EP. 214 — Unfiltered: AMA with Vienna Pharaon

Jameela [00:00:18] Vienna Pharon. Welcome to I Weigh. How are you?

Vienna [00:00:21]  I’m wonderful. Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

Jameela [00:00:24] I’m so thrilled to have you. We have wanted a licensed professional for these Ask Me Anything episodes for ages because otherwise it’s just me and my friends, and we really didn’t go to school for long enough to answer any of the more kind of serious questions. And so I’m so happy to have you here. And we have so many fun questions for you, both from your audience and mine. Before we get into it, would you like to explain your area of expertise?

Vienna [00:00:52] Sure. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist, so I work with individuals, couples, and families within the context of relationships, but really specifically, I love looking at the family of origin, the family system that we grew up in. Sometimes multiple systems. If you’re like me, my parents went through a divorce, and so there were two systems in which I needed to learn how to be and relate and what the rules were and how to operate in these different homes. And so I really like to look at how we grew up and understand the foundation, the framework that was built for us. You know, in those early years, our families are the first education, as we know when it comes to how to communicate, how to fight, what boundaries look like, what love is, what attachment is, what it isn’t, right? And so many of us do not have the best education. I didn’t have a great education when it came to that. And so my work is really about looking at the unwanted patterns in our lives today that we can’t seem to shake and change, no matter how much we want to, no matter how committed we are to it. And really pointing people back to the irresolution from their past. Looking at the wounding that took place in their earlier years that maybe hasn’t gotten the attention and the honoring and the acknowledgment that it needs in order to actually create the change that we want to see in our lives and in our relationships.

Jameela [00:02:24] And you have a book about this. It’s called The Origins of You: How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way that We Live and Love.

Vienna [00:02:30] Yes.

Jameela [00:02:30] And that came out last year, and so anyone who hears this and then wants to dig deeper, I think this is so helpful because I think we are in a growing emergency of needing to understand the cause rather than the symptoms. So much of TikTok is about understanding the symptoms, and I think that’s great and it’s a start, but if we can’t actually find the root, it’s so hard to rip it out and start again.

Vienna [00:02:54] Yeah.

Jameela [00:02:54] So I really appreciate that. I imagine the last four years has been intense for marriage and relationship therapists because I think a pandemic brought up a lot for people existentially. And then also people were in lockdowns together.

Vienna [00:03:10] Yes.

Jameela [00:03:10] Or people were in lockdowns bonded and then came out of lockdown and had to adjust to that. How how are you doing? How are you? Haha!

Vienna [00:03:19] I am doing well. And this was true for all therapists and clinicians too. I had to remind the therapists in my practice, like, we are also going through the same thing that everybody else is going through, right? We’re we are supporting people, going through something that we ourselves are walking, you know, the path simultaneously, which is, you know, it’s it happens sometimes, but it’s not it’s not common, right? It’s not common that we are going through the exact same thing that a client is presenting with. But yeah, the the pandemic was really hard because it puts people face to face with things that they had historically been able to maybe avoid or, you know, put in a box and not have to deal with, right? When you’re stuck at home with someone that you have felt disconnected from or someone you can’t stand or or or fill in the blank, right, then everything becomes, you know, far more acute. You know, we didn’t have the same type of coping strategies, disconnective strategies, staying at work later, going to happy hour, etc., etc. and so yeah, we had a lot of people who were needing a lot of support during that time. But it, you know, to some degree it brought forward that which needed to be addressed, you know, and and so like the reframe of that is that in some ways it became, you know, the assister, if you will, in saying, okay, no longer will we avoid this and ignore this. And now it’s time for us to address the things that we have needed to to look at and confront.

Jameela [00:04:55] Totally. Well look, I have you here and I’m so lucky and there are so many questions and I want you to be able to answer them fully, so let’s just jump straight in. There’s a question that came from your community that resonated so deeply with me mostly because I have experienced this, but also so have my friends, which is, you know, as much as when one is trying to heal the wounds of family. When family don’t change, when parents don’t change, it feels extra challenging for us to then heal our wounds when every Christmas or Thanksgiving or birthday or weekend or whatever they’re replaying the same old handbook of parenting and it’s it’s fucking with us. And so then it’s then we’re having to kind of fortify ourselves against their old patterns and how those patterns trigger us. So what do you do if your parents won’t change? Because I think so many people are dealing with this. They didn’t grow up on the internet. They don’t have the same vocabulary, and maybe they have less plasticity, you know, when it comes to evolution, so so what does one do with that?

Vienna [00:06:06] This is such a hard spot because we all want those people to be the ones who acknowledge us, who take ownership or responsibility without needing to defend themselves. And I think to your point, right, we know that that is often a generation that did not have the same access, like you’re saying right now, where the the language, the access to therapy, etc., etc., you know, was not something that was as available or it had so much more shame woven into the fabric around it. Feedback is so hard for people because what happens is when we say, “Hey, I’m hurt,” or “Hey, I wish that you could understand me more,” or “Hey, why can’t you just accept me?” Right? The way that that gets internalized for a lot of people is blame, shame, guilt, embarrassment. And they go into a place of needing to self protect, which often looks like defending themselves, becoming the victim, maybe saying, “Oh, I guess I was such an awful mother and everything that I did for you must have just, you know, gone down the drain.” Right? I hear a lot of the different comments that people receive in that space. It’s hard for someone to receive what it is that we’re asking for because if they don’t have the emotional maturity to be able to receive what it is you’re saying, then they have to go into a place of self-protection instead of relational protection. One of the things that I have always said is that, you know, we will cycle through this many times over. Maybe if I write it to them in a letter, maybe if I’m kind and try to explain to them how I’m really feeling, maybe if I recognize how challenging their life was, maybe if I yell it at them, how many different ways can I try to get this through to the other person? And I think ultimately there’s a point where we have to shift instead of trying to get them to change, we shift the way that we relate to them not changing. So if they cannot or will not change, right? If this is where they are at and this is what they have access to for whatever the reasons, and you know, you can sit here and say, “Okay, well, it’s the context because they’ve got their own trauma or, you know, they’re just stubborn or or or right, it’s like, okay, they’re not going to change in this particular chapter.” We navigate this fine line between when hope is something that is supportive for us, versus when hope is something that leaves us in a place of suffering and pain. There’s a fine line there, and this idea that maybe they will change, maybe this year will be different. Maybe they know because last time at Christmas, we had this big blowout, and I told them, if you bring this topic up, it’s going to be upsetting. Please don’t ever do it again. So maybe this time it’ll be different and then it’s not. Stop being surprised by the unsurprising things. I say that very, very lovingly, but stop being surprised by the unsurprising things. Part of this is about preparing us for what it is we know is in front of us, who it is we know to be in front of us. And for some of us, that might be someone who is tolerable. It might not be exactly what we want, but we say, I recognize what the limitations are. I recognize what the constraints are. I see where the blocks are, and it’s still someone I want to have in my life. It’s still someone I care about. It’s still someone I love. And so, okay, I know who this person is, and I’m not going to have different expectations for them from the ones that I know to be true. And then for others, right, it’s that it’s actually intolerable. It’s not a safe place for me to be. It’s actually more harmful for me to enter into this space. It may be the abuse might still be going on. There’s things that yeah, it’s that just we experience as continued harm. And, you know, in those scenarios we have to decide whether where the boundary is and what our own form of self-protection then looks like. But continuing to go to the well that is empty, you know, that’s something that we really need to reflect on. And it’s, you know, it provokes a lot of grief in us. I think when we have these deep conversations about it where it’s like, what happens when I actually accept that this person is not changing, you know? Period. Like, what do I feel in my body? Right. Because there is grief there because most of us want that change because we know if this changed, here’s the possibility. Right? Here is what could be, right? And we have stories and fantasies about that. Our relationship would be so much better. I’d have the mother daughter relationship that I’ve always craved and wanted, right, the list goes on. And so when we get to this place where we say, I acknowledge that change is not available right now. What then has to be processed? And I think what I see over and over again is that it brings us face to face with our grief.

Jameela [00:10:58] Yeah. Yeah it does. It makes sense the way that you say that. And and I think that for some people, hope feels good, you know, while you have it. But then it also feels especially bad when it gets dashed. And, and I do, like as a British person, obviously, we are very well versed in always preparing for the worst to a point to our detriment, right? All we do is presume everything’s going to go to shit. But there is there is a balance to be struck there because it has always helped, I find, I’m so sorry if this is a stupid thing to say, but I have always found that preparing for the worst outcome. Not to the point where it stresses me out, but just having, I’ve always had low expectations, and so it means that I’ve, I very rarely been disappointed. And I find that my brain then is able to stay more stable than the stress of of your of the stress of disappointment, the stress of hurt that you didn’t see coming.

Vienna [00:11:56] Right.

Jameela [00:11:57] And so it means that I maybe have less moments of light, but I also have less moments of tremendous darkness.

Vienna [00:12:03] Yeah.

Jameela [00:12:03] And I kind of stay at a a simmer, you know.

Vienna [00:12:08] Well, we we don’t need to get into why your coping strategy has become that, but what I will say is that I think maybe one of the goals is to let it match with what is true.

Jameela [00:12:22] Yes.

Vienna [00:12:22] And I think you know it to some degree, right, what you’re saying is maybe and again, we don’t have to get into your life, but the truths, right, of our experiences over and over and over again, right, is, you know, we can be self protective by lowering the bar and saying

Jameela [00:12:37] Totally. And also I’m fine being comfort, I’m comfortable being open. What I mean is that my parents are so traumatized by their lives and will not get therapy.

Vienna [00:12:48] Yeah.

Jameela [00:12:49] And are now at a point in life where it’s almost too overwhelming for them to find out how much trauma is in there.

Vienna [00:12:55] Yeah.

Jameela [00:12:56] That it’s like it feels like, almost like, is it irresponsible to push someone who’s almost 80 to go and look through all of the horrific things that happened to them, knowing how overwhelming that was for me at 26?

Vienna [00:13:07] Totally.

Jameela [00:13:08] When I’d only lived a short life in which I could have been traumatized. I can’t imagine what it’s like to try and unpack eight decades of pain that you’ve buried.

Vienna [00:13:16] Oh, absolutely.

Jameela [00:13:16] And I’m not sure that it’s emotionally or physically responsible for me to push someone to do that. And so at that point, I’ve kind of gone, “Okay, I do not believe in a, in a, in a magical shift here.”

Vienna [00:13:28] No.

Jameela [00:13:28] And that’s all I mean, is that

Vienna [00:13:29] Yes, yes.

Jameela [00:13:29] So I’ve just kind of developed a

Vienna [00:13:30] Yes. And that’s right, and it’s and and your response is in response to what you know to be true. Right. And I think exactly how you’re describing it, and so beautifully said, because I think a lot of times people do push and I think there’s a, there’s a beauty to, to what you’re saying, which is that sometimes that can be the most harmful thing for someone at that point in life.

Jameela [00:13:52] Yeah. I see this in my friends. I see them wanting closure so badly with their parents and that closure and that admittance of of doing something wrong or traumatizing you, would mean so much to them. And I can see that from that point of view, but also you are talking about someone who’s in their 70s or 80s where this I mean, this the stress of therapy and especially at that age, especially when life slows down, and you’re lonelier than you have ever been, and you know, you have less of a support system. I, I’m not sure that my friends will be able to support even the the fallout of what that looks like. And I and and this fantasy of the moment of closure of someone saying to you and I understand the importance of accountability, but sometimes the road to accountability can actually be so much more traumatic in a way that no one ever really talks about.

Vienna [00:14:44] Right. That is why we can be acknowledged and witnessed by other people. It’s why we don’t need it to actually happen from the source of our pain. And honestly, thank goodness for that. But it’s a hard thing to grapple with. It would be life shattering for most people who are in their final chapter of life. Whether you call that the final 25% or whatever you, you know, whatever you think it might be to disrupt status quo.

Jameela [00:15:18] Okay.

Vienna [00:15:18] Is is deeply, deeply, deeply uncomfortable. And I think especially at that age, it is I think, again, your perspective on this is really a good one because you’re seeing I know that the, the, the glass would shatter in so many little pieces. And I’m not going to be here to put all of that back together. Right. And so in some ways, I need to allow you to hold the story that you need to hold in order to get by day in, day out.

Jameela [00:15:51] Yeah. It’s oh God, it’s such a, it’s it’s so delicate and and intimidating. Okay. Well thank you for that.

Vienna [00:15:59] Yeah.

Jameela [00:16:00] I think that’s really helpful, and, and, people should delve deeper into your work to see the actual practical advice of how you take those steps into your own hands because also, the last thing I want to say on it is that I think a lot of us had have at some point had the feeling of like, “Well, I shouldn’t have to do” as I kind of hinted earlier, like “I shouldn’t have to do the work to fucking fortify myself” because we, we don’t feel like that’s our job. It’s not our job. But there is, I have found at least, something nice about taking the agency and taking the accountability of the responsibility into my own hands and be like, “No, I shouldn’t have to do any of this, but I’m going to because it will bring me more peace.” And I feel as though your work in long form gives people the tools to actually do that work.

Vienna [00:16:48] Well, what’s the alternative?

Vienna [00:16:50] Exactly. We’re waiting for a miracle. Okay. So next up, another thing that I hear all of the time from my friends in long term relationships and this is again, come from your audience and my audience, which is what do you do if your partner is unwilling to do the work, you know, to work on themselves?

Vienna [00:17:14] Yeah.

Jameela [00:17:15] How do you how do you get them to?

Vienna [00:17:17] I know, I know, it’s a really hard one. Right? Because you’re doing it. You’re reading the books, you’re listening to the podcast, you’re going to therapy, and you can’t convince this person to come join you in it. And yeah, that can feel very demoralizing. One of the questions that I tend to ask people because I think that this is a really important reframe when you have somebody who’s resistant to, quote unquote, doing the work, whatever it is that that actually means for them, and you say, “Why won’t you, why can’t you, just come with me?” That’s a pretty good way for them to close off even more. The question it’s a it’s a question that therapists around the world ask the constraint question. What keeps you from wanting to join me here? What keeps you from wanting to go to therapy? Right. Because generally there is a fear, there’s an insecurity, there is a concern. And so instead of just pounding a person and saying, come on, please, if you don’t do this, the relationship is going to be over. You know, the threats to try to actually understand what it is that they’re trying to protect from our behaviors are self-protective. And so when there’s resistance there, it can be really important. And it’s listen, do, I also know that sometimes asking this question is going to be met with a “I don’t know or”

Jameela [00:18:30] Well, well it might be an I don’t know, but also, you know, something that some of my friends are going through right now is that one of my friends is like, “Oh, I don’t feel like I need to, like, I feel fine. I feel as though I have my life under control and you’re the one with more significant issues, and that’s great that you’re going to therapy. But I feel okay. I feel very balanced.” So then what do you do if that’s the answer you get? Whether it’s true or not.

Vienna [00:18:52] We are not that mismatched in partnership. I always smile when people say, “Well, you’re the one who has the bigger story, or you’re the one who has the issues. And I’m good over here.”

Jameela [00:19:05] Mhm.

Vienna [00:19:06] When you are in a committed relationship, and I don’t mean early on in dating or, you know, seeing if you like somebody or not. I mean, well, like once you’re in it with someone, we’re matching with people because the way that I like to explain it is, is that we have similar levels of irresolution.

Jameela [00:19:24] Mhm.

Vienna [00:19:24] Okay. Now that your resolution might look completely different. I remember somebody being like well my partner had like such a great childhood and like perfect parents and I’m the one who’s so screwed up and messed up and he keeps he, he just tries to support me through this. Like, what’s the part of him that needs to enter into that role with you to support you, love you, change, fix, solve, etc., etc.? Right. And I think it’s very important for us is that we’re not so mismatched. And what is an individual problem is a relational issue. We go so wrong. We go so wrong. So even if it’s not something that has to do with the irresolution between the couple, you know, one person is dealing with hardship in, let’s say that they’ve just lost a parent or they are struggling with,

Jameela [00:20:19] Addiction.

Vienna [00:20:19] Colleagues at work or addication, whatever. Right. Anything. If one person is telling you that there is a problem, we have to listen. I see this happen because I work with couples all the time.

Jameela [00:20:32] Because if anything, you just go there and confirm that there isn’t a problem.

Vienna [00:20:35] Sure. Right. Sure, you could do that. Yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:20:36] But also, but also it is expensive. Let’s just also acknowledge that

Vienna [00:20:40] Yeah.

Jameela [00:20:41] Therapy is not accessible for everyone, and so

Vienna [00:20:43] For sure. Yeah, but but we’re not just talking about therapy because we’re talking about getting people to do the work, which is in the comfort of your own home having a deep conversation with your partner. It’s opening up, right? It’s not just about going to work with a professional, right? It’s about saying, “I’m trying to have a conversation with you about something that is important to me and meaningful to me, and you’re closed down and shut down from it.” Right? That’s that’s the problem. Right? So absolutely true that there’s certain things that are going to be inaccessible for folks. But what is not inaccessible, right, is communication, listening, comprehending, hearing one another. And that’s why when I go back to what I was saying before, which is what keeps you from wanting to or being able to show up in this space, like, what do you believe will either happen to you or happen to us if you go there, right? Some people say couples therapy just makes things worse. Or let’s say your partner was someone who grew up as an emotional caretaker to one of their parents, right? They were responsible for keeping them happy, joyful, not depressed, whatever, right. And now they are in a place in their lives where they don’t want to be responsible for anybody else’s emotion. They’re not aware of it. It’s just a swing that they’ve done. Right. That’s our work is to understand what’s keeping me from joining you here. There’s an answer actually, if we go hunting for it. Right. Like what keeps me from joining you in the work that you are telling me is important to you? Right, because when you keep saying it’s not important to me, it’s important to you. But it doesn’t matter for me. I’m good over here. Right? Again, that is going to walk us down a line, a path that’s a relational problem, not just an individual problem. Right.

Jameela [00:22:33] Yeah.

Vienna [00:22:33] So, you know, I like that shift in trying to have that conversation and understand what they’re afraid of having happen. Oh, we’re going to open up Pandora’s box. Oh, it’s going to get worse. Oh, you’re asking me to do something that I don’t want to do, because I used to have to do it as a kid, and I’m exhausted and tired, and I don’t want to enter into that space, right, whatever the answer might be. But when we have that answer, then it opens up a possibility for a much deeper, beautiful conversation to be had. On a lighter note, right, like when people have some resistance to it, I do think sometimes saying, “Hey, I listened to this podcast that I thought was really interesting. Would you would you listen to it?” Or, “Hey, here’s a book that I found really inspiring. I, I think that you might find it inspiring,” and maybe my favorite is to offer your own awarenesses, aha moments, reflections for your own self. Right, to be the model, right. Because even you know you when you are part of a system, right? A couple is a system, right? When you’re a part of it, when one part of the system starts to shift and move something, the whole system feels it. It reverberates through always. Okay. And so when you’re saying, “Hey, in my therapy session today, my therapist would ask me about this, or I was reading this book and it prompted me to inquire about this. And here’s what I realized about myself. I’d never thought about it before.” And you share that with your partner, even if they’re like, not going to go there or really respond much, their hearing and listening to your self-inquiry is an invitation for them to self inquire as well. Do they? Maybe not because of some of the self-protective stuff, but some of the things that we can do in this space are we can reframe that question. We can model it. We can offer some material that is that is accessible and easy to digest. But there also comes a point in some relationships right where the arrows start to move in opposite directions. And, you know, if we have somebody who is resistant or unwilling to go there with us, right, there might be conversations at some point about what the future of the relationship actually, you know, holds and entails.

Jameela [00:24:41] I touched on addiction earlier, and I got a question in this morning around, what do you do if you are living with someone who has an addictive personality and maybe they have a very specific addiction, it could be anything from, I don’t know, gambling to screens to drugs to smoking, whatever. That from what I am learning from all of my friends when that occurs, is that, it’s an incredibly tricky dynamic within a relationship because you don’t want to shame that person. But it’s also and make them feel bad because those bad feelings might only trigger more of a likelihood to fall into addiction. But also it is impacting you. And so something I really wanted to ask you about is what do you do when the impact of someone else’s affliction or someone else’s trauma affects you and you don’t really want to make it their problem because they’re already fighting through so much? But what about all the caretaking you’ve had to do and all of the stress it’s taken and the toll it’s taken on you?

Vienna [00:25:48] Yeah.

Jameela [00:25:48] What what is a couple supposed to do with that?

Vienna [00:25:53] Yeah, there’s a lot of layers to it, as you suggested. And, you know, I would always also want to explore each person’s family of origin and where addiction showed up and, you know, the roles that they may have taken on, you know, in previous relationships as well. Oh gosh, it’s such there’s such fine lines and nuance to this conversation because a lot of the time, right, we still we love this person so much and we want to see them well. And you know, oh goodness, there’s so many different corners. Right. Is this person going for support or not? Are they aware of the issue or are they in denial? Do we have children? Do we not? Do we this do we, right? Like, oh my goodness, there are so many different considerations.

Jameela [00:26:37] Yeah.

Vienna [00:26:38] And that that a person is going to face, right, based on their own unique life and, you know, relationship experience. But I do think it’s, you know, there has to be community and support for the individual. I have always said that love can be unconditional, but relationships do have conditions to them.

Jameela [00:26:59] Mhm.

Vienna [00:26:59] And, you know, part of this is understanding what are the conditions for us to be able to move through this particular chapter in life right now. And that doesn’t have to mean we have to fast forward to the outcome or what’s going to happen five years from now or even next year, right? A chapter might be a week, a chapter might be a month, right? What are the conditions that have to be here right now? Which is are you getting support or help? Are you going to meetings? What’s happening? Are you communicating with me? Are you open? Are we discussing? Are you kicking me out? Do you have support? Have you told friends? Right. Like, there’s so many different questions that we might ask in this space to say I love you. I can still be here in this role, in this capacity, as long as x, y, z might be happening. Right. And it’s very hard, right? Because again, usually the love is very deep, right? It’s not because we get to a place where we no longer love somebody and we’re like, okay, I’m out of here, right? It’s not usually the case. And so we’re having to negotiate and really figure out, like, okay, while this is still present and still active, what has to happen in order for it to be okay for me to still be here because it is deeply impactful, the role that you’re stepping into, the narrative that you might be holding, either about yourself or about your partner. I’m not important and not, you know, that just there there can be a lot of codependency that happens out there. And again, if there is a repeat pattern, you know, and again, addiction doesn’t have to look like, “Oh, I had an alcoholic father and now I have an alcoholic partner.” Right, it doesn’t have to be apples to apples, but that there is a deep prioritization of the self that happens in that space. So you might have had somebody who was a workaholic as a parent, and now you have somebody who, you know, plays video games for eight hours, you know, at night after work, you know, it doesn’t it doesn’t have to be the same exact thing with the fact that you might be feeling deprioritized in that space, right, is one of the things that can really get activated. And so there has to be a caretaking of the self because so much of the focus will go to the person who’s struggling with the addiction.

Jameela [00:29:18] Totally, but but even if it’s not addiction, even if it’s like they’ve experienced a huge loss or a trauma, right? And you’re, or like a huge mental health episode.

Vienna [00:29:27] Yes.

Jameela [00:29:29] I understand that you have to self-soothe through that, but how are human beings, because it’s it’s just so complicated, how are you supposed to overcome, like the what it’s taken from you, right? How are you supposed to build that all back up? And because I think I see this so often in relationships that there is this kind of resentment, you know, whether it’s fair or not.

Vienna [00:29:55] Right.

Vienna [00:29:56] No, but it happens.

Jameela [00:29:57] Years of my life or you took all of my energy and now we’re and now, maybe everything’s okay. Whether it’s, you know, if it’s not okay, then it’s, you know, it’s really fraught, but if it maybe everything’s okay, but it’s like, but I’m still at this deficit because I gave all this to you. How, I know this is such a huge question, but but what are people, because I think this is something that we don’t talk about enough, right? We talk about the problems in relationships or we talk about the person who’s struggling, but we don’t talk about the people who support the people struggling very much.

Vienna [00:30:22] Right. No. And that’s exactly it. Right. Is that the person who’s struggling tends to be the one under the light, and the one who’s doing the supporting is not getting a lot of the attention and the care and the acknowledgment. And it’s why the support and the community around that person is just as important. They may not be able to say, “Hey, I am struggling too” to the person who is struggling, whether it’s the addiction or they’re going through their own grief process about something or whatever it might be. Right? But it’s like I am having an experience here as well. And you’re right, we don’t talk about this enough. And it’s a very important, critical thing for us to be discussing because there is one individual who might become forgotten and we forget, right? As a society, as friends, you know, as family members. Oh, what has this been like for you, too? We have to be an advocate for our own selves. But also if you’re listening as a friend, right? Or as a sibling. Right too. When, if you know that someone’s partner is going through something hard, right? When is the last time that you’ve actually asked the other person, right, what the experience has been like for them? Right. To inquire. So again, we do need to be our own advocates to say, “Hey, I’m having a big experience amidst all of this.” And the focus is on, you know, partner A over here, but I need support and help and care too. And so whether that comes from family, friends, community, if you have access to a therapist, fantastic. Right. To have a space where you get to share the impact and the experience that you’re having, without that, without question resentment will build.

Jameela [00:31:57] Yeah.

Vienna [00:31:57] And I think that there is oftentimes listen, sometimes in partnership, you know, one person is in the forefront and somebody else is is back, but but there’s going to be a shift. And it is vital that the person who is in the forefront is able to turn back to the other person and say, “Tell me about your experience. I know I took up a lot of space there. Tell me about what that was like for you,” because one of the things that helps dissolve resentment is acknowledgment. We were talking about this before with family, right? One of the things that helps dissolve resentment is acknowledgment, right, is is tending to inquiring, showing your care, showing your appreciation for what that person held, withstood during a very challenging time. And to say your experience matters just as much as my experience mattered.

Jameela [00:32:50] So when someone is going through that, and I say that as someone who’s been the carer for someone who’s going through a problematic period, and I’ve also been the person going through a problematic period.

Vienna [00:32:59] Yes.

Jameela [00:33:01] But in all these patterns that I see, it can be very painful for the person, especially if they’ve had like a mental health issue or like an addiction issue, etc. they can feel ashamed and then hearing about how much stress they’ve put someone they love through,

Vienna [00:33:21] I know.

Jameela [00:33:22] Can be incredibly difficult or triggering for them because often self shame that probably sent them into a spiral of self-harm in the first place. So I think that’s what makes people quite avoidant of really

Vienna [00:33:32] Oh, it does.

Jameela [00:33:33] Looking at that accountability of like what someone else had to hold for you while you were struggling. Well, I agree with you. Totally.

Vienna [00:33:41] Yeah. Yeah.

Jameela [00:33:42] That accountability would hugely, it’s it’s it’s all I ever wanted as a carer was just someone to be like, “Thank you for doing that. That must have been incredibly hard to balance your own life, your own mental health and then support mine” and I, it would have meant the world.

Vienna [00:33:56] Yes.

Jameela [00:33:57] But how do you get that out of someone?

Vienna [00:33:59] Well, but that that is the continued work because we know again will will prompt it here the alternative is what? Right, as that resentment stays. And so yes, and it really all of our questions are merging really beautifully together because we’re, we’re using things from each to build upon one another. When I’ve talked about feedback before, right when we go into a shame spiral, guilt spiral, embarrassment spiral, whatever it is, we cannot actually be present for the other person. We are having to be in a self-protective place. It is vital, as human beings, that we build a muscle that is able to receive feedback, without that then being associated with our worth or our value as a human being. Easier said than done, I know, and yet still a muscle that we need to build and strengthen, right? We can sit here all day and say, easier said than done, easier said than done. This is the hard stuff. And yeah, that’s the invitation. We have to do this work so that we can get to a place where I can stand in front of you and say, I know that my stuff impacted you significantly, I feel ashamed of it. It’s hard for me to hold this, and also I can hold myself up enough at this point, right? I have resolved enough to get to this place where I can hear your feedback. Not unkind feedback, right? But I can hear your feedback that tells me what this experience was like for you. And instead of needing to care, take myself. Oh my gosh, I can’t believe I did that to you. I’m this, I’m that, I can actually be connected and present to your experience.

Jameela [00:35:41] You can put yourself in someone else’s shoes, right?

Vienna [00:35:43] Yeah.

Jameela [00:35:43] I’ve always loved feedback because I consider it just to be, it’s Intel. It’s it’s data for me, so it’s like, okay. And even if I don’t totally agree with it, I can see that I

Vienna [00:35:54] Sure.

Vienna [00:35:54] I can’t completely discount that person’s experience of me.

Vienna [00:35:57] What’s true about this

Jameela [00:35:58] And there’s normally no, not, you know, like, you know, where there’s smoke there’s fire. But I, I, I’ve never had a a big reaction to rejection in that way. There’s a tricky dynamic I saw play out in a lot of my friends over the pandemic, especially when people were really kind of locked in with each other, which is that the partners and like listen, I don’t think it’s completely gendered, but the gender in which I’ve seen the pattern of this in stories I’ve read about online, etc., is that the, the if a man were to go through something huge, and maybe embarrassing or in some way emasculating, you know, he struggled in a way that we do not allow men to struggle in our society because we have such a sick society.

Vienna [00:36:47] Yeah.

Jameela [00:36:48] Upon recognizing the wreckage of what they’ve caused, they feel on some level too embarrassed

Vienna [00:36:54] Mhm.

Jameela [00:36:55] To to every time they look at that person, they feel embarrassed. And so now it’s made them not want to look at that person again. Now, this is in no way me being like, don’t confront, don’t ask for someone to be accountable for you because they might not be attracted to you anymore. That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that I think we also need like a follow up for, and I think this should be your next book, to be perfectly honest, as your agent, which I now am, I think this should be your next book.

Vienna [00:37:21] Taking notes.

Jameela [00:37:21] And I think this book would be really helpful of like of the knock on effect. Right?

Vienna [00:37:26] Yeah.

Jameela [00:37:26] I would love to read that book. I think a lot of people would, but there is this pattern that does exist, in which sometimes it is so mortifying or embarrassing what you’ve done that you just want to run away and you see a lot of relationships end, and then the person who’s put that person back fucking together.

Vienna [00:37:47] I know.

Jameela [00:37:48] Is now like, “Oh, great. So I just patched you up. And now you’re moving

Vienna [00:37:51] For the next person.

Jameela [00:37:52] On to someone else, right?” I always referred to that as as like, I have some friends who seem to have the pattern of that of like, they just seem to be the one before the one. Always.

Vienna [00:38:02] Always. Yeah.

Jameela [00:38:03] And so what the fuck do we do with that? Haha.

Vienna [00:38:08] Haha. Well, this is each individual’s confrontation with their own shame. And what you are describing is something that does play out all of the time. Right? Is that I’m so ashamed

Jameela [00:38:18] You hear about it. I’ve been hearing about it for like 20 years from people. Yeah.

Vienna [00:38:21] Yeah. And you know, it’s I talk about this in the book too, right, the worthiness, which is where I think, you know, our worth is so connected to our performance or perfectionism or how we show up in the world. Right? There’s like all of these conditions to us feeling worthy or valuable as human beings, and it’s often in the illusion of it all. And yet when that comes crumbling down, right, we’re left in this space of nothingness, shame, you know, disappointment in the self, in the in maybe even just the belief that, you know, who would who would love me, right? Who would choose me after this? And then you have that partner who’s saying, “Me, I’ve been here choosing you and showing up.”

Jameela [00:39:00] Yeah.

Vienna [00:39:00] But it doesn’t compute

Jameela [00:39:01] I just want you to recognize what I went through.

Vienna [00:39:02] Yes. But it doesn’t compute because I think a lot of times in that space, we feel so embarrassed, so ashamed, so mortified by ourselves that the easiest thing for us to do is to leave or exit a relationship. It often shows up because we do not feel worthy or deserving of that person. I’m not saying this happens all of the time, but in my work, what I see oftentimes, is that when somebody is leaving a relationship, you know, when we talk about like sabotaging a relationship is a self-protective mechanism, again, it’s all, everything is self-protective, right, when we actually get to the nitty gritty of it. And people will leave relationships because they don’t feel deserving of that person.

Jameela [00:39:49] Mhm.

Vienna [00:39:49] They don’t feel good enough for that person.

Jameela [00:39:52] Maybe they need someone else to stroke their ego or

Vienna [00:39:55] It could be.

Jameela [00:39:56] The absence of looking at someone who reminds them of their shortfalling.

Vienna [00:39:59] Yes.

Jameela [00:39:59] Shortcomings sorry, their shortcomings.

Vienna [00:40:01] Yeah. Yeah. But I think that that’s you know, one of the things, again, is that we don’t teach people how to pull themselves back up from shame. Right? We don’t teach people how to trust and know in their core that we are still worthy and deserving, even when we disappoint others, even when we have quote unquote failings, whatever that might be. You know, even if we struggle at a point in our lives like that, we are still deserving and worthy of connection and attachment and love and presence. Right? And when you look back and again, if we kind of weave in a little bit of my work, right, it’s like to look back and see the foundation of that. Did you learn that going through hard things as a child was something that damaged attachment, love, connection, presence, calm, support, validation, affirmation in your family? Or was it something that was available to you no matter how difficult you might have been as a kiddo, or no matter what challenge you know you had to face with the adults in your life. You know, it’s like you look at the foundation of attachment as such a core part of what it is that we’re talking about. And I think a lot of times when people have ruptures in attachment, you know, when they’re children and I, you know, thinking like, can we get through hard things together? And for me as a child, to still know that I am loved and connected to you, that there isn’t a threat, that there’s no there isn’t, you know, punishment through giving me the silent treatment or disconnecting from me or not, you know, not speaking to me for weeks on end. But it’s like I know that all of that still stays available. I’m not talking about the absence of consequences, I’m talking about the presence of connection and

Jameela [00:41:43] The lack of abandonment. Yeah.

Vienna [00:41:44] Right. And so when you have the experience that tells you, unless you present to the world this way, fill in the blank whatever it needs to be straight A’s phenomenal athlete. You’ve got to look a certain way. Your body’s got to be this. You have to be the strongest. You never show emotion. You can only show anger if you’re a man, whatever it is, unless you’re showing up that way, that is the only way for you to trust and to have connection and love. And when you don’t do that, it’s no longer there. And then you grow up and you’re an adult and you go through some shit and something hits the fan and you’re in your shame and you’re reminded, right, I was not showing up perfectly. And so now it’s not available. Wait, this person is staying. That’s confusing. I should leave.

Jameela [00:42:26] Really interesting. Something that I found in my relationship super helpful is we just sort of got all of our ten year shit out the way in our first 18 months together.

Vienna [00:42:36] Frontload it.

Jameela [00:42:37] And just like, yeah, we we really were like overachievers of trauma in which we decided to just show our ugliest sides to each other, straight up top, because I think there was a part of us that was like, you couldn’t possibly love me. So I’m going to, and every time you seem to love me, I’m going to show you something even uglier and that will drive you away. And we both did that with each other. And then, unfortunately, then we’d seen all this ugliness and were like, I don’t know what to I don’t know how to unsee a lot of this. And I’ve spoken a lot on this podcast about EMDR therapy, which is eye movement desensitization reprocessing therapy. I don’t know if you have done work within that realm, but I, I have found it to be extremely interesting because what it does, it sort of breaks thought pattern, thought patterns. It breaks the feeling attached to certain memories, or, you know, loops. And so what that did for me is that when we came out of that sort of year and a half, two years of shit, the magic was being subdued because there was just all the space was taken up with memories, bad memories.

Vienna [00:43:42] Yeah.

Jameela [00:43:42] And and, you know, sometimes when, when you’re both in therapy or one of you in therapy, change is happening. And even if we can intellectually acknowledge that change, we can’t emotionally, there’s a self-protective part of our brain that is always looking for confirmation bias. You know, that is always looking, like that can’t acknowledge the change, right? It’s like I still remember you when you were imbalanced. And I’m holding that against you now when you’ve done all this work to change and I’m not doing it on purpose, it’s subconscious.

Vienna [00:44:13] Right.

Jameela [00:44:14] And so when we recognized that that was happening, we both went to EMDR to remember all of the worst things we thought about each other and say them again and again and again. You know, while watching this light. And I hope anyone will go out there and investigate what EMDR is, but we did the exercise while imagining, by remembering the worst narratives we had in each other, and we were able to break them within a matter of a few sessions.

Vienna [00:44:41] Wow.

Jameela [00:44:41] And doing that meant that we were able to revisit the relationship as I am meeting you now, as the person you are now.

Vienna [00:44:49] Yes.

Jameela [00:44:50] Like we are able to, we’re able to meet at where we’ve gotten ourselves to rather than who we were at our worst. Does that make sense?

Vienna [00:44:59] Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And I think it’s about our nervous system being able to trust it. You know, it’s like we can know that, like you said, that someone’s doing all of this work or they’re a quote unquote changed individual, but our nervous systems don’t know that.

Jameela [00:45:18] Mm. And we and we mistake that for choice. Right. When someone doesn’t let something go.

Vienna [00:45:23] Right.

Jameela [00:45:23] Of course maybe someone’s choosing not to and they’re using it to manipulate you. But the vast majority I think of situations where you feel like someone’s still holding an old version of you against yourself.

Vienna [00:45:32] Right.

Jameela [00:45:32] It’s normally because our brains are designed to protect us, so it sees you’re, like we’re looking always for patterns and things that remind us, and things that will trigger a memory of this bad things that we know to protect ourselves from it. So is it possible that even just looking at someone’s face reminds you. It’s like, well, I know that face, and that face is something that I’ve had some really bad times with.

Vienna [00:45:52] Oh, yeah.

Jameela [00:45:53] And now I need to put my guard up.

Vienna [00:45:54] Absolutely. It can be an expression. It can be a smell. It could be lots of energy.

Jameela [00:46:00] Tone. Yeah.

Vienna [00:46:00] Right. Like, if you’ve ever, you know, think about when, like, old school music comes on and you’re like, I’m 17 again, you know, in this car with my girlfriends, like, right, it’s like it brings us, we know the senses bring us to lots of different things. And it’s also, you know, you’re talking about it within the relationship, but, you know, think about how many times people say like, “Well, I’m not your father. I’m not your mother.” You know, it’s like, and you’re like, “Yes, correct. And also my nervous system doesn’t care.”

Jameela [00:46:28] Yeah.

Vienna [00:46:28] Like, it doesn’t actually matter because we can’t rationalize reason logic our way out of what is a somatic emotional experience. Right. And so I always say that, I know we use the word healing all the time, and it gets tossed around and it’s like, okay, there’s like just so many different paths of healing and finding, you know, what works for you is a really beautiful thing.

Jameela [00:46:53] We can call it recovery.

Vienna [00:46:54] Right. Recovery. Right. But it’s like when we do that work, what it offers us is choice because you are describing it before, right. It’s subconsciously I’m responding to this or unconsciously I’m responding to that. Right. It’s our systems are designed to protect us.

Jameela [00:47:12] And it’s important to do. It’s important to do because otherwise the other person feels like, well, what the fuck did I do all that work for? Why have I put all this effort in to be a better partner if you still are holding me

Vienna [00:47:24] Yes.

Jameela [00:47:24] Accountable for, and if they’ve they’ve if they’ve been accountable, if they’ve done the work, if they’ve said they’re sorry. I don’t think you should do it until there’s been actual tangible change in accountability. But once they have, how long are you going to beat someone over the head? And is that actually going to give you the relationship or the dynamic or the person that you want?

Vienna [00:47:45] But that’s it, right? It’s like, you know, the the other partner, you know, when I talk about the there’s five wounds that I talk about in the book, and one of them is the trust wound. And, you know, when you’ve had ruptures in trust and that can be, you know, some of the obvious stuff that might come to mind, like an infidelity or you saw your parents go through that, or just, you know, straight up lies or whether it’s just something that is a little bit more subtle, like someone promising you something and not following through on it. You know, it’s like you can hear a partner say, ‘I’ve changed. I promise this, that and the other.’ And when you have had a historical experience that says, well, we know people’s words, but they don’t often match actions. And I think to your point is, but can you make space for the action to match the word right? Can you actually make space and start to trust something here to see, okay, are the actions lining up? Can you be present and connected to what’s happening here? But it points to the irresolution for the other person. Right. Which is that I struggle to trust because there is a history here and there is a story here, and I need to go to that place so that I can now meet you in your evolved and growth space that you have earned based on the work that you’ve done. Right. And so it’s really, listen, I can imagine that this sounds a little complex, you know, to somebody listening. But it’s it’s so beautiful. And I think when we have awareness of this, which is what keeps me from being able to trust you in this moment? Right. Oh, there’s a history, there’s a story there that I actually have to turn to and spend time with and resolve so that I can meet you in this moment. Right? That’s the beauty. That’s the gift. That is how we grow together. There’s a, there’s an Ernest Hemingway quote that says, “The best way to know if you can trust somebody is to trust them.” And I love that quote, because I don’t believe the suggestion is to recklessly trust someone, but to enter into a space where our eyes are wide open, where we are, you know, bringing our discernment certainly forward where we’re looking around, but we know again what the alternative is, which is not trusting people or not trusting ourselves. And we have to move in that direction. Otherwise there’s no forward motion that can happen. Otherwise we stay stuck. And I think that’s the reality of life and relationships and healing or not healing is that we can either turn towards the stuff or we’re not going to and we’re going to keep repeating cycles, or we’re going to stay stuck in something and we’re going to be frustrated at life, and we’re going to fold our arms and say, “Why does this keep happening to me?” And that’s the invitation, right? Is to look at what is unresolved from the past so that the door’s open to trusting ourselves, trusting others, showing up in life differently.

Jameela [00:50:39] Right. So EMDR therapy, something you would recommend to people?

Vienna [00:50:43] Yeah, it’s not something that I do, but it is. I hear so many stories. I obviously know what it is. I obviously have a lot of colleagues who do it. And I think it is particularly supportive for folks who have who have trauma. I think anything that, you know, moves us into our bodies, right? We know when it comes to trauma, it’s like top down, bottom up, right. It’s like you cannot think your way through this stuff that’s why there’s a limitation to what talk therapy can do. And I think when people feel stuck in that space, we have to move into a space where we’re bringing in Somatics, and EMDR is a wonderful resource for that.

Jameela [00:51:19] And what is Somatics just for anyone who hasn’t heard that term before?

Vienna [00:51:21] Right. So instead of thinking our way through something right, we’re moving into feeling, experiencing our way through something. And so whether we’re doing EMDR, whether, you know, there’s a lot of like hands on therapy, like body work that people do that like somatic experiencing, right, with those types of things.

Jameela [00:51:44] So I’ve heard about this where someone’s explained it to me as like, you know, when we sometimes when trauma is maybe overwhelming for the brain, we push it down into our body.

Vienna [00:51:53] Yeah.

Jameela [00:51:53] And I, I, I don’t really know what that means. Like, I accept it as a sentence and then I go around saying it. But I’m like, is it in my tits? Like, where where is it? You know, like those, where is it? Is that why they’re big? Like, are they full of trauma? Is it like, what’s what’s that? What’s happening? Haha!

Vienna [00:52:16] That makes perfect sense. Yes, it’s there.

Jameela [00:52:17] How do you how do you get it out, you know?

Vienna [00:52:19] Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah. Right. It’s it’s something that, and I actually appreciate that you said that you’re like, I accept the line. Right? That it’s, you know, that it lives

Jameela [00:52:28] It’s not in my ass. There’s nothing in there. It’s it’s it’s just it doesn’t exist so yeah.

Vienna [00:52:32] This is the this is the largest area so it must be.

Vienna [00:52:35] I’m storing all of my childhood trauma up top like nothing’s happening.

Vienna [00:52:38] Yeah. There’s there’s a lot of work, around poly vagal stuff. And I don’t want this to become

Jameela [00:52:45] What’s that? No, no, no, okay.

Vienna [00:52:45] Something that is like, no,  overwhelming. And it’s also not something that I would consider myself an expert in. But even, like you said, go look up these terms, really understand, right, how the body you know, what the body does when we are face to face with a threat. I’m sure the majority of people have heard about a fight response, a freeze response, a flight response, and then we’ve also thrown in the the fawn response. But what happens in our nervous systems, right, when our bodies are having to respond in that way and, you know, when you’re facing trauma, anything that is more overwhelming than what our system can process in a moment, right, then our then our nervous systems are responding accordingly, right?

Jameela [00:53:34] Yeah.

Vienna [00:53:34] And you know, that’s not our minds thinking, oh, you know, there’s a bear charging me what shall I do? Right. Like we didn’t sit down and journal what the next steps shall be. Right. We, our body responded to it. Right. And our body responds to anything that we perceive as a threat. Or we’re constantly scanning whether things are safe, whether they’re dangerous, or whether they’re life threatening.

Jameela [00:54:05] Yeah. And and understanding like understanding neuro neuroscience of it all. Like understanding in the most basic way ever, but understanding that we are so unaware of our wiring. We are so unaware of things that can make us feel unsafe. You know, we’re now starting to learn in a more mainstream way about how even seeing negative comments online can make us feel like we are we are under threat. But even something that makes you feel ashamed makes you feel under threat. Like there are so many things that can make you feel unsafe in the moment. Not just something that’s literally jeopardizing your safety

Vienna [00:54:38] Correct.

Jameela [00:54:39] Emotionally unsafe, and that can trigger the same response. And so the more we understand our wiring cause the reason I say this is that some people I’ve spoken to about EMDR, I’ve noticed them think that it’s like a shortcut or a cheat or I’m trying to or I’m lazy, you know, and that’s why I’m trying to do the quick version. And that’s not it, because I’m very open to talk therapy, and I did both. And what I would do is I would use talk therapy to get to the root of the problem. And then when I had the root of the problem, I would understand that neuroscience is real, that that some things are just that my brain is some sort of a machine and some things aren’t working, and I need to kind of reroute those things that aren’t working. So I just want anyone out there who might be thinking about googling or like looking into EMDR or EMDR therapists is that it’s not a replacement for talk therapy, but it is an unbelievable additional tool for something like trauma, because trauma is so, so hard to undo, because it’s hard to even find, in you. You know, we can sometimes, you know, we talk about the symptoms and the cause, like, it’s sometimes it’s easy to find the symptoms but finding the real root of and the roots beneath the roots of how it, like, has ingrained itself in your identity.

Vienna [00:55:45] Yes.

Jameela [00:55:46] You don’t have to do all of that work. Feel free to find things that that can support

Vienna [00:55:53] Yes.

Jameela [00:55:54] The the hard homework that you are doing.

Vienna [00:55:56] Right but iIt’s like how I’m going to work with my body in the moments and in which I feel under duress or threatened. Right. Because if I try to think my way through it, there’s going to be a problem there, because that’s when we come face to face with, well, I should just be X, or they did say that they’re not my father or right. It’s like it goes to that space. And so our bodies need to experience safety. We can’t just say, “You are safe.” That’s not enough. Our bodies need to experience that. And that’s, you know, whether that’s being working with someone like a clinician, right, where you do feel safe with them and you’re able to work through things, whether that means going out in nature, whether that means knowing what breathing technique to utilize in a particular moment. Right. It’s like you have to be with your body and you have you have to experience safety. You cannot convince yourself of safety.

Jameela [00:56:57] Yeah. You mentioned earlier about like the importance of acknowledgment and how acknowledgment, how acknowledgment can, you know, lessen resentment.

Vienna [00:57:05] Yes.

Jameela [00:57:06] That’s a huge thing that you’re bringing up here because sometimes we’re like, why do you need the why do we need the acknowledgment? What is it in us that needs the acknowledgment? What the acknowledgment of what you have put someone else through does is it says, I recognize there was a really unhealthy balance here, and in recognizing it and saying you are going to make a huge effort to like because you really understand what the other person went through and you want to hear about it and you want to face it, it means it’s less likely to happen again. That’s why acknowledgment is so important, because it it it it calls out the pattern.

Vienna [00:57:40] Yes.

Jameela [00:57:40] And and makes you feel like, okay, this person really sees it and really gets it, so therefore is really going to be able to make an effective effort not to do this again.

Vienna [00:57:50] Yes. When people ask me, is it okay to give somebody a second chance or third chance or fourth or whatever, however many chances, right. The question that I want to know is, can you, the other person, share with me what what it is you’ve learned about yourself, how it is you’ve grown,

Jameela [00:58:07] And what’s doing to be different.

Vienna [00:58:08] And what it is you’ve had to resolve, right? And like, what is the work that you’ve done because second chances without growth are just patterns, period. Right. And so unless someone is able to acknowledge, hey, I spent time understanding that the reason why I show up this way in our relationship is because I grew up in a family system where bah bah bah bah. Right. And you’re like, here’s the story, here’s where I’m standing,

Jameela [00:58:31] Here’s the map.

Vienna [00:58:32] Here’s what I’ve done right. Here’s what I’ve done so that I can show up differently because if you can’t bring forward that acknowledgment, right, of your own self, no, don’t even worry about me yet. Right. But the acknowledgment of your own self, your own story, right, then I don’t think a second or third chance makes a whole lot of sense, because you’re probably just going to enter into the same dance. And so, yeah, the acknowledgment, right, a heartfelt, not a B.S. one, not a like, oh, I read the script, right, a heartfelt, authentic acknowledgment dissolves resentment and it also increases safety.

Jameela [00:59:06] Amazing. Thank you so much. Today has been so interesting. And it all kind of it just felt very organic, and it was really nice to be able to get into the weeds of something with someone who’s so experienced. So everyone, you can go and find Vienna’s book and go follow her online and follow all of her work. And and thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it.

Vienna [00:59:29] Thank you for having me. Loved being here.

Jameela [00:59:36] Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimmie Gregory, and Amelia Chappelow. And the beautiful music that you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. And if you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. It’s such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording, sharing what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners.

Listener [01:00:11] I weigh the knowledge I have acquired throughout my life so far. I weigh all the beautiful memories I’ve had the luck to experience. I weigh all the amazing people in my life and all that’s yet to come.