EP. S2E70 — The Morning Show Finale w/ Heben Nigatu

Ashley Ray: Welcome to TV, I Say with Ashley Ray–your go-to podcast for discovering what to watch on TV and getting you closer to the TV shows you love. I’m Ashley Ray, a comedian, writer, and former TV critic. And each week, my friends, fellow comedians, actors, and writers will drop by to dive into the best TV shows we’re all talking about right now. All right. Let’s get into it. Heben Nigatu, welcome to TV Club. You know Heben from Another Round, one of my favorite podcasts. She’s written for Desus & Mero and The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. She’s a producer, podcaster, and just all-around amazing person who knows the culture. So, I am so glad you could join me today. Welcome to TV Club.

Heben Nigatu: Hello. Oh, my God. Thank you for that generous introduction. I’m so excited to be here.

Ashley Ray: I am really excited for this episode. We have some big TV news to get into. I mean, first of all, the actors’ strike is over right now. It’s over.

Heben Nigatu: We did it.

Ashley Ray: Maybe not me so much personally. I mean, I was out there. I was on the picket line. I was handing out water. But the negotiating committee–they really did it.

Heben Nigatu: Yes. Salute. Salute.

Ashley Ray: Right now, SAG is voting on the proposal. And there is still some pushback. There are people who aren’t happy with this deal because there really aren’t the protections for AI that they wanted. And we’re seeing already that studios are announcing they’re partnering with AI companies. An Édith Piaf movie was just announced where she’s going to be entirely AI. So clearly, actors have a reason to be worried. How do you feel about this?

Heben Nigatu: I’m not fully caught up. There’s an informational meeting that’s happening that I was going to catch. I think it was already recorded on Zoom, so I’m going to catch that. But I’m a little nervous, to be honest, because we’re already like, “We’re back to work!” And then we’re like, “Wait, we didn’t ratify. We didn’t vote this week. We should make sure everything’s good.”

Ashley Ray: And I think SAG was like, “Well, we’ll do this Zoom informational thing. It’ll just be like an hour for any questions.” And it ended up going for, like, three hours. And I think there were a thousand questions.

Heben Nigatu: Good. Good. Press them.

Ashley Ray: And, you know, I do hope that membership pushes back. But at the same time, I think people are really afraid of going back to step one, having to start all over, and maybe not getting some of the other gains we see in this deal for background actors. But I just think the whole Hollywood AI thing is scary. I think writers got some protections, and it’s still not enough.

Heben Nigatu: I’m nervous. I’m really nervous.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. I just… We’ll see how it goes. But that’s, I guess, why we go through these deals and negotiations every three years, so we can try to fix things three years from now when we realized that–oops–actually all the studios are just going to use AI now. But right now, the strikes are over. The actors are back to promoting. Sydney Sweeney–she truly had a flight to Australia to reshoot things for her movie that’s coming out. It’s, like, that romcom that looks weird.

Heben Nigatu: Reshoot? Oh lord.

Ashley Ray: It’s supposed to come out in, like, a few weeks. And the day after the strike announcement, they had her on a plane to Australia to reshoot things. And I was like, “They must have bought her ticket at midnight.” The second the clock struck, they were like, “Girl, get back to work.”

Heben Nigatu: Reshoots in weeks? The movie coming out? That’s scary.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. That’s scary. That’s a little scary. But I’m still going to be there watching it because I think it’s gonna be really bad, so…

Heben Nigatu: Oh, I will be seated. Yes.

Ashley Ray: Oh, absolutely. I’ve heard they look like brother and sister, but it’s, like, an enemies-to-lovers romcom. It makes no sense. And I will be there, watching every second.

Heben Nigatu: Yes.

Ashley Ray: Over on Apple TV, we had The Morning Show finale last week.

Heben Nigatu: Oh, yes. Oh, did we.

Ashley Ray: I need to break this down with someone because every season of the morning show you wonder, “What is happening? What are they doing?” But this season in particular, I didn’t think it could get more insane than sending Reese Witherspoon to space. But they did. They did.

Heben Nigatu: And that was Episode One.

Ashley Ray:  And you’re like, “What else are we going to do?” And they were like, “We’re going to throw in January 6th. We’re going to throw in an Elon Musk type and two different corporate takeovers. For no reason at all, we’re going to have a waitress lick a table.”

Heben Nigatu: Oh, that scene.

Ashley Ray: I still have questions about that, that scene. But how did you feel about this season of The Morning Show?

Heben Nigatu: I love this show. It’s so entertaining. I never know what’s going to happen. And, you know, the leads are leading. Jennifer Aniston–she’s doing what needs to be done with what she has. It’s like soap opera meets, like, Aaron Sorkin monologues sometimes.

Ashley Ray: Yes! Absolutely. Yeah, It’s the weirdest tone where sometimes they’re just like, “Yeah, we could be a little Young and the Restless.” And then sometimes they’re like, “No, we are the West Wing. And the thing America cares the most about in the world is morning shows, and we need to represent that.”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah, it does really ask you to believe that that’s, like, the most important thing.

Ashley Ray: Yes. Like, every American wakes up and they’re like, “What’s going on with…?” I don’t even know who hosts a morning show right now. Hoda? Hoda is still doing it, I think. I think Hoda is still… But it’s just such a… In that sense, I’m like, “Okay, I can enjoy this. It’s camp, it’s not our reality.” And then all of a sudden, they’ll be like, “Oh, Retta’s here. And this is absolutely our reality. President Biden. COVID.” And I’m just like, “What? What are we doing, The Morning Show? I don’t understand.” What did you think of the finale?

Heben Nigatu: I do love that we’re done with this Jon Hamm, like, Elon Musk guy. I was like, “Are we somehow making him stick around? The deal goes through and somehow he wins?” But no. The villain comes down. He’s not going to be here any longer, I hope.

Ashley Ray: And in an interesting choice, even though we have had to see this character all season, they decided to have him destroyed completely off screen, basically.

Heben Nigatu: What do you mean?

Ashley Ray: In that final moment, we’re about to see this big board vote to see if he wins. And all of a sudden, Alex just comes in and is like, “I have a different idea, actually.” And they’re all like, “Oh, that’s pretty interesting. I guess she has a different idea.” And then they flashforward two weeks later. We don’t see the fallout. We don’t see, like, the actual vote. We don’t see if Jon Hamm’s character tried to stop this or do anything. It’s just two weeks later. Everybody was like, “Alex had a better deal. So, we just went with that, and it’s all done.”

Heben Nigatu:  I did love how she put her purse down. “I have a better deal.”

Ashley Ray: Yeah. She was really just like, “I have a deal.” And he was shocked because he’s like, “What? I thought we were dating, and you were going to help me.” And she was like, “No.” And then we just jumped forward two weeks later because I feel like the writers just didn’t know what to do at that point.

Heben Nigatu: I didn’t love how their relationship… First of all, their chemistry–were we supposed to buy that? I don’t know.

Ashley Ray: I never bought it. How do you have two gorgeous people like that, and they have no chemistry when they’re making out? We got one little, light sex scene with them. And I was just like, “They both look like they are at the doctor.”

Heben Nigatu: But also, just the way it ended–he does all these villainous things, and then by the end she’s still talking to him. “I wish we could have gone a different path.” And it’s like, “he tapped your phone, girl! Why are you talking to him like this?”

Ashley Ray: He tapped your phone. He made your friend quit her job because he threatened her. Everything he did was bad. Let it go, girl. You have bad taste in men, Alex Levy.

Heben Nigatu: Yes. I can’t remember who said that line, but I was like, “Oh, clock her. Yes!”

Ashley Ray: Yes. And then on the other side, Reese Witherspoon’s character–Bradley–throughout this season, she is… I don’t even know. So, okay. She’s sent to January 6th to report on it–as most mornings show news anchors are sent to do.

Heben Nigatu: She’s on the inside, baby.

Ashley Ray: On the inside. She has her face covered. She’s recording things. And she notices that this guy who has beat a police officer is her brother. And she goes through all of these things to hide the footage, hide that he was there, help him hide, and get him out of D.C., so he can avoid charges and stuff. But of course, because this footage airs on the news, the FBI is like, “Well, we want the footage.” She gives them edited footage that doesn’t have her brother. And they’re all like, “Why not give us the whole thing?” And somehow, Cory, the head of the network, like, pulls some strings so the FBI just lets it go.

Heben Nigatu: Right. Convenient.

Ashley Ray: Convenient. That part is also a little unclear. He’s just like, “I got it.” And she’s like, “Okay.” But then eventually there’s this giant hack and someone puts together that he was there, and Bradley helped him. And it’s Bradley’s girlfriend who figures this out because she’s also a reporter. And she’s like, “This is disgusting. I can’t believe he did this.” And Bradley is forced to quit her job because this is being used as blackmail against her. But then also her and her brother decide to turn themselves into the FBI. This happens in the finale in a montage with no explanation. So, you’re just kind of like, “What are they doing there? Are they turning themselves in? Are they being charged? What’s going on?”

Heben Nigatu: Right. And they walk in solo. No lawyers–nothing.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. They’re just like, “Let’s do this thing. Also, I never understood why she protected him in the first place when this is the brother who in previous seasons has, like, broken into the studio and ruined things because he’s an addict and all this stuff. And they just don’t really have a good relationship. And then all of a sudden, she’s like, “I will put my whole career on the line for this.”

Heben Nigatu: You know, I actually got that part. She kept being like, “He’s my only family.” And I was like, “Oh, she’s going through lots of loss and grief.” It’ll push you to, you know, actions you wouldn’t normally…

Ashley Ray: And her mom dies from COVID early in the season we find out.

Heben Nigatu: Right.

Ashley Ray: Because they got to keep it topical over there.

Heben Nigatu: I do love that. I do love how topical it is.

Ashley Ray: Yeah, it is funny whenever they try to be like, “Well, that was a thing that happened in the real world. Let’s just try to make it fit in the show.” And it’s like, “Okay. Sure.”

Heben Nigatu: Roe v. Wade is in the mix. Love it. Love it.

Ashley Ray: Yep. That was a big thing for some of the season. And then by the end, everybody kind of forgot that they were doing a whole thing with Roe v. Wade.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah. They were really hitting that beat, and then it just disappeared.

Ashley Ray: Yeah, because the Black news anchor, Chris, is supposed to be the new Bradley because Bradley gets moved to Nightly News. So, they bring in this girl. And she posts something about Roe v. Wade where she’s like, “Abort the Court.” And it’s–for a moment–this big moment of controversy. And they’re like, “Are we going to have to fire her? Oh no.” And then it just isn’t a plot point anymore. They’re just kind of like, “Eh.” Nobody cared, and she got a better job.

Heben Nigatu: Right. I didn’t love how she was here for, like, a hot second, and now they’re setting her up to leave.

Ashley Ray: Yeah, I was just like, “Oh, I thought we were actually going to talk about race in the show and make that a plot point. But no? Nope. That was just… Who knows?”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah, that was her whole moment.

Ashley Ray: Her whole moment. And I feel like between every season, they just sometimes are like, “Guys, I don’t know what to do with it. Can we just jump ahead two years in time, so we don’t have to deal with this anymore?”

Heben Nigatu: They do love a time jump–a convenient time jump.

Ashley Ray: They love a convenient time jump. So, I think we’re probably just going to jump ahead five years. And they’re like, “Bradley’s out of prison, and she’s back on the morning news.”

Heben Nigatu: Right. I was reading an interview with the showrunner, and she said the going to space bit was pulled from real life.

Ashley Ray: Yeah, I remember that Michael Strahan went to space because he was doing the morning show stuff. But for me, I guess I was more like, “Well, he’s more than just a news anchor.”

Heben Nigatu: He’s more than just the third hour of Good Morning America.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. You know, we all loved Michael Strahan when he was an athlete and did sports. And so, you send him to space. And I love that apparently Americans would just be watching this. In the show, everyone is glued to their TV, like, “Oh, my gosh. A news anchor going to space.” And I mean, first of all, they’re just going to orbit. It’s just like those rich people who orbit rockets. We’re over here watching For All Mankind where they’re putting people on Mars. Like, come on. Up your TV game. So, we got some more TV news this week–heartbreaking television news from Netflix. They canceled seven shows and only brought back one.

Heben Nigatu: Netflix loves to cancel a show.

Ashley Ray: They love to cancel a show. And yesterday they said, “We are canceling so, so many of them.” They did renew Unstable that features Rob Lowe and his son. I actually was a fan of the first season of that show. Didn’t think we’d get it back. But they canceled Glamorous, Captain Fall, Shadow and Bone, and, like, three other shows that I’d never heard of in my life.

Heben Nigatu: Wait, they canceled Glamorous? Oh, my God.

Ashley Ray: That’s what we need to discuss.

Heben Nigatu: No! I loved that show.

Ashley Ray: First of all, I thought I was the only person in the world who watched Glamorous. I’m not alone.

Heben Nigatu: No, I think literally no one has watched it.

Ashley Ray: No one. And I try to describe it, and I’m like, “It’s like a queer Emily in Paris. It’s amazing.” To me, it is Samantha’s Sex and the City reboot. Like, to me, that character is just Samantha. And instead of being with her friends in New York, she was like, “I’m going to get into makeup and hang out with my young gay friends now. I’m done with those ladies.” So, I treat Kim Cattrall’s character here as though she is just Samantha.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah, absolutely. She moved from PR to beauty and makeup. And she’s killing it.

Ashley Ray: She’s killing it. What did you love about Glamorous? I’m just so shocked to find another person who watched it.

Heben Nigatu: It’s me and my one friend. We talk about it. I love the young queer character. I can’t remember the character’s name. But they were such a joy–such a delight. And I really was looking forward to… They were playing with the relationships that they were exploring and kind of finding themselves in that kind of earnest YA show.

Ashley Ray: And it ends on this beautiful note where the main character realizes they might be trans. And I was like, “Oh, I can’t wait to watch this journey in the next season. I can’t wait to see how Samantha responds to this.” And instead, we don’t get anything. They canceled it, which… Can’t say I’m shocked looking at the viewing numbers. It was not really watched.

Heben Nigatu: I just didn’t hear about it. If you were to tell me, “Samantha’s, like, Part Two,” I’m in. I’m sold!

Ashley Ray: But it really was not promoted that much. I do think it came out, like, a month maybe before the actors’ strike and during the writers’ strike. So, I’m sure there were just so many issues of people who couldn’t promote it. But then also still, Netflix just does not do a good job promoting their shows. Like, I had to dig to find this, and I was like, “How come you aren’t just putting it on my front page? You know I want to watch a gay person in New York play with makeup. Like, come on.”

Heben Nigatu: I’m the target demographic for this.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. So, I’m absolutely heartbroken that it was canceled. But you know what this means. Kim Cattrall? She’s available. She’s free.

Heben Nigatu: Yes. Yes. Put her in all the things.

Ashley Ray: And maybe put her in Sex and the City reboot And Just Like That.

Heben Nigatu: Oh, I don’t know about that.

Ashley Ray: We got a little taste at the end of the last season when she graciously gave them a cameo that she filmed in another state.

Heben Nigatu: Which I get.

Ashley Ray: I am fully on her side here. And I loved her part of the cameo. Was it very clear they stitched this together and tried to make it sound like a conversation between two people who were actually talking to each other? Yeah. But it worked for me. And I want more of Samantha in And Just Like That. I miss her so much. I need her back in that universe even if she’s not friends with Carrie. Can’t she be friends with Charlotte on the side or something? Can’t she just kind of be there and maybe they slowly repair this friendship? I don’t know, but I kind of want her back.

Heben Nigatu: Oh, absolutely. I was so starved for Samantha that that, like, tiny little moment actually did something for me. It was actually nourishing.

Ashley Ray: I truly was like, “Oh, there she is.” And I mean, even though her call made no sense… She was like, “Oh, I was on my way to the airport so I could come to your dinner to say goodbye to your apartment. Then I realized I’ll miss my flight, so instead of just getting on the next one… Never mind.”

Heben Nigatu: It was just a logistical call? It was confusing.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. I also love that apparently, she was like, “I will get on a plane to come to a dinner to say bye to your apartment, but I will not get on a plane to go to your husband’s funeral.”

Heben Nigatu: Oh, yeah.

Ashley Ray: “For that I will send flowers. But fuck Big. I don’t need to be there for that. But–oh–you’re saying bye to the apartment? I’ve got to come through.”

Heben Nigatu: I really wish they hadn’t announced that she’d be on the show so early in the season in the trades or whatever. That could have been a genuine surprise.

Ashley Ray: Right? That would have been really nice. But instead, I think they announced it probably after the second or third episode came out. So, after that, you just kept being like, “Is this going to be the one with Sam? Is this going to be the one with Sam?”

Heben Nigatu: Right.

Ashley Ray: I mean, I love And Just Like That, and we’re going to talk about it some more. But I do love the show. I will watch it for 20 seasons, and I hope at some point Kim Cattrall is like, “I do need a paycheck,” and she comes through.

Heben Nigatu: I do wish that for us, but I also wish peace for her.

Ashley Ray: True. True. And it does not seem like Sarah Jessica Parker is in a more mature place. I do feel like I’m not getting that. I’m not getting that growth.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah. I can’t speak to their dynamic, but obviously it’s not great. It’s not great.

Ashley Ray: It’s not great. And we’re going to get into the watchlist. The people want to know. Heben, what TV are you watching? What are you getting into?

Heben Nigatu: Ooh, okay. So, I just finished Selling Sunset. The reunion just happened.

Ashley Ray: Oh!

Heben Nigatu: How do you feel?

Ashley Ray: I loved this season. I did not think I would like it. You know, I was a little disappointed with last season, which was our first without Christine. So, this one, I was like, “It’ll probably just continue to be boring. They don’t have a solid villain. What are we even going to do here?” And I loved how they tried so hard to make Chrishell the villain this season. Every person tries so hard to make Chrishell the villain. And Chrishell is just like, “I’m a mature adult, and I will not do this.”

Heben Nigatu: Right. The whole time she’s always like, “I just have boundaries, guys.”

Ashley Ray: She’s like, “I’m sorry. I don’t understand why I have to share, like, a house with my boss and his new girlfriend and coworkers on a vacation trip. That just seems unhealthy.” And everyone’s like, “She is the biggest villain in the world.”

Heben Nigatu: Yes!

Ashley Ray: But then in reality, like, I did think Amanza was kind of the villain for me this season. She was so clearly trying to start drama with everyone, misrepresenting what people said. But also, Marie-Lou, Jason’s, like, underage child bride girlfriend, who apparently didn’t know how reality shows work.

Heben Nigatu: Oh, yeah. I feel like, in a reunion, they could have run the tape back for her.

Ashley Ray: Right? I was like, “You did it in the show. Run the montage of Chrishell being nice to her and being like, ‘Oh, how’s your daddy doing?’ because she was always so nice.” And when Marie-Lou goes, “Well, Chrishell threatened me,” that’s when I was just like, “Wait, what? When did she threaten you? There are video tapes everywhere–cameras. When did she threaten you, girl? You’re making things up.”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah, I was surprised they brought her up and didn’t, like… why even bring her on for the reunion? She was no longer dating Jason. Whatever. All of that to not press her on things she says.

Ashley Ray: Did she only agree to go if you guys would be super nice to her?

Heben Nigatu: Right.

Ashley Ray: I wanted to push. I wanted to be like, “So, girl, when you was lying, why’d you do that?”

Heben Nigatu: Exactly.

Ashley Ray: What was your favorite story from this season?

Heben Nigatu: I mean, Chrishell is a winner. She really won this season. I really enjoyed the scene with Marie-Lou… What is her name?

Ashley Ray: I think it was Marie-Lou.

Heben Nigatu: Susie-Lou? I don’t know.

Ashley Ray: I’m pretty sure it’s Marie-Lou, but it’s spelled like Marie-Lou.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah, I thought that was great.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. Marie-Lou Nurk is her name.

Heben Nigatu: Okay. That was just such a clear… The villain of this season is Chrishell having boundaries and being like, “Why do I have to like your current girlfriend?”

Ashley Ray: Yeah. And can we also just talk about how toxic it is that Jason has dated pretty much every woman who works there.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah. At the reunion, he revealed he’s also been with Amanza.

Ashley Ray: Yes, which I feel like was really clear. Like, I feel like Amanza has been putting that vibe out there since she joined the show because she was telling that one story this season where she’s like, “Oh yeah, there was a little bit of time when I was staying with Jason. And in the mornings, he would just get up completely naked and go outside.” And I was just like, “Why did he feel comfortable walking around you naked if you were his employee?”

Heben Nigatu: She said he would go outside and powder his balls. Y

Ashley Ray: I’ve never had someone I’m dating even do that in front of me, so I was like, “Clearly they have more of a history than I think she wants to let on.” And I also think that is part of what her issue with Chrishell was. I think they all kind of realized actually Jason did truly, truly like Chrishell and more than he liked any of the other girls.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah. You could see it in his eyes, honestly.

Ashley Ray: Any time she walks in the room, Jason is like, “There she is.” And even Marie-Lou could see it.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah, that’s when she felt suppressed.

Ashley Ray: The other big drama of the season was between Chelsea and Bre. Bre is Nick Cannon’s–I don’t know–third or fourth baby mama. She joined this show last season. Over this season, she’s basically told she’s pretty bad at her job.

Heben Nigatu: Oh, yeah. That was so awkward.

Ashley Ray: Yeah, they have a whole meeting where he’s just like, “So, Bre, I’m going to give you this, like, tiny, shitty house to sell because it should be easy. But, like, you’re kind of bad at this, I guess, because you haven’t sold anything. So maybe do your job.” And she gets offended by that and starts going, “Actually, the issue isn’t me. The issue is that I don’t get enough of a commission split. And I don’t even want to work here in the first place.” And on top of that, Chelsea is trying to build a bridge to forgiveness or at least, like, them being chill with each other after she spent the previous season insulting Bre’s entire family.

Heben Nigatu: Right.

Ashley Ray: Family–way of life–everything. And then this season, she just tries to be like, “Yes, I said all of that. And yes, I still believe in it, and I mean every word I say. But can you just let it go? And can we be friends now?”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah, I kind of admired that–to be like, “I talked shit about you before, and I still believe you ain’t shit.”

Ashley Ray: “But, you know, girl, we can be friends. I don’t need to like all my friends and their baby daddies.” And Bre seems to, like, go with it for a little bit. For exactly three hours, Bre and Chelsea are friends. And then Chelsea brings around this girl–I don’t even know her name–but she’s also a real estate agent. And she just was also hanging out in Cabo. Chelsea starts bringing her around. And it comes out that this girl and Bre had been kind of friends, or at least they followed each other on social. And Bre had asked this girl to take work out classes with her. And that girl was very… I didn’t think she came on too strong. I thought her vibe was definitely “We know of each other. Hey!” And Bre’s like, “She’s a fucking stalker. She’s obsessed with me. She wants to basically be me.” And everyone’s like, “Really? Because she just seems like a nice girl who was nice to you.”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah, I wasn’t buying Bre’s, like, “Oh, she’s obsessed with me.” She’s just a girl that’s being friendly.

Ashley Ray: Anything else you loved from the Selling Sunset reunion and the season?

Heben Nigatu: I thought I wouldn’t care for the Selling the OC random aside that they gave us. But I was like, “Ooh, something’s going on there. I’m actually intrigued.”

Ashley Ray: I haven’t started Selling the OC. And that clip did kind of make me go, like, “Okay. I could watch this.” And when they had that dinner during the season where some of the Selling the OC people came and Amanza was so mean to that one girl for no reason…

Heben Nigatu: Yes.

Ashley Ray: Like, the girl is truly just like, “I’m just really, really grateful for the invitation to be here, and I can’t wait to see what the group does.” And Amanza is like, “This stupid bitch.”

Heben Nigatu: “In her Fashion Nova knockoff or whatever.”

Ashley Ray: Why are you being so mean? I don’t think the Selling the OC people make as much money as y’all. I don’t know. But, like, chill out.

Heben Nigatu:  That woman is a chaotic figure, though, so I kind of get where the energy is coming from.

Ashley Ray: Okay. Yeah, I got to get into Selling the OC.

Heben Nigatu: She’s a lot. She’s a lot.

Ashley Ray: I just finished my For All Mankind rewatch, and the new episodes– So Season Four just started. I rewatched Seasons One through Three to prep for Four. Do you watch For All Mankind?

Heben Nigatu: I don’t. Tell me more about the show.

Ashley Ray: So, it’s supposed to be… Originally people felt like it was Mad Men but set at NASA in an alternate history. And the first season, I will say, is that. It’s really good. It’s strong. It looks at the lives of these astronauts. And obviously this is still when space travel is dangerous. So, every time you’re like, “Oh no, is the rocket going to explode? Like, are they going to make it? What’s going to happen?” And it was great. And then over time, it has become more of just a soap opera where sometimes space things happen.

Heben Nigatu: Okay.

Ashley Ray: Yeah, it actually reminds me more now of Homeland. Like, I don’t understand why critics praised this show and said it was the next Mad Men when it is truly more like a Showtime show that has gone off the rails past Season One. Like, now, at this point, there’s a mother character who hooks up with her son’s best friend–her dead son’s best friend–when he is of age. He’s, like, 19. But it’s still this creepy moment of, like, “He’s literally the age of your dead son. Why are you doing this?”

Heben Nigatu: Oh, Lord.

Ashley Ray: Which, like, starts a whole chain of things where that guy, like, tries to kill her husband in space because they’re both astronauts. And the biggest thing in this other alternate universe is that obviously people who live there in this America are like, “Hey. It’s stupid that we’re spending so much money to go to the moon and to build a thing on Mars so we can, like, find water there when there are people on this planet who are starving and we have wars and we need to fund schools.”

Heben Nigatu: Sure, sure, sure.

Ashley Ray: And I’m like, “If I lived in this, that would be me.” I would be like, “Guys, I don’t care about Mars. Like, there’s people here.” But in the show, everyone is just like, “That is so stupid. That’s the dumbest thing you could say. The most important thing in the world is space travel.” But at no point does the show ever, like, tell you what is so important about what they’re doing in space.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah. What are the stakes here?

Ashley Ray: Exactly. So, you know, is it worth watching? If you enjoyed the first season, that might be all you need to watch–the current season. There’s also this clear thing now where they have favorites in the cast and characters they don’t want to kill. Season One, it was like, “Anybody could die. Who knows?” And now they are introducing new characters in a way that lets you know, “Oh, that person’s being introduced because they’re going to die.”

Heben Nigatu: Okay.

Ashley Ray: “We need bodies that we can kill that aren’t the main characters, so let’s just throw in some new people.”

Heben Nigatu: Gotcha. Gotcha. I think I’m going to check this out.

Ashley Ray: It’s worth watching–the first season. After that, if you like a soap, it’s good for that.

Heben Nigatu: I love a soap.

Ashley Ray: Okay then, yeah. Yeah, then it’s worth it. But if you were like, “Oh, this seems like an in-depth, interesting drama about the, you know, dangers of space and politics,” it is not that. It is not.

Heben Nigatu: Okay. Okay, good. I want the soapy version.

Ashley Ray: What else is on your watchlist?

Heben Nigatu: I’ve been watching a lot of Suits, of course, like all of America.

Ashley Ray: All of America–we joined together to rewatch Suits.

Heben Nigatu: I watched Sex Education–finished that up–the final season.

Ashley Ray: The final season. What did you think? I also finished that one up.

Heben Nigatu: The fourth season is so different from the rest because they’re in a different high school and, you know, I’m just like, “Oh no. Change. I don’t love change.”

Ashley Ray: Something like 70% of the original cast could not come back to the show.

Heben Nigatu: That felt so odd. It felt odd to me. And I love the characters so much. I love the show. So, I was like, “Oh, I’m going to ride to the end, of course.” And I love Ncuti Gatwa. He’s such a star.

Ashley Ray: Absolutely love him. Absolute star. And I thought the focus on him this last season was really my favorite part.

Heben Nigatu: It saved it for me.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. It also felt a little disconnected from earlier seasons because he was like, “All of a sudden I’m in this new school with queer people and I can be queer and go out and do stuff like this.” And it was like, “Do you not remember when you went back home and you went to a gay club?

Heben Nigatu: Right. At one point he said, “This is my first kind of, like, big queer party.” It’s like, “You already did this!”

Ashley Ray: Yeah. And it’s like, “Okay, I’m not going to take away your first–however you define it–but it’s not.”

Heben Nigatu: It felt a little inconsistent for sure. But he’s such a star, I was pleased with the way that it ended even if everything doesn’t come together for me.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. Did you want Otis to end up with either of his choices–his two little lady loves?

Heben Nigatu: Not really, to be honest.

Ashley Ray: Right? I was like, “He doesn’t deserve a girlfriend.”

Heben Nigatu: He doesn’t. And he was such a bad friend this season.

Ashley Ray: Bad friend. A bad son–horrible son. I’m like, “Your mother is dealing with postpartum depression. She’s having issues with, like, the baby. And you don’t even care.”

Heben Nigatu: Yes. Yeah. I was like, “Whatever. If he doesn’t end up with anyone, that’s good by me.”

Ashley Ray: Yeah, that’s exactly what he deserves. And I know Maeve–the actor who plays her–was filming other things, so she could only come be a part of some of the episodes. But I thought they did a good job of getting her into the program in America, where we got a wonderful performance by Dan Levy, where he is an asshole professor.

Heben Nigatu: I love that. Yeah, that was delightful.

Ashley Ray: I absolutely love that. That made it all worth it for me–him just looking at these students and being like, “You’re shit.”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah. Classic writers struggle, though, you know? Someone’s got to tell you it, even if it’s yourself.

Ashley Ray: I feel like he’s still trying to make an image that’s different from, like, Schitt’s Creek nice person.

Heben Nigatu: Right.

Ashley Ray: Between that character and The Idol, I’m just like, “You’re course correcting too hard. You don’t need to be the worst guy.” But, yeah, Sex Education–it wrapped up. I agree. It did a pretty solid job. Solid job there.

Heben Nigatu: It did introduce new characters that I like. I just wasn’t… That just wasn’t what I was wanting from it. It felt like a spinoff or something.

Ashley Ray: Exactly. If these characters had been introduced the season before, I could have been invested. But knowing, “Well, this is the final season, and you’re just bringing these people in because you have holes to fill in the cast…”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah.

Ashley Ray: And they had interesting stories. I loved the, like, group of popular kids.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah. The popular kids in the school are, like, the queerest, funnest, like, liberal, politically involved…

Ashley Ray: Yeah, like, in any American high school show, they would be the outcasts and, like, loser nerds. And in this show, they actually run the school, and they’re the coolest.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah, that was a fun little reversal.

Ashley Ray: So, yeah. They’re doing a good job over there. I’m going to miss that show. And–yeah–I guess probably Netflix would have canceled it anyways since they canceled so many things.

Heben Nigatu: Yes, we got four seasons. We gotta be grateful for that.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. And on Netflix, you have to be grateful for four seasons.

Heben Nigatu: You blink, and your show is gone.

Ashley Ray: Oh, yes.

Heben Nigatu: Another show that’s coming up that I’m excited about is Elsbeth–the Good Wife Cinematic Universe new show–with the plucky redhead, Carrie Preston, as the lawyer that we love. She’s back. She’s starring. We love it.

Ashley Ray: I am so excited for this because they did announce they aren’t going to do the other Good Wife– and then obviously, we had The Good Fight. There’s just so much in the Good Wife universe to work with.

Heben Nigatu: Yes.

Ashley Ray: I am so, so excited. I don’t even think they have announced a premiere date. Have they?

Heben Nigatu: They just did. It’s mid-February, I believe.

Ashley Ray: I will be right there, watching.

Heben Nigatu: Seated. I am seated. And I saw Carrie Preston a lot on the picket line, which made me so happy. She’s a real one, y’all.

Ashley Ray: She’s a real one. I feel like all of the Good Wife people were out there. And I was just like, “You guys would be. You would.”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. I’m excited for that one. I have been watching the Frasier reboot on Paramount+, which is also CBS, I guess.

Heben Nigatu: Tell me more. I’m not a Frasier girl.

Ashley Ray: I would say the show isn’t a Frasier girl. It’s like they did a Frasier reboot and they were like, “Let’s not hire anyone who was involved or knew of the original Frasier or liked it or even thinks it’s a good thing. Let’s just do a completely different kind of sitcom where Frasier lives in Boston now with his son.” And it’s the one that’s made me go, “Okay, we need to stop with these reboots. We need to stop doing this. We’ve got to stop. Come on.”

Heben Nigatu: Which has been your best, in your opinion–best reboot?

Ashley Ray: Ooh. That’s a good question. I mean, I would go Sex and the City reboot is the best one.

Heben Nigatu: I feel like it’s the best one if you don’t think of it as a reboot–as just a separate show.

Ashley Ray: It is a separate show. It has no connection to the earlier show. And then I’m like, “This is a perfect thing.”

Heben Nigatu: The characters just have the same names. That’s it. That’s how they’re connected.

Ashley Ray: Yes. Yeah. And then it’s perfect. Best thing I’ve ever watched. I honestly can’t think of any that I think does a really good job of staying true to the original. I guess I would say the Night Court reboot.

Heben Nigatu: I didn’t see that.

Ashley Ray: It’s on CBS, so nobody did except for me. Do you have any that you think do a good job?

Heben Nigatu: I got nothing. Sex and the City is the only one I’m watching. I didn’t see the Gossip Girl one. I meant to do that.

Ashley Ray: I tried that one. And there was debate, like, is that a remake or reboot. It is a reboot because characters from the original Gossip Girl exist within the universe of the new one. So, it is a reboot. But that one was bad. It just made no sense.

Heben Nigatu: Okay. Okay.

Ashley Ray: It was like someone had the idea: “Well, what if this time the teachers are Gossip Girl?

Heben Nigatu: I didn’t realize that was going on.

Ashley Ray: The whole premise is just like, “But what if this time the teachers are Gossip Girl?” And about two episodes in, you’re like, “Oh, that’s fucked up. The teachers can’t be Gossip Girl. That’s not what teachers do. These are horrible teachers who should all lose their jobs.”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah, that’s an untenable premise.

Ashley Ray: Exactly. Exactly. And you watch that whole, like, first season, and it’s like, “Why would the teacher stalk these two students and take pictures of them and think this is a normal and good thing to do?”

Heben Nigatu: Oh no. Oh no.

Ashley Ray: They tried over there.

Heben Nigatu: Oh, I did watch the Arrested Development reboot way back in the day. That was terrible.

Ashley Ray: That was bad. And that one was so confusing because they did, like, an Arrested Development movie on Netflix or something. And then they did, like, the reboot season. But none of the actors could actually film together. So, you notice, like, “Oh, how come Lindsay hasn’t been in, like, three of the episodes?”

Heben Nigatu: Right. Right. It’s odd.

Ashley Ray: Yeah, they did a crowd scene where you could definitely tell they used a stunt double to stand in as Lindsay and make it look like the whole family was there. It’s just… That’s the thing about reboots. The timing has to be right. Like, your whole cast has to be together. It has to be very… “Yeah, guys, I think now is the time. Let’s do this.”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah.

Ashley Ray: Any reboots you’d like to see?

Heben Nigatu: Ooh. I don’t know. I definitely always feel like, “Let’s just leave it in the past. We had a good run.”

Ashley Ray: Right? Unless you’re doing the Sex and the City formula where you make it seem like a completely different show…

Heben Nigatu: Exactly.

Ashley Ray: There’s no need.

Heben Nigatu: Maybe Six Feet Under.

Ashley Ray: Ooh, that could be a good one.

Heben Nigatu: I don’t know. But, no, I don’t know.

Ashley Ray: But the ending of that one is so definitive. It would have to be like, “Look at, you know, Claire–her kids–or something.”

Heben Nigatu: Nah. Nah. I take it back.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. Yeah. Nothing’s beating that finale with the Breathe Me by Sia playing.

Heben Nigatu: Are you kidding me?

Ashley Ray: I still sob any time I watch that.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I should rewatch that again.

Ashley Ray: It’s a good rewatch. It’s a good holiday rewatch.

Heben Nigatu: A holiday rewatch. Ooh. You’re getting real emotional.

Ashley Ray: I like an emotional holiday rewatch where I’m like, “I know the beats. I can kind of close my eyes and fall asleep a bit during it. But when I wake up, I’m not going to miss anything.”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. The Crown is another good one for that. And they just released Part One of the final season of The Crown. It’s getting terrible reviews. Obviously, this final season–it deals mostly with Princess Diana’s death and the aftermath. And they made the choice to use a ghost Princess Diana who talks to people.

Heben Nigatu: Whoa. I did not know that’s what was happening.

Ashley Ray: Yeah… This used to be Netflix’s prestige show. Everyone was like, “This is their golden, big show.” And now people are like, “This is a royal soap opera with ghosts.”

Heben Nigatu: I kind of love that. Maybe I should start watching.

Ashley Ray: The first few seasons are amazing, and I did love them. The last one that starts to focus on Princess Diana and the divorce? It was so boring I had to give up. I just didn’t care. At that point, it’s like, “I was alive for this.” And you can’t make me think Prince Charles is this esoteric, like, hidden royal figure when I’m like, “No, we all remember when he said he wanted to be a tampon.” It’s not the same.

Heben Nigatu: Do you find yourself giving up on shows a lot?

Ashley Ray: No. It takes a lot for me to give up on a show. I still watch Grey’s Anatomy…

Heben Nigatu: Oh, we still in this bitch. Okay? Gang gang.

Ashley Ray: Did you see they announced yesterday that they have started readings for the next season. Gray’s Anatomy will be back in February, baby. We are so back.

Heben Nigatu: We are so back.

Ashley Ray: Season 20. I don’t care if it’s a whole new cast of interns and doctors or they’re like, “Oh yeah, we’ve lost all of the Greys. There are no more Greys in Grey’s Anatomy. But we can bring in Derek’s nephew?”

Heben Nigatu: Sure, sure.

Ashley Ray: Sure. Why not?

Heben Nigatu: Yeah. I feel weirdly loyal to that show. But I do tend, in general, to not give up on shows.

Ashley Ray: Yeah, I don’t give up on shows. So, if I do give up, it’s like, “That got really bad. It was unwatchable.” But I did every season of Shameless.

Heben Nigatu: Oh, nice.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. I feel like it’s a lot of the Showtime shows. They really don’t know when to end their shows.

Heben Nigatu: Oh, I gave up on Dexter. That was when.

Ashley Ray: I gave up on Dexter. I did try to watch the Dexter reboot and could not get into it. It’s a Dexter reboot, and I guess, like, Dexter’s son is killing people now or something.

Heben Nigatu: It runs in the family!

Ashley Ray: It was like, “Baby Dexter is a murderer now! But will Dexter kill baby Dexter to stop murders? I don’t know!”

Heben Nigatu: Oh. Whoa. Okay. That’s a premise.

Ashley Ray: It’s a premise. Obviously, we didn’t get more seasons of that one, I don’t think. It’s always hard to know with, like, the CBS Paramount shows. I just feel like they throw them out there sometimes. And then you open the app, and it’s like, “Oh, there’s that. Okay.”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah. There’s too much stuff.

Ashley Ray: There’s too much. We also, on Prime Video, had some seasons end. Upload just ended what will probably be its series finale. It’s the fourth season. It doesn’t seem likely that Amazon is going to renew it because nobody watches it except for me.

Heben Nigatu: Tell me more.

Ashley Ray: Upload is about a world where people don’t really die because you have the ability to upload your mind and personality to the cloud–the internet. And so, when people, you know, get so sick that it’s clear they’re going to die, instead they upload themselves. When people die in emergency or, like, accidents–instead of, you know, being in a coma or something–the family will be like, “Let’s just upload them.” And functionally, it is sort of the same as still being alive. People can call you. You exist. And then it becomes very much about capitalism and how this would work in America. Like, you choose basically a retirement home where you want to be uploaded. And Lakeview is the super expensive one for rich people. And then they have worse ones for people who are poor.

Heben Nigatu: Sure.

Ashley Ray: And so, until you get to this thing called Freemium where you only are given a gig of data.

Heben Nigatu: Oh, God.

Ashley Ray: You can’t access all your memories unless you pay more money. You can’t, like, talk to your friends back on earth unless you pay more. They send you money. And it’s basically a struggle of all of these uploads trying to survive because they actually do need money even though they’re uploaded.

Heben Nigatu: Oh man, that’s grim.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. It’s pretty grim and sometimes funny. I think it does a great job of satirizing, you know, capitalism and how this kind of death would work in America.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. So, check out Upload. Maybe if everybody watches it now, we’ll get more. But they also still have Invincible going, and they announced that The Boys will be returning to Prime Video next year. So, they got enough over there.

Heben Nigatu: Yeah. There’s so much stuff I need to catch up on. I keep hearing about The Boys.

Ashley Ray: The Boys is great. I love The Boys. I hate superhero movies. I’m tired of superhero shows. I gave up on Season Two of Loki. But The Boys? Oh, these superheroes… It is the show. And they just did a spinoff, Gen V, which also just had its finale a few weeks ago–both of them incredible. It’s so, so good.

Heben Nigatu: Okay, let me move that up on the list.

Ashley Ray: Yeah, move those up on the list! You got to get into The Boys. Definitely start with The Boys and then Gen V.

Heben Nigatu: Okay. Okay.

Ashley Ray: Are you happy that the late-night shows are back?

Heben Nigatu: Oh, absolutely. I’m excited they’re back. I am excited for After Midnight to check out what that’s going to be.

Ashley Ray: Same. I am really excited to see what they do with After Midnight, especially since, you know, At Midnight was very Twitter based. And I can’t say Twitter has the same relevance in the world now. It’s not even called Twitter anymore.

Heben Nigatu: Right. Right.

Ashley Ray: So, I don’t think they’ll still really focus on the Twitter aspect of it. But I am excited that we actually have a woman in late-night now.

Heben Nigatu: Hell, yeah.

Ashley Ray: They finally did it.

Heben Nigatu: I’m excited for that. I feel like there’s just not that many late-night shows anymore. I’m also excited to see who hosts The Daily Show.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. They are still doing trial runs of different hosts. They had Sarah Silverman come in for a bit. They had Desus come in for a bit, I think. I think so, right?

Heben Nigatu: No. Yeah. Desus had the DJ Envy week.

Ashley Ray: Oh, yes. Yeah. Oh, I need to go watch those because I saw some of the clips of him talking about DJ Envy, and I was like, “I need to sit down and watch all these episodes.”

Heben Nigatu: Yeah, it felt like stars aligned for that moment.

Ashley Ray: But, you know, the only reason they have to find a new host is because they fumbled the ball so badly with Roy Wood Jr. I will say that.

Heben Nigatu: Justice for Roy. We all know it. We all know you should be the host.

Ashley Ray: You should be the host. And we all know he’s just going to go on to bigger, better things. But, Daily Show, you dropped the ball.

Heben Nigatu: He’s, like, the best stand-up in America right now. I’ll say it.

Ashley Ray: I absolutely agree. The best. He has been the best in the game. And one of the best anchors they had on The Daily Show. And he just left the whole show. He truly was like, “If I’m not going to host, I don’t even need to be here wasting my time.” Absolutely respect that move. Know your worth. He knows his worth. King.

Heben Nigatu: He just did the Correspondents’ Dinner. He has the political acumen. He’s sharp. What are we doing here, folks?

Ashley Ray: What are we doing? What are we doing, TV? Get it together? See, I’m always saying I need to just be in charge of all the TV decisions because they don’t know what they’re doing out there.

Heben Nigatu: Exactly. I trust you with these decisions.

Ashley Ray: And if I was in charge of Netflix, we would have ten more seasons of glamorous.

Heben Nigatu: Yes!

Ashley Ray: Which is truly, truly what it deserved. Just R.I.P. to a really good show.

Heben Nigatu: I feel like if you let it cook a little, we could get even more of the Samantha because I do think she was… Kim Cattrall was a little reserved in this one. Just lean into it, girl. We know you’re great at it. You know it’s so fun.

Ashley Ray: Yeah. It was so good. And now we wait to hear about the next batch of Netflix cancellations. Survival of the Thickest–we are still waiting to hear what’s going to happen.

Heben Nigatu: That was fun. I really enjoyed that.

Ashley Ray: I loved that show. It was so cute and fun. Glamorous and Survival of the Thickest? That was a beautiful back-to-back for me. I was just like, “These two shows. Same universe. So much fun.” I hope we get more Survival of the Thickest, but it’s Netflix. They need every dollar they can to de-age the Stranger Things children so they can look 13 again.

Heben Nigatu: That’s the whole budget.

Ashley Ray: That’s all they care about over there. Well, that’s all of my watchlist, too. Listeners, I’m going to give you some homework now–some things you might want to check out that are debuting and some other finales we have coming up. Obviously, Below Deck Mediterranean. We’re still going strong. We are still going strong on Below Deck Med. And it looks like Captain Sandy is about to go full evil soon. And you know how I feel. She is my captain, my captain. I love her. I don’t think she does anything wrong. But it looks like she’s about to make a big mistake with her chef, and it’s going to make me angry. So, you may all have finally convinced me to join Team Hate Captain Sandy because if she does what I think she’s about to do, we’re going to have issues. So, make sure you’re caught up on Below Deck Mediterranean. Obviously, we still have 90 Day Fiancé going. Every week, there is still a 90 Day Fiancé–the main one. 90 Day: The Other Way is still going. And then we have The Family Chantel, which is in its final season since Pedro and Chantel finally got divorced. So, we’re going, 90 Day Heads. We have so much content every week still. And then like I said, For All Mankind. The new season, Season Four, is running weekly. We are two episodes in now, so we’ll be talking more about that as I continue to watch the fourth season and see if I like it, even though it seems very silly so far and like they are just introducing a bunch of characters so they can kill them on Mars, I will pretend that’s not what’s going to happen and maybe this will be a good season. And then there are just, like, a bunch of documentaries that I need you to watch that I am going to be doing a deep dive on the newsletter about. The Escaping Twin Flames cult doc on Netflix just came out. It is all about the Twin Flames Universe cult. There was another documentary about that cult on Amazon. They needed two documentaries to cover everything this cult did. And both of them are worth watching. They cover different stories. So, watching them both, you’re going to have the best time. The other documentary that I think you should watch is on Netflix. It is called The Mystery of the Ghost Train Fire. And it’s about this fire that happened in Australia in the ’70s at an amusement park on this ride called the Ghost Train. So, I would recommend that one. And then there Is Love Has Won: The Cult of Mother God. This just came out on HBO. It is a wonderful cult doc from one of my favorite cults, the cult of Mother God. It is about the life and death of Amy Carlson, who was this self-proclaimed spiritual savior, who mostly did her cult online and through, like, live streaming sessions and stuff. So that’s a three-part documentary that is coming out weekly. There you go. That’s your homework. Heben, I want to thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for sharing with the people what you’re watching–getting them into the good, good shows. Where can the people follow you?

Heben Nigatu: Yes. Thank you for having me. @hebennigatu on all the platforms. The “B” is a classic immigration typo. It should be “Heaven,” but it is what it is. Once you come to America and you get a Green Card, you don’t ask follow-up questions. It’s like, “That’s my name now.”

Ashley Ray: Thank you so much for joining us today. Listeners, you got your homework. You got so much TV to watch. You’re going to want to do that during the holidays before all the shows come back in February. Everything’s coming back. Grey’s, Abbott Elementary–we are going to be TV heavy! So, use this time–this quiet period–to catch up on everything. If you want to do a drunk binge with me, I will be doing a drunk binge of The Crown–the last season and the new one that just came out. You can follow that on the Patreon because I don’t think it’ll be interesting to anyone else. But I will be getting very drunk the week of Thanksgiving and sharing my thoughts on the royal family as they are portrayed in a Netflix show. Thank you so much for listening. And we will be back next week with another episode. TV, I Say with Ashley Ray is an Earwolf production made by Ashley Ray-Harris. It’s engineered by Abby Aguilar, produced by Anita Flores, executive produced by Amelia Chappelow. And our original theme song is by RaFia. It means so much to me if you go rate, review, subscribe. Follow TV, I Say. Let us know what you think and tell your friends. Share with your Golden Girls. Tell your Boys. If you love my TV recommendations, let everyone you know. For special TV Club members, join my Patreon.