EP. 334 — The Nerd That Becomes the Bully

Chris [00:00:04] Hello to everybody who really needs a friend to believe them. It’s Beautiful/ Anonymous. One hour. One phone call. No names. No holds barred. Hi, everybody. Before we start anything with today’s episode, I just want to say heads up. This episode includes conversations about abuse. Emotional abuse and physical abuse. Keep that in mind before you listen. And I send a lot of love to anybody who has dealt with those in any fashion. I know this might be weird, but just to get it out of the way, I also just want to say thank you to everybody who came out, supported my shows in Scotland, whether that was the Beautiful/ Anonymous live tapings or the run of my solo show. It was a weird long month for me. It was not always easy, but I met a lot of Beautiful/ Anonymous fans along the way, and as always, these past seven years have proven true; if there’s one group of people that keep me going, keep my head on straight, make me feel supported and sane in this world, it is Beautiful/ Anonymous fans. And that’s very, very true. So thank you to everybody who came out. Now, a little more about this episode. This one messed with my head when we recorded it. Our caller talks about a dating situation she was in that that thank God she’s not in anymore and… Yeah. You’re going to hear. It just goes in a whole bunch of places that are shocking, but also kind of not because you can see the web that this guy was weaving. And it’s easy. It’s easy for me as the listener to hear that. And you can hear at times it’s harder for the caller to kind of sort it out. And then I’m going, and I bet he also did stuff like this. And I bet you’re going to be having moments like that as well as you listen. I think we’ve all been in situations like this or our versions of them or know people in our lives who have. And it’s really hard. I get emotional, which I probably should never do. It’s probably just never a good idea. But I think historically everybody knows when I hear stories like this on the show, it brings out real anger. So brought it out in me this time too. What can you do? What can you do? I hope that the caller is well. I hope that you are well, listening, and I hope you get something out of this. And most of all, I hope that if you listen to this and it rings true to you and you realize you might be in a similar situation, I hope that it’s a wake up call that helps you move on in a way that’s safe and happy as well. Let’s go to the call.

Voicemail Robot [00:03:03] Thank you for calling Beautiful/ Anonymous. A beeping noise will indicate when you are on the show with the host.

Caller [00:03:11] Hello?

Chris [00:03:12] Hi.

Caller [00:03:13] Hi. Sorry, I have a mouthful of dark chocolate right now. I’ll swallow that real quick.

Chris [00:03:21] That’s okay.

Caller [00:03:21] How’s your day?

Chris [00:03:22] It’s good. Except I think you might be able to faintly hear my son screaming in the background because he doesn’t want to take a nap. That’s a bummer that he decided to start that literally as we patched you through.

Caller [00:03:36] One moment, I’ll just chew into the speaker for you. Okay. I’m on my lunch break from work.

Chris [00:03:46] Oh, nice. Our timing worked out great on that.

Caller [00:03:52] I’m in my car. Sorry?

Chris [00:03:53] I said the timing worked out great. We got your lunch break.

Caller [00:03:57] Yeah. Worked out great. Yeah. I was just something on my mind is that I think would be, I think it’s kind of perfect to talk about anonymously. So about a year and a half ago, I got out of a relationship that was six years long ish and was very mentally abusive. Um, it’s very hard to talk about publicly because of just how intangible the abuse is. It’s not- I mean, there was a little bit of physical abuse, but it wasn’t like Harry from Big Little Lies. It was like really annoying and twirpy. Um. So, yeah.

Chris [00:04:52] I’m so sorry that you had to go through any of that.

Caller [00:04:57] Oh, thank you. It means a lot to hear.

Chris [00:05:01] I’m glad you got out of it. I’m glad to hear you’re on the other side of it and comfortable to talk about it.

Caller [00:05:07] Yeah. It’s really interesting. So the reason I got out of it is… So I was living with my ex and then my we had roommates and my sister moved in with us. And at the time I was my mental state was like so degraded from gaslighting over time that I was pretty convinced that I was like an evil person. It’s it’s hard to explain, but over time, when you’re criticized so much you like I assume it’s a little bit like being in a cult, but you start to feel like, Oh, like I’m an inherently bad person. And like even when I would do good things, I would be like, Oh, it’s, it’s like a, it’s like my mask. Like I’m only helping this person out because, like, it’s to cover up my inherent evil nature. And then when my sister moved in, she was like, you’re you’re like really nice. You’re like a very nice person. And I was like, in my head, of course, I was like, That’s because you don’t know. I don’t know. It’s kind of like the real tragedy, in my opinion, of abuse is the way people’s- the way your mental state just gets so degraded and you really miss out on your competencies and your relationships and opportunities outside of the abusive relationship.

Chris [00:06:50] And you may have said, can you remind me how long you were in this relationship?

Caller [00:06:56] Oh, we were so we were I was 18 when I first started like seeing him and dating him and then it was actually him who broke up with me. And I was 24 when that happened. So it, it was, yeah, 18 to 24. Um, but yeah, so it was about six years. Officially more like five and a half. Um, but yeah, he broke up with me, immediately tried to take me back. But by that point, you know, talking to my sister was so helpful and hearing like, you know, you’re you’re like a good person was like it gave me the strength I needed to be like, no, I’m not going to take you back. Like, I’m very confident in the decision to break up with you. Um. It’s really hard to break up with an abuser because they have you… once your mental state is that degraded, they have a lot of power over you because you don’t trust your own instincts or perceptions and you don’t- and then they sort of groom you to rely on their on their instincts and perceptions and their distorted version of reality becomes the only reality that you feel like you can trust. I hope I’m explaining myself okay.

Chris [00:08:27] Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally.

Caller [00:08:30] Yeah. It’s interesting because a lot of people in my life think of me as this like really confident, intelligent, creative person. But I’ve like really flourished since getting out of this relationship like, so much. Like I look better because he was he was so controlling of my appearance that I, I was just I didn’t I didn’t look good, which, you know, shouldn’t matter. But it kind of does to me. And now I’m like, oh, like, I’m like an attractive person. Like, I, I’m like expressive with my clothing now. Whereas before, like, he would, he was controlling in like subtle ways. Like he would just always criticize my looks to a point where I like, didn’t feel confident at all and I would always be kind of frumpy.

Chris [00:09:22] And you were 18 when you started dating him. How old was he?

Caller [00:09:28] He was 22.

Chris [00:09:30] Yeah, that’s not surprising, right?

Caller [00:09:34] Yeah. The age gaps are so contextual.

Chris [00:09:39] Of course. Of course.

Caller [00:09:42] Yeah. Because… It’s interesting because I was such- back then when I was 18, I was such a naive person. Like I was so naive and so anxious, like so insanely anxious. And then he came in and he was a super senior and he was like the first person that was nice to me. But now when I think back about it, I’m like… I think he saw me for what I was, which was like this anxious, naive person, and he saw me as sort of like moldable. Or like, you know, her mental state is so malleable, I can exploit that. And I should have been allowed to be like kind of anxious going into college without being so exploited by this man. But. Oh, sorry. I’m such a talkative person, and I get paranoid that I’m talking so much sometimes. So feel free to interrupt me at any point.

Chris [00:10:51] Can you imagine if I was like, I’ll just interrupt whenever I want and take back the con-? No, it’s not. Don’t. You don’t have to apologize. It’s your conversation. I have questions, but I’m here to listen first.

Caller [00:11:03] Yeah. It was like one of the things that he he would always like comment that I was like too talkative. So now it’s like I always get paranoid that I’m, like, annoying people. I still struggle with a lot of the things he sort of convinced me of about myself that aren’t true.

Chris [00:11:19] Sure. How long? I think you said you were broken up about a year out of it?

Caller [00:11:25] Let’s see. It was like March of last year we broke up.

Chris [00:11:30] Good.

Caller [00:11:31] And that was an experience because we were tripping on acid and he was screaming at me. Oh, my gosh. It was so scary.

Chris [00:11:41] Was your sister with you?

Caller [00:11:42] Anyway.

Chris [00:11:43] No, we can’t just “anyway” that one. Whoa.

Caller [00:11:48] What’d you say?

Chris [00:11:49] I said, let’s, I don’t- we can’t just anyway that one. So you were on acid when you broke up with him. That’s that’s bold.

Caller [00:11:57] Yeah. My my sister was there. It was me, my sister, him, and then, uh, our other friend. Uh, and we were all tripping that day and my ex got very drunk and I could I could always tell when he was amping up to start. The big thing he would do was always yell. Like he would always yell at me for, like, the most, like, benign things. Like um like if I accidentally interrupted him, or if I talked too much, he would like yell at me. Like, and he would do this really scary thing where he would like scream laugh in my face like a fucking clown or something. Like, Oh, it was so scary. But yeah, he got really drunk and then he started to be like kind of a jerk. And then he went out to go get more beers. And then when he- I’m trying to do this get get this story over quick because it’s like so ridiculous and long. But yeah. As he was coming back from getting the beers, he there was these mean dogs in the neighborhood and he, he barked at them back this time and he tripped and he fell and he cut open his knee. And when he got back, he was like, my knee, it hurts so bad. I got him some Band-Aids. Handed it to him. He slapped the Band-Aids out of my hand. And I was like, okay, like I, I did everything I could. I got you a fucking Band-Aid. And then I sound so mean but back then I was such a doting little G.F. but like in hindsight I’m like, ugh, this guy. And then he got like really upset that I wasn’t nice enough about his knee hurting. And then he like yelled at me, my sister and my friend. He was like, None of you guys care about me. And then he slammed the door and left. And then when he came back, he apologized, but then he asked me if I thought I had anything to apologize for. And this is something I never would have done before my sister moved in. I said, No, I don’t think I’ve done anything wrong tonight. And then he broke up with me. And then he spent the next, like, hour screaming at me. And that sucked. But then I figured out how to move out. And that was the end of that. Thank God. And. Yeah. But. Uh oh sorry, what I was going to say earlier, I wanted to give a tangible example of, like, the way that they exploit preexisting anxieties um to give this sort of, like, plausible deniability that they ever were gaslighting and abusive because it’s like, oh, well, you were anxious about that in the first place, so how can you say that I gave you that anxiety? Um, but, uh, I used to be really anxious about driving. Like, when I was 18 I was such an anxious driver. And he would sort of like harp on my driving. Like, every time I drove in the car, I would get so shaky and I, I would be terrified to do, like I it was just so scary. And when, when you’re an anxious driver, you make more mistakes and then you get more anxious about the mistakes, and then you make more mistakes. And it’s like this horrible feedback loop to a point where I became a bad driver. I became the bad driver that I was terrified of being, um, because he was always yelling at me. Like I would turn when a car was like 200 feet away and he’d go- I was about to say my name- he would, like, scream my name. And even though what I was doing was perfectly safe, it would like, startle me and make me feel afraid. But then the other day I was on a date with a guy and he was like, Whoa, you’re like a really good driver. And I almost burst into tears because I was like, You don’t have any idea, like, how much that means to me to hear. Like, I’ve been out of this relationship for, like, a year and a half, and, like, I’m a good driver again. Like, that feels so good.

Chris [00:16:29] Ooh. I want to pause there because that’s a human moment. Someone compliments your driving and you start reacting like they just gave you the hugest compliment in the world, right? That’s that’s really telling and human and touching and sad. And I need to take a breath and maybe you do, too. We’ll be right back. Thanks to all of our advertisers who help us put out the show. Now let’s get back to the phone call.

Caller [00:16:57] You don’t have any idea how much that means to me to hear. Like I’ve been out of this relationship for, like, a year and a half and, like, I’m a good driver again. Like, that feels so good.

Chris [00:17:10] Yeah. Yeah, it really. I’m finding myself particularly bummed out that he dominated your entire college experience because that is traditionally the age bracket and the life experience where you, as a young person, go out, figure yourself out, make your own mistakes, grow. And it sounds like that entire stretch of life was dominated by this cackling dickhead.

Caller [00:17:41] He’s like a secret psychopath. I genuinely hope he’s improving. But, um, yeah, that’s the thing I kind of struggle with is like… I didn’t… I did get my entire college experience kind of dominated by this man who like kind of sucks. But it’s not something you try to ruminate about too much. I don’t… my experience has informed me so much that it’s like, Oh, well, my experience was like different from most people’s. Like, I feel like I’m coming out of it and, like, growing a lot, so… I don’t know. That’s like kind of the way I can come to terms with it is like the amount that I’ve learned from it is like the way that I can come to terms with it, if that makes sense.

Chris [00:18:48] Of course.

Caller [00:18:49] Like I can help other people because of my experience.

Chris [00:18:53] And you are who you are today. Figuring yourself out again, feeling strong again, feeling like a good driver again because of all that.

Caller [00:19:01] Um. Yeah.

Chris [00:19:03] So why sit and dwell on regrets? It just. It gets me. It gets me angry on your behalf, for sure.

Caller [00:19:13] Thank you. That’s. That’s like one of the best people- one of the best things people can say is when they’re like, I’m angry on your behalf.

Chris [00:19:20] Can I also say something else? Sorry to interrupt. Happy to phrase it that way. If that pushed the buttons. I also want to say this. This sounds like the type of guy. He sounds very much like a narcissist. Is there anything else you want to apologize for? Is there anything like, well, you’re not you’re not you’re not tending to my- I felt- I barked at a dog and fell down and you’re not tending to my boo boos in a way I find satisfactory. Like this guy sounds like real narcissist, and it sounds like the type of person- and I’m not trying to put any fear in you or invite you to clam up, but this sounds like the type of person who, should he find this someday, would be the type of asshole to sit and listen to all of it and sit there and go, Oh, and, and she’s she’s not, she’s not telling my side of the story and what about my side of the story? And I just want to go on record and say to the gentleman in question that if you are someday listening, I don’t give a fuck about your side of the story, you fucking asshole piece of shit abuser, manipulator, narcissist who needs your boo boos to be kissed the right way. Fuck you. I don’t care about you and your opinions. So if you find this, understand, you should be sitting here thinking about your own past behavior, thinking if there’s any ways you can finally admit that you need to grow and learn and stop the petty bullshit. Because I guarantee if you ever find this sitting here, going, What about me? But what about my side of the story? And again, just to reiterate it, don’t give a fuck about the side of the story of the asshole who criticizes his girlfriend for her clothes and her look and her driving and anything else he can find because he’s so fucking insecure. Okay. Sorry, Sally. I’ll get off the high horse. Continue, continue your story. Yeah.

Caller [00:21:11] Yeah. That, that that actually clears a lot up because that was actually something I thought about before calling was like… I don’t think he’ll find it. Uh, but I think about like, uh, like there are definitely things like I could have done better throughout the relationship. One thing I’ve gotten criticized for by people that I’m no longer really friends with is, you know, you need to take accountability for, you know, it was you- you were a part of why you stayed in the relationship so long and like you needed accountability for that. And it’s like, yeah, I take accountability for that. And like there are things that I would do that were sort of reactive. There are things that like, like I would do in a healthy relationship that I couldn’t really do in that space. So like, you know, if you have a, everybody knows, like in a relationship that is healthy, if you have a problem, you need to like bring it up and like talk to the person. But like in that relationship, I wasn’t very good at like bringing up problems because in every experience that I had bring up a problem, they would end with me getting like yelled at or like abused. This is a particularly strong example, but I had issues with um- TMI- I had issues with yeast infections like quite a bit when I was with him, which is crazy because as soon as I left that relationship, not a single problem with yeast infections anymore. And I’m like, was it like a weird stress thing? I don’t know. Was my my very vagina like rejecting this man? But one time like called my he was like, oh, yeah, cause I don’t want to get near your biohazard of a vagina. And then he was immediately so apologetic, which is part of that shame/ rage spiral. And, uh, that was just he would think that him feeling bad enough would, like, make me feel better, but it’s like, no, like it sticks with me. Like, I’m still, like, so paranoid about, like, my, my health down there and I get, like, worried about that kind of stuff. I get weird. It makes me feel ashamed, I guess. And I don’t think that was very fair to me, um, for something I couldn’t help.

Chris [00:23:48] Yeah. And I’ll say this: I think that you have the right. And again, I’ll also say this. This is one of those ones where I want to be clear that I don’t- all I can lend is a sympathetic ear. I can lend a platform. And I’m not someone who trained. There’s there’s people who are therapists who specialize in working with survivors of abuse. I’m sure there are people within that realm who are specialists with working with specific manipulation based types of controlling behavior and all this stuff. You’re far from the only person that I can, you know, many people I know who who have been in relationships who they say it felt like this cult, where it was like a one person cult and this guru was dominating. There’s people who know what they’re talking about. I don’t know what I’m talking about, but what I can say is it sounds very healthy for me when you say like, Oh, there’s people in life who say you need to take accountability for how long you stayed in it, and then you followed it up and went, Yeah. And I take accountability. And that is about the end of that conversation, you know? In the sense of like, yeah, of course, of course. Where did I go wrong? How can I make sure it doesn’t happen again? Are there times where I validated it? Are there times where I got addicted to it? Are there times where I did what- I’m sure you’ve done all that soul searching backwards and forwards. Doesn’t change the fact.

Caller [00:25:10] Yeah.

Chris [00:25:10] That this guy was a petty, narcissistic piece of shit who doesn’t even know how to wash his own dick and kept giving you yeast infections. And if he hears it someday, that’s my opinion of him as a human. And he can fuck off.

Caller [00:25:32] Tip for guys out there. I think it was the leftover soap. I think he didn’t read the soap out enough.

Chris [00:25:39] This guy can’t even wash his own dick and he’s sitting here telling you- he doesn’t even know how to wash his dick and he’s sitting here telling you how to live your life. Learn how to clean your own dick. And then then then maybe you can offer any one else criticism on how they’re doing.

Caller [00:25:58] I love this so much.

Chris [00:26:00] I’m here for you. But I do I do have a particular- and look, I’ve been in. I’ll say this too. Happily married. Eight years. I had a lot of other type of relationships. I had I had a relationship that was on and off with the same person for for eight years, dating, before I met my wife. And there were stretches of that that were extraordinarily healthy and stretches that weren’t. I had relationships that were very short, that were fine. I had relationships I messed up and I had some relationships that were unhealthy. But I don’t think I had any that were based on trying to dominate and trying to make it all about, let me tell you everything you’re doing wrong. I really don’t think so. But I can say that I mean, I’ve met other people with stories like yours, and I’ve seen these guys and they’re always, and I don’t know if if this will ring true to you, from the outside looking in, you go, Oh… I’ve seen this type of relationship where you go, Oh, this is a guy who uses his own relationship to feel big, because to everybody out here, like me looking from the outside in, this motherfucker’s so small. And he sounds like that exact type of person. Sounds like the type of person that’s like, if a dog barks at me, I bark back. And it’s like, No. You’d like to think you’re the type of guy who barks back. But what you do is you fall down and you skin your knee and cry about it. And you know that’s who you really are on the inside. And that’s why you have to be mean to your girlfriend.

Caller [00:27:33] I want to clarify something. The one thing that it took me until well after my relationship was over to articulate that it was abusive, because one thing that took me a while to realize is abuse is not, like, intentional. Like, abuse is, like, unintentional just because a person has so much shame and pain within themselves and trauma that they won’t deal with in a healthy way that it has no… Like when you don’t empty your cup, it overflows into someone else’s. It’s like if you, you know, like his dad was really, really abusive and he never dealt with that in a healthy way. So then now he was abusive to me. And he wasn’t- he was like this- he’s a nerd. He’s a nerd. Like, he was like a little nerd. Like, when he did hit me, it was like always- again, always with the plausible deniability. He would it would usually what it would be it to be having a nightmare in his sleep. And so I would like I think that happened like twice. And then I learned to not do that anymore. But I would like try to gently wake him up from his nightmare and then he would just slap the shit out of me. But it would be so much that, you know, if he like, slapped me briefly, like waking up from a nightmare, that would be something I would understand because that that’s like obviously not on purpose. But it would go on for like 30, 40 seconds, like, okay, you’re definitely awake. You’re definitely not sleepwalking right now. You’re definitely hitting me. And again, it’s- but then the next morning he would-.

Chris [00:29:20] Did you say 30 or 40 minutes?

Caller [00:29:24] I’m sorry. Seconds. Not minutes. Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh. That would be a lot. 30, 40 minutes.

Chris [00:29:30] No, no, no, no. 30, 40 seconds is a lot.

Caller [00:29:34] Slapping my arm. And then the next morning, I’d be like, hey, like, I know that it wasn’t… I know, like, you were, like, kind of asleep, but can we just, like, talk about, like, do you remember that? And he would be like, do you realize what you’re accusing me of? And I’d be like… I mean, yeah, like I’m not- I don’t know. It was just like, yeah, like, you kind of slapped the shit out of me last night. Like, can we talk about it maybe? Um.

Chris [00:30:06] Well, at- Sorry finish the thought. Finish the thought.

Caller [00:30:11] Oh, no, no. Uh, I was just thinking it’s interesting how a lot of people draw the line at hitting. That’s like the point where people get, like, all up in arms. But the hitting is, like, the least of my problems. Like, I didn’t care about that.

Chris [00:30:32] I think, too, it’s like now we’re starting to talk about semantics and it’s starting to connect back. I imagine some of this thing where you say there’s people in your life who said, Well, you have to take responsibility for your end, too. And you sit here and you go, yeah, yeah. And people might go, Well, can you really throw the word abuse around? He wasn’t really hitting you. Well, he did. Well, he was having nightmares and woke up and this and that. And he’s a good guy and he’s real fucked up and he’s real troubled on his own. Here’s the thing. And again, I was going hard at him before, and I’ll say this: he’s allowed to be fucked up too. He’s allowed to have a shitty dad. I’m cursing so much in this one. But stories like this, if you’ve listened to the show for a while, you know stories like this always send me into a rage. They send me into a rage. It’s like he’s allowed to have a real bad dad. He’s allowed to have been through a lot. He’s allowed to have had it it damage him. He’s even allowed to have it boil over in ways that he can’t control. But if we’re going to take all of that and start getting into a semantic debate about, well, is that really abuse? And are you going to take your responsibility? It’s like if we start debating word choices, that’s not what matters. If you want to go, maybe it wasn’t abuse. It was just you guys mixed together was extraordinarily unhealthy. Well, okay, then it was an extraordinarily unhealthy thing that sounded like it was, on its best day, mentally exhausting and way more often than that, somewhat dangerous for you. At the very least, for your self-esteem. And at other times, it’s a person screaming in your face, hitting you, screaming while you’re driving. Like this is unpleasant to think about. These are images that sound unsafe. That feel unsafe when you picture them in your brain. So… It’s like…

Caller [00:32:18] Yeah. Yeah.

Chris [00:32:20] Yeah, respond. Go for it. Because you see what I’m saying? I’m like, I don’t care about this semantic debate. And and look, I was going hard before, this guy’s a piece of shit. And I think all that’s true. But it also is, if all those things are true about him, he’s allowed to be as messed up as he is. But if he’s not dealing with it and it’s rolling downhill to you, that is ultimately his responsibility to try to be the one to break the cycle. And I don’t really care about a semantic debate. It’s a situation that you need desperately to get out of. Call it what you want. Who cares about the debate surrounding it?

Caller [00:32:52] Yeah. The, the semantic argument is one I’ve actually gotten so extremely hung up on. Um, so you were mentioning like my college experience is, it’s actually pretty, uh, poopy the way I think a lot of my friends have treated me after the fact.

Chris [00:33:15] Did you say poopy? After all the cursing I’ve done, screaming the F word as loud as I can. You just got to go ahead and say poopy? Okay. Okay. That’s fine.

Caller [00:33:26] Yeah. It’s been a pretty silly.

Chris [00:33:34] I look like such. I look like such a potty mouth for yelling. Poopy. It’s silly. I’m kidding. Continue.

Caller [00:33:46] Uh, I. I haven’t always been… So I got into this relationship, right? And then I tried to do the whole like, you know, we were in this friend group. Like all of our friends are sort of intertwined. And I tried to do the cordial thing for a while. But then as I started to, you know, I, I’ve been in therapy for like a long time and it’s been really, really helpful. Um, never- my therapist is such a boomer. Like, I met him and was like, I’m going to have to change therapists. But, no, like, he’s awesome. He’s the best therapist I’ve ever had. We’re such different people, but I think that’s what I need is like a person who’s very different from me. Um, he’s just this, like, southern boomer dude. Um. Oh, and then one quick thing I want to say. If anybody if anybody listening is dealing with something, Dr. Ramani, on YouTube, R-A-M-A-N-I, has been equally life changing to me as therapy. Like, she’s amazing. But I- a lot of my friends from college are the kind of people that post all the time. They say, believe women, you know, listen to women, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I, you know, I talked to, you know, I think this, you know, my ex who is like one of your best friends was extremely abusive to me. And they kind of like engage with that conversation and like, I’ve had so many conversations where I cry, you know, to somebody and they cry back, and then they just don’t change anything about it. Like they just keep hanging out with the guy and they always say, like, he needs friends around to hold him accountable. And I’m like, How are you holding him accountable? I know what you guys talk about. You guys aren’t talking about, like, deep stuff. Like, you guys, don’t- I just know they’re not. I had this one friend, she was always saying, you know, I would beat up any abuser. Like, just know, like any abuser I would beat up. And it’s like, okay, like, that’s great. Why don’t you just start by not being friends with them? That’s a great start. And then you can think about beating them up later.

Chris [00:36:17] Let’s pause right there. And for any of my young people listening, I want you to know this is all rooted in the fact that I really believe in the power of youth. And I hope this is an eye opening thing of when you merge those new values and ethics that young generation’s come up with with lived experience, that’s when we really start to make forward momentum. Anyway, I’ll stop being an armchair philosopher. We’ll take a break and be right back. Thanks again to all of our advertisers. Now we’re going to finish off the phone call.

Caller [00:36:51] Why don’t you just start by not being friends with them? That’s a great start. And then you can think about beating them up later. Uh, but the way I haven’t, and this has all made me very angry. It’s infuriating to see my friends’ posts, believe women, you know, listen to women, and then they’re like, they’re just constantly posting about hanging out with my abuser and like… I don’t know. It’s just very frustrating. The way I’ve handled it hasn’t always been the most graceful, I will say. But I also think I just got to give myself a little bit of grace because everybody makes mistakes and that’s okay.

Chris [00:37:37] Yeah, I’ll say a couple of things in response if I can, because that’s all very real. And I’m sure there’s times where you have felt, you know, you remove yourself from a situation that’s unhealthy, and then things like this make you feel very alone in it. When you when you have the friends who are the ones posting, believe all women, who don’t believe you, I have to imagine that’s extraordinarily lonely. And loneliness is usually a feeling that is a companion to even worse stuff. Right?

Caller [00:38:10] Yeah. It’s been tough, but I’m… I’m really lucky because, um… I’m, like, pretty good at making friends. Um. So. I’ve been seeing this whole year is like sort of a starting over. And I’ve been leaning into like acquaintanceships, if that’s a word, that like I never would have if I didn’t have all these vacancies from like friends, people who I no longer consider my friends. Um, and I guess I’m sort of realizing that like my old friend group is, at least for me, very toxic. So. Like it’s it’s welcome to leave them and start talking to, like, new people and becoming closer with them.

Chris [00:39:09] It’s. I want to be very respectful of how I phrased the following, because I don’t want to betray something I’ve often said on the show, which is I think people give young generations too much shit.

Caller [00:39:27] Yeah.

Chris [00:39:27] Well, I think it’s easy to say, Oh, millennials and Gen Z are soft, right? Like that’s the dialogue. They’re being raised soft. It’s like, eh, what are you talking about?

Caller [00:39:37] Yeah.

Chris [00:39:38] No, let’s stop that. Like, I think we roll our eyes at younger generations too much. I think that… I think it’s very easy to be dismissive of of younger people. And it’s- I don’t understand the impulse because younger generations are correct like 90% of the time when it comes to any social thing. But what I will say is, you brought up something that jumps out at me, which is this idea that, you know, you have the people out there, I would I would beat up any- if I ever heard about an abuser, I’d beat him up. You sit here and you go, oh, life is ultimately a collection of lived experiences, right? And sometimes I think when people are still in the younger stretch of their life, when they’ve just gotten out of high school, starting college, like now, I’m old enough to see that as youthful in a pretty big way. And you go, Oh, those those are the those are the tough words of someone who hasn’t lived the experience. And you hope that now that someone’s living the experience, they’ll learn it’s not about talking the talk, it’s about walking the walk. And that in real life, walking the walk is not, I’m going to I’m going to grab a bat and go beat the hell out of any abuser. It’s like, no, you’re going to run into situations in life where you got to be there for a friend or where you got to draw some lines in the sand and go… Right? It’s much more layered because I’m sure there are some people that are just sitting here going, he’s not an abuser. And then you see them posting photos together on Instagram and you’re like, What’s up? I’m sure there are other people going, Yeah, your relationship did look really dark and warped from the outside, and it seems like you got put through the worst of it. But I feel like he needs a lot of help and I want to be the type of person who will try to help him so this doesn’t happen again. And you go, now that’s more layered and more real and more of the kinds of tough choices that you have to make in real life as you live experience. So it also.

Caller [00:41:39] Exactly.

Chris [00:41:40] It does sound like you have a lot of friends where you go, it’s it is it is noble to voice what you would do in a situation. But until you’ve been in it, you don’t really know. And that’s a very eye opening thing.

Caller [00:41:54] Yeah.

Chris [00:41:55] And it stinks. It stinks for you to have to be what sounds like the unfortunately kind of the scientific control by which a lot of your friend group maybe learned that. Of like you can talk all you want. Until it happens, you don’t really know what you’re going to do. And you got to hope your moral compass is good enough to guide you in a way you’ll feel good about when you sleep, when you try to lay down and go to sleep at night. That’s real life, you know?

Caller [00:42:23] And I think a lot of my friends, the vibe I get… So after we broke up, like, a few months later, after I started to realize, like, oh, this was like a seriously abusive relationship for a long time, I started to tell my friends like, Hey, you know, if you’re inviting (BLEEP) over to your place, just don’t invite me. I don’t want to go. I don’t want to be in the same room.

Chris [00:42:51] Pause one second. I just want to flag for. It’s totally fine.

Caller [00:42:54] Oh, I said the name.

Chris [00:42:55] I’ll bleep it. Right around 22 minutes. I’m going to make sure we flag that. Make sure our editors, because we are not looking to get you in any trouble. So we’ll flag that. We’ll bleep that.

Caller [00:43:05] Sorry.

Chris [00:43:05] Don’t worry about it.

Caller [00:43:09] Yeah. I told my friends, like, if you invite him, just don’t invite me. I don’t want to be in the same room as him. And then it slowly became like, I just stopped getting invited because they would always invite him, which was like… Really, really tough. Because it was like, oh, like, oh, I, I, I sort of made this bed where I’ve like, given people the go to hang out with my abuser. And I don’t know, it’s just tricky. But it also opened my eyes because I was like, Oh, okay, I just won’t be friends with these people.

Chris [00:43:51] Yes. Yes.

Caller [00:43:52] But also the vibe I get is that they think that I’m exaggerating because they think- this is the vibe I get. I haven’t talked to them. I’ve had too many sobbing conversations in which I reiterate my experience to people. I’m done doing that. And it’s very frustrating because people always say, I don’t expect you to to reiterate, you know, what happened to you. And it’s like, okay, but if I don’t, you just inherently don’t believe me. I think a lot of people think my use of the word abuse is like extremely exaggeratory in that I am trying to deflect accountability for what was like equally toxic between us. But the people closest to me have been like, yeah, they could say like you did like one or two things, but like, like what you did does not hold, like, like it just does not even closely measure to what he did to you. But the friends that are… It was interesting you were talking about like the semantic of the word abuse, because that’s one thing I run into a lot is a lot of people thinking that my use of the word abuse is like very exaggeratory or that my I’m like making up the experience in my head. I dont know.

Chris [00:45:19] And of course, I think this happens.

Caller [00:45:20] Or that I’m a pussy.

Chris [00:45:23] Or you’re being harsh on him or you’re not considering his side of the coin or whatever it is. They can come up with all the reasons they want. It’s you’re allowed to use that word and it should be taken very seriously when it’s used. And if they decide that you’re being- if they decide you’re exaggerating or being histrionic, then then let them go and choose. And let them make that choice. And and like you said, I understand that’s no friend of yours anyway. But here’s another thing that, if I may, that it sounds like I’m able to think of as this outside observer, but that I, I, it sounds like maybe, maybe it is a thought you’ve had… But it’s something I’m wondering because I understand- I, as you explain it, I’m like, I can see this idea that friends aren’t listening to you and it makes you want to rip your hair out and you feel like some of it is that they’re judging your story, the validity of it, the severity of it. But we’re also talking about a guy who for six years managed to stop you from dressing how you wanted, managed to make you have a dialogue in your head that you were awful. To the degree we would-

Caller [00:46:32] He also had me um- oh sorry- he also had me convinced that I was dreamily awkward and like a little social terrorist. I’m actually like, I’m actually confident saying that like these days, like, I’m a rather charismatic person. Like, like people tend to like me. But like back then I was so socially squeamish and like he would like, yell at me after parties and be like, Why did you say that thing? That was awful. You made everybody hate you. And that was a very isolating thing because he had me convinced that, like, none of my friends would like me if it weren’t for him. Like, he’s the reason anybody talks to me because I’m such a burden.

Chris [00:47:18] Yeah. You’re so lucky he’s- yeah. I hear what you’re- again, such a gr- it makes me squeamish to hear. You’re so lucky to have him around, because without him, you’d be this outcast on the fringe of society, unable to communicate. And now you’re out of it. And it’s untrue. But keep in mind, he was able to create that environment and keep you within it for six years. So there’s also a chance here this is someone who clearly- because look, if any of your friends perceived it the way you’re saying it to me right now, as you’ve laid it out over the past 45 minutes, none of them would be arguing. They’d be going- at worst, they’d be going, I don’t know if that’s abuse, but it’s real fucked up. Like that they’d at least be saying that, you know?

Caller [00:48:04] Yeah. Yeah.

Chris [00:48:04] So there’s something to be said for this person is very masterful at manipulation. And some of these friends who are cutting you out, it’s probably fair to say, I have to imagine this guy can- as many of these people can be, can also be a hell of a charmer in the right situation. Also knows how to be the life of the party when they want it to be. That there’s people would be shocked to hear that he has said a lot of the stuff to you. That doesn’t just extend to romantic relationships. He might be playing these people, too. And in my experience, again, as a guy who’s now I mean, it’s so funny. I’ve been through phases of my life doing this show over these years where now I’m in my forties and I’m a dad. Like I am demonstrably of an older lifestyle than you. But I go, I know versions of this and what happens is this There’s going to be friends you lose and it’s going to suck. And it’s going to drive you nuts now. And here’s what’s going to happen. Either he’s going to get help and shape up and he’s going to own it and apologize in some fashion. Or that’s never going to happen. His life’s going to get darker and weirder, and he’s going to- there’s going to be a pattern of people just going, I need to get away from this person because this this is warped. It’s twisted. And I don’t like being in it. And sadly, years down the line, you will then start hearing from people who go, Hey, I wish I had listened to you harder because I actually just had a falling out with this guy. Or like I got some distance from him and realized actually there’s some really twisted stuff happening. And that is kind of the sad reality of it. You’re not the only person he’s able to manipulate. If he could do it to you, he can probably reframe the conversation for a lot of these friends. And he probably has. He’s trying to dodge responsibility or he’s enough of a narcissist to convince them that his truth is the only truth. And they’re buying into it, too. And they’re hearing his side of the story and going, Maybe she is being histrionic and crazy, but he’s manipulating everybody. It’s who he is.

Caller [00:50:00] He’s what I would call him a vulnerable narcissist.

Chris [00:50:06] Sure.

Caller [00:50:07] His main manipulation tactic is pity and telling people he’s he’s changed and getting people to feel bad for him. That was like his main tactic. And then he’s like this fun, yeah, he’s he’s a fun guy. He’s like kind of the life of the party. But his main thing is Ramani, in her videos, she used this example. And I was like, this example is like exactly what happened to me. Is he stands alone by himself at parties and he waits for like a nice person to come up to him and just be like their nice self, and then he, like, exploits their niceness to get them to feel bad for him. And then he goes on manipulating from there. And I would stay with my friend group. If I get any apologies, I’ll be really lucky. I really don’t expect to hear any apologies. Although I think he will abuse his next girlfriend. That’s the that’s the big that’s the rub of this whole thing is like, he will abuse his next girlfriend. He’ll do it very slowly, like the frog in the boiling water or whatever. He’ll he’ll be very careful about which girl he chooses. It’ll be somebody rather younger than him who is new to Los Angeles. I don’t know if I’m allowed to say where I live.

Chris [00:51:29] Sure. That’s a big enough metropolitan area. It’s not like he says Sheboygan.

Caller [00:51:34] Yeah.

Chris [00:51:35] Los Angeles. That’s fair game.

Caller [00:51:36] Yeah. It’ll be somebody new to the city who doesn’t really know that many people. And, uh, he’ll start with her. She’ll be a little bit younger than him, and she’ll be really nice and really insecure. That’s- this is my prediction. If I had to guess. And then he’ll slowly abuse her over time. He’ll take longer than he did with me. So, like, whereas he started doing the, like, twirpy little stupid hitting stuff after like five years, he’ll start after like ten years, I think, with the next person.

Chris [00:52:13] Or maybe two. You never know.

Caller [00:52:16] Yeah, maybe. We’ll see. His ex, he would apparently punch the pillow by her head.

Chris [00:52:22] Yeah, see, this is a pattern.

Caller [00:52:24] It’s a pattern.

Chris [00:52:25] I only hit you because I was having a nightmare. Like, dude, if you’re listening to this someday, that’s how I hear you. I didn’t hit you. I was having a nightmare. That’s how you sound to me. You gave me the wrong kind of Band-Aid. That’s how you sound to me, dude. You know? And I shouldn’t just make fun of him, but I want you to know I’m on your side. But that is because that- and that is why he has to behave that way on the inside, because that’s how he knows he’s perceived on the outside. You know? And you know what I also want to say too, because this one flying by and we got less than 12 minutes left, what you just broke down of he’s going to find somebody younger than him. Probably somebody who’s new to the area. Probably somebody who doesn’t have, like a social support system in that area. He’s going to get to them first and be the foundation for all this stuff you’re laying out… There are probably so many people listening right now going, Whoa, I know I’m not in this, like I’m not in or like the thing I was in or the thing I am in… It’s not exactly the same, but it has some commonalities. And I bet that little stretch right there just made some people open their eyes real wide and go, Whoa! Because there are patterns to this stuff. Hearing, hearing that you found out that he used to punch the pillow next to his ex and he used to hit you when he would come out of a nightmare… It’s like, and then you describe him, too, and I remember, I remember- and I won’t lie. I remember being like, I’m so tortured. I’m tortured and awkward. Why doesn’t anybody understand me? I’m a comedic genius. And that was me back in the day. But that doesn’t mean that I punch a pillow next to somebody’s head. It means I’m like a a dramatic and insecure guy trying to find his place in the world. And it’s on me to go find it. It’s on me to go figure out how to make those things positive motivation, not things where you find somebody and isolate them so you can have a human punching bag to make you feel better that you are so tortured and dark and no one understands you. That story has been- that story- that’s the thing- and another thing, too, narcissists don’t understand… That story’s not that interesting. And it’s been told a million times over. And every college town’s got ten of those dudes.

Caller [00:54:45] He he would always, I would be like, you know, obviously very frustrated with his abuse. And I would be like, I really think you need to get into therapy and or like just talk to your friends. Like talk to somebody who isn’t me because it seems like you’re kind of using me as the only sort of emotional support in your life. Like, I think you need to like start talking, reaching out to your friends and being like, hey, can I please like use you as a sounding board for stuff like trauma? And he would always like, you don’t understand, like, guys don’t do that. Like, guys don’t talk to their friends like that. I’m like, okay, like, I, well, you have to. You have to talk to your friends because you’re abu- I didn’t articulate it like you’re abusing me. You have to figure something out, some sort of emotional outlet or because you’re destroying me. COVID was awful. Not that it’s over. But like when we were living together, it was so bad.

Chris [00:55:49] Well, look, it also might be part of the reason you broke up, right? There’s no escape, there’s no pressure release, and you start to go, we’re home together all the time now, and it’s becoming clear that this is what that is. I don’t even get to go out with friends a couple of nights a week or go take a drive or whatever. And I bet there I bet there might be a lot of people who go, it actually made me look- take an up close look at a broken relationship and get to a safer place. Maybe that’s one of the silver linings of this pandemic. I bet there’s other stories like that. Also, can I ask about another specific you brought up?

Caller [00:56:23] Oh, yes, please.

Chris [00:56:25] Because even as you’re saying it, you’re saying these things that are clear cut patterns. And I’m telling you, there are so many of us that know that story, that either witnessed it in friends or were that person. Or like I said, I remember being the young in college, oh, man, I’m misunderstood, this and I’m dark. Why doesn’t anybody get it? I had anger and all this stuff. And guess what I did? I got into therapy eventually. And I took pills.

Caller [00:56:51] Yeah.

Chris [00:56:51] And I started asking a doctor, like, Hey, I feel fucked up. Have you? And he’d go, Yeah, here’s some patterns that unfold. And I fixed it. Or continue to work to fix it, rather. But I also wanted to ask, you mentioned before that you guys used to drop acid together. And it’s funny that you said you felt like were in a cult because one thing that cult leaders historically have done is they will get people to do heavy drugs, both to do something taboo and illegal, where now we’re in it together and we have this thing where you subtly- at the minimal, subtly feel like, oh you could just out me as a person who does that, or let me get you to a place where your mind’s not totally right so that I can also further kind of be the one whispering in your ear and defining it as I disconnect you from reality a little further. I’m wondering if that was any element of it there.

Caller [00:57:50] Interesting. I have never thought about this before. So my my whole college friend group kind of did- I don’t want to say, like a lot of acid, but, like, probably more than most college friend groups. And I think a lot of the guys in my group would use acid as a sort of, like this is like when I use acid, I can cry and be emotional with my bro’s because I can’t do that without the drug. It’s almost like a replacement. Um, I think I, um. I think that insecurity is very galvanized by ego, and it’s really hard to be emotional and vulnerable with your friends when you’ve got like such an- your ego is sort of like protecting your insecurity. You can’t break down that wall. And like, drugs would be the only way that they could sort of like take down those layers of ego and just be, like vulnerable and open with the people around them.

Chris [00:59:01] Sure.

Caller [00:59:03] I don’t know if that makes sense.

Chris [00:59:04] And I want to say too, I believe, you know, I’ve read studies about how they’re starting to figure out ways to use MDMA or mushrooms in treatment. And I believe in that stuff. And I think that it’s true. What’s dangerous about that dialogue is it it does create what you just described, which is this is our therapy. And it’s like, no. There’s clinical trials being done with this. All of these things are being done with how are actual trained doctors merging treatments like this with actual trauma relief. Like we talked to someone on the show months ago. It might be years, who knows. They all blend together. You know, somebody who used ayahuasca to help other combat veterans kind of come to a peaceful place. And you go, right, right, right. There’s a lot of value in this, but you have to have a game plan and a thought. And and there are things that are therapeutic, but you can’t use them to replace therapy and you can’t pretend that, you know, all that stuff.

Caller [01:00:06] Exactly.

Chris [01:00:06] But that is very cult like behavior to say, why don’t we do some weird drugs? Or the other big one and I’m not prying- I’m not implying this is what happened, but another similar one, why don’t we sort of live like a kinky sexual life? And then when you try to remove yourself from the cult, the cult leader goes, Well, maybe your dad’ll get an email and I’ll tell him all the stuff you’ve done when it comes to drugs and sex and stuff. And you go, I don’t want that. I just gotta stay in it.

Caller [01:00:33] Oh my God.

Chris [01:00:34] You know, like, that type of stuff is classic cult leader.

Caller [01:00:40] Social blackmail is like such a thing in these relationships. He’d be like, Well, why don’t I just tell everybody about, like, this thing that you did this one time. And I would, like, freak out and be like, okay, I won’t. I won’t ask you for anything. Like, I would, like, ask him for a thing, like, to, like, not yell at me or something. And I’d be like, Well, the reason I yell at you is because you don’t understand if I don’t yell. One time he was like, like the I yell at you, it’s like the same way that people protest. Like, because until people are yelling, nobody understands or listens. I was like, this is an insane comparison. I didn’t say that at the time. But now I’m like, I can’t believe he compared him yelling at me to a Black Lives Matter protest. That’s bananas.

Chris [01:01:33] Well, I mean, the old school, right? The boomers had like the hippies who quiet, who secretly hit their wives. And for my generation, I think it was like, oh, the guys who really love Weezer, who are the most misogynistic people behind closed doors. The nerd who becomes the bully, you know? The sensitive, tortured artist who wants to claim that his own inner pathos is the actual human equivalent of the entire Black Lives Matter movement. He can actually justify that in his brain. It’s it’s saddening to hear and sadly not shocking to hear.

Caller [01:02:08] Yeah. Um, one thing I’ll say about the, the like, like if somebody wants to, like, be friends with, like, somebody who was or is an abuser and they want to be like the guy that holds them accountable, that person should be thinking about the victim as well and staying in touch with them and hearing their side of things and listening to their wants. Because you might be the guy who’s like, I’m going to hold this guy accountable. But while your intentions are good, your actions might actually be really misguided. Because like, like a lot of my friends, like, won’t do therapy because they- they haven’t said this out loud, but they think therapists are kind of dumb. But it’s like if you’re, I don’t know. There’s there’s the shame/ rage spiral. So narcissists aren’t incapable of shame. They aren’t incapable of empathy, they aren’t incapable of feeling guilt. But their guilt isn’t really productive. So like they they feel bad about a thing. One thing that my ex would always do is he would feel guilty about the way he treated me so he’d reach out or he’d, like, show up to an event at the same time as me to, like, try and, like, have a little heart to heart with me. And that was just, like, not what I wanted at all. And it’s like the actions you’re taking in order to assuage your guilt are actively making me, your victim who are you’re trying to make feel better, you’re making me feel so much worse. That was a tangent. I guess what I’m trying to say is like the guys who, like, try so hard to hold people accountable, often like do so in a really misguided way because they’re, again, they’re not listening to women. They’re not listening to victims. And what they want. They’re just doing what they think is right because they made up the right thing in their own head.

Chris [01:04:18] And they’re hoping against hope that they haven’t really mischaracterized this person so severely and that they weren’t smart enough to see it and they’re hoping they haven’t bet on the wrong horse to the degree that this would imply that they have. And again, it’s one of the things that I’ll say sadly is a lived experience and I, I, I.

Caller [01:04:41] Yes.

Chris [01:04:41] I bet you are going to find out either through some conversations that are- and people- and this might be in 15 years, you might have a heart to heart with some of these people right now going, Yeah, I thought I could save that guy, but holy shit, I, he was actually just using that as a smokescreen to not change. That might happen 15 years from now. And our time is up. I want to say first of all, thank you for trusting me with all this. I hope that.

Caller [01:05:10] Yeah. I’m glad I got to talk about this.

Chris [01:05:13] And I want to say both to you and anyone listening, at any moments where I put my foot in my mouth, said the wrong thing, I do apologize. I’ve been here hoping that, that you can lean on me and trust that I got good intentions in hearing you out. And I also just want to say this in closing… For our listeners, we’re going to bleep it. But I’ll also say you did slip up and say this person’s first name at one point, and just in case.

Caller [01:05:43] Uh last name.

Chris [01:05:45] Last name? But is that and that’s how people refer? I’ll just say.

Caller [01:05:49] That’s their nickname for him.

Chris [01:05:50] I will say, if this is the name people greet- if this person walks into a room and that’s the name that people say… Cartoonishly douchey. That’s a cartoonishly douchey name for an abuser to have.

Caller [01:06:06] That’s hilarious.

Chris [01:06:06] And I think you can probably see that now with a year and a half, with a year and a half of distance, I hope you can see that too.

Caller [01:06:16] Yeah.

Chris [01:06:17] I sincerely thank you for trusting me. And what you went through was not easy. And thank you for breaking it down. If people want to go debate the semantics, screw them. But what I will say is, whatever you want to call it, I bet there are a lot of people who heard reflections of what they’re dealing with right now in what you just said. I think you maybe helped a lot of people not have to spend six years before they figure it out. I think you may have just flattened the learning curve a little bit for a lot of people out there and maybe helped them see that they are in situations they need to remove themselves from. So thank you for doing that. It’s not easy.

Caller [01:06:54] That was my goal. Um. Can I say, like, one last thing? Or.

Chris [01:06:59] Of course. Of course.

Caller [01:07:01] Yeah. A mistake is not abuse. A one time thing is not abuse. So if you’ve made a mistake, don’t take that single mistake and say, am I the abuser? No. Abuse is a habitual pattern of behaviors that lasts a long time. That’s all I want to say.

Chris [01:07:22] And it sounds like this-

Caller [01:07:23] You’ve been great. Yeah.

Chris [01:07:27] That’s awfully nice of you to say. And I’ll just also say too, you sound like a smart person and a together person and an aware person and a person who’s thought a lot about it. And I’ll just say on my end, Listen, I don’t even know your name. We’ve only been talking for an hour. You don’t sound like somebody who’s just throwing words out there because they’re coming into your head for the first time right now. It sounds like you’ve done a lot of soul searching to get to that conclusion and. On my end, it makes it very easy to believe you.

Caller [01:07:58] Yeah. And it’s, in my experience, pretty dangerous to talk about this publicly, which is why I think this platform is so perfect.

Chris [01:08:08] Well, that’s heartbreaking to hear. I hope that changes over time. I hope that we all shift that taboo and figure out better ways to help each other. And I think you have done your part because I bet there’s people out there who are going to nod their heads and go, oh, she’s putting words to some things that I felt crazy thinking. And and you did good. You did really, really good.

Caller [01:08:36] Thank you so much.

Chris [01:08:40] Caller, thank you so much. Sincerely. I know i said it a few times. I think you helped a lot of people. Also want to go ahead in the outro and say this. One person who we didn’t have enough time to talk to you, thanks to your sister. I wish I had more time to talk. I mean, we, we, you and I, that flew by. We had so much to say. But also thanks to the family member who steps in and says, something’s really wrong here, something’s really warped. You’re not acting like yourself. Thanks to your sister who stepped into a situation and said, I’m not going to be polite about this. I’m going to disrupt the algorithm that’s feeding this, because something’s up. Thank you to Anita Flores for producing the show. Thank you to Ryan Connor for engineering. Thank you to ShellShag for providing our theme music. Support ShellShag everybody. Go to ChrisGeth.com if you want to know more about me, including my life, touring dates, Beautiful/ Anonymous tapings, stand up dates. And hey, wherever you’re listening, there’s a button that says subscribe, favorite, follow, something like that. When you hit that button, it helps us so much. And if you want merch, podswag.com is your friend. We got mugs, shirts and posters and more. And if you want all your episodes without any ads, check out Stitcher Premium. If you use the code “stories”, you get a one month free trial at Stitcher.com/premium.