EP. 365 — Ugly Custody Battle

Chris [00:00:04] Hello to everybody who does not want this confused with some red pill men’s rights stuff. It’s Beautiful Anonymous. It’s one hour. One phone call. No names. No holds barred. Hi everybody, Chris Gethard here. Welcome to another episode of Beautiful Anonymous. My name is Chris Gethard, and as always, I feel incredibly lucky to be your host on this show. And you guys have always been so supportive of my pursuits out of this. I have to give a huge, heartfelt thanks to everybody who came out to see me tape my new show, A Father and the Sun at Audible Theater at Minetta Lane. I have to thank everybody who’s been checking out my new book, The Lonely Dad Conversations. You know, we dropped a chapter of that, a little sample over there in the feed last week. And I also just have to remind everybody that Beautiful Cononymous is coming. It’s in Brooklyn, May 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th. We opened up some more full festival passes. Those sold out really quick, so we opened up like 50 more. I think there’s still about 40 available. And if you go to a BeautifulCononymous.com, I want you to check out- I mean, you can see there’s comedy, there’s live tapings, music, dance parties, all sorts of stuff. And I also want to say, if you’re only going to come to one event, there’s the Love is Everywhere waffle brunch. You can buy a ticket to that right now. And it’s going to be an emotional and joyous celebration. We’re going to have live calls happening and we’re all going to eat waffles. It’s going to be delicious. This week’s episode, we talk to a dad who’s dealing with one of the most tense and thorny situations you can find in this life. It’s a custody battle. And you can hear there’s emotion here. This caller does his best to be fair and restrained and levelheaded. But obviously, there’s emotion underneath there. There’s things he’s going to explain that I think some people out there are gonna have very strong opinions on. And I think people are probably going to have their own opinions on the American court system and the American custody system and how these things go. It’s an intense one. And I’ll just ask as always, the reason this community is so beautiful to me is because we don’t fall into the trap of just knee jerk, reactionary name calling. So your reactions, get emotional and express those emotions, but be a human being about it. Don’t feed those awful algorithms. Let’s have a conversation. I’ll see you in the Facebook group. Thanks, everybody. 

Voicemail Robot [00:02:39] Thank you for calling. Beautiful Anonymous. A beeping noise will indicate when you are on the show with the host. 

Caller [00:02:46] Hello? 

Chris [00:02:48] Hi. 

Caller [00:02:49] Hey. Is this Chris?  

Chris [00:02:50] This is Chris. 

Caller [00:02:52] Holy shit. No way. Wow. How are you? 

Chris [00:02:56] I’m doing really well today. I got a full night’s sleep, so that’s good. It’s been a while. 

Caller [00:03:01] Great. Great, Great. 

Chris [00:03:02] Yeah. How are you? 

Caller [00:03:04] I’m doing all right. I’m excited that I got through. It’s uh I’ve tried a couple of times, and I’m excited I got through. 

Chris [00:03:10] I’m also excited you got through. I think it’s pretty cool stuff. 

Caller [00:03:14] It is. It’s a little nervous, but, you know, I think we’ll get through it.  

Chris [00:03:18] Yeah, we’ll be totally fine, I promise. 

Caller [00:03:22] Oh, wow. Awesome. So we got. I got stuff I can talk about. I, I have a unique perspective on a custody battle. I don’t know that I’ve heard much from the male perspective on your show about going through a custody battle. Um, so that’s probably my my biggest topic I can give you a lot of info on. 

Chris [00:03:47] Wow. I mean, that that sounds difficult. I’m sorry you’re going through that. 

Caller [00:03:51] Yeah, I worked through the bulk of it, but, you know, there’s always going back to court. There’s always something that will come up through the nature of the high, the high conflict nature of the relationship. 

Chris [00:04:05] Okay. Okay, So, yeah, fill me in. What do I need to know about custody battles? 

Caller [00:04:13] Sure. So my kid’s mother and I decided to have a child together. And then we realized before he was born that we weren’t going to work out. But we decided to stay together through his formative years to raise him- to cohabitate and co-parent, to raise him in the same home. And that was…. you know, moderately successful if I ignored all the red flags like I did. And she decided that it was time to move across the country when he was six months old. And I didn’t really have- I did want to move, but not that far and leave cross country when he was six months old, away from my family and my resources, and I moved to a place where I had no job. She had a job. And we cohabitating for another four years, successfully, unsuccessfully, I don’t know at this point. And so that’s how that worked. 

Chris [00:05:12] So just to be clear, when you say cohabitate, you lived together for pretty much five years after your kid was born, even though you had decided before the birth, we’re not going to wind up together. 

Caller [00:05:25] Yes, we knew we weren’t going to be in a romantic relationship together before he was born, so we lived in the same home for, yeah, just about five years, and raised him together um pretty much successfully. And then when she decided to buy her second home, we decided that it was time for us to not live under the same roof. And that’s when it started to get- we decided we agreed mutually agreed on a 50/50 custody schedule. And I went I moved into an apartment and she moved into her second home. And it worked out relatively well for many years until I met my now wife, four and a half years after we lived apart. When he was he was four and a half when I moved into the apartment, and then I started- I met my wife. Four years. Been a while. I thought about this. We lived apart for four and a half years when I started dating my now wife. And when my now wife and I signed a lease on a house, my child’s- my kid’s mother filed for full custody and decision making, claiming that I’m an unfit parent. 

Chris [00:06:42] Wow. That’s real life. 

Caller [00:06:45] Not only not only did she claim that I was unfit parent, her reasoning behind that was due to a medical condition that I am no longer and that is in remission and was not an issue at the time she filed her claim that I have- that- so I have a medical condition called cluster headaches, which is in remission. She was well aware of it. The best possible treatment that works for most of us is psylocybin. So she used my medical condition and the way that I treated them against me in court to take custody of my son. 

Chris [00:07:26] When you say and the way you treated them, what does that mean? 

Caller [00:07:30] So the best treatment for cluster headaches, which is a very lesser known type of headache, and headache is a misnomer, but we can get into that. So the best treatment for them is psylocybin mushrooms. 

Chris [00:07:44] Oh, psilocybin. Oh, okay. I thought you said suicide. I thought you were saying the best treatment is- I though you said suicide as in like, you know, high suicide rate. That’s what I heard. 

Caller [00:07:57] Sorry, no. The the these cluster headaches are also known as suicide headaches. 

Chris [00:08:03] Right. 

Caller [00:08:03] Due to the severity of the headache, it is one of the most painful conditions known to modern medicine. 

Chris [00:08:08] I’ve read about it. I’m sorry you deal with that. That’s brutal. Brutal. 

Caller [00:08:12] Yes. So I had I had chronic cluster headaches for seven years before I discovered the use of psilocybin. And then my kids mother was well aware of what the treatment was. She was on board with the treatment. She wanted me to use the treatment. She encouraged me to grow my own in her house, you know, and turned around and used it- tried to use that against me in court. 

Chris [00:08:35] Wow. 

Caller [00:08:36] Fortunately, she didn’t get anywhere with it. 

Chris [00:08:38] And just so I’m clear, because, you know, with mushrooms, psilocybin, there are a lot of clinical trials being done, a lot of research with that and MDMA, especially in terms of PTSD with soldiers. But it sounds like you weren’t part of a clinical trial. It sounds like, you know, in a in a way that does happen in this world, you start to read, you know, people are starting to report that this is helping. And some people are in a position where they go, I can’t wait five or ten years for you to be done with the clinical trials. I have to go try it now. It sounds like you were doing it off the grid, not under a doctor’s care, correct? 

Caller [00:09:19] Absolutely. My neurologist was aware and on board with my treatment, but obviously he can’t prescribe it. And I have no problem telling anybody that talks to me about this, if it was not for finding psilocybin to treat these headaches, I would have killed myself in 2005.  

Chris [00:09:40] It’s a very sobering thought to have a rare headache condition that a lot of people do take their own lives from. I mean, that’s that could be its own hour if it wasn’t superseded by everything else. And guess what? We might talk about it a little more later on. Who knows? First, we’ve got some ads. Check them out. We’ll be right back. Thanks to all the advertisers who help this show happen. Now, let’s get back to the phone call. 

Caller [00:10:11] If it was not for finding psilocybin to treat these headaches, I would have killed myself in 2005. 

Chris [00:10:18] Uh huh. 

Caller [00:10:19] So I would not be here to have my son and to have gone through all this custody battle if it was not for the treatment. 

Chris [00:10:26] So your ex basically said, I’m concerned he’s on drugs. He shouldn’t be around the child. You view that as, Hey, you were not only aware of that, but you are in fact, helping to facilitate it. This is very clear that you are not thrilled that I got together with someone else after all these years. 

Caller [00:10:48] Absolutely. What it comes down to is control. And for the time that I was not dating anybody, she really was able to have all the say in everything that our son does because I’m pretty passive. And I’m path of least resistance. And I didn’t really put up a fight. And if she had to drop him off early with me because she had to go out or whatever, I didn’t have much of a social life before I started dating my wife, and I was able to accommodate that. But when all of a sudden I wasn’t able to accommodate that, it became a problem. 

Chris [00:11:26] Wow. 

Caller [00:11:28] So to use my medical condition against me is like, you know, that was one of those things where you never thought somebody would do that. 

Chris [00:11:37] Yeah. 

Caller [00:11:38] And to find out during this whole- in the beginning of this court process, I was on my way to pick up my son for my parenting time, and I got a call frantic from him saying, Something’s wrong with Mommy. And I pull up to the house and he lets me in. And she had had a seizure and she was unconscious on her on her bed, on the couch, aspirating on her vomit when I walked in. And I saved her life. And we called 911. And she was hiding a medical condition of her own from me while she was trying to use mine against me. Like it’s asinine. 

Chris [00:12:22] Wow. I want to say a couple things upfront, which is one, everything I’ve ever claimed to do with this show is just provide a platform. And I’ve said many times on many calls, you know, I’m hearing your side of the story. And I’m certain obviously in anything as tense as a custody battle, you know, the other party could call up someday and say, and here’s the other side of the story. Now, I don’t anticipate that happening. We don’t seek it out. But I do just want to be clear about that. 

Caller [00:12:55] Oh, yeah. 

Chris [00:12:56] I’m glad we’re on the same page. 

Caller [00:12:58] I am. I absolutely understand that there is an entire different side to this story. But what comes down to is what’s provable in any and either side of the story. 

Chris [00:13:09] I believe you mentioned that things have worked out and reached their conclusion and that you you do have shared custody again?

Caller [00:13:18] Yes. So. So the result of her medical condition, you know, I we asked for documentation to make sure that my son was safe with her because I didn’t know she was having these this medical condition. And she didn’t provide any information about it through her attorneys or anything. So we ended up having to file for a temporary restraining order. And I was awarded full custody of my son temporarily until she was willing to provide information from her doctor, saying that she was under under the care of a doctor and her and her condition was under control. During that time where I had full custody and decision making, I was able to get my son into a therapist to start him in therapy. And he has consistently been in therapy since that. So he at least has a therapist. We have gone through our- we have our final orders. However, she was awarded medical decision making final say in medical decision making, which means we have to discuss it. But if I don’t want her to do something, she can overrule me. And I was awarded final say for mental health decisions. So again, in the same process, if it has to do with mental health, we are required to discuss it, but I can overrule her in the end. And we have equal custody. So. I mean, it could have been a lot worse, but it’s not ideal for my son. 

Chris [00:14:57] Right. Right. 

Caller [00:14:58] Because he’s, well, I mean, he’s just put in the middle and he’s you know, he’s 11. And 11 year olds don’t get a say in anything when it comes to family court. There’s, you know, he can’t talk to the judge. His opinion’s not taken into consideration. And, you know, it’s not cheap. You know, a custody battle is not cheap. And everything you’ve got to do is going to cost you more money. So when it comes to therapy and we will end up back in court, I’m sure, over his ADHD diagnosis and potential medicate- medications to treat depression and ADHD. 

Chris [00:15:39] That’s really sad to hear he’s in the middle of it. I’m glad I’m glad to hear that he’s with the therapist because it does sound like- I’m hearing you. You sound like you’re able to explain all this in pretty levelheaded fashion. Obviously, there’s also emotion there. And I’m sure your wife or your ex rather has emotion. I’m sure your wife has emotion about all of this. So to hear that he’s with someone who can be impartial and and down the middle and a confidant and who is trained to listen sounds vital. So I’m glad to hear about that. 

Caller [00:16:15] So, you know, he’s he’s stuck in the middle and he’s, you know, doesn’t have a voice. And he has to do what he’s told to do. And unfortunately, you know, I don’t know that he’s- I don’t feel that it’s best that he be in her care for 50% of the time because she’s, you know, it’s it’s emotional abuse that takes the toll, and it’s the emotional abuse that the court doesn’t take seriously, you know, like like physical abuse. 

Chris [00:16:47] Mm hmm. 

Caller [00:16:48] I mean, it’s really hard knowing. So I’m I’m trying not to use the most common term that’s always in social media these days, but so I’ll go with emotional immaturity versus narcissism. It’s really hard to know what he, you know, what he has to deal with and not have a voice and not be able to really say things for himself. I think I’m rambling. 

Chris [00:17:18] No, you’re not rambling at all. There’s so much to process. And I’m, as you can see, I’m I’m trying to be very respectful on this one. 

Caller [00:17:26] And I and I don’t and I don’t want to speak ill of the other party, but it’s really hard because it was so personal and so, like the allegations were never true. They were just used to try to gain custody because she’s mad. 

Chris [00:17:43] Yeah. Yeah. 

Caller [00:17:45] And it’s like she has a boyfriend. She’s, you know, she’s moved on too, like… 

Chris [00:17:51] You know, it really jumps out. What really jumps out to me is those first four and a half years where you guys were living together. That really jumps out. That is, sadly, hearing about a tense custody battle is not uncommon. Right? You hear about that. But what you don’t hear is about people who break up and then still live together for close to half a decade. And… You know what’s really wild about it that I’d love your perspective on is, when a lot of people hear that timeline, so we got pregnant. We realized long term this wasn’t going to work. But in these early years, we’re going to live together, build something, look out for the kid together. You go, well, this is now a nontraditional choice done- the only reason to do that is because you’re going, Well, we want to be here for this kid, right? So to hear that you were able to do that and commit to it for almost five years and then a custody battle gets this nasty, that that dichotomy really jumps out at me. And I’m sure you’ve poured a lot of thought into it and about those years of your life and if you regret them or if you wish that you had maybe structured things differently, but that that’s really unusual that first five years. And you would think that would create a long term foundation. But clearly, it seems you have to wonder if it almost helped the pendulum whip back in this other direction almost harder than it would have. 

Caller [00:19:27] So, you know. Yeah, I think more I think what stands out more is the four years where we lived apart amicably, seemingly amicably, sharing 50/50 custody with zero complaints about my ability to parent. And not until I literally signed a lease for a house with my fiance does she think- does she claim that I’m an unfit parent. And she has always- she has never said it had anything to do with my wife. It’s always been about me, according to all of her complaints. But it’s not the first time the court has seen that type of thing either. So… 

Chris [00:20:13] Yeah, I’m sure they’ve seen it all. They’ve seen it all. 

Caller [00:20:17] Fortunately, my state is is an equal parenting state and the default judgment is 50/50 unless one parent can be provably unfit. 

Chris [00:20:28] And I have to ask, I’m just going to be totally blunt and ask… In those years where you were living together, in those years where you were apart before your wife, was there ever, you know, you said you realized it was going to work long term, but was there any sleeping together? Was there any sexual connection, emotional connection that you can look back and say, Yeah, we were in this hazy gray area. Or was it was it pretty cut and dry? Was it pretty black and white?

Caller [00:20:56] We were we were roommates. We had separate bedrooms since we moved across the country. It was literally an arrangement so we could be together with our kid. 

Chris [00:21:08] And, you know, you’re anonymous and there’s no reason to lie to me. You’re saying you guys never wound up having a couple glasses of wine after the baby went to bed and winding up sleeping in the bed? That never even happened? Sleeping in the same bed? 

Caller [00:21:20] No. No. No.

Chris [00:21:22] Wow. 

Caller [00:21:22] No. I mean, we just knew it wasn’t going to be a thing for us. And how do we do- what’s best for our child? 

Chris [00:21:29] Wow. 

Caller [00:21:30] And at that time, that was what was best for our child. And like I said, I wanted to get out of the state I was living in but wanted, you know, ideally would have stayed closer to my family. But we ended up where we are. And I’m happy to be living here. But was it my choice? Was it really my choice? No. 

Chris [00:21:51] So when you started dating again, were you blindsided that your ex had these feelings? Because it sounds like there’s jealousy playing a part or, you know, some sense of being territorial. But it’s it seems shocking based on what you’re describing, this almost a decade of living apart and or as as platonic roommates. 

Caller [00:22:11] So hindsight being 20/20, my my only guess is that she was really hoping that I wasn’t going to hang around and she was going to be able to move across the country and not deal with that. That’s my armchair hindsight, 20/20 perception of it now. And then she realized that, hey, you know, I’m not a bad person. The child’s safe with him and he’s a good babysitter. And I can use him as a babysitter and I can have a social life. And my kid’s safe with his dad. And didn’t have to worry about anybody’s opinion other than hers because I’m passive and I’m not going to start a fight. 

Chris [00:22:51] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. 

Caller [00:22:53] But then when I started dating, and now there’s a woman who’s going to point out these issues, now all of a sudden I’m an unfit father, and she’s going to use everything she possibly can against me. 

Chris [00:23:08] And how’s your how’s your wife feeling about all this? Because there is that other issue, too, of… You mentioned you didn’t have much of a social life. You start dating again. Clearly, it goes well if you find someone who becomes a life partner. 

Caller [00:23:25] Mm hmm. 

Chris [00:23:26] But I’m sure there’s also the side of things as a father. Oh, you go ahead. 

Caller [00:23:31] My wife and I reconnected through Facebook. We actually we went to high school together and knew each other in high school, but we didn’t date. And we connect. We reconnected through Facebook, and we were in a long term relationship for 18 months? However long it was. 

Chris [00:23:49] Long distance. A long distance relationship?

Caller [00:23:51] Long yeah, sorry, a long distance relationship. And she would come and visit every six, six weeks or so for the weekend or a few days. And then she decided to move out to where I am, and that’s when- and so she had met my son’s mother once just to say hi, and it was obvious that she didn’t like her, but that was it. There was no real interaction at all. And then when she when I think when my son’s mother realized that my wife was going to be around long term, that’s when she got a little bit more concerned about, you know, the influence that I would have over our son. When she realized that my wife took him alone for the first time, she had tried to send him for his parenting time with me with a watched that had G.P.S. tracking on it, which obviously I figured out real quick and did not allow. So that’s been a bone of contention for her for a little bit. So, you know, it doesn’t have anything to do with my wife, according to her. But the evidence shows that it has everything to do with my wife. And it’s really unfortunate because my wife is a wonderful person who is also a survivor of narcissistic abuse. So she’s familiar with all of these tactics that we are now, you know, being being educated about. And she’s been she has been like the rock that has already been through a custody battle that really, really, really helped to get me through this custody battle. 

Chris [00:25:25] Oh, wait. She’s been through similar things on her end? 

Caller [00:25:28] Yes. Yes. And she herself has has a daughter that’s been alienated from her because she moved out here. 

Chris [00:25:36] Wow. Wow. 

Caller [00:25:39] So that’s a whole another whole nother aspect of us. 

Chris [00:25:42] Yeah. I can’t imagine. Because there’s there’s the dual thing here of I know as a parent, there is on some level, this instinctive feeling of, man, my kid is the most important thing to me. I need to be involved. I need to be protective. I need to make sure everything lands well. I also imagine that after four and a half years of living together as roommates and then another four years where you pretty much shut down your social life, that the idea of I’m going to get out there and connect with someone else feels like a priority. Like, that’s another aspect of humanity where for a lot of people, if you let that part of yourself shrivel and die, it’s what’s your quality of life? And you deserve that too. So walking that tightrope and that balancing act, that doesn’t sound easy. Let alone, when this immediately flares up in response to that. 

Caller [00:26:40] My wife is my wife is my person. I’m lucky enough to have found that person and to have known her previously and can verify her upbringing. Which I can’t do for my son’s mother. So having found my person, we knew we would be married, you know, the first couple of weeks when we started talking. It was so obvious to both of us where this was headed. So we know we’re right and we know we’re doing right by my son and her kids as well. So having that as as my solid footing has obviously helped get through the tougher parts with my own son. But obviously, having a child that’s alienated from you while you’re going through a custody battle with another is going to be another mental obstacle. 

Chris [00:27:33] Big time. 

Caller [00:27:36] So, you know, right now it’s quiet. We we do what’s called parallel parenting, in which it works best for high conflict dynamics, relationships, in which I don’t know what my son does for 50% of the time when he’s with his mother. 

Chris [00:27:56] It’s just you drop him off with each other. You don’t check in. You don’t…  

Caller [00:28:00] We share- our custody week on, week off. So I drop him off at school on one Monday and she picks him up, and then she drops him off the next Monday, and I pick him up. So we don’t see each other. The school is where the exchange happens. That’s recommended best in every scenario. And and yeah, we don’t communicate unless it’s something we absolutely have to communicate. 

Chris [00:28:24] Wow. 

Caller [00:28:25] And that, for the most part, keeps the peace until we have to have a doctor’s appointment or something like that. 

Chris [00:28:30] Yeah. 

Caller [00:28:31] And even the doctor has become a bone of contention because while before the custody battle, he had a pediatrician. She has since become more anti-vax. And he now goes to a naturopath, which I don’t agree with. 

Chris [00:28:48] Oh geez. 

Caller [00:28:48] But because she has that final say in medical decisions, I can’t override. 

Chris [00:28:54] Oh geez. 

Caller [00:28:56] And she had this naturopath, you know, write a vaccine exemption for him based on, I don’t know, six degrees of separation from some random thing he’s claimed to be allergic to. So my son is not vaccinated anymore either. He can’t get the COVID vaccine. He can’t get his 11 year old vaccine that he’s supposed to have. 

Chris [00:29:16] Oh, geez. That’s terrifying. 

Caller [00:29:18] And in my opinion, there’s no reason he shouldn’t be vaccinated. She brought him to one naturopath, lied to him, got him to write an exemption for him. I brought proof showing that what she said was untrue and he had to reneg on his on his exemptions that he wrote. So she brought him to another naturopath and had her write the exemption for an entirely different reason. 

Chris [00:29:43] This is nasty stuff. I’ve got to ask. We’re we’re halfway through the call and there’s something I’ve hesitated to ask. 

Caller [00:29:52] Sure. 

Chris [00:29:53] But, I mean, you would have perspective on it that no one else would have. But I want to be really clear. I want to set up the whole- I want to get the whole thought out, even if it’s a little rambly, because I think it’s important to get it out there, which is you’ve made it very clear your personal experience with this. It does not sound easy. It does not sound fun. It does not sound like anything that anyone would sign up for. You at the very top said, you know, I’ll be able to give you perspective on a custody battle from the guy’s side of things, from the man’s side of things. And I’m wondering… How to phrase this, because I’m wondering I actually wonder if you’re aware of this. I’m very, very interested in this story. There is something that… I find myself naturally a little wary in a way that is not fully fair to you as someone who’s on this show, based on what the show usually is, because… Men’s perspective on custody battles is also something that I have picked up as weirdly a big tentpole talking point in the whole men’s rights movement. The red pill thing. It’s one of the first things that gets brought up which is-. 

Caller [00:31:06] Ughhhh. 

Chris [00:31:07] Okay, that’s interesting. That’s a good reaction to hear, because I wonder if you’re aware that you are kind of in a position that that a lot of people would point to from that world, which I find to be a very dark, very dark corner of the Reddit universe. 

Caller [00:31:22] Very dark. 

Chris [00:31:24] Are you aware that this is a talking point and that you are walking a story that a lot of people would point to as a talking point in it? Because I don’t want this to ever be construed as that on my end. 

Caller [00:31:35] Correct. I don’t want this to ever be construed as that either. I am very well aware of those, for lack of a better term, you know, conservative talk show host type men’s rights and I demand to know where my child support goes kind of attitudes. It’s not- I’m nothing like that. No, I’m very liberal. I am, you know, I don’t I don’t subscribe to that at all. 

Chris [00:32:05] That’s good to hear. 

Caller [00:32:06] So as matter has a matter of fact, my son’s mother pays me child support because she makes more than I do. So I don’t subscribe to that whole conservative aspect of men’s rights. 

Chris [00:32:20] It crosses over with a weird conservativism, like, you know, like showing up in the universe of like your Alex Jones, Andrew Tate, Ben Shapiro types. 

Caller [00:32:31] Yes. 

Chris [00:32:32] Jordan Peterson’s over there. 

Caller [00:32:33] Exactly. Yeah. 

Chris [00:32:35] It’s on the fringe of all the Venn diagram of where those figureheads cross over. There are these talking points about custody battles from the male perspective. And I’m glad to hear that we’re on the same page about that. 

Caller [00:32:47] Yes. And more of the like how to heal from what that woman did to you type mentality, which is not anything I’m about. 

Chris [00:32:55] Yeah. That’s good to hear. I am. I’m finding myself very curious about… How long were you with your ex before she got pregnant? And, and how did you meet? Yeah, there’s something there, right? 

Caller [00:33:09] We originally met, I think, 2009 on a dating site at the time before the apps. And we had dated a few times and decided it wasn’t working out and we didn’t date for a while and then about a year later stumbled across each other again on a on a site and started dating again. And and it seemingly worked out better this time. And, you know, we successfully were enjoying each other’s company from what I could tell. And I want to say within six months, we had decided to have a kid. Mutually decided to have a child. 

Chris [00:33:51] Oh, so this was not an accident. 

Caller [00:33:52] So, you know, an accident? Well, no, that’s the other thing about me is that I never wanted to have children until I met my son’s mother. 

Chris [00:34:04] That’s a revelation. This was no accident. This was planned. I have a big reaction to that. I bet you do, too. We’ll get that reaction and the reaction to that reaction and the reactions to those reactions and so many more reactions when we return. Thank you again to our advertisers. Now, let’s finish off the phone call. 

Caller [00:34:29] I never wanted to have children until I met my son’s mother and said, okay, I want to have a child. Which hindsight now is like, where did that come from? But again, I wouldn’t change anything because if I did, I wouldn’t be where I’m at now. So everything, the good, the bad, all of that, is all part of where I’m at right now. And I’m in the best position of my life right now, despite all stuff going on. So, yeah, I mean, it was a conscious decision within a year of knowing my son’s mother to have a child with her. 

Chris [00:35:05] And and then before the kid was born, what are the turns that happen where you go, Uh oh, I don’t know. I don’t know if we’re going to… 

Caller [00:35:12] So when the when we moved in together, was when we both realized or I realized that like, Oh, yeah, I know this isn’t going to work the way we thought it would, because she wanted things one way and I wanted things one way and there was just no no reasoning or or anything to make it work together. 

Chris [00:35:33] And she was already pregnant by the time you moved in together?

Caller [00:35:35] Correct. Yeah. 

Chris [00:35:37] Oh, wow. 

Caller [00:35:38] And we’re like, Oh, well, what do we do now? And that’s when we were like, okay, well, let’s let’s cohabitate and raise him through his formative years, which didn’t have an age on it. It was just through his formative years. So we stuck together, cohabitating and ended up across the country. And, yeah, $50,000 later, we have our final custody orders. 

Chris [00:35:59] I had- I have to say, to hear that you guys sat down and planned this out is maybe the most shocking turn that could have come in the course of this phone call. Does that blow everyone’s mind? Because it sounded like, oh, we got together, we had this really passionate thing. Physically, we were it was really, you know, it was steamy in that way. And then, oops, baby comes along and we realized that’s not what this was ever meant to be. I am shocked to hear that it was you sat down and made a conscious plan to make all this happen, that that’s a turn no one saw coming. 

Caller [00:36:34] Correct. And she will tell people that it was not a conscious plan. I know she’d tell people that. 

Chris [00:36:41] Wow. 

Caller [00:36:43] So, you know, I’m still friends with a lot of the people that she’s formerly friends with. So what she was telling them back then, I now know. 

Chris [00:36:55] I want to ask a sensitive question, but one that’s real and that you have to think about and that I think anybody in a contentious custody situation ever has to think about, like, you got this 11 year old kid who, you know, you’ve said is stuck in the middle of it. It sucks. It sucks. You know it sucks. Your ex knows it sucks. No matter what you do feel about each other and no matter what actions are taken and what battles you have to have, I’m sure everybody at the very least can agree that that sucks. How do you- kids are also smart, and 11 year olds are old enough to start figuring out life and… Have the conversations started with your son yet? Or if not, how do you anticipate them going when he turns around and goes… It seems like you and my mom would both agree that doing this together was probably, in hindsight, not the best move. But it’s the move that led to him. Like he’s going to realize… oh, the puzzle pieces come together where these two people have really grown- I don’t want to put the word hate. You haven’t said it. But at the very least, like there are major walls up between these people and they don’t even interact with each other anymore. They probably wish they didn’t do this. And yet he’s there. Do you have you had those conversations yet? Or are you anticipating them? 

Caller [00:38:22] No, it’s it’s tough because we’re not you know, you’re not supposed to badmouth the other parent and you’re not supposed to talk about court process and all that with your kid. But when he raises questions or says things that are completely untrue, I have to correct to the truth and say, Well, no, that didn’t quite happen like that. Or, you know, you shouldn’t have had to not tell me about that, because when you tell your kid not to tell his dad about something, when that comes out accidentally, that’s horrible for the child because he feels like he betrayed the person that told him not to tell. 

Chris [00:39:08] Right. Right. 

Caller [00:39:10] And part of that issue was hiding the medical condition we talked about. Something happened prior to the one that I that I walked in on, and he was told not to tell me about it. 

Chris [00:39:22] Wow. 

Caller [00:39:24] So he had to keep that a secret. And then he was beside himself when that accidentally came out one day. 

Chris [00:39:30] Yeah. 

Caller [00:39:31] And that’s where I get into- that’s where I get into talking about the emotions. 

Chris [00:39:36] Right. To a kid, it might feel like your reality is being messed with in a certain way. You know, if you’re being told, here’s a set of facts from one parent. And then another parent goes, That’s not actually factual. Or you’re being told. 

Caller [00:39:56] That’s called that’s called gaslighting, Chris. Yeah, it happens all the time to him. 

Chris [00:40:00] It stinks. 

Caller [00:40:02] And I’ve said is, You know your truth. Do not let people change your truth. You know what happened. 

Chris [00:40:07] Right, right, right. And when you’re asked to hide a thing as a kid, like a medical condition, and then it comes out, that becomes such a piece of the fabric of your reality. That’s really scary to a kid. I have to imagine it’s hard for you to hold back emotionally when you find out about these things, because if you let the emotions go and the emotions start to rule things, that also can be something that’s held against you as well. It’s really hard, really difficult. 

Caller [00:40:35] And that’s, you know, ultimately that’s what they want you to do, is they want you to react so they can use it against you. It’s it’s such a- it’s really tough. And it’s it’s tough for the adults. You know, it can’t be any easier for the kid. 

Chris [00:40:53] Oh, no. There’s it can only be more difficult. Only. Do you do you anticipate it settling at all? 

Caller [00:41:01] No, not until he’s 18 and he can make his decisions. 

Chris [00:41:06] Man. 

Caller [00:41:07] And then even at that point, you know, she still will be fighting. 

Chris [00:41:11] Yeah. He was just having more freedom to to determine his own reality. 

Caller [00:41:15] But, you know, at some point, he’s going to be able to say for himself that I don’t want to go over there. 

Chris [00:41:21] Right. 

Caller [00:41:22] And when he has his license and his car, who am I to make him? 

Chris [00:41:24] Yeah. Do you do you fear that? Do you fear like what if what if the well gets poisoned and I’m the one who gets cut out? 

Caller [00:41:32] So I think he has enough of the truth injected into his life that he knows he’s he’s a very smart kid. Like, literally very smart kid. ADHD, but very smart kid. And he sees what’s going on. He knows what’s true and what’s not. So I’m not worried about where he’ll end up. I if I were his mother, I would be concerned where he’s going to end up because I don’t see her on a path where she has a very good relationship with him in the future. 

Chris [00:42:10] Right. 

Caller [00:42:11] When when he is old enough to be able to go through these court records and to read for himself the things that his mother had said, and what she tried to use against me, you know, then he’s going to be able to make his own decisions. I have said when he turns 18, I want to be able to give him a little thumb drive that has all this information and say, Here you go, kid. This has everything from the video at the front door when I got served with the petition to all of the court documents. You do what you want with it. 

Chris [00:42:46] Yeah. Are you, uh. Are you. Do you and your wife ever talk about having kids? 

Caller [00:42:54] So my wife and I are in our forties and beyond having a child at this point. She has two from previous relationships. Um, we have a 21 year old daughter, and then the other 11 year uh 12 year old who is currently alienated from us. So but no more kids for us. No.

Chris [00:43:20] How’s your wife holding up? I mean, that’s her story to tell. But that’s that’s an impossible situation in its own right.  

Caller [00:43:28] I mean, it is it’s a whole nother it’s a whole nother hour. I mean, cause that’s, you know, the same thing, just different perspective. But, you know, ideally what I think my son’s mom would like to do to me and just kind of write me off and not deal with me, but that ain’t going to happen. 

Chris [00:43:48] Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And how the how are the headaches doing? 

Caller [00:43:53] So I have been my headaches have been in remission since 2018. 

Chris [00:43:57] You haven’t had one? 

Caller [00:43:58] They have not. I have. I have not had one. I have not had to use any type of medication to relieve them either. So fortunately, there were no stipulations put on that through the court process. So if I need to, I think I’m still free to seek out my medication. But, you know, I didn’t know if that was going to be a process. You know, if they were going to say I couldn’t do that either. But I did submit enough medical documentation to show that it was you know, it’s not recreational at all. It is does actually serve a medical purpose. So. 

Chris [00:44:30] So you were straight up with the court?

Caller [00:44:32] Though, technically illegal. 

Chris [00:44:33] You didn’t try to hide it. You were like, yep, I’m not I’m not going to I’m not going to sit here and lie to the court in this. Let’s be straight up. I’m using mushrooms. It helps. 

Caller [00:44:45] So, you know, I. Yeah. And she had used because part of her evidence was she had, you know, while she was supposedly a supporter for me, she had joined these communities on Facebook. And so previous to her petition, she had gone in and saved screenshots of my commenting about how I was using it and how to do it and all this other stuff. So there was evidence already submitted to the court, so I had no reason not to be truthful about it and say yeah, I that’s how I treat my headaches. She’s been aware of this since the second date. She had no problem with that. In fact, she encouraged me to grow them in her house and ingested them with me. So does she really have a problem with it? So I think that’s why nothing came of it. And also that it’s it’s past tense. This was 2020 when she filed her petition. So it’d been two years since I had used any psilocybin. 

Chris [00:45:44] I do wonder, have you ever thought about things from the judge’s perspective, like, I am sitting here and I’m starting to have one of those dark joke moments where I’m like, You do know that when someone comes in and it’s like, He’s using illegal drugs, and you’re like, Yeah, because I have this untreatable medical condition- here’s some literature on it, that for the judge, that’s a day when the judge is sitting there going, Oh, Jesus, what am I dealing with now? Right? Like you are one of those cases for that judge like this whole thing. 

Caller [00:46:13] Mm mm. I submitted to three separate, uh, hair follicle drug tests. 

Chris [00:46:20] Oh, wow. 

Caller [00:46:21] None of them actually tested for psilocybin. Not that there was any in my system at the time, but we tried to get tested three separate times, and none of them actually tested for the drug we wanted to test.  

Chris [00:46:33] So this was just… This was just… I don’t even want to say comedy of errors. 

Caller [00:46:40] It was a witch hunt. 

Chris [00:46:41] Wow. And your whole life got put under a microscope for other people to dissect and judge. 

Caller [00:46:47] Yeah. Yeah. And then when she didn’t get anywhere with the mushrooms, tried to bring in my, my, my cannabis card, my medical card for cannabis, which she was also a patient. So really, like, it was it was really dumb and a lot of- a waste of the money that could have gone to an entire college education. 

Chris [00:47:11] Yeah. Yeah. So wait, she she tried to say you also use cannabis and you said I have a medical prescription card for that. She does. She does too? And then at that point, does she turn around and go, I withdraw that complaint? Like that’s… 

Caller [00:47:25] I, we just didn’t hear anything else about it. 

Chris [00:47:28] Wow. 

Caller [00:47:29] And that’s how it works. There- you know, you’re allowed to bring up these crazy, wild accusations. And then when nothing comes of it, there’s no repercussions. 

Chris [00:47:38] Wow. What do you, uh. What do you do professionally? 

Caller [00:47:43] So I’m a photographer professionally. I actually take pictures of used and new vehicles for dealerships around town. 

Chris [00:47:51] That’s a respectable trade. 

Caller [00:47:52] So I’m out and about. You know, I work by myself, and I’m up around walking around car dealerships all day, taking pictures. 

Chris [00:47:59] Nothing wrong with that. Busy business, too. Busy business the past few years. Can’t keep them on the lot. 

Caller [00:48:06] Well, you got to get them on the lot. But that’s. 

Chris [00:48:08] You can’t get them to the lot, let alone keep them on the lot. You can’t get them to the lot, right. You can’t get them off the shipping containers that they’re sitting in or you can’t get chips inside them. 

Caller [00:48:17] Yeah, exactly. 

Chris [00:48:19] I’ve heard all about this with the chips. 

Caller [00:48:21] Yeah that was a problem. But that that’s been resolved. The inventory has gotten better. So. Yeah. 

Chris [00:48:25] What? What advice might you offer up if there’s somebody out there who is maybe in the thick of a custody battle or is in a relationship where there’s a child involved and they’re starting to sense I have a feeling this might not be permanent and it might be headed in that direction. Are there any, you know, outside of any actions that were taken against you, where you feel like there were some, you know… Some, you know, you clearly think that some things were said not in good faith or in underhanded fashion… Outside of that. 

Caller [00:49:04] Oh yeah, the entire… 

Chris [00:49:05] It’s just it sounds like that is your main view is like I was with this person then I wasn’t with this person, then I was with someone else, and then the old person started saying crazy things that blindsided me and I had to defend myself. That being said, as far as how to handle yourself, how to protect the kid’s feelings, most of all, how to… Weather these situations where you feel like your life is under a magnifying glass for the judgment of others, do you have advice for people out there on how to make it through to the other side of that, both for yourself and for the kid who’s caught in the middle? 

Caller [00:49:43] You know, I really don’t. 

Chris [00:49:47] Just that- it’s that cut and dry? 

Caller [00:49:51] As bad as that sounds, it’s, you know, there would have been no way, like, I didn’t know it was coming. Right? So there was no way for me to prepare for it or to do any kind of, like, damage control and delete posts that I knew which she would try to use against me. Like she had already collected all her evidence before I even knew. But I think because it was so like out of the blue and after so long of living apart that I don’t think much of it was taken too seriously. And I think I think to some degree the court saw that it was more of a jealousy or control issue. But then the court, you know, required us to work together by splitting the mental health and medical decisions. So. I don’t know. And I don’t know what future court will result in. 

Chris [00:50:45] Is there more court on the horizon you anticipate? 

Caller [00:50:48] I absolutely anticipate it, yes. As a matter of fact, you know, we we haven’t we’ve done so we had our final orders for a while. We had gone back to court, I think twice since we’ve had final orders. And I think I mentioned earlier, when it comes to professionals wanting to try medication for my son, we’re going to end up back in court over that, too, because I’m going to be, Yeah, it’s worth trying it. And she’s going to be adamant that he not be put on medication. 

Chris [00:51:18] What a cultural thing to be caught in, too. You know, these are stories that I’m sure are happening all over the place that we don’t think about of like, yeah, what if you’re raising a kid with someone else and your relationship’s not great and that person’s an anti-vaxxer? What do you do? We’re in a cultural moment where it’s like, Oh geez, this is life or death stuff. 

Caller [00:51:39] Yeah. And she has no problem exaggerating and flat out fabricating things to make the doctor think that he had a reaction to something. And, you know, to be an active father is is strange to the world, number one, because there is a maternal default to everything. I can’t tell you the amount of doctor’s appointments I’ve been in that I’ve brought my son to, and his mother’s there, too, and the questions are asked directly to the mother about what he ate and how he’s sleeping. And I have to go, Excuse me. It’s my parenting time. I would know those answers. I’m the dad. And that maternal default is in every aspect of every profession; school systems, doctors, everything. 

Chris [00:52:27] Oh, even the side of Children’s Tylenol. Children’s Tylenol, I just noticed this the other day. It says on the side of the box, it says, you know, trusted by moms since blah, blah, blah. Whenever they whenever they do, I go, that’s not that’s not cool for someone in your situation. Guess who else that isn’t cool to either is moms. Like this- it’s also we can’t just we can’t just throw that, we can’t just throw. 

Caller [00:52:52] 50% of the 50% of my child’s life, dad gets to make all those decisions. 

Chris [00:52:58] Yeah. So no real advice, no real advice. Everybody just gotta roll with the punches, just like you did. Just. 

Caller [00:53:05] I mean. 

Chris [00:53:05] When you get knocked out to the mat, stand back up and try to get up before the ten count. That’s it. Simple as that. 

Caller [00:53:11] I can tell you, when the petition was filed, all the red flags became apparent. And I go, Oh, well, yeah, that’s that makes sense now. Well, yeah, I obviously ignored that one. 

Chris [00:53:24] What do you mean by that? What’s that mean? 

Caller [00:53:26] All I did, well, I mean, how- so if I look back on it now, we were okay living apart for four years because I didn’t put up a fight about anything. And like, if she brought him to the doctor, I didn’t think I had to be there to advocate for my son because she led me to believe we were both on the same page. Then when you go into court, she says, I’m the only one that brought him to the doctor. His dad was never there, and now his dad wants to be there all the time. 

Chris [00:54:00] Yeah. 

Caller [00:54:01] Yeah, like, you can’t prepare for that. 

Chris [00:54:05] Yeah. 

Caller [00:54:06] Well, I wasn’t there all the time because you led me to believe that we were on the same page. Had I known you were going to become an anti-vaxxer, I would have been at every single one of those appointments. 

Chris [00:54:17] Right. Right. 

Caller [00:54:18] So. You know, hindsight’s 2020 and you learn a lot. Looking back on it. 

Chris [00:54:24] Yeah. 

Caller [00:54:26] But I don’t know that I could have been any more prepared. Now I am. You know what I do? You know what I do now is I record. I live in a state in which I can do that. I record every personal interaction I have. Every in-person interaction I have with her is recorded. 

Chris [00:54:40] Wow. That sounds like such a nightmare. What a pain. 

Caller [00:54:43] So I can listen back to it and go, No, no, no, that didn’t happen. When she tries to gaslight me, I can listen to it for myself. They’re not recordings for court. They’re recordings for my own sanity. 

Chris [00:54:55] Wow. 

Caller [00:54:57] And ultimately, probably in the future for my son’s sanity.  

Chris [00:55:01] Yeah, I bet. I hope- I don’t have great hope that this is going to end well, but I really hope it does, both for your sake and her sake. I’m sure on some degree her life would be more peaceful. But most of all for your son’s sake. I hope that this lands somewhere where it’s less contentious and less litigious. 

Caller [00:55:26] So I have provided a home for my son where I believe he knows that he is safe. He understands that if he really had an issue with me, he would be able to tell me and not fear repercussions or, you know, if he’s not doing well in school, I’m not going to tell him he’s a disappointment. You know, I’ve always told him, as long as you’re trying your hardest, the grades are irrelevant. Nobody cares about middle school grades in the future. That’s not going to stop you from getting into college if you choose to go. But, you know, custody battles are no joke. There’s a lot of things that can go wrong really fast. And I’m fortunate that I had an attorney that was able to to keep things the best, you know, the best result that she could. 

Chris [00:56:19] And overall, we’ve got a minute left, how would you grade the overall quality of life at this point? Would you say it’s better than it was five years ago, ten years ago? 

Caller [00:56:30] My overall overall quality of life right now is, yes, better than it was. Despite the setbacks and the custody battle and all that, I am in a better place than I was five years ago. Absolutely. You know, I married the love of my life. We are each other’s person. We’re always there for each other. The marriage has been fairly wonderful, despite everything we’re going through. And and I think, you know, it’s the real deal and we’ll get through anything. 

Chris [00:57:00] Well, that’s a good place to land. And it’s it just stinks that you had to you had to walk through all this other stuff to get there. And I’m sorry that you’ve been dealing with it. And I thank you for filling me in and for being honest and for allowing me to be wary and allowing me to ask some of the tougher questions and for airing it out. I have a feeling the reaction to this one is going to be very unique. 

Caller [00:57:23] Yeah, well, I’m happy to get my story out and I’m glad I got to talk to you. This is wonderful. 

Chris [00:57:32] Caller, thank you so much. Like I said, I hope things get to a place where they’re less contentious, less litigious. Am I going to bet my bank account that that’s going to happen? I am I’m not. But I’m hoping for it for you and for all parties involved, most of all, your kid. This show was produced by Anita Flores. It’s engineered by Jared O’Connell. The theme song is by ShellShag. Go to ChrisGeth.com if you wanna know more about me. And hey, wherever you’re listening, there’s a button that says subscribe, favorite, follow, something like that. When you hit that button, it helps us so much. You can find our latest merch over at podswag.com. If you want your episodes of the show without any ads at all, you’ll want to go to Stitcher dot com slash premium. You can use the promo code “stories” for a one month free trial. And if you enjoyed beautiful stories from anonymous people, tell people about it. Word of mouth is how the show survives. Thank you so much in advance.