adult, I didn’t always feel that way. And I made a decision to like myself. I know that’s corny and I know that doesn’t, that’s not, that’s like affirmations in a mirror. I just, which is like, “I am beautiful. I am kind like,” I don’t know, that wouldn’t work for me. I just really like love who I am. And because of that, I feel and I’m sure I’m wrong a lot of the time, but I feel like the decisions I make are okay. The things I say to people are okay. The jokes I make are okay. But on the opposite end, if you’re so unaware, you might just love yourself and you suck, so I don’t know. After I got so depressed telling people and trying to explain to people the autism and when I was almost as if I was saying, “This is who I am,” which is why I’m so averse to it now. I realize there’s nothing I could say to people to make them see me.

 

Jameela [01:07:20] Mhm.

 

Rick [01:07:21] So it just was a burden from needing people to see me.

 

Jameela [01:07:24] And how do you feel today after having discussed it at length?

 

Rick [01:07:30] Okay.

 

Jameela [01:07:30] Good.

 

Rick [01:07:31] I think you asked because in the pre-interview I told you I don’t always want to talk about it. I don’t like talking about it for the reasons I was able to say. I don’t want to make any excuses, I don’t wanna make any definitions, but this was framed in a way of me just telling you my personal experiences, most of which has nothing to do with autism. Maybe it’s connected here and there.

 

Jameela [01:07:49] And I think also created a bridge between neurodiverse, neurotypical people and the fact that there are so many similarities between the way that all of us are being conditioned and that we can all take something from this and from these experiences and not have to pathologize or to categorize what is sometimes just the our fucking needs.

 

Rick [01:08:12] Yeah, let me give you a less corny answer then for advice about the need thing. Learn what your boundaries are and communicate them to people.

 

Jameela [01:08:19] Mhm.

 

Rick [01:08:19] I think that’s a more efficient thing.

 

Jameela [01:08:21] It’s a lovely, they’re both lovely answers. I really appreciate you coming today. I love how unstructured this conversation was. Normally, this podcast is far more kind of like we have a beginning, a middle and an end.

 

Rick [01:08:35] That’s autism, it’s cause of autism.

 

Jameela [01:08:38] Hahaha! But it was, today was, it was just a very raw conversation in which I really felt like I got an understanding of you. And I think the audience will, too, and hopefully from that take on a further understanding of themselves. You are- autistic people are not a monolith. You are not a spokesperson for them, but just you as a human, human to human, giving me such an in-depth insight into your personal lens is been really cool. And thank you so much for coming today.

 

Rick [01:09:05] Thanks for wanting to have me on the pod.

 

Jameela [01:09:08] Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnigan, Kimmie Gregory and Amelia Chappelow. And the beautiful music that you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. And if you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. It’s such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at I Weigh we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording, sharing what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners.

 

Listener [01:09:43] I weigh being independent. I weigh being a kind person and friend. I weigh overcoming personal trauma. I weigh good and healthy romantic relationship. And lastly, I weigh being who I am.