EP. 211 — Unfiltered: AMA with Liza Powel O’Brien

Jameela Intro [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to a special Ask Me Anything episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil. I love these episodes. This is where you ask your questions, and I bring on someone very clever to help me answer them. And we try to work out solutions together that might make your life or the world a happier place. And this week was very focused on marriage because my guest is part of my favorite marriage I think I’ve seen, ever. She’s been married to someone who I know well. His name’s Conan O’Brien. He’s a hilarious comedian, a total legend. He’s been on this podcast before and was fantastic. They’ve been married and in love for well over two decades and are still together, still in love, still speak so highly of one another. And and when they’re together, there’s just this ease that you’re like, how are you achieving this after all this time? And having children and one of you having this very public career in the limelight, how the fuck are you balancing all of this? And so Liza was very kind as to give us an insight into that dynamic and the challenges and the hurdles of that and, and different problems that people who have children might face and, and ways around it through her own experience. It’s a very, very warm and intimate and honest chat. And I, I was really surprised as to how many of you were asking about marriage and a long term relationship, especially after children because I know it can add so many stressors that society just doesn’t do enough to warn us about. And so we talk a lot about relationships, how to maintain relationships, how to keep your cool, how to self investigate. And we also talk about Liz’s fantastic podcast called Significant Others where she talks about all the the people in very famous known public figures and historical figures lives who weren’t shouted out, who maybe we don’t know about, who were instrumental in that person’s success and journey whether it’s for good reasons or bad. And it’s a brilliant, brilliant podcast that is narrated by lots of different people. I’ve been one of the narrators, Conan, all kinds of like, fabulous actors, etc. and comedic voices have participated in this storytelling that is unlike anything I’ve ever heard. So it’s called Significant Others. You’ll find it anywhere you get your podcasts. It’s hosted by Liza and it is just so excellent. So we talk a little bit about that. We talk about her experience as the significant other in a very prominent figure’s life. And then we go into all of your questions. And I really loved this conversation and I think you will just love her. She’s so soothing and open and quietly confident in a way that is also very owning of her own flaws and, and, difficult moments. She’s just a dream. No wonder he’s so in love with her. I’m in love with her. Am I going to break up their marriage and steal Liza? No, no, I’m not. Okay, listen to the episode, I think you’ll love it. This is Liza Powell O’Brien.

Jameela [00:02:59] Liza Powell O’Brien, welcome to I Weigh. How are you?

Liza [00:03:03] I’m just fine. Thank you so much for having me.

Jameela [00:03:05] Oh, I’m so thrilled to have you here. I think you are so brilliant. And I also find you to be just one of the the sanest and most soothing people I have maybe ever met, especially within such a chaotic industry, so it is a total pleasure to have you here.

Liza [00:03:23] That is quite a compliment. Thank you for having me.

Jameela [00:03:27] Haha! I wanted to be able to introduce you to some of my audience who may not be familiar. You have this wonderful podcast that I have been lucky to be a part of called Significant Others, and I wondered if you could explain the podcast to people because I think my audience would lap it up.

Liza [00:03:41] So the idea is to tell the story of a person who was profoundly influential in the life or work of someone who we are all quite familiar with. For example, in your episode, it was Virginia Woolf and her father. I think a lot of people have heard the name Virginia Woolf, but maybe fewer people have heard about her father and how he was important in her life beyond just having helped create her. And he was a very complicated figure, which makes the story better. But he opened his library to her at a time when women were not allowed to study formally the way that their brothers could, and he really made her a writer. And then also was a very, very difficult person for her to coexist with. So I tell these kinds of stories that without this person who people aren’t quite as aware of the course of history as we know it might be different. And yet in the best instances, you know, the story of the relationship is really what’s kind of the juicy part.

Jameela [00:04:46] Yeah. And it is interesting. It’s a bit like sliding doors, right? It’s the impact that something or someone can have on the course of your existence. But we so rarely learn the context of how someone arrived at their work. There are some fascinating stories throughout your podcasts, like Maya Angelou, how her memoir wouldn’t have come about perhaps without James Baldwin. And I was wondering if you could tell me some of your favorite stories throughout the podcast so far.

Liza [00:05:13] Sure.

Jameela [00:05:13] You’ve done two seasons now?

Liza [00:05:14] Yes. The second season is out now and almost wrapped up, which is crazy because they take a long time, a long time to make and then not as long to listen to. But the the one that came out a couple of weeks ago now was about Friedrich Nietzsche’s sister, a person that I had kind of no awareness of. But she she, this season weirdly has become kind of like the the stories of naughty ladies, like the darker stories of, so his sister was an anti-Semite, completely unabashed anti-Semite. You know Nietzsche, who is this great powerful thinker

Jameela [00:05:54] Philosopher, yeah.

Liza [00:05:55] Yeah, the philosopher, very strictly anti nationalist. He didn’t believe in war. He didn’t believe in statehood. He was doing all this incredible deep thinking. And he had this sister who he loved, who he called the llama because she was so stubborn. Well, he said at one, but this is the kind of thing that summarizes what she would do. So he called her the llama, partly because she was stubborn, partly because she when llamas get angry, they spit, and that applied apparently. She was, she fit that description. But when she talked about him calling her the llama, she said it was because she was so loyal. So she’s a big bender of truth. And he had a debilitating brain disorder that really compromised his health as he got into his 30s. He always suffered, but then in his 30s and then his 40s, he was very, very sick. And she somehow wrestled his state away from their mother and began kind of inviting her Nazi friends to have meetings where they would come and and see the great thinker, like, paralyzed in his bed and raving like a lunatic because he had lost his footing in reality. And, so she really pimped him out. She profited from his work. She wrote falsified memoirs of their childhood together. And, you know, Hitler came to her funeral. And so now I think it’s fairly common for people to associate Nietzsche with fascism, partly because the way that he wrote lends itself to being sort of you can pluck out a saying and, and use it however you want, and it doesn’t have to line up with what he intended. But it’s it’s also largely due to her, and it took decades for them to sort out what she had invented versus what was actually true, so she’s kind of monstrous. And the story is quite amazing. And so that’s that is definitely one of my favorites.

Jameela [00:08:02] Yeah. And also learning about Gandhi and how it was actually his wife to encourage his passive approach, his passive protest approach. Just so many fascinating stories. And and I was wondering what it was that made you interested in the subject, given that you are the significant other of, very well known comedian?

Liza [00:08:20] The first story that I heard that really perked my ears up about this in general was the story of Vera Nabokov, Vladimir Nabokov’s wife, who they have a fascinating relationship. They were joined literally at the hip for decades. And there’s no confusion about who was the writer. It’s not like, you know, when people say, oh, did Zelda Fitzgerald write some of her husband’s famous work? It’s not that kind of a question, but, Vera Nabokov, apparently he was so frustrated trying to write Lolita that he tried to throw the manuscript away twice and set it on fire, and she plucked it out of the burn bin and said, absolutely not. This is going to save us, because they were struggling financially for quite a long time. And she turned out to be quite right. And anyway, I heard that anecdote in grad school when I was in a lecture, and I thought, well, that’s really interesting. And I just sort of have been collecting similar stories along the way. And then once we started doing the podcast and and engaging with an audience and asking for suggestions, people were throwing all sorts of other ideas at us. And that was it was so fun to you know I had a huge whiteboard full of potential ideas and, and looking into those was, you know, kind of addictive, I have to say, like, I keep looking them up. So and I think that the reason that it appeals to me is partly because because it appealed to me long before I was ever in a relationship with a person who was known, but I do come from, I’m the product of a very traditional American marriage. I think those values were sort of imprinted upon me, and they also resonated with me. So I am someone who, accepted that very traditional template without without much pushback. There’s some, but not not much. And so I always kind of, I guess was prepared to be in a supporting role to a certain degree. And that’s a very qualified statement I’m making. But for whatever reason, it, these stories kind of speak to me. You know, it’s funny, I had a, I had a best friend when I was really little, and she wanted to be a performer, and I knew I didn’t want to be a performer. And so she would say, “I’m going to, you know, grow up and be a star.” And I would say, “And I can be your manager.” Like I was already preparing myself to sort of be behind the scenes in a certain way, so who knows.

Jameela [00:10:59] Well, it’s interesting, isn’t it? And as the partner of a very well known musician myself, it is funny the the roles that women take that we aren’t credited for. And actually hilariously when James, you know, I’d worked on James’s music for years quietly, I was too scared to put my name on his music because his fans are terrifying. And finally, he was the one who was like, “This is ridiculous. It’s ridiculous for you to work on my music and you not to be credited. It feels like very counterproductive to all the work you do in feminism.” And so he finally did, come out and say, like, you know, he put my name on everything, and, and his, a lot of people, just said, “No.”

Liza [00:11:46] They just don’t believe it. Just not interested.

Jameela [00:11:47] They were like, no. There was a headline that said “Woman who,” what was it? “Woman credited on boyfriend’s album for making him sandwiches while he was working.” Like, just the amount of misogynist projection onto me was really hilarious, and then it made me want to take my name off his future music. And I kind of still don’t really know what to do because it was almost worse when people did know because then I was being actively dogpiled and being called all these names, and I hadn’t actually done anything. He just put my name on his music because I’d worked on it. Hahaha! And it was just very alarming.

Liza [00:12:30] Well, for the sake of, you know, speaking as someone who has spent a lot of time engaging with the historical record, I’m a huge fan of preserving the historical record accurately, and that’s easy for me to say. I’m not in your position. I’m not getting a lot of heat, but the heat will the heat will die down. And and if you’re misrepresenting the facts, then that’s kind of a

Jameela [00:12:55] It was an earned goal for women.

Liza [00:12:57] It’s an offense too to just, you know, the future. And you know that Heather Cox Richardson who does her Great Letters from an American newsletter, and now it’s a podcast too. That’s her entire thing. And she’s like, I just it started during, I think Trump’s first presidency. And she said, I’m I’m so invested as a historian in preserving, you know, the facts about what is happening right now that I really need it to be, so I imagine that I’m writing to myself in 100 years, you know, that kind of the future historian. And so for the future historians, for the sake of future historians, I say represent reality and ignore the people who don’t like it.

Jameela [00:13:39] It was so funny how angry it made people.

Liza [00:13:41] I know.

Jameela [00:13:42] People can’t imagine women I think especially in a producing role. We all would like, there’s just like a default. Even other  women struggle with it. We have an idea of who does what role. When we think of doctor, we automatically think of a man. When we think of a nurse, we automatically think of a woman. There’s just certain roles.

Liza [00:13:57] But my question is, I wonder how many people even know what a producer does? Do you know what I mean? Like, there’s so much, I think we’re in an era of intense criticism. Everybody feels, you know, highly impugned to criticize. But but I think there’s so much less investigation of fact than there could be.

Jameela [00:14:22] Well, it’s just funny that if I write a book, if I were to credit James in it, he’s never written a book, no one would second guess it. When Taylor Swift’s boyfriend

Liza [00:14:29] I was just thinking of that.

Jameela [00:14:30] Was credited for writing on her records, no one went, “No, he didn’t. He just made her sandwiches.” But it just is something that I do find, like, gender wise. You know, I think of all the, the women of a lot of very powerful men in this industry, what the wives and mothers of their children have sacrificed and and been the one to be the attentive at home parent because it’s impossible to be both. There’s no such thing as having it all, quote unquote. There are, it’s just not, it’s a fallacy. And and that parent, whoever is in the prominent limelight position, regardless of their gender, they simply cannot achieve that level of success and be completely present for the family. So the other parent, naturally, a woman is the one to, as in normally a woman.

Liza [00:15:13] Generally.

Jameela [00:15:14] Is the one to

Liza [00:15:14] Most often.

Jameela [00:15:15] Is the one to, yeah, is the one to make that sacrifice. And, you see it in lots of amazing relationships where the, the incredibly talented woman has also just made a decision and, and it is a it is a fascinating role to play and I, I wish those women were I guess more sung, which is so ironic given that I keep resisting putting my name on James’s music.

Liza [00:15:39] I know. Well, you know, the other interesting story that is about Gala Dali, who never lifted a brush in her life. She was not a painter, and her husband, Salvador Dali, her second husband signed many of his paintings with both of their names. And he had this whole thing, I mean, they had a very bizarre relationship, but he said it’s something like it’s with your blood that I paint. You know, he was so indebted to her as his muse that he felt it appropriate to put both of their names on the paintings. Now, who knows, maybe there was a conversation where she made him do it. I don’t know, she was kind of a, tricky character too, but I think there are maybe more examples of this kind of unconventional crediting of things than we generally get to benefit from.

Jameela [00:16:35] Well we saw on stage at the Golden Globes I think when Ryan Gosling won for La La Land and he made it a point of thanking is wife Eva Mendez for being pregnant with one of their children and then looking after that other toddler and being there 24 hours a day and dedicating herself to that while also looking after, I think a dying family member. And he was like, “If you hadn’t done that, I couldn’t have had the time of my life playing this role, and I wouldn’t be standing here.” And the amount that has gone viral again and again and again and again and again for years shows me that that is something that is really resonating. It’s it’s women reposting that.

Liza [00:17:16] Yes, and Alfred Hitchcock famously thanked, when he got a lifetime achievement achievement award, and he said, “I want to thank four people. One is a screenwriter, one is an editor, one is” I can’t remember the third thing, and “and one is the mother of my child. And they’re all they’re all named Alma Hitchcock.” So, and not that their relationship was the paragon of bliss, but there are these little instances of people sort of recognizing out loud what you’re seeing is the culmination of a group effort, you know, or at least a team effort. And yet it doesn’t tend to stick with all of us, right? Like for whatever reason, we don’t tend to think of when you see someone on stage accepting an award who has a family, you don’t tend to think of all of the work that goes on behind the scenes to get that person there. And I wonder how much it is, you know, if we did shift our frame and it’s not so much the weight on that person of recognizing it every time, like, what if we brought that awareness to the moment? Who knows?

Jameela [00:18:21] Yeah. It’s interesting. I think it’s just that hyper individualism. We can only imagine one person responsible for all of this success. And and I think it would actually be more healing because then we wouldn’t deify the celebrities. You know, we wouldn’t we wouldn’t look at them as these sort of, we wouldn’t compare ourselves to them.

Liza [00:18:38] Right.

Jameela [00:18:39] We we wouldn’t be so intimidated by them or in awe of them. We would look at that as a, you know, I’ve always said on this podcast and everywhere that, like, I couldn’t do any of the things I’ve done without the extraordinary team of women around me who have made everything possible because I am disorganized and only one human being

Liza [00:18:57] Yeah.

Jameela [00:18:57] Who is kept in line and held together like Humpty Dumpty by a bunch of extraordinary women.

Liza [00:19:03] Mhm.

Jameela [00:19:04] And I, I long to share the limelight with them because also then, you know, when shit gets rough, it would be great to also share the burden of attention.

Liza [00:19:13] Yeah.

Jameela [00:19:13] Haha! I wanted to be able to talk to you about that podcast cause I think it’s such an interesting subject. But I also know you, and I think of you as a relatively private and chic woman, so I didn’t want to delve too deeply into your life around the context of this. But I did think, seeing as you have one of at least mine from the outside, as someone who knows you both socially, one of my favorite marriages. I thought you would be of sound mind to give my audience a little bit of advice. Not professing that you are an expert, but you have mastered a how long marriage?

Liza [00:19:57] Oh, God. It’s the kind of thing where you’re like, what year is it? Okay. It is 22 years this year. 22 years.

Jameela [00:20:03] Extraordinary. And how long were you together before then?

Liza [00:20:06] About a year and a half.

Jameela [00:20:07] Right.

Liza [00:20:07] So we met in January of 2000, so it’s been 24 years together.

Jameela [00:20:13] Amazing. It’s also lovely, so easy.

Liza [00:20:15] Yeah, I know.

Jameela [00:20:16] For your anniversary. Haha!

Liza [00:20:17] That was nice. Yes. That was really helpful.

Jameela [00:20:20] I, I think that’s amazing. And you too, I, you know, I will not ask and do not know of the trials and tribulations of of having children and being with someone very busy and, and, complicated. And I’m sure you’re both complicated, but the way that I have seen Conan speak about you and the way that I have heard you, even when your tongue is in your cheek speak about him, is with such love and such compassion. And, there seems to be such a a firm, a rock solid bond between the two of you that, that can only have been built. That kind of thing just can’t happen completely by accident.

Liza [00:21:00] I think you’re probably right. I think you’re, yes, no, I’m, I’m, I’m happy with that.

Jameela [00:21:05] Yeah. Haha! Good.

Liza [00:21:07] I’ll take it. I’ll keep taking it.

Jameela [00:21:09] So people asked a lot of questions, and the first one I’ve chosen, I always do this, that whatever question comes up the most is the, the one I’m the most likely to answer. And so best advice for marital longevity when also juggling parenthood. Because can we get into how fucking testing that is? I can’t believe the state of all my friends relationships now they had children.

Liza [00:21:32] Conan had a great analogy for it actually, which is he said, you know how, this is an analogy I would never make because I didn’t know it happened, but when they’re producing cars on the assembly line, there’s a machine that takes every whatever 200th car and picks it up and shakes it to see if anything comes loose. It’s sort of a way they quality test their product. So that’s what doing kids does to your to your relationship. It just picks the whole thing up and shakes it and it’s rattling and shit’s falling off. And it is incredibly stressful. And it’s stressful on so many, in ways that you don’t, that you can see coming and in ways that you can’t see coming. And I’ll preface whatever advice, quote unquote, I’m about to give any of these dear listeners with the following anecdote, which is, you know, we have two kids, they’re 18 and 20. We’ve figured some stuff out. We’ve gotten things are more maybe kind of easygoing than they were when the kids were really little. And a person can start to pat themselves on the back a bit and feel like, oh, well, we’ve really figured some stuff out. We’ve learned how to work together, blah blah, blah. So about six and a half years ago, we get a puppy, and the puppy, who’s seven weeks old, comes to the house, and the person who brought us the puppy said, “Now the puppy needs to go outside to go to the bathroom every two hours all night long.” And I had a full blown panic attack and I thought, oh no, no, no, no, I can’t, because he was still doing a daily television show that he couldn’t do that. He could not take a night shift. You know, it was not an option. It was all going to be on me. And I thought, oh, no. And I said to him, “This puppy has to go somewhere else. This puppy can’t come here.” And we had a fight that was like as if we were, you know, right back in the trenches with toddlers. And I realized we didn’t learn jack shit. We just outgrew the really tough stuff. I mean, maybe we’ve learned 1 or 2 things, but you don’t really you don’t really learn how to, you know, sidestep the trouble, like cause trouble’s just going to come. It’s not in your control.

Jameela [00:23:47] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Me and James legit, I think, almost killed each other over Barold, my first dog, my firstborn.

Liza [00:23:54] Yeah.

Jameela [00:23:55] Haha! It’s, it’s so testing because you just the, it’s the resentment

Liza [00:24:00] Yes.

Jameela [00:24:00] The resentment and the

Liza [00:24:02] And the assumptions of, like, who’s going to do what, and how do we work out what makes sense. And then you got the culture clash of everybody’s different like his mother was partner in a law firm with six children, and I didn’t have a job and had only two kids. And so I was like, “I’m tired.” You know, and he’s looking at me like, “What’s wrong with you? Why don’t you have four more kids and a big job?” You know.

Jameela [00:24:27] Oh for God’s sake.

Liza [00:24:27] Yeah. So, anyway, it’s a lot, so

Jameela [00:24:31] But it’s, it is, it is funny, though, and then also, by the way, the dynamic, I don’t know if you guys went through this or anyone else listening but through this, but then also, like, who’s the dog’s favorite? You know, this, like, weird fuckin competition that started between us where the dog was gravitating towards me more because I was being the attentive parent, but I was being accused of secret cheese. And I will not confirm or deny whether or not there was some secret cheese that was given by me.

Liza [00:24:59] Well, then you’re a smarter woman than I because I’ve always noticed

Jameela [00:25:04] It’s also cause I did more of the heavy lifting.

Liza [00:25:06] Yes. You know, it’s very basic with babies and animals, they like people who feed them, right? So doing the daily chore of the feeding gets you a little something from the animal in response. But I also have noticed that, like, you know, I don’t know if this has been disproven and I’m, you know, going off of old information, but this sort of alpha thing of like the alpha in the pack, if your family is your pack, you know, the dog responds differently to the guy with the deep voice and the testosterone and the taller frame, like, yeah, the dog likes me and wants to cuddle. But if it’s time to go, like the dog is not going to listen to me the way he listens to Conan. So that’s a really interesting, and I feel like, yeah, I can’t scale that wall like it’s not I can give all the secret cheese I want, it’s not going to fix it, I don’t care.

Jameela [00:25:56] Oh, that’s so fair. Okay, so then what does one do with the sledgehammer that can take to a relationship?

Liza [00:26:03] Well, my biggest, recommendation is a really good couples therapist because, for a number of reasons, and I know that’s not always an option for everyone, but even if it’s a 1 or 2 time thing, what I noticed every time we would go talk to someone together is that it automatically unified the two of us. We were presenting our issue to someone who was going to consultant and there to help us, but it it automatically put us both on the same side of the of the problem instead of, you know, even if we had, you know, an issue where one person’s at odds with the other, it’s our together problem that we’re presenting. And the other thing is that you don’t, I don’t anyway, I don’t know some people might, but we didn’t walk around our house complimenting each other. You know, it’s not like a thing that you feel necessarily moved to do. But when you’re explaining your relationship to a person, a professional, if things are really rough, that’s one thing. But if it’s sort of just like, oh, this is just all in the regular flow of life, and some stuff is really tough and tricky. You’re going to get to that stuff, but you also find yourself saying, oh, well, here’s what he’s really good at, and here’s what I really appreciate, and vice versa. And I was like, this is so, so nice to hear these nice things that we say about each other that we would otherwise just keep to ourselves because there’s no prompt for it, so anyway.

Jameela [00:27:33] Well, that’s interesting because I, I always sometimes feel concerned that some of my friends when doing couples therapy compete for the cut for the therapist’s approval, which is something you have to be mindful of. So I like the way that you’re framing it as we are going together for this issue.

Liza [00:27:49] Right.

Jameela [00:27:49] And the issue is the thing that we are united against.

Liza [00:27:52] Right.

Jameela [00:27:53] Right. We want to resolve that together.

Liza [00:27:54] Yeah. The other thing that is helpful in that context is, you know, sometimes your partner can say something that sounds absolutely bananas to you, right? Like, you know, I think it’s fine if we let the baby cry all night, you know, whatever, just I’m saying anyone said that, but whatever as an example. And then to me, that sounds totally insane. And then I start to spiral when I’m especially when I’m, you know, a young, exhausted mother of little, little kids. And I think, well, if that person thinks that’s okay and it sounds insane to me, then I can’t trust them, and what else do they think that’s crazy. And I have to prove them wrong, and then it’s a fight. And if you go to a good couples counselor and one person says, here’s what I think makes sense, they’ll go, okay. And suddenly I’m sitting there going, wait, they didn’t call the police? Like they didn’t freak out, maybe, maybe my response to this is not the only correct response. And then it helps me to kind of come down from my high horse a little bit, even before we’ve gotten into, you know, the negotiation.

Jameela [00:28:58] Yeah, I think that’s great, and it does give you like a little bit perspective. And it also gives you the opportunity to hear your thoughts outside of your head

Liza [00:29:04] Absolutely.

Jameela [00:29:04] Because I feel like my thoughts are so dangerous inside of my head because they ping pong around and they just gain kinetic energy and momentum and become crazier. And as soon as I say it out loud to a friend, even, you know, there have been times where I couldn’t afford to, couldn’t access or didn’t want a stranger to talk to. And, and I would talk to a friend and it’s so helpful to just let it out. What’s great about a therapist is that that therapist isn’t going to store that information, and then ever weaponize it against you later.

Liza [00:29:32] No, they’re bound.

Jameela [00:29:32] There’s certain things that you just don’t want to say to, you don’t want everyone to know about your relationship. And I think a lot of people feel like, that couples therapy I know, especially men, tend to think that couples therapy is like some sort of terrible last resort of like, we are really fucked if we need to do this. Whereas actually nowadays I’m noticing a lot of my my female friends in particular are ushering them towards that almost as like a preventative measure.

Liza [00:29:56] Yeah.

Jameela [00:29:56] Almost during the pregnancy so that they’re already in a flow.

Liza [00:29:59] Great idea. Yeah. No I think it’s great because then also the therapist can get to know the couple in their mode that isn’t hasn’t been disrupted yet.

Jameela [00:30:09] Oh fascinating.

Liza [00:30:10] And so when the disruption comes they can say, okay, here’s

Jameela [00:30:14] I remember you.

Liza [00:30:15] Right. Here’s the way you guys used to manage things before and now you can’t because of blah blah, blah. So, you know, it worked really well last time when I mean one of my biggest things was and I think it’s fairly typical, certainly not for everyone, but a lot of people when there’s, you know, especially if the, the, the mother is doing the bulk of the caretaking of the little kids that the father who’s still out in the world, there’s all that resentment of, like, you get to go out in the world and you get to still like go to, you know, sit down and have lunch at a restaurant and eat and not have to have another body attached to your body.

Jameela [00:30:52] Yeah, haha.

Liza [00:30:52] Yeah, and you have the energy to do that because I let you sleep all night. And so there’s the resentment of that, and then there’s also the father sort of wanting to bring the mother back out into the regular world and say, leave those babies for a bit, like, let’s find a person we can trust, leave the babies there, and you come be a person with me. And I had a very hard time with that. I wanted to stay with the babies always, and, and so I needed some help with being reminded how important it is to exist in the world outside of your children. I might still need some help with that.

Jameela [00:31:29] Haha!

Liza [00:31:30] At 18 and 20. Very sad, but true. So, so, yeah, the longer the the relationship with the therapist, the better they can sort of, they know your tricks. They know your weaknesses. They know how to help bolster you in these really challenging moments.

Jameela [00:31:47] Right. Well, someone actually wrote in, as someone just entering my 30s thinking about starting a family, I’d love to know how you both manage to balance your professional lives and personal time with your partners. Any secret to maintaining that spark? I have a lot of feelings about this because I think that it is a, and I mean this in like a really positive way, but maintaining a long term relationship. James and I have only been together half as long as you and you and Conan, but that’s still, I think

Liza [00:32:17] That’s nothing small.

Jameela [00:32:18] Significant. Yeah.

Liza [00:32:18] Sure.

Jameela [00:32:18] Nine and a half years, going on ten this year. And that has been like a huge commitment of mine, not just in that I’ve committed myself to not shagging other people, but also that I’ve committed myself to being actively in love with someone and keeping someone actively in love with me. And that has meant that, like, my consistent stance on our relationship is that like, we are going to have to date forever because there’s all this temptation everywhere, right? Like, 9 billion people. Not to say that any of them want to shag us, but some might and we might want to shag them. And in order to maintain just the love that it takes to to dedicate yourself to someone, it’s like, we have to dress nicely for each other whenever we can, even if it’s just occasionally we have to show up. We have to use our best manners for each other, not our worst. This terrible misnomer that you you wait for random strangers to offer your best manners and the best side of yourself, and you cover up the darkness and you give all of that darkness. I remember seeing this beautiful video of James Baldwin’s partner being like, save the save that fake happy side for me. Don’t give me all of your darkness. Like this doesn’t feel like a privilege to be the one that you come home and bleed all over. And then everyone else has got on your best side. And I thought that was so moving because he found it so affronting what she was saying because he was saying that, you know, then he’s being inauthentic with her. And she thought, I would rather that.

Liza [00:33:50] Hmhm.

Jameela [00:33:51] Then be the person that gets your worst side. That’s not the only side of you that exists, but that’s the side that you reserve for me when you’re tired and cranky.

Liza [00:33:59] That’s a huge tendency at least in in our world is and that’s another thing that when we would go talk to someone together, we were suddenly our best selves again, and we were being our best selves for each other. It took another person being in the room to sort of, you know, click back into that mode.

Jameela [00:34:15] Oh, it’s like the way that we heat the house when someone’s coming over, right? Why the fuck don’t we? I should invite someone over every day.

Liza [00:34:21] That’s right.

Jameela [00:34:22] I would always live in a clean house.

Liza [00:34:23] Exactly. Exactly. And it’s, I do think a successful long term relationship accommodates both extremes that you can feel safe enough to be your worst self with the person and know that it’s not going to send them running for the hills, and they’re not going to punish you for it. They’re going to, you know, in our some of our worst moments, my favorite thing is one or both of us would turn around afterward and go, “Well, that sucked.” You know that just like acknowledging, wow, that was really shitty, but not being, you know, punitive in the wake of it. And then at the same time minding, as you say, the fact that, you know, of course, we still want someone to make an effort for us. Of course we still want to feel that we’re, you know, worth that kind of energy. And, and it’s hard. I mean, that’s the kind of thing that, you know, it takes a constant kind of reminding and and intention, and it’s not the kind of thing that, like, you figure it out once and you’re done. It’s an ongoing. But but I do think to this person who’s asking the question, which now I can’t recall, can you please repeat it?

Jameela [00:35:34] Just like, how do you how like asking how we balance, like, work and personal lives?

Liza [00:35:40] Oh, yeah. I mean

Jameela [00:35:42] I actively, by the way, a little bit work less. I actively work less to be spend more time with my partner and with my dogs and with my friends. I’ve taken a complete turnaround since like 2021 where I’ve just gone, like, I’m actually not, you know, I love being in this industry, and I feel very lucky, but I don’t feel dedicated to it in a way where I feel like it’s more important than my my social and like affection intake.

Liza [00:36:10] And does he do the same or is he differently committed to his area of work?

Jameela [00:36:16] No, I think he does the same. I think he, I think I, I think I think he’s probably more more dedicated to his work than I probably am, but I am, I could guess less like a more friend orientated creature than he is. So he definitely makes time for me and is like very, very considerate around my schedule and plans his tours sometimes around my schedule based on like which country I’m going to be in. But but I would say that I particularly made a and it’s not just for him, just for everyone in my life, because I realized that I actually I kept on being called a girlboss and I was really unhappy. I was like, I don’t think I want to be this anymore. And so I still run my own life and have my own independence, but I’ve started to live a cheaper existence and just work less so that I have more time to nourish the things that will last beyond my looks and beyond my popularity.

Liza [00:37:11] Well, I think you’re probably in good shape on both of those fronts. However, I do, I do, what really resonates for me in what you’re talking about is I, I am very conscious of having a limited amount of energy, and I can put that energy into only so many different things and only, you know, to a certain point for each of those things. So having that conscious sense of what is the most important to me and what do I want to invest myself in? I think that’s just a wise process to be going through kind of all the time, because things do shift, right?

Jameela [00:37:47] Yeah, but really do date, really do make your best effort with the other person. I really think, I think there’s something a little bit wrong with letting your full like laziest most like, you know, this idea of unconditional love. I’m going to get controversial here and say that I don’t believe in it.

Liza [00:38:06] I think it’s kind of what what parenting is. And I don’t mean specific to human children, I mean, anything that you parent. You have a a, you know, pay it forward kind of love offering is is part of that dynamic.

Jameela [00:38:22] Right.

Liza [00:38:22] And that doesn’t it’s, that it’s not true for a partner. You know, we of course we need reciprocal energy from our partner. It doesn’t make sense otherwise.

Jameela [00:38:33] Yes, that’s a better way of putting it because I haven’t had a child, so I can’t imagine that.

Liza [00:38:39] But you parented dogs.

Jameela [00:38:39] I definitely have it with my dog.

Liza [00:38:41] Yes.

Jameela [00:38:41] Yeah, I have that with my dog.

Liza [00:38:43] Of course.

Jameela [00:38:43] But it’s especially, I think, with inter-humans and like people that have just come into your life, even family members, I’m just like, you have to show up for me in a way that is respectful and shows love in order for me to be able to give you that love back. I do believe in like a form of reciprocity, and maybe that’s just like a ruthlessness in me or a coldness, but I give so much love, and so if it’s not returned and I give so much. I’m so careful, and so if that’s not returned, then I just can’t be. But I why would I utilize my energy that way? It just feels illogical. And I do have maybe more sway over my heart, you know, than some other people. But I’m just like, it just my love dissipates very quickly when I feel like someone’s wasting it, and so I’m

Liza [00:39:24] I think that’s healthy.

Jameela [00:39:25] Energy efficient.

Liza [00:39:26] Yeah.

Jameela [00:39:27] I’m love energy efficient.

Liza [00:39:28] Yeah.

Jameela [00:39:28] But that’s what I would say is that take it very seriously and be your kindest and best self whenever you can for your partner. And also have a bad day and try not to take that out on your partner unless they have actively done something to contribute to it. I come home, I’m having a shit time, or I’m going through a patch of depression and or, you know, some sort of mental instability or something going wrong with my family. And I make it very, very clear that I am having my own separate nervous breakdown here. And it’s not because of you, and you just have to please afford me a bit of grace, and I will try not to take it out on you. I think being very, and me asking that of him as well of, like, don’t.

Liza [00:40:05] Yeah.

Jameela [00:40:05] Take your shit out on me.

Liza [00:40:07] No, I think one of the best types of communication, and I do think this is a luxury of a somewhat established relationship, although probably some people get there immediately, it took me a few years, is to get to that point of I was prone to think every bad mood was a reflection of me, right? It was about me and that sort of like middle school, fear based thing that we have socially. Or it’s like, “Uh oh, that person’s unhappy. It’s my fault.” And to get to the point where you can recognize that your partner’s in some kind of pain or discomfort and say, “Is this about me?” And they say, “No.” And you go, “Okay, great. Can I do anything?” You know, and you can sort of manage it really right out in front instead of, you know, passive aggression. Not to say that I’ve totally given up on passive aggression because it’s a very effective tool sometimes.

Jameela [00:40:57] Haha!

Liza [00:40:57] It’s very hard to avoid. But, but when you feel that, like, pang of fear of, uh oh, the person I am supposed to make happy is not happy. Oh, shit. To go from that instead of straight to I’ve got to make a nice dinner. I’ve got to look better or I’ve got to, you know, fix it to go to an intermediary step of just checking in and saying, what’s up? You know? And most of the time it’s about something completely unrelated, and they don’t care what you do. And then the times when it’s like, “No, I’m really mad about that thing you said,” like, okay, then you can get into it and address it instead of

Jameela [00:41:34] Yeah.

Liza [00:41:34] You know, all of the shadowy, you know, game shit that we all play.

Jameela [00:41:39] No. 100%. I think that’s great. Clear communication. Sometimes I come home and to all of my flatmates, I just say, “Listen, I, I irrationally just want to punch all of you in the face, so just stay away from me for like, three days until I, get my period. Just fuck off.” And it works. And then everyone leave me alone, and no one’s feelings get hurt.

Liza [00:41:58] Yeah.

Jameela [00:42:07] So someone said, my husband and I have very different parenting styles and it’s causing some tension at home. How can we work together to find a middle ground without undermining each other in front of our children?

Liza [00:42:19] Again, this is a time where I really found a lot of comfort in a third party who was who I trusted because, you know, that that stuff, that parenting stuff is so deep and it can be deeper than you realize. It can feel like, you know, say it’s an argument over how much screen time a kid should have a day, right? And it can sound like you’re having a logistical argument, but in reality, you might be having a moral argument where if you were raised in a house as I was, where I was only allowed one hour of television a day, and it could only be PBS up until a certain point, and we never had cable. I got a very clear message from my parents that, you know, TV and mass entertainment is sort of somehow bad for you, right? It was limited the way a controlled substance is limited. Now, I grew up and married the television, so clearly that backfired in my, in my case. But, you know, if I had married someone who he turns out he had a very similar rule in his house growing up, so we were aligned pretty much on that stuff. But if I had married someone who was allowed to watch as much TV as they wanted and thought that was perfect and great, I would have had a real moral response to that, and again, a sort of fear that I had chosen wrong, that this person was not as good as I needed them to be, that, you know, whatever.

Jameela [00:43:43] Cause It feels like it represents a lens of an outlook on the world, right?

Liza [00:43:47] Correct. And also that, like it, it equals something inside of you that you may not be aware of, that like it equals, you know, the way to be a good parent or raise a, you know, an intellectual human or whatever is somehow really depends on how many minutes a day of screen time they have. And and again, you might not be aware yourself of all that’s coded into these ideas, and so having a third person to sort of help identify what’s behind your conviction. I know a couple who one of the members of the couple thought it was, believed in the the theory that kids should be completely self-determining and that they should, you know, learn math when they asked to learn math and eat sugar for breakfast, if that’s what they wanted, and that they would naturally come to a place of health about all of it, and that if that, you know

Jameela [00:44:42] That person does not understand dopamine.

Liza [00:44:44] I think, correct. And I think if there were a good, you know, third party in the room in, in that couple, they might have been able to say exactly that, that like actually brain science doesn’t really support that position, so

Jameela [00:44:56] Yeah.

Liza [00:44:56] You know, so those those guardrails of making sure that that there’s the give and take so that the couple doesn’t because the most important thing is that the parents are happy.

Jameela [00:45:05] It’s also a good idea too as you mentioned at the end of the question to the dear listener, try not to do it in front of the kids.

Liza [00:45:13] Yeah, right.

Jameela [00:45:14] Try to not hash that out.

Liza [00:45:16] They get confused, they get nervous. They learn that you two can be pitted against each other. All sorts of stuff comes out of that. And, you know, the kids are always looking to the parents in in moments when you think they’re completely not paying attention to you to check in and see if you’re happy, if you’re secure, if you’re, you know, if you’re feeling safe. And that’s all transmitted in completely nonverbal, you know, cues, so

Jameela [00:45:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So be very, very careful and also understand that compromise is possible. Again, it’s not about winning. I’ve been I’ve been thinking about this a lot while I’ve been writing lately is that, when we have conflict with someone, why do we look as at victory as getting everything we want and then getting nothing that they want, or for us to be proven right and for them to be proven wrong? As I’m getting older, my idea of victory and conflict is for it to be resolved between the two of you. Not for someone to necessarily come out on top. You know,I had to really investigate what that part of me that wanted to be seen as right was.

Liza [00:46:16] Absolutely.

Jameela [00:46:16] And and understand if that always led me to being happy. And it’s not that I think I should suppress if I have the right answer, but it’s about being able to deliver the correct answer in a way that makes the two of you feel closer together.

Liza [00:46:30] Yeah, there’s a lovely thing that I found happened at a certain point in our time together. And I don’t know if you’ve had this moment too, but there was a after, you know, some number of, of conflicts about whatever which restaurant you’re going to go to or, you know, like any choice that might come up between the two of you. And there were years of sort of like, you know, I want this, you want that. I think you’re wrong. You think I’m wrong. We sort of get through it somehow, and then you get through some bigger challenges. And at some point along the way, I really did acquire the ability to say, “Yeah, this one’s not, I don’t care. This one. I think he’s wrong. I don’t, it doesn’t matter.”

Jameela [00:47:16] You learned to pick your battles.

Liza [00:47:17] He can, to pick your battles, but also to be okay with the fact that someone’s making, that your partner’s making a bad choice, right?

Jameela [00:47:23] Yeah.

Liza [00:47:24] Like alright. So, so let’s see if how this plays out and that

Jameela [00:47:30] It’s hard to do that when your kids are involved, but yes.

Liza [00:47:32] It definitely is. It definitely, definitely is.

Jameela [00:47:36] But not everything is going to kill them. So sometimes it’s nice to let someone learn from their mistakes.

Liza [00:47:40] Yeah.

Jameela [00:47:40] The next question is similar to this, but I think it just gets a bit more specific. Someone said, I’m about to get married and I’m curious, how do you handle disagreements or conflict in your relationship? What’s the best piece of advice you’ve received about marriage? Something I would jump in early with and just say that, Nonviolent Communication, which I spoken about about a thousand times on this podcast, is the greatest key to longevity in a relationship, I believe, which is learning how to speak from a place of empathy, where you encourage empathy in that person. So rather than saying, you do this and you’re selfish, a label, label, label and you know you’re inconsiderate and you’re a prick going, I feel like this when you do this. So you are immediately instigating them putting themselves in your shoes and seeing how you feel and explaining that it’s in context to their behavior and therefore not labeling their behavior, but just saying this is the impact of your behavior. What do we do about this?

Liza [00:48:34] There’s a great phrase that I’m sure other people have heard, and I think Conan may have even said it on this podcast before, but, “Start with I and stick to I. Don’t accuse, don’t excuse.” And I can’t tell you how many times both of us have gone, “Wait, Start with I and stick to I.” sAnd to just even reframe things, and sometimes, you know, you get to the point of like, no, no, you know, you really fucked up like that that can still be valid once in a while.

Jameela [00:49:03] Yeah.

Liza [00:49:03] But yeah, if you start with you, you do this, you do that, you make me feel blah, blah. It will automatically make the person defensive and then you really have a hard time getting through it.

Jameela [00:49:14] Yeah. I, I also love an email. James and I have lived together from pretty much the minute we started shagging, and, and we have, both been in the same room sometimes during the long fight, but I, him and I both have very sharp tongues, and we can say things that are very, very cutting in the heat of the moment. And that’s because we were raised that way. And unfortunately, there is no I mean, not yet an Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind where you can erase that sentence from someone else’s brain. You didn’t even fucking mean it, and you certainly didn’t mean it in that way. And so we’ve become so conscious of not doing that. And so I feel like and also we talk over each other, interrupt each other. He gets loud and then I have to get loud to be heard over his loud. And so it leads to these very, not very constructive conversations that just escalate at speed. And it doesn’t help that we’re both so fucking tall. Somehow that makes it worse. So it turns into like

Liza [00:50:21] That’s a lot of energy.

Jameela [00:50:22] Kong versus like Godzilla, like very quickly. And so I prefer emailing because then the person has to hear you out fully and can’t interrupt you, and then they have to respond point by point and have an opportunity to to calm down, think something over, maybe rewrite something or re approach something and send you the best, most, hopefully most more thought out version of their feelings. And also then you don’t have to receive what could be some difficult criticism right to your face and have to respond to it in the moment. You can go be angry or humiliated or defensive and then calm down and then process it. So I like a good cold email.

Liza [00:51:01] That’s very smart. And then also you have a record too, you know

Jameela [00:51:05] Yes.

Liza [00:51:05] Which is like when you can say, wait, I heard this. I heard you, you know, whatever, call me, I don’t know, a lazy bad mother. And you can look back and say like, and you didn’t actually use those words, or maybe you did. And then that’s a different conversation.

Jameela [00:51:21] Yeah, yeah, but so, so much gets projected.

Liza [00:51:23] Yeah. Well that’s, that’s I think a really big Achilles for probably most people I would think, is that we have our own internal monologues which are so strong and we’re with them all the time, and they’re where the worst of us lives. The shame based, fear based regret for all of the shit that we carry around. And so sometimes we can hear a trigger from the outside that links into that, and we think that person is telling us those awful things that we feel and and they may not be they may be saying something completely innocuous or very, very different. And if you can excavate that and be clear about it and say, “Here’s what I’m hearing and feeling when you’re, you know, saying what you’re saying.” And they can say, “I would never say that about, I don’t feel that way about you. I don’t believe that about you,” you know.

Jameela [00:52:12] Yeah.

Liza [00:52:12] I’m impressed listening to you talk about how well you know your limitations. Like, you know when you need to be left alone. You know, when you need, you know what your, you know, liability is in terms of, you know, shooting off your mouth or whatever, that you’re going to do harm. So that kind of, self-knowledge is a huge piece of it.

Jameela [00:52:35] Well, that came from having two parents who just like, you know, cut themselves and bled all over us, you know, just like every feeling, every emotion, not a moment of self-control, no impulse to, to not take everything out on everyone around them, you know, so I just, I, I learned very quickly that I just definitely didn’t want to do that. And even though I’m not perfect at being controlled, what I am good at is never making someone else feel responsible for what’s going on with me and for my bad habits or my bad behavior. So while I work on that, you know, in the background, I try to keep it away from the people I love because I know how stressful it is for someone to just trust fall on you all the time.

Liza [00:53:15] Right.

Jameela [00:53:16] It can really, like, diminish someone’s well-being, and I don’t ever want to be responsible for making someone feel that way, which is one of the more candid things I’ve said about my life on this podcast. But I do think it’s just to not give myself too much credit. I didn’t just psychically come up with this self-awareness. It comes from witnessing the absolute worst of what that can look like and then just wanting to be like, okay. And I think it’s a it’s a it’s a great cue to learn from what people around us got wrong. It’s to sometimes look at it as a tiny advantage only in that now you have this perspective. To be more careful.

Liza [00:53:54] Also I do think it’s never wasted to recognize how you know our family of origin is so highly influential. And you know there was a moment when I was frustrated years and years ago because I was scrubbing pans or something in the kitchen, and I used like, “You never, you just don’t ever scrub the pans, like, why do you not do this work?” And, and I had sort of been silently asking him to do it, but not actually doing it out loud, in fact, out loud, saying, “Oh no, no, I’ll do it.” And then being mad that he wasn’t doing it instead of me. I mean, just that’s the kind of shit we can do. But he said at one point, you know, I’m not your dad. And I was like, “Oh my God, you’re right. My dad scrubs the pans. He loves to scrub the pans.” I was waiting for him to turn into my dad. That’s one of the more, you know, positive versions of that kind of story of

Jameela [00:54:50] Yeah.

Liza [00:54:51] Looking for the people you recognize. I know there are very negative ones, too. But, you know, that was super helpful to me because it really stopped that loop. You know, I no longer looked to him to do it. If I needed him to do it, I knew I needed to ask and also that he wouldn’t enjoy it. You know, that was a good thing to know.

Jameela [00:55:08] Yeah, fascinating.

Liza [00:55:10] Yeah.

Jameela [00:55:11] It’s it is, it is the I’d say conflict resolution has been like a huge, like, huge foundation in our happiness, like learning how to fight well.

Liza [00:55:20] Absolutely.

Jameela [00:55:20] I think we really do fight well. I’m proud of that in our relationship. We don’t fight often, but when we do fight, it’s it’s generally well. Sometimes it can really go towards absolute clusterfuckery just to reassure anyone who thinks that we’re doing too well and I’m too proud.

Liza [00:55:37] Well and when it

Jameela [00:55:37] I’m only human, but

Liza [00:55:38] When it does, is there do you notice a common thread? Because I’m thinking about the times that things, you know, have continued to go sideways in an argument setting for us, it’s when one or the other of us, for some reason, loses track of the fact that this is our person, that, like this person is on our side no matter what. And sometimes you can still sort of not feel that way. And that’s when all the trouble comes in and you can’t hear them and you, you know, can’t relax.

Jameela [00:56:04] A few things that I’ve learned in the last few years that have really completely altered the way I communicate, which has led to the most peaceful arguments of my life, are the fact that when we shout it, and when we raise our voices, it almost kind of releases like an adrenaline and a natural painkiller into our bodies. That’s why we scream when we hurt ourselves or women scream during labor. It’s because it actually creates like an immediate literal chemical relief.

Liza [00:56:29] Wow.

Jameela [00:56:30] And so it feels good.

Liza [00:56:31] Yeah.

Jameela [00:56:31] To shout, but then afterwards it’s, your your body kind of like surges with, adrenaline. And that’s why sometimes after screaming, you start shaking because your body now has heard the scream, associates that anthropologically with danger. And now you are, you you your body thinks you’re in fight or flight.

Liza [00:56:49] Yeah.

Jameela [00:56:49] So screaming is actually not very good for us. And it is very tempting. And also I learned that when we’re correct in an argument, when we are the one who, you know, quote unquote wins the argument, we get a surge of dopamine. So the next time we’re arguing, there’s a part of us that is like a crack addict searching for that and fiending for that dopamine. So we’re trying to win at all costs rather than resolve. And since learning that, that’s where I kind of changed my opinion on victory. I was like, oh, victory is peace. It is honesty and peace. But it’s not winning or being right as much as it is resolution and and understanding that has just made me want to keep all arguments very level, very, very quiet and slow and with a lot of reassuring language, because as soon as you make someone feel unsafe, their blood rushes away from their brain towards their muscles. And so they literally can’t hear you and they can’t remember properly. And so understanding these little kind of chemical functions that, that seem like a choice in the moment or a moral failing have completely, completely reframed all arguments. And it’s why my my behavior on social media changed so much in the last four years, why I’m so much more thoughtful in the way that I communicate is because I’ve learned this, and I’ve learned how much we fuck up political and social conversations and interpersonal conversations because we don’t have these fundamental rules about peace.

Liza [00:58:17] Yeah.

Jameela [00:58:18] Lastly, and so this one is about kids. You’ve got great kids.

Liza [00:58:22] Thank you.

Jameela [00:58:23] And that’s because you are great people, and they are great people now. Someone has asked, do all children go through a phase of hating their parents or mum or thinking we’re uncool? How can I steer my daughters, currently only three and six, through tween teenage years, as I’ve heard from friends going through it, how confronting this time can be? How can I prepare as a parent?

Liza [00:58:44] So one of my favorite books that literally was a Bible for me when my daughter was going through pre-adolescence and adolescence is called Untangled. And, it’s somewhat less applicable for for boys only because, and and if a child is transitioning genders, then that probably opens up all sorts of nuances that I also have not, that I’m not super familiar with, but, but for the girl, if there are girls in the mix, this this book is really helpful and I have to think some of it would be applicable no matter what the gender. And one of the, it’s funny because it was recommended by my daughter’s school, which was an all girls school, and I was having some tough moment with her. I don’t remember what it was. And I picked this book up thinking, you know, you can barely calm down enough to read when you’re, like, in it with your kids. You’re just so freaked out. And I like the first sentence that I read said something like, “One of the primary jobs of this age is for them to break up with you,” like that is their job as adolescents is they have to break up with the parent so that they can start to define themselves as an individual, and it can be painful. It doesn’t always have to be painful. You might, you know, not have like a super knocked down, drag out, confrontation styled, you know, adolescent journey with them. But there’s this image in it that she talks about where when a kid is in a pool, they’ll sort of, you know, cling to the wall and they’ll push off in the water, and then they’ll swing back to the wall and make sure it’s there, and then they’ll push off again, and they’ll swim a little further next time, and they’ll come back to the wall. And that, that, that is the metaphor for what they’re doing with us. We are the wall. We are their source of, you know, their backbone, their source of of stability and comfort, and adolescence is a second toddlerhood. Actually, what happens in the brain is that it is developing at the same rate, I think, as the early years. It’s like this really interesting for someone who’s interested in

Jameela [01:00:53] Rapid growth.

Liza [01:00:54] Brain development. Yes. This mirroring of the adolescent years and the toddler years is fascinating. And they are, they’re learning things practically that they cannot absorb theoretically or intellectually.

Jameela [01:01:11] Right.

Liza [01:01:12] So, so there’s some strife that’s just built in and unfortunate. And that is a time when it can be really hard on the partners, the parent partners. But it can also be a unifying because if the kids being a shit and they will be a shit and you can turn to your partner and go, because no one loves that kid as much as you do except your partner, and so you can complain about them together without worrying that having that protective, you know, parent thing of like, no, but it’s my child. Don’t, you know, don’t say a bad word about them.

Jameela [01:01:45] Yeah.

Liza [01:01:46] And so that’s kind of magical.

Jameela [01:01:48] There’s some interesting science behind it that I’ve been learning about, which is that anthropologically, this is, it is vital that the child turns on and separates, not fully turns on, but separates themselves from the parent and finds them somewhat repulsive, finds the family repulsive. Wants to be away, wants privacy because the child loves the parents so much that there’s perhaps a biological danger that that love as the hormones, the sex hormones start to develop and their sexuality starts to develop, that there could be a danger that they would mate with those two genetically close to them. And so for them to, to to feel repelled by their siblings and by their parents and uncles and aunts is actually a very healthy thing that is is designed to protect a child from any kind of accidental cross-breeding with their own. So it’s it’s designed to just be like yuck, get away from me. So you want to get as far away from them as possible, so that if you were to mate, you would mate with someone who is other and not brother. What I think is reassuring about the science based element of that is that then you don’t feel like you can cheat it because I do think a lot of people, I totally had this thought when I thought I might have children one day I was like, not me. No, I’m I can see what other parents do wrong. This guy, I’m going to be cool. I’m going to be cool as a cucumber. And they’re going to think I’m a legend and I’m going to be like, I’m going to be chill. I’m not going to ask them for private details about their lives. I’m going to be their best friend. Like the ego, the ego of thinking that I would somehow like, have the cheat code to being the cool parent who they never push away is so hysterical to me. Now that I’m watching that play out and all my friends lies, and now that I understand the science of it and the vitality of that science, and how once they’re kind of, once they relax into their, you know, their hormones and they relax into their sexuality, they come back around and suddenly, like 20, 21, 22, they’re your kid again who loves you and appreciates you. And you’re like, who the fuck was that monster in my house? Maybe they weren’t a monster, but like, where did you go? Yeah, it’s just like they had to, they had to go.

Liza [01:03:58] Yeah. And it does help to be reminded that if it weren’t happening, it would almost be something wrong. You know that like when those painful moments come knowing that they have a very specific, developmental function, as long as

Jameela [01:04:14] Yeah.

Liza [01:04:14] You know, people are not, you know, if a kid is in danger, obviously, if a kid is self-harming, any of that stuff obviously is a separate conversation. But the general kind of, you know, shut up, I hate you, door slamming, whatever. Like it’s it’s a sign of their budding individuality and that that is a thing to cling to when you’re like, “I just want a hug from my kid,” you know?

Jameela [01:04:40] Yeah. Yeah. That is just like they’re, it’s, they’re doing it so that they’re not going to shag you. It’s a good thing. Hahaha!

Liza [01:04:47] I had not heard that theory.

Jameela [01:04:51] It’s really like it’s really illuminating. Everyone should look into the science of it and not take my word for it.

Liza [01:04:56] Did you see that article recently on that subject about how incest is far more common than we’ve previously understood?

Jameela [01:05:05] No I didn’t.

Liza [01:05:07] It’s a fun one. Yeah.

Jameela [01:05:09] Maybe we need to encourage more stroppy teenagerism in that case.

Liza [01:05:12] Yeah.

Jameela [01:05:13] I find you totally fascinating. I always love talking to you. I feel like we don’t talk enough, and and we should try to talk more.

Liza [01:05:19] Let’s do it.

Jameela [01:05:20] Thank you for coming today.

Liza [01:05:21] Thanks for having me.

Jameela [01:05:21] And everyone should go listen to Significant Others because I think it’s such a brilliant subject. It’s such an unusual podcast, and it’s full of so many great people and performances, and it’s just so incredibly interesting. You are interesting. You are open and special, and thank you for coming on today.

Liza [01:05:39] Thanks for having me. This is fun.

Jameela [01:05:41] It was fun. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimmie Gregory, and Amelia Chappelow. And the beautiful music that you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. And if you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. It’s such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording, sharing what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners.

Listener [01:06:23] I weigh having the courage to end a ten year relationship that was no longer serving either of us. I weigh the fear of starting again aged 43, and I balance that weight with the excitement of starting again aged 43. I weigh the things I’m finding out about myself as I venture into therapy. I weigh the lessons of my past and the future I will build for myself.