EP. 97 — Why “Critical Thinking” Can’t Beat Misinformation, and How to Fight It with Michael Caulfield

Adam: [00:00:22] Hello, welcome to Factually!, I’m Adam Conover. Let’s start with a couple pieces of housekeeping. If you are shocked and horrified by some of the events of the last week, I am right there with you. And I think it’s incumbent upon all of us that we do everything that we can to push back against the wave of hatred against Asian-Americans and other marginalized communities that we’ve seen over the past year. If you’re looking for someplace to donate, I know that you’ve probably seen lots of lots of lists where to donate to help out. I’ll tell you where I chose to donate, chose to donate to Red Canary Song and to Asian Americans Advancing Justice in Atlanta two groups that support the rights of sex workers and of Asian-Americans, respectively, in Atlanta and around the country. And just as a little addendum, there’s been a lot of talk once again about sex addiction this past week, as though sex addiction were an excuse for the hateful, violent, racist behavior that we saw and as though it were even something that exists in the way that many people think it does. If you’re curious to hear more about that, you might go back and listen to the interview I did with Nicole Proust’s a few months ago titled The Myth of Sex Addiction. You can find that in our archives wherever you get your podcasts. Now, on a different note, I do want to remind you that we are doing a special set of premium episodes for Stitcher Premium called Questions and Adam, it’s a fantastic name, I know, in which I and a comedian guest take your questions and answer them. If you want to listen to those episodes, you can subscribe at Stitcher Premium. And if you want to send us some questions for us to answer and please send them. Even if you don’t subscribe to Stitcher Premium, I want to see your questions. You can send them to factually@AdamConover.net. I truly do read the emails and your question truly might be answered on the show. Now with that, let’s talk about this week’s show. We are flooded with misinformation in our society right now. From commercials to partisan media to straight up lies proliferating on social media, it seems like there is just an avalanche of false information deluging over our eyeballs and into our brains every single moment of every single day. And the response to this, what we often are told that we need is more media literacy, media literacy. We need to teach people how to sift good information from bad information. They need to be more literate about the media that they consume. Now, by any measure, we are not doing a very good job of teaching media literacy. A 2016 study found that 80 percent of middle schoolers couldn’t tell the difference between a real news story and sponsored advertiser content. We’re teaching kids how to read, but we’re not teaching them how to not read bullshit, basically. And this is a problem because having the skill to figure out what is true to separate truth from false is incredibly important. In a democracy, it’s important that the populace believes true things and doesn’t believe false things in order to make educated decisions. If everyone believes that drinking clean water is bad for you and oil spills are good for you, we might have some bad public policy decisions made that might be detrimental to our society. We fundamentally need the inside of our heads to match what is going on outside of our heads. And critically, we need most people to agree on what is going on outside of their heads. If citizens in a democracy are operating under completely different ideas of reality, if they can’t agree on even the most basic things, you get an increasingly fractious and conflict ridden society. You get pretty much the society that we’re living in right now is what I’m trying to say. And so there’s a lot of talk about how to fight this. And media literacy comes up again and again. We should teach people to think critically and do their own research. We hear that over and over again, don’t we? If we just teach people to think harder, to think critically, to do their own research, well, that could solve the problem. Here’s the problem, though. We are starting to realize that those things might not actually work and in fact, could be counterproductive. Let’s take that idea of doing your own research. For example, you know, when I was a kid, doing your own research meant going to the library, finding a book, maybe even asking a reference librarian who could lead you to the most established experts on the topic, who could give you a quick overview of the subject matter. All of that good stuff. Right. Now, though, doing your own research for most people means opening a browser window, go into a search engine and reading some random shit on the Internet. You just type in those search terms and see what you get and start reading that Wiki How article or Tik Tok or whatever it is that comes up. The cliche of telling someone to, quote, do their own research is an easy way, we now know to actually lead someone further into misinformation, they might fall for something untrue or they might seek out information that confirms their previous belief. Right. They search for “are vaccines dangerous?” And end up on the vaccine conspiracy sites because that’s what they were looking for. The fact is, if we just tell random members of the public who are not experts in the field or are even trained in research skills to quote, do their own research, we can end up sending them to more bullshit sites, giving the lies home field advantage. Or what about the call for critical thinking where we tell people when they’re confronted with the information they’re not sure about, they should look at it super closely and really try to figure out what their statistical errors or their lies embedded in the text. Well, that can be just as counterproductive and it certainly isn’t always an antidote to misinformation. See, what recent research tells us is that the more time you spend digging into misinformation, the more time you spend reading it closely, really looking between the lines well, the more time you’re giving it to worm its way into your brain. Misinformation wants access to your brain. That is what it is. It is basically a zombie that’s trying to get in there and eat your brain and turn you into a zombie, too. OK, so combating it doesn’t mean thinking harder or better about misinformation. It means something else entirely controlling our attention so that misinformation doesn’t get too much of it. But so how do we do this? How do we deal with misinformation? And most critically, how do we teach others? How do we teach young people to combat misinformation? Well, to help answer, our guest today is Michael Caulfield. He’s a digital information literacy expert at Washington State University. And he did the research on critical thinking that I was just telling you about. And he has a veritable cornucopia of misinformation, fighting techniques and ideas to share with you today. I found this interview fascinating, and I know you will, too. Please welcome Michael Caulfield. [00:07:24][422.5]

Adam: [00:07:27] Michael, thank you so much for being here. [00:07:28][1.3]

Michael: [00:07:29] Oh, my pleasure. [00:07:29][0.3]

Adam: [00:07:30] So you study and you write about misinformation. You write specifically that critical thinking isn’t enough to tackle misinformation. What do you mean by that? [00:07:38][8.6]

Michael: [00:07:39] OK, well, that’s a that’s a whole can of worms to start. [00:07:42][3.1]

[00:07:42] Oh, we’re jumping right into Michael. [00:07:43][1.0]

Michael: [00:07:43] OK. Well, I mean, let’s let’s let’s put an important qualifier on that. Critical thinking, you know, as currently taught. Right. And and to get into what I mean by that, it might be best to just talk about how I got into this,. [00:07:58][14.1]

Adam: [00:07:58] Please. [00:07:58][0.0]

Michael: [00:07:59] Back in 2010, I was working for a small college and we decided that we wanted to have outcomes where students would learn what we were calling civic digital literacy. And and one of those was critical consumption. Can they tell what’s, you know, true and false on the Internet? Can they tell what’s reliable and unreliable on the Internet? Can they do that? Right. And so we decided to assess these. And so we went through the normal training with the students. So a model called CRAAP. I’m not a fan of currently called CRAAP two A’s in that and at the end we assess them as to whether they got any better and they didn’t get better at it. In some ways they got worse. Right in the when I see critical thinking isn’t helping us with misinformation, I’m talking about the sort of thing that’s usually done in a university environment, a lot of times in a K-12 environment and where critical thinking is associated with something washes up in front of you. Some sort of document, video, something like that, in the idea of critical thinking as we’re often taught it is well, look very deeply at this thing, like examine it, turn it around in your hands, figure out, does this document use scholarly language? Does it have footnotes? You know what’s the logical argument of it? These sorts of things. And we when we do that, what we’re doing is we’re immediately pushing people to deeply engage with something when they have no idea what the provenance of it is, no idea where came from. And additionally, they don’t necessarily know where in sort of the universe of discourse, in the universe of claims this particular claim stands is I’m not saying that nobody should adopt a minority viewpoint. And that was one of the misperceptions of a recent article. I have a lot of viewpoints that are probably minority viewpoints in a discipline, but I have to know to start, hey, you know, the majority of this discipline actually disagrees with you. Like it’s important for me to understand where I’ve landed. Right. And so when I say critical thinking doesn’t help this idea that we are going to solve misinformation by getting people to pay deeper attention to every piece of information that washes up in front of them, it’s not sustainable because you don’t have that much attention. [00:10:24][145.1]

Adam: [00:10:25] Or much time or that much expertize. [00:10:26][1.4]

Michael: [00:10:27] And you’re also giving you’re also giving disinformers what they want, which is your deep attention. You’re given that you’re giving them a shot, you’re giving them an audition. Right. And so we have to move away from this as sort of the first step after you figure out where something is has come from, right after you figure out, hey, this is where this claim sort of sits in the universe discourse, hey, this is the strengths and weaknesses of this particular source, then maybe you choose to go in deeper. Right. But we’re we’re too often we’re skipping that first step and we’re immediately reacting and engaging in the way we teach students to quote unquote critically think is actually telling them that that’s that’s what we want to do. And we want we want to get away from that. [00:11:13][46.0]

Adam: [00:11:14] Like, if you this makes a lot of sense. Like if you or if you’re confronting for the first time, especially if you’re a young person, you’re 17 years old, you find some website on the Kennedy assassination that says he was assassinated by aliens or whatever, and then you’re like, OK, think critically about it, really look carefully at it. And you have never you actually have never read the mainstream history of JFK. You don’t know the general dialog around the conspiracy theories. All you’re going to do is look at this one source closer that could actually pull you in a little bit. You’re like ok look at it really close. Oh, wow. It seems to well, I don’t know about this part, but it’s this part makes sense and you might get sucked in a little. [00:11:52][38.0]

Michael: [00:11:52] So one of the things we do is we pre and we post test students when we run them through the the different sort of training we do, which I guess we’ll talk about a little bit later. But what we see in the pre test is a lot of students simply apply what we would call a plausibility test. Does this seem like something that would happen? And and while that is good, if you have experience in an area right, you’re pretty good at determining the plausibility of things that you’re intimately familiar with it’s not really good when things are sort of outside your realm of experience. So, I mean, if I was to ask you, does it seem plausible that most vaccines take five, six, 10 years to develop and this vaccine, takes one year to do it? Does that seem plausible to you? Well, why would you think that you would have the ability to judge the plausibility? You have no experience with with with vaccines, vaccine development, no deep knowledge of why one vaccine would take five years. What that time and yet you’re told hey, critically, think about this critically think about this. You’re simply not equipped for a question of that complexity until until you get a little more basis in the reasons behind it. But yet again, this is what we see that students are. And they think that this is critical thinking. They think they think you’re one of the things we see from a lot of students is this. Well, if it if this has happened I would have heard about it already, and this is one of the big plausibility checks and that works for a lot of things like, you know, honestly, like, you know, look, if if, you know, if a bomb had just gone off in New York, you would have heard about it. That’s that’s true. But it’s also causes students to discount a lot of things that are true. Right. [00:13:49][116.5]

Adam: [00:13:50] A lot of true, important things happen that we don’t hear about. That’s one of the problems with the news. [00:13:54][4.7]

Michael: [00:13:55] I mean, so so, you know, you can apply that same logic and you can say, look, if families were really being separated at the border like this, obviously everybody would be talking about this and you can dismiss it in that way. So. So this sort of a double edged sword here with plausibility. But the key to plausibility is you’re not really great at assessing the plausibility of things that you don’t have familiarity with. So it seems like a simple point. [00:14:23][28.0]

Adam: [00:14:25] I mean, this is a great I’m sorry as you’re talking about this it started to overwhelm me like the magnitude of the challenge that you were faced with online, not just online and our entire media ecosystem of being constantly confronted with false claims or dubious claims or angles takes that are, you know, have some ulterior motive behind them. And the challenge for the average person to weed through them is enormous, especially when you still got to eat and, you know, brush your teeth and make a living. Do you feel the same way? I mean. [00:15:08][42.1]

Michael: [00:15:08] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it’s I think it’s made even worse by there’s a sort of moral belief that we hold that we we need to have an opinion on everything, you know, that, you know, if you ask somebody, hey, what’s your opinion on this? And someone says, you know, honestly, I don’t know. You know, that’s somehow that’s somehow less than. But but honestly, a lot of times we don’t know. Right? And we’re probably in this gets into a whole sort of different thing maybe than than critical thinking. But, you know, it’s OK. It’s OK not to know. Right is it’s OK. It’s OK to realize, you know, that you don’t know. And so there’s this idea that we should have an opinion and we should be forming opinions on everything relatively instantly. This is, of course, exacerbated by social media, where social media is is is a B.F. Skinner like process, where a bunch of things are thrown in front of you and you’re supposed to immediately sort of weigh in. Do I like this? Do I retweet this, do I ignore this sort of thing. And so so you get into the you get into this. You get into this, you get into this cycle where where we’re supposed to have an opinion and everything, and we’re supposed to somehow develop that ourselves. We can never sort of defer and say, you know you know, on this one, I’m just going to go with what you know, Fauci says. I mean, you know, what does Fauci whatever Fauci says I’m going to you know, there’s a sort of there’s a sort of weirdness people feel about that. They want to feel like they’ve dug in. They’ve done the research. They’ve looked at all the they’ve looked at all that they can navigate. And they’ve completely like they’ve rerun the math themselves in. It’s it’s kind of a bizarre. It’s kind of a bizarre way of thinking about truth seeking in infamy, if you think about it. [00:17:07][118.6]

Adam: [00:17:07] And there’s this odd thing where, you know, I think your criticism of the traditional way that we talk about critical thinking, media literacy, I think is fundamentally right, because the thing that you’re always told is, hey, do your own research, think critically and do your own research. And that actually, what kind of advice is that? First of all, you’re asking people who are not professional researchers and are certainly not experts in whatever the topic is that they’re researching to do their own research. Using what tools? The Internet. I mean, I’ve only recently rediscovered in my thirties a good way to research is to go down to the public library. And you have with you you still you actually do get better information than you do on the Internet because so much good information is locked inside of books. But OK, let’s say you do that. You do your own research on whatever the topic is. Well, if I think about who is perpetrating the worst misinformation online, the biggest conspiracy theorists, the people who are spreading the most dangerous falsehoods, they’re almost all nonprofessionals who are doing their own research. It’s some it’s some like computer programmer with a medium account going like, well, hold on a second. I ran my own numbers on, you know, covid and here’s why I think it came from a lab or whatever. And they write it very flashily and it goes and and you’re looking at you go, this person actually doesn’t know what the fuck they’re talking about. They just sat around their kitchen table and came to and found a way to get to the conclusion they wanted to come to. And so we’re asking people to almost become a sprinter’s of misinformation when we say this. [00:18:40][92.8]

Michael: [00:18:40] There’s a lot of there’s a lot of data out there. There’s a lot of there’s a lot of there’s a lot of facts out there. There’s a lot of events you can sort through that you can connect in multiple, multiple ways, right? And it’s overwhelming, it’s overwhelming if we look at if we look at sort of if we look at all the statistics, all the numbers produced in the most recent election and somebody says, hey, look at this number and look at this number and and look at how this change this way. And so just, you know, the sort of raw data-ness of that is overwhelming to the average individual and it’s overwhelming to the scholar too or would be overwhelming to the scholar except what the scholar has. Right. And what the academic has, what the expert has and what the professional has. The professional in a professional community, it’s not just academics, is they have a field right of people who help them figure out, hey, what what is credible, what is important, what is normal, what is not? Right. And so, you know, when you think about when you think about people that are doing their own research, it’s not that that that that research is wrong. But the research happens within a research community. Right. And that research community is hopefully a bunch of people who have figured out, you know, what are standards of evidence. Right. What are the procedures through which we vet information. Right. What are what what does credentialing look like in our community? And it doesn’t have to be you know, it doesn’t have to be academia. It doesn’t have to be that, you know. You know, if you look at you know, if you look at your professional acumen like, you know, plumbing or something like that. Right. There’s a community that says, hey, this is a standard way of doing this and this is not and it helps focus your energy. It helps focus the way you go about searching for solutions if you kind of just do it yourself without this these sort of social structures that help us vet information, verify information, set standards of evidence, figure out how to credential different people as having some more authority to speak on an issue than another. If you do it outside of that, you’re going to become quickly overwhelmed, right? [00:21:13][153.7]

Adam: [00:21:14] Yeah. [00:21:14][0.0]

Michael: [00:21:14] And so one of the things that you do want to do, I do want people to think for themselves, but I also want them to think with others. Right. And thinking with others means figuring out what community, what community actually has the expertise, the background to actually be able to to separate the signal from the noise on a specific issue, find your way to that community and at least engage with it. Maybe at the end of the day, you don’t agree with it, but understand what they’re understand you know, the primary arguments within that community understand understand what they think is normal and what they think is abnormal and why. Right. One of the biggest things an expert has that the novice does not have as an expert knows what they see all the time. Right and a novice doesn’t. And we saw that in spades with the a lot of the election misinformation and disinformation. You know, the experts were saying, hey, look, every every election at about 2:00 a.m. in the morning, you’re going to see the big cities dump the votes because that’s the process a lot of votes. They end up getting put out at 2:00 a.m. and those votes are going to primarily be Democratic because they’re big cities. And so expect a big jump in Democratic votes at 2:00 a.m. from some of the major urban centers. We we have seen this every election, since the dawn of time. The the novice goes in and they’re like, why? Why suddenly did the Democrats jump ahead at 2:00 a.m. after they went to sleep? You know, so they can’t necessarily separate out what is normal from what is a they can’t necessarily separate what what is normal from what isn’t. [00:22:55][101.3]

Adam: [00:22:55] And then there and then there are sort of patterns, their natural human pattern seeking and their desire to sort of overturn the outcome, lend them to, you know, tend them to go to the conclusion that oh something nefarious is afoot. [00:23:07][11.2]

Michael: [00:23:07] Motivated reasoning is a lot of motivated reasoning is absolutely a lot of it. But but I also, again, I think being overwhelmed by sort of the raw data ness of it. Plays plays a big part because unless, again, the reason why we have academic disciplines, the reason why we have professional standards is to help us organize and get signal out of the noise to get some sort of message out of the chaos. And if you kind of enter it without that, you’re going to be lost. So when I when I say when you approach information and you want to engage with it, one of the things you want is someone that can kind of give you the lay of the land and someone that you trust to, right. It’s not to say that you don’t form a unique opinion on it. It’s not to say that you don’t disagree, that you don’t dissent. Eventually, but you probably want to start if you’re looking at election information, you want to start and look at, hey, what do people who study elections, what they think is good? What do they think is normal? What would they look for? What would an election expert look for as evidence of fraud? Right. [00:24:12][65.1]

Adam: [00:24:12] Well, what what does someone who’s been studying this for 10 years, like, if you’re interested in the topic? The way I look at it sometimes is I’m getting I’m fast forwarding a little bit if I’m interested in the topic. Well, I would want to read a, b, c, d. I’d want to take this class, that class. I’d want to read this book, that book. And then I’d want to engage in this activity, that activity. And then I would have gained a base knowledge of the thing. And if I talked to someone who already has it, they can fast forward me and say, oh, if you look into this stuff a lot, you know, ABC, and that can that sort of general ground knowledge. [00:24:48][35.5]

Michael: [00:24:49] For the novice that is worth so much more than someone linking you directly to an Excel spreadsheet of the votes from Milwaukee. Right in in we have a hard time understanding. Or coming to terms with that, somehow we believe that they go diving directly into the Excel spreadsheet is is a more noble endeavor then than trying to find somebody that says, hey, if I was to look in this Excel spreadsheet and there was fraud, like, what would that look like in what is kind of normal? Right. That is somehow that you’re getting closer to the reality of things by diving into it, diving into the diving directly into the spreadsheet, looking directly at the video. And this is, of course, know misinformation, disinformation on both sides. You know, this this whole thing term I really hate is this idea that, oh, we’re going to teach people to spot to spot disinformation missing. Right. Because, again, you know, this idea, like you’re going to get a video of some event that maybe did happen or didn’t happen, and you’re going to look at it closely and you’re going to figure out, hey, does this look like it was fate? You know, are there artifacts here? Was this Photoshopped? You’re not an image expert. The chance that you’re going to do better at that than someone that has studied it for there and studied image forensics for their entire life is is essentially zero. [00:26:21][91.9]

Adam: [00:26:21] Yeah. I mean, there’s a joke about this on Internet forums that popped up around, you know, when I think of the early 2000s, that was, oh, this is fake. I can tell by looking at the pixels. YAnd that’s something that people would say to make fun of people who claimed that by looking at it, they could look at an image and say, oh, this was Photoshopped. Sometimes when you look at an image and say, this is Photoshopped, you’re right, but sometimes you’re wrong. I think I look, you made a comparison earlier to plumbing. I think that’s actually a really good comparison, because telling someone do your own research is a lot like telling someone do your own plumbing. It’s actually good to know a little bit about plumbing. I have a I have a home. There’s pipes in it. I learned how to clean my like, the little trap that the grease gets in under my bathroom sink. It was clogged and I learned how that worked. Right. But wh- and it’s good to have that skill. But while I was down there under there, I started going, wait a second, look at this pipe. Is that shouldn’t should that be like that? Something’s fishy here. Because now now let’s let’s be when my house was built, they fucked up the plumbing. The plumbing is bad. So I’m looking at I’m going I think they fuck this up. I think there’s a mistake in this plumbing. And then I look at it somewhere and I finally figure out, oh, no, that’s how it’s supposed to be. I almost took this pipe apart because something didn’t make sense to me. And, you know, what I should do is I should ask someone who knows. I should ask my neighbor, who’s a general contractor, hey, do you know I sent him a picture? Does this look normal? And he says, yeah, no, that’s normal. That’s supposed to be like that. Don’t don’t touch that. OK, OK. Thank you. I’m glad I asked somebody. Now that does it’s like there’s sort of a that doesn’t mean any plumber you ask is going to help you out. Not every plumber is great, but the general, like expertize, does play a role here, as does having a general awareness of how the system works yourself. [00:28:11][109.8]

Michael: [00:28:11] And you bring a good point up there. You get sometimes you get bad plumbers, right? Sometimes you get good plumbers. One of the things we try to teach people when we look at SIFT. Right, that’s our model for it. Right. Stop investigate the source, find better coverage and trace claims. Go to media to the original context. One of the things in that in that in that f right. That that they’d find other coverage is not necessarily that you’re finding one person, but you’re looking and saying, hey, is there is there anything that represents the views of a bunch of experts in the field? Right. Because you know what you would like, if you like some advice that’s not just dependent on whether you happen to get the one good plumber. Right? There’s there are good doctors there. There are bad doctors. There are doctors that believe a lot of sort of ridiculous things. And there’s doctors who are quite, quite good. So one of the things we do teach students is there’s there’s it’s worth it. Looking for something like the American Medical Association. Why? Because that’s a large organization that attempts to speak for the common knowledge, the consensus of a large body of medical professionals. And they have to be careful too right. I mean, they’re not going to say anything that disagrees with a significant amount of their membership. They’re going to make sure that when they make various statements about things, that they’re supported by the evidence that it’s broadly a consensus, at least among medical professionals. And when you find something like that, that’s more useful to you than the view of a single person. So you start to see how it is. We almost have it completely backwards, right? We think, oh, here’s the evidence. If I went directly to the evidence, like, then I would get the best of. And then maybe we step back from that and say, OK, well, if I can’t go directly to the events, I will find the one expert, the one smartest expert to the person, the one expert who is right and in and then, you know, and then you say, well, what? You know, but that’s that’s that’s flipped backwards. That’s upside down. You probably want to look and see what a body of experts says, right. If you couldn’t find a body of experts, then maybe you’d want to resort to just finding finding a decent expert on a subject. So if you’re doing plumbing, you’d want to say, hey, look, what is the standard in here? Was is there is there is there is there some place I can go that says, hey, this is the standard way you should be doing this? That is not just one person, right? What if you think about your house? Right. There’s standards for how the stuff is done in your house. Right. What is the standard? What what what what constitutes the standard? If you can’t find that, then maybe you want to find the expert. You say, OK, I’m going to find an expert. I’m going to try to find an expert that I trust. And if you couldn’t find that, then maybe you still maybe have to go deep into the specific problem itself. Maybe if you couldn’t find a standard on it, if you couldn’t find a trusted expert on a particular issue in your house, maybe you’d have to sort through it yourself and figure out, OK, what no one seems to know what this is, how do I deal with it? But but really, that’s that’s that I mean, that’s that’s way down the line from from these sorts of things. [00:31:33][201.3]

Adam: [00:31:34] So tell me again what what SIFT stands for. [00:31:36][2.2]

[00:31:36] Yeah. So SIFT is a model that we use with students. It’s it’s an acronym, it’s stop, stop. It’s just before you share something or react to something, ask yourself, do I really know what this is like a) am I an expert in this area? B) like do I know anything about the credibility of this person who is who is sharing it or putting it in front of me? Investigate the source. We don’t mean deep Pulitzer Prize winning investigations. We just mean what is the basis? You know, what is the agenda of the source. Right. What is that they try to do, you know, and. [00:32:14][37.8]

Adam: [00:32:15] A lot of times you can look them up on Wikipedia and see oh, is there is is there is there is there some incident in their past where they. [00:32:25][9.9]

Michael: [00:32:26] An incident in their past or even just you know, if you’re looking for a first answer on something, you might want somebody that, you know, is is an expert in the field, but you might steer away from somebody that’s heavily involved in advocacy at least to start that. I believe that you want to engage with advocates. Right. But I’m just saying, as you start to orient yourself to a new question, you might not want to start with advocates. Right, because. [00:32:50][23.2]

Adam: [00:32:50] You might not want to start with someone who works for a think tank that’s funded by an industry. [00:32:54][4.5]

Michael: [00:32:55] Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And it’s not to say that that that the work they do is never useful. It’s simply to say that if I’m asking for the sort of a map of the landscape of an issue, I probably want to start with somebody that isn’t, you know, drawing a map to try to get me to where they want me to go. Right. I want someone that’s just interested in drawn maps as much as possible. And so and so you look at that in this can be really simple. You know, you see a story. It says, hey, look, there’s a coronavirus outbreak at our local high school. We had covid outbreak at our local high school. Someone shares that it could just be hovering over like the profile and saying, oh, actually, this is a local reporter. They’re not going to throw away. You know, they’re going to they’re going to have enough care with this issue that they’re not simply going to report a rumor. Right. Or, hey, you know, this person here, this is a local comedy account. You know, we see this all the time, actually, especially on the left. A lot of times you see you see literal jokes, gorilla channel, probably the biggest example of this little, you know, jokes that people make going viral, even though the person sharing on Twitter, the person sharing it on Instagram, the person wherever person is sharing it, says right in their account. Hey, comedian. Comic tweets. And people haven’t even looked and said, hey, this is a comedian, that that’s a different context. I’m slowing down here little. So let me get through the other the other pieces of it. So so again, investigate the source, figure out, hey, is this a medical research or is this a conspiracy theorist? Is this a local news reporter? Is this a local comedian? Then if for the issue that you’re looking at, that level of authority, credibility and trustworthiness is not sufficient, then find better coverage and we really, really encourage people. This is probably the biggest lesson in our in our curriculum. Be be really. We really encourage people to not stick on the piece of information that comes to them, the source that comes from and this is one of the things that social media really pushes you to do, you get a story from somebody and something you’re interested in. But rather than backing up and saying, hey, if I really was interested in this where would I go to find a good a good coverage of this, you end up engaging with that story because that happens to be the one that came in front of you. Right. So so this is just this is just a bad way to go about things. Right. And so find better coverage means. OK, so I got this story. It’s from someone maybe I don’t trust implicitly. Rather than sort of going through everything and trying to figure out, hey, you know, what are they saying was true, why are they saying this false is if I just ditched this whole thing over here, go find another story and go to Google News search. You know, if someone is there’s a rumor that someone just died, you know. You know, Keanu Reeves rule is is you want to know if Keanu Reeves died or if it’s a hoax on Twitter. You don’t delve deeply into the tweet. You go to Google News and you search Keanu Reeves. I mean, if Keanu Reeves this is feels creepy now. [00:36:17][201.6]

Adam: [00:36:19] There’s there’s almost always there’s almost always other coverage of whatevers opinion. [00:36:23][3.6]

Michael: [00:36:24] Almost always other coverage. [00:36:25][0.2]

Adam: [00:36:25] Read a couple go, go look at The New York Times and the L.A. Times side by side. And they just just see what else is out there. [00:36:34][8.7]

Michael: [00:36:34] You know, there’s there was a coverage, there’s coverage. There’s a Keanu Reeves death hoax. The reason why it’s in my head is of death hoax some few years back, I say Keanu Reeves died while. [00:36:44][10.3]

Adam: [00:36:44] You’re saying he didn’t die? [00:36:45][0.9]

Michael: [00:36:47] No he didn’t die. Let’s be really clear about this. [00:36:48][1.0]

Adam: [00:36:49] I thought I was an impostor in Always Be My Maye. [00:36:53][4.0]

Michael: [00:36:53] OK, well. There was this there was a story that he died while snowboarding that went viral. Right. And you get into that plausibility trap. Right. What do people do? This this is really weird thing that happens with people psychologically where the more details something has, the more they tend to think it’s real. Like people think that, you know, it’s it’s more likely, you know, it’s more likely to die from lung cancer by smoking than it is to die from lung cancer, which is like a logical impossibility right now. But Keanu Reeves dies by snowboarding. People start to delve into that mentally. And they’re like, well, yeah, I do know that Keanu Reeves does snowboard. Snowboarding is dangerous. So you get into this place don’t do that. Let’s not just go to Google News type in Keanu Reeves. If something happened to Keanu Reeves, the whole world will be talking about it on Google News. And then the last piece is just trace claims, quotes and media to the original context. So we see a lot of times that people use real media, real pictures. We saw this with mail dumping narratives in the election. Right. So people would use pictures of postal workers dumping mail in 2018. And then they would say, you say, look at this, you know, massive fraud. Right. If you trace that photo to the source or if you click the story even sometimes and look at the date, you’re like, actually this is from you from years ago. Right. Very similar things. Very often you’ll see a photograph or a video where maybe the the beginning has been clipped out. We saw this we saw this with the Covington video, right where the beginning had been clipped off and then everybody got outraged about it. And then it turned out to be a much more nuanced situation once people saw the full video. Right. And so if people had said, hey, this is so this is coming from someone I don’t know, I want to see the fullest version of this video to start then then again, trace trace that to the to the to the source and see if that that original context shed some light on the nature of that. [00:39:07][133.7]

Adam: [00:39:09] So SIFT. Stop, investigate. [00:39:10][1.7]

Michael: [00:39:12] Yep. [00:39:12][0.0]

Adam: [00:39:12] And then what were the other two? [00:39:12][0.5]

Michael: [00:39:13] Find better coverage and then trace claims, quote, and media to the original context. [00:39:18][4.7]

Adam: [00:39:19] I really love this acronym, but I do feel it’s a little hard to put into practice in our current media environment. And I want to find out how if I know how you feel about that. But we’ve got to take a quick break. We’ll be right back with more Mike Caulfield. [00:39:32][13.0]

Adam: [00:39:45] OK, we’re back with Mike Caulfield. So you talked right before about right before the break about SIFT, about this acronym for for helping us avoid misinformation. But it occurs to me that you used a couple of examples that went super, super wide, even in the mainstream media. You talked about the Covington video with the kids in Washington, D.C., with the standoff with the Native American man beating a drum where there was a shortened version of this video that we then finally saw the long version. You talk about Miss Mis attributed photos that put me in mind of last year when, you know, there are all these stories about that the US Postal Service is getting rid of blue mailboxes, that they’re that they’re destroying mailboxes. And there were these photos of like dumps full of mailboxes. And then the story came out, oh, wait, those are actually very normal. Those are old photos of normal mailbox dumping grounds. It is the case that, you know, there are some cuts being made of the Postal Service that should concern us. However, these photos are not accurate, but that went very, very wide. And not just, you know, you know, random kooks saying this on social media. This was sort of really touched mainstream media coverage. And so we’re in this media environment where this happens daily, as a matter of course. Do you feel we are in a crisis situation with misinformation? I mean, people people say that we are. But you study for a living. Do you think it’s really bad and that it’s worse than it’s ever been? [00:41:22][97.6]

Michael: [00:41:24] Well, you know. In the field of misinformation, people debate this all the time is is it worse, is it just more visible? The school of thought that that I subscribe to is that at least the types of misinformation we’re seeing now are more wired in to people in positions of authority and power now, and I’m going to make one little but immensely important footnote on that. When you look at the history of racism in this country, you find that misinformation in disinformation about race very often had its hands on the levers of power, too. Right. So I want to make that really, really clear. It’s not unprecedented in that sense, but the sort of broad misinformation about everything in the way that it’s woven itself into, say, Congress, you know, people, political people sharing it, being exposed to it the way that it’s affecting professions. This is this is, I think, new in that way. If you think about, for example. We’re looking at vaccines and there’s some issues with nurses and EMTs and things like that that some of them are actually refusing the vaccine. And why is that? Well, it turns out that EMTs and nurses also are on Facebook. Right? You know, in so you start to have people, you know, who normally would be getting most of their information through those through those really reputable and largely trustworthy channels. Now, getting this all this because they want to share pictures of their kids. They’re also exposed to this stream of things that that is is creating the sort of distrust in many places where distrust is not warranted. And so so I think that element, the way in which you’re seeing also this with, you know, with police departments. Right. So nurses, police departments, policymakers. They’re all they’re all you know, they’re all engaged in their profession, in their field, but they’re also exposed to this massive amount of misinformation and disinformation. And I really worry about the way that that shapes policy, shapes the roll out of of various initiatives. I mean, I think that I think that’s that can be really, really destructive. [00:44:14][170.0]

Adam: [00:44:15] Well, it poses a problem for your methodology, I think, to a certain extent, because, you know, you talk about well, let’s let’s defer to experts or at least let’s consult experts when we’re trying to answer a question like this. Let’s go talk to an expert or let’s survey the AMA or whatever the group expert body is. But these bodies are also subject to misinformation. Right. Yeah, we have, as you say, we have folks in Congress who are. [00:44:42][26.9]

Michael: [00:44:44] And so the I don’t think literacy itself solves this. Right. I think it has to be part of you know a sort of tool belt of of different things that that that happen. Right. I mean, one of the things is that, I mean, in one, it’s probably like eight legs to the stool. Right. But, you know, one of one of the legs is certainly that some of these professional bodies have to be better at getting their message out, communicating it, getting in front of people in the way that a lot of the people engaged in disinformation are. Right. Because the people are engaged in disinformation, are finding a way to get this in front of people every other day in and change their perception of things in the people in these organizations are going really through a lot of traditional traditional channels. So so communications is a piece of that. You know, I will say when you look at the professions, it doesn’t change my trust in something like the AMA or a nurses organization or something like that, because I do think it’s still because they have the benefit of the professional knowledge, the the level of erosion in a field like that is actually less right than it is in in other places. But it is a it is a real is a very real concern. And one of the things that I’ve been advocating is that these various professional organizations teach their members to sort through this stuff. And, you know, you mentioned something earlier I do want to address that hey, there’s a lot of things that kind of went far and wide and where there was a lot of confusion at first, whether it’s Covington or the the the the secret mailboxes or whatever. You know, one of the things that that does happen is if you’re one of our superpowers is we can just wait. We can just wait a bit so we can use SIFT and very quickly discover, hey, you know, I got a short bag of tricks I try out, take 60 seconds in. If at the end of it I come up with nothing, you know, I can wait and I can, you know, I can instead of sharing this, I can bookmark it and I can come back to it tomorrow. And the truth is usually by the next day, if it’s if it’s gotten any sort of traction, you will actually find coverage and you will find someone saying, hey, actually these mailboxes have been around. With the Covington video it wasn’t very long until that second video emerged. It actually really wasn’t that long. It was long enough that a lot of people didn’t wait, but it wasn’t that long. Right. And so part of it is you go through this, you go through this stuff and you say, hey, you know what? I’m going to hold off on this for a little bit. And to kind of bring that into the talk about professionals, I think that’s important for professionals to the way a lot of this stuff works is you have this sort of constant stream of stuff. And you just even if you don’t process, it is sort of builds this. Over time, it erodes your trust, right? It creates a feeling of unease, right, is the sort of you know, I don’t know precisely what, but there’s something fishy there. Right. And the idea of using something like SIFT is when you feel that strong emotional reaction, when something really has affected you, that you actually don’t leave it right. They actually come to a conclusion either. Hey, this is worth my attention. It’s not worth my attention or maybe maybe it’s outright false or actually it turns out that this thing I just got really upset about, people don’t really know if it’s true or not yet. Right. So maybe I should chill. Right. So so I think that that over time, if people do engage in that sort of activity and realize, hey, I actually don’t like I’m not going to get all upset and disturbed about this until I know a little more that it will change the emotional disposition of people to some of these to some of these things. And I think it can stop. I think it can stop some of the erosion of trust. And I think it’s particularly important that, you know, I do it at the university level. I teach people to do it at the university level, to teach the stuff at the university level. But I ultimately want to see this sort of training put into all the different disciplines that are dealing with misinformation and disinformation on daily basis. [00:49:18][274.7]

Adam: [00:49:20] Now. But you talk about, you know, you teach students how to do this. It strikes me that a lot of the people spreading and who are frankly victims of misinformation are not students they’re very old. People that are long out of school, not going to go back to school any time soon. They’re their grandmas and grandpas with iPads. And how do we get the message to those folks? [00:49:48][28.2]

Michael: [00:49:49] Well, I mean, there’s multiple ways, right? So people at University of Washington’s Center for an Informed Public are looking at ways of using public libraries to get some of this message out. I think we can get some of this out through professional organizations that people might be involved with. You know, I have talked to a dozen interviews with Consumer Reports to reach the sort of Consumer Reports. [00:50:16][26.8]

Adam: [00:50:16] Every old person’s favorite magazine. [00:50:17][1.7]

Michael: [00:50:18] You know, and old people that would like to feel like they are good at figuring out that sort of thing. Right. You know, so there’s that right. But I also think that there’s this value. One thing so so when we think about professionals and I’ll come back to why this relates to students in like 10 seconds, we think about professionals. One of the things that when we look at what we would teach nurses, for example, is the majority of nurses consume good information, but they are confronted with patients that often have encountered misinformation. And the patient says the misinformation. What do they do right? How do they figure out what the heck the patient is talking about and how do they address, you know, whether that’s true or false? Well, one of the things is you can give people in a profession like that the skills to not only check this, but because it is a methodology they understand, hey, this is how you go about it, and they can show that person, this is how I look at an issue like this. And in and here’s how I’m finding out that this is this is largely spurious. Right. The same thing is true with students. One of the things we do at the end of most of the courses that the people, i.e. the faculty I teach teach the students and the ones where I have taught students directly, the students want to know, hey, how do we go in? You know, how do we teach this to the adults? But a lot of them are actually motivated. Right. So so one of the things that strikes me as I was having a conversation with a person about SIFT and they said the thing that you had just struck them was that their mom, every few months their mom shared one of these fake Facebook posts of this person that had supposedly gone missing but hadn’t you know, this is a big thing to get likes these people pretend someone’s gone missing. Share this, please. She hasn’t been home for three days. Sometimes it’s true and the person sharing that really wants to help, right? It’s not a bad motivation. And if the person really is missing, it might provide help. Right. So it’s a dilemma, right? So she would say back to her mom, she would go and she would check in. She would find out, actually, mom, this is a hoax. This is a hoax. And she say to her mom, this is mom this is a hoax. And every few months mom, this is hoax. And when after going through SIFT, she said, you know, what I realized about this is I have to tell my mom this is a hoax every couple of months, but I could show my mom how to do this because it’s not it’s not that hard. Right? Each person with this particular sort of misinformation, you take the person’s name who is supposedly gone missing, you throw that into a Google News search. And if all the articles come up are like, you know, Snopes and Truth or Fiction. And Hoax-Slayer. That person did not go missing, right? if if you find that there is something from a local paper or something like that, then that person is indeed missing. Right. It’s not hard. It literally takes five seconds. But she was she was she was she was sort of bailing the boat out without dealing with the leak right. And so I think that that’s that’s that’s a model that that I’m interested in, in one of the reasons why we try to make it as simple as possible and as methodical as possible we have these moves like just add Wikipedia to it to a to a URL and things like that. They’re just sort of dirt simple moves. And we try to do that because it’s not only that we’re teaching students how to do that, but we want students to teach other people in their lives as well. [00:54:02][224.6]

Adam: [00:54:03] That’s really great. That’s really great advice. And I am really on board with this mission. I, I do have a question about when I think it gets most complicated because again, you are saying, you know, a big thing is let’s let’s go look at the mainstream sources. Let’s look at the large professional groups and things of that nature. One of the things that I do that I focus on in my own work is finding the places where the mainstream opinion is wrong or where the professional group is wrong. And sometimes, you know, you mentioned the American Medical Association. We don’t need to go through a list. The American Medical Association has been had had wrong positions many times. And there’s been some other doctors saying, oh, the AMA guidelines here, the AMA advice is incorrect. And then, you know, maybe after some decades it moves. Right. And we we learn the truth about whatever this condition is, whatever. I mean, I assume at some point, you know, we used to lobotomize people regularly in America and presumably there are professional groups saying this is a great treatment. And there are a couple of doctors saying, oh, my God, we just stop doing all these lobotomies. Right. And here’s the problem. Now that now I look for people who are saying that where it’s true, where I can I there’s enough dissident’s saying this, that I can trust them. I believe them. However, misinformation also quite often takes the form of someone saying ah the mainstream is wrong, the mainstream is incorrect. And how do you evaluate that? A very good example of this is that I still don’t quite have an opinion on is the lab leak hypothesis about covid-19 because it’s gone back and forth about whether these are cranks saying this, whether it’s, you know, and you can there’s a group of doctors who say that we should take this more seriously. There’s also another enormous group of people saying that this is a dangerous conspiracy theory and it’s very, very difficult to weed out one from the other. Do you have any specific tips or tricks in that sort of instance? [00:56:04][120.9]

Michael: [00:56:05] Yeah. So part of what we’re doing when we look at find other coverage is we’re trying to discern. Not just like what you what what idea wins, right, what clean what what you know, what clean wins. That’s not what we’re looking for, right. We’re trying to discern, hey, how does again, it’s the lay of the land is the map of this issue. And there are different ways that can play out. You know, it could be something like global warming where there’s a consensus that, you know, global warming exists. The consensus is it’s manmade. Right. That’s that that looks one way. Right. It could be a majority minority sort of thing. Like there’s a majority opinion. And then there’s this minority opinion. And the minority opinion could end up being could end up being correct. And what you would want to look for in a majority minority opinion is whether there is any certain split, right, that that is indicative. I’ll give you an example with with the mask you know, guidance we got right there was a mask there was not a consensus that we shouldn’t wear masks in, you know, in March. Right. There was not a consensus that we should wear masks. The war we had in Western countries, a lot of people saying we shouldn’t wear masks. We had a lot of experts in Asian countries, saying yeah, wear the mask. That’s a really interesting split because it turns out that the Asian countries have dealt with these pandemics more. And so even though there’s a split there, you look at that and you say, you know, if you were looking at, for example, recommendations on mastectomies. And you found, hey, look, female researchers tend to lean this way, male researchers tend to lean this way. That would be a really interesting split, right? A majority minority thing on the on the lab thing. There’s another thing going on, which is just uncertainty. And you have a lot of experts constantly trying to tell people repeatedly, we just don’t know. We just don’t know. And you have a lot of people trying to block that out and turn that into a yes or no in the case has been on the on the lab situation that it’s a theoretical possibility. Right. There are there’s a scattered amount of information that could be read one way or another way. And the majority of experts say we actually just don’t know, right, and people are not willing to take uncertainty for an answer. And and it translates unfortunately it translates. However, this turns out. Right. Is going to translate into. Well, you said one thing and then we go back and you look at the comments and it’s like, no, actually, most a lot of people are saying, if you look at the experts in the area, there was there was a lot of uncertainty at the start. [00:59:11][185.8]

Adam: [00:59:11] But we can note that. So here. So, you know, again, I’ve read some of the debate on this issue, and it I find it slightly it bothers me when I read it and I’m trying to figure out why. I also don’t really have a stake in it, you know, but I think part of the reason it starts to look like misinformation to me and I start to put in that bucket is because the folks who are there seem to be folks pushing the lab leak piece of it, that there seems to be some amount of wanting to be punitive against China or against the medical research establishment or they say it was a lab leak, it was these people’s fault. And, you know, we need to acknowledge that. And then scientists say, well, we actually don’t know. And they say, oh, but it could be, though. It could be. And you’re ignoring it. [00:59:58][46.4]

Michael: [00:59:59] And let’s let’s be specific about that. [01:00:00][1.5]

Adam: [01:00:00] There’s a width of motivated reasoning there. [01:00:02][1.5]

Michael: [01:00:02] I think I think what you’re seeing is you’re seeing the people that are very motivated, that have a punitive reason, are expressing a level of certainty about the yes, it happened. The people who are not motivated are expressing a level of uncertainty. And maybe that in in what I would watch in a situation like that is I would watch those people that that that seem to be unmotivated by that. And I would watch if their uncertainty starts to trend one way or another, that would be a really important signal to to you. Right. But you kind of you get that, I think, again, by sort of looking at, hey, of the people that hold this opinion strongly, what do they look like of the people that are uncertain? You know, what what what do they look like as a group? What what is their background of the people, that of the people that believe it didn’t happen? And we can show that it didn’t happen for various reasons. What what does their background look like? And that’s an incredibly complex issue. And part of what we’re talking about with SIFT is really dealing with the simple issues very quickly, so if you want to give your more attention to a question like that, you can give more attention to that without even allowing an issue like that. I’ll give you an example of the way an issue like lab-leak gets exacerbated by things that SIFT does deal with. There is a just after we started getting a lot of coverage of covid-19 in this country in February, a Harvard professor, I think, was arrested for illegally working with the Chinese government. That is, they were taking some money for a bunch of projects that they hadn’t disclosed and so on. And you worked at a lab in Harvard in and this was blown up as. Right. This guy was working with with Wuhan. He has a background in chemical warfare. You know, all this stuff. None of that’s true. What’s true is that he works on a number of things, none of which relate to covid-19. If you click the article and you actually read the article being shared, you can find that out. And in all of this stuff was sort of built around it. Right. You are going to have a better make better decisions on a on an issue like this if you can immediately kind of you know, if you have a standard of evidence. Right. You can really say, look, I don’t want to be tracked by that. I don’t want to be like filtering out all that stuff and coming down to what the what the basics, what the basics of the issue are. And then and then, of course, again, really, when you see phrases people, scientists use for uncertainty, understanding that they really mean they’re uncertain and understanding what that uncertainty means, that’s a more complex issue. But I think one that we’ve got to get better at because otherwise what people feel like is. People feel like science is constantly whiplashing back and forth in a lot of cases. There are a lot of cases where science is actually moving forward in a fairly measured fashion. Right. It’s just that that the headlines that we’re sort of exposed to create every new study has a new consensus. [01:03:26][203.6]

Adam: [01:03:27] Yeah. I mean, there’s a need to be able to separate out the science from the media coverage of the science to a certain extent. Like, I think another good example of that is at the very beginning of the pandemic, when the medical advice was very much about wiping down surfaces, surface-based, and then the media kept repeating that that became our cultural understanding of how to fight coronavirus. And then within a couple of months, we started to realize scientists are to realize, oh, this is actually spread via aerosols through the air. But that message wasn’t getting out yet. It wasn’t permeating the media. So you had all these scientists saying, hold on a second, aerosols, aerosols, aerosols. There was like a contact tracing study of like a restaurant I think in Taiwan. There were multiple infectious disease experts saying this. If you look at the pattern, there’s a case with a choir. We covered this on this podcast. And then it it at that moment, it was sort of like this dissidents group, because it was these are folks who are counterpose against the mainstream media, but they were scientists. [01:04:35][67.6]

Michael: [01:04:38] So so one of the things is people a lot of conspiracy theorists want you to confuse a fringe idea with a minority idea. Right. And those are two different things. Right. A minority position is one, which is not the majority position within a discipline or a field, but which is engaged with the people in their field trying to make the case right. And the people in the field are engaged with dealing with the very real evidence and objections that that that minority position raises. Right. A fringe position is just that is fringe because it actually doesn’t engage with the field at all or. And it doesn’t want to. Right. It doesn’t want to. Right. There’s not a desire to engage with the field because the field has certain standards of evidence, certain processes, certain things which make which which are not conducive to the specific fringe idea. And they feel like their case is better made by sort of directly taking the fringe idea to the public, which does not understand what those standards of evidence are know and so forth. And so these are these are two very different things. And I think what you find is there are a lot of people invested in making you think that they’re the that they’re the same that the same thing. And usually if an idea has some legs, right? Usually not always. I mean, like as you said, you go into a lot of cases, you know, on this program, on your TV show, where people got things very wrong. And nutrition is like one of the worst cases of this, but where with a. With an idea that has some legs on it, you can usually convince some people in your field, hey, let’s let’s you know, let’s take a look at this. Maybe not everybody in there is. There is. I mean, the nature of. We know that the culture of science can be resistant to new ideas sometimes they absolutely can, but there’s also a huge benefit to people that end up breaking through that in showing the new idea. Right. So so there are different incentives in that. And I think what you do find is, in most cases, a person with an idea with this, there’s good evidence can actually at least build a small community within a discipline. You know, it’s weird in some ways. My approach to media literacy is is a minority position in terms of my profession. Right. The profession actually engages in this thing they’ve done since the 1990s. I’m saying that thing doesn’t work. You know, and so I. [01:07:25][167.2]

Adam: [01:07:25] Hold on a second. Hold on a second. I need to I need to stop. [01:07:29][4.2]

Michael: [01:07:30] OK, is this too meta for the program? [01:07:32][2.4]

Adam: [01:07:33] Yeah. OK, Michael, I got to investigate the source while I did learn about him from a piece of New York Times. So that’s pretty good. But I need to go I need to go find other OK, but I’ll do that right after I’m done. [01:07:45][12.5]

Michael: [01:07:46] OK, so so here’s here’s what you know. If people were looking into my minority idea here. I would encourage them to look at the number of of professionals of some of the librarians that teach this stuff all the time and constantly assess it, the uptake in that the recent some of the recent research that has come out on lateral reading, which is, you know what, one of the underlying principles of this is something we call lateral reading. But you’d look at that and you’d find it small. Right. But what you’d find is actually I did not when I when I started going out and proposing this stuff, I did not have a hard time gaining relatively quickly a group of professionals who understood, hey, what we’re doing is not working. Let’s try this, assessing it, finding out it did work and ingrowing that it was not. Even though this is like fundamentally opposite of the way that we’ve done things since the 90s and higher education. I was able I was able to get because the idea was valuable and useful within the profession, I was able to get a group of people around it relatively relatively quickly. Now, if I if after four years, every single librarian I had talked to has said, you don’t know what you’re talking about. I tried this and I had you know, it was it the students the students are worse at this than ever right. Every single you know, if I could not find any library in the country or any set of librarians in the country, librarians often do the inflated college level like a I assume everybody knows that. Maybe if I couldn’t find that, I think you’d be right in saying, like, you know, why why are we listening to this guy, the people that do this? Nobody actually nobody actually finds this useful. Right. Yeah. And so, so so it’s important for us to do this. I’m defending myself as a as a minority idea, but I’m absolutely I’m absolutely. I’m absolutely. Sensitive to these issues because because, you know, I am in that I am in that position, but I’m out there and I’m not I’m not just taking my case to nonprofessionals, non academics. I’m out there trying to engage with the academic community, engage with the professional community, make the case and change how we think about this. [01:10:12][146.4]

Adam: [01:10:12] Yeah, you’re not the person who’s been pushing an idea that has been tested and failed and nobody liked and is no longer invited to the conferences. And everyone says, oh, my gosh, this person is embarrassing themselves. That’s what everyone in your field says. But you’re able to sort of swindle podcast hosts into letting you come on and talk to their audiences which which podcast that do that they have the fringe people on. And they present them as though they’re I won’t name any names, but they present the fringe ideas as though, you know, these are reputable people when in fact, they’re the folks that couldn’t get invited to a dinner with other people in their field. And that’s not to say that social those sorts of social relationships are more important than anything. But they’re they’re they are an indicator of whether someone’s ideas have legs or not, because. Yeah, if you’re talking about the entire the entire community of the people who do this, you should be able to get at least, you know, a fair hearing and some friends in the community, if you’re if you’re going about it in the right way and your ideas have have legs and are coherent. [01:11:14][61.9]

Michael: [01:11:15] If you could be the person that proved right, if you could be the person that proved that climate change was not manmade. If if you actually thought you had the evidence for that and you could show it to a group of professionals, and gain any sort of following on that, I want to be careful here. I want to state again and again like climate change is manmade. Very serious. There’s an absolute consensus. But let’s say you were a person in somehow you came across evidence that it’s not man-made. You if you did that successfully, you would be in the history books, right you would be in the history books that the incentives for that they had set, they are heavy incentives for people to just continue what they’re doing in the dominant paradigm. But for a small group of people, especially people that are maybe not invested too much in in the older institutional structures, but but who are in the actual discipline, there are also amazing incentives for people to contest that in. And the reason why we trust things like science is not because we trust scientists. It’s not even that we trust the scientific process as we come up with the null hypothesis and they put X into test tubes and do this and so forth. That’s not why we trust science. A great book by Naomi Oreskes, who wrote Merchants of Doubt. She has a great book called Why Trust Science and and and she lays out, I think, a convincing argument. The reason we trust science is we’ve built social structures that in many ways when they when they are effective, split the difference between making sure, you know, making sure people make informed decisions. They do not ignore the history of the past, but also have incentives for people to produce new ideas. And we have systems, you know, whether they’re journals, whether they’re conferences, whether they’re particular statistical models. We have systems to resolve these debates. We have, you know, again, a system of credentialing to help us more easily recognize people who other people have at least thought was worth a person worth listening to. Right. And so is the system as a whole we trust in. Does the system fail? Absolutely. It fails. But it actually over time, it does spectacularly better than any one individual person at discerning what is true and what is false. And it’s because it’s rigged up as this as a system of some of these of the system of sort of competing goods. Right. And occasionally we have to go we have to say, hey, you know, on this particular issue, it’s not working like we need to. [01:14:00][165.0]

Adam: [01:14:00] But you can make the argument that, you know, the climate change, the institution of climate change science is there are incentives to toe the line of what everyone else is saying. Right. However, at the big climate change conference, of which there’s many people give talks and your talk, the incentive is to give a talk that brings a new idea right. If you bring in a brand new big idea that blows everyone’s mind, you’re going to give a lot of talks. Everyone is going to swarm you at the at the drinks function afterwards. You’re going to get your shit published. You write a book, you’ll go on the news, etc. And so there is an incentive to bring new ideas in. But then, as you say, there’s also an incentive just to have a fringe idea. Like, you know, people who are critical of climate change say, oh, you know, it’s this big institution where everyone is forced to toe the line because that’s what you don’t get tenure unless you say climate change is real or whatever. But the people saying that are usually being paid by the oil industry. But there’s a real incentive to be that person to when. [01:15:02][61.7]

Michael: [01:15:02] When you’re looking at the lay of the land regarding an issue, what you want to say is, hey, so this is where people fall on the issue. Are there any attributes? Right. Are there any attributes that people falling, you know, in this area of the issue share in common? And then that if they attribute, they share is, hey, you know, everybody sort of think of a map as sort of a two dimensional space and we sort of place everybody. And so in we have maybe two axes. Right. One is sort of certainty and one is, you know, yes or no or something on a particular issue. If you look you say, hey, everybody up here in sort of the the right upper quadrant is funded by oil money, yeah, that’s a big warning sign. Right. That’s a huge warning sign. If you look at something, journalism isn’t immune to this either. There was a long time where journalists did not take seriously the missing indigenous women and murders among indigenous women. It was simply was not being covered by the mainstream press. Right. But it was being covered by indigenous reporters. Now, if you looked at the lay of the land there and you said, hey, is there an epidemic of missing indigenous women? Right. And you looked up here and you said, oh, OK, well, actually, the work done, none of this stuff is being reported there. And then you look down here, you said actually the people, the reporters in these actual communities, the local indigenous reporters are reporting this, you say that’s an interesting place, that that’s an interesting division. I mean, it turns out to be a really horrifying division, given what we now know. But but that sort of pattern where you’re you’re seeing not only, hey, what’s you know, it’s not like everybody takes a vote and we just go with what the vote is. You want to get a very quick lay of the land, understand where people fall and understand, like you were saying about about the about the lab leak thing. One of the things that you’re noticing is that the people that are expressing, you know, highest on the axis of certainty and yes, it happened are also a bunch of people who are tend to be engaged in a sort of a political gamesmanship. Right. And tend to tend to be a certain a certain group of people. [01:17:22][139.8]

Adam: [01:17:24] Let’s say anti China people would be what I feel I’ve noticed. [01:17:26][2.4]

Michael: [01:17:27] Yeah. And so what you would say is, look, the certainty here seems to be associated with a particular political valence, right? The which makes me think that maybe maybe a level of uncertainty is is is warranted here, right. If it turns out that as this as this field, as a sort of, you know, again, this sort of two dimensional map of of of of certainty and validity of claim pans out, if you start to see the people that are not just the anti China people moving into a different quadrant relative to certainty or relative to, you know, yes or no as those people move, that would be a really important signal to you. Right. And so one of the things, if you want to- I deal mostly with students we deal with, we’re trying to teach them the first two minutes they encounter. But my dream my dream is to teach a course that is really on just social epistemology. Right. How do we look at how do we look at the sort of opinions expressed of a variety of people on claims in read that like read that, read that like a map to tell us, hey, you know, this is what I see interesting about it. And when one of those things would be if you have a bunch of people who have expressed uncertainty, but then you see that group in there suddenly shifting into certainty on an issue, that’s a sign, right. That’s a sign that something is something is going on in paying attention to that is important. If it’s just the if it’s just the certain people getting louder, that’s not there’s not as much of a sign. And so that that again goes much deeper then much deeper than SIFT. But yeah, my my I, I take the map metaphor, I should say, from Sam Wineburg, who did some of the stuff on lateral reading down at Stanford that inspired a lot of my work. But his he has this analogy in this paper called Lateral Reading: Reading Less and Learning More and I love it. He he says, imagine you’re just dropped by parachute into the middle of this unfamiliar landscape. And then you’re like, I don’t have any food, I got to get to get to a town, you know, I got to get a get out, but you don’t know where the heck you are, right? He said the way that most of us act is we just start going in a direction. You know, but what we want is we want to understand we want to understand where we are and then start to be a little more methodical about that. And if you extend that metaphor, I think what you really want is, is you want to kind of have a mental map of you know I’m trying to think of a give is a you know, people argue over a statin drugs, right? Are we are we prescribing too many or too little? And, you know, what’s the optimum amount of statin drug prescriptions? Right. Well, you know, again, if you lean on somebody, that’s that’s if you lean on somebody, that is if you lean on this issue just understanding, hey, you know, how how is it laid out? Like, what is what is what is sort of off the map in terms of fringe? What’s sort of a minority is the majority research associated with the pharmaceutical companies or not. Right. You know, and take your statin drugs if your doctor tells you, by the way, I’m not saying. I pulled that out of my head and now I’m thinking, you know, people are going to think I’m saying something about that. But but, you know, people have to make these decisions ultimately. Right. And and understanding this as something there’s a little more than a one two dimensional, a one dimensional thing understanding this is something that is we just want you want to sort of read the map of the field. [01:21:38][251.6]

Adam: [01:21:39] Yeah. Like there was this to bring it back to the lab hypothesis. There’s a big story about that. [01:21:44][5.1]

Michael: [01:21:44] Can I just say I did not anticipate when I came on the show that we’d be spending this much time talking about about that I would have prepped very differently. [01:21:53][9.0]

Adam: [01:21:54] Oh, I’m sorry. Well,. [01:21:55][0.9]

Michael: [01:21:55] No, no, no, no, no, no. But that’s OK. I think it’s a good example of where there has been a lot of uncertainty in the expert community, but it’s been not well communicated because the loudest voices have been. Have been certain voices. Yeah. [01:22:10][15.4]

Adam: [01:22:11] Well that’s one that I haven’t prepped that much for either. But but it’s something that I’ve read and been trying to make sense of myself in the last four or five months. And there was, you know, a big there’s a great big long article and I think it was the Atlantic I forget on this that, like, made a bunch of waves and people are very angry about it. It was a really long article and it was all about making the case for this hypothesis and to bring back around full circle your recommendation. It would be like, OK, well, maybe instead of reading every bit of that article with a fine tooth comb, I mean, read it. But rather than dive into it and look at every single one of its claims, the more important thing to do is scope out and say, OK, this is one position that somebody holds. This is one set of arguments. How do how does the entire field feel about this and where are they clustered and how are the people, you know, clustered like what are there incentives? Where do they come from? How certain are they? So you can get that sort of broader sense before you go and make your evaluation. And then I love this. You don’t necessarily need to have an opinion yet. You can just know that now. Now you just know what the consensus of it is. And I love that because I think so much of the time we are too focused on getting to the conclusion and getting to the what then, you know, I mean, this this happens with like I’m going to bring it to a spot that that there’ll be even more uncomfortable with. This happens with me too allegations. Right. People are like, I don’t know, did Woody Allen do it or not? And I’m like, you know what? You don’t need to be a judge and jury here. You can just know the whole you can just know. Right. You can just hear this is what this person says. This is what this person says. And now you have all that in your head and now it’s up to you if you want to watch Annie Hall or not. I don’t give a shit, you know what I mean? But like, you have a sense of like what the overall picture is. You don’t need to you don’t need to come down and say, here’s my opinion on it. You can just have a survey of here’s the dialogue. And that can be really value. I think we underrate how valuable that is. [01:24:13][122.8]

Michael: [01:24:14] So so let me let me sort of take bring it to even more uncomfortable place. But let me take that example, because there’s something there’s something relevant in that example. One of the things we saw earlier with early me too allegations is. An allegation will come out. And then suddenly Hollywood would race to disassociate themselves from this person, right, and everybody would say, look at this, look at this. Everybody, everybody is just one person says something and then everybody is just throwing this person overboard. And what happened almost every time, right? What happened almost every time you learned that actually, no, it wasn’t this one allegation that the allegations had been circling right around in that community for years and years and years and years,. [01:25:03][49.8]

Adam: [01:25:04] Decades, in some cases. [01:25:05][0.7]

Michael: [01:25:05] Decades. Right. And so when we think about this now, this is a this is a kind of a weird environment because no one’s being public about where they stand on on the issue. But when you actually look at some of the people are very quickly dissociating themselves from it, one of the things you might be thinking about is, you know, hey, if Tom Hanks is throwing this person overboard. Like, you know, maybe Tom Hanks has some information that I don’t, right, you know what I mean? So so I think I think, you know, I’m not bringing stuff to to that sort of thing. It’s not something I’m going to I’m going to promote. But one of the things I notice now. When these allegations come out, is that is is I do notice, you know, when a bunch of people move very quickly on this who have who have knowledge of this person. You know, I read that as a signal. Right. I read that as a signal. And but to your point to one of the things you can say is just you can have simply the position. Look, we actually everybody stand back, let this person tell their story. And do not get in the way of the story. And maybe your position should be that when people try to shut that person telling the story down, stand up and say, no, take a seat, listen to what this person is saying. That is what we do during this period because it doesn’t mean you have a position on that. [01:26:31][86.2]

Adam: [01:26:31] Yeah. People tend to have this tendency to jump to they say, oh, shit. Oh, are you are you going to pronounce them guilty? Are you the jury? And should are you going to ban them from the entertainment industry? And it’s like, no, we don’t. I why? And they say that in order to shut down the conversation, in order to say don’t listen to the allegations. And what I’m saying is and I think what you’re saying is, no, let’s listen to them and hold them in our minds and then we can listen to what the person says in their own defense. And guess what? We’re not sitting on a jury. Now we just know these things and they can influence our behavior. We decide how they can influence. But hearing it out and understanding, you know, that this is and really holding this is. [01:27:13][41.4]

Michael: [01:27:13] This is a trick that’s being done there. Right. There’s a trick being done in is being done actually at the expense of the women and men bringing forward the charges is being done at their expense. The trick is because we’re immediately moving to a decision that we have to enforce these rules of absolute evidence. Right. I mean, that’s the that’s that’s the trick that’s going on there. And of course, we don’t have all the evidence yet. We haven’t had the conversation. We’re trying to have the conversation to find out was this a pattern of behavior? You know what? Other people experience similar things. And then you have this other side that’s immediately saying, well, you’re what you’re saying is this right? You’re you’re you’re trying this person and sentencing them, you know. And so it’s important to think about what you’re trying to accomplish with these things. I think you probably you may do yourself a disservice sometimes if you start engaging with people on their terms like that. That that there has to be I mean, you have you’ll have a situation where supposedly a pattern of behavior has been happening for ten years and people just want to have a discussion about it for a few weeks, you know, like that is not that’s not an absurd claim. That’s not an absurd request. Right. You know, so so I do think that, yeah, I, I, I really want to stress this is not what what SIFT is about at all. No, but, you know, I think you’re right. This idea that this idea that to even express a sort of. Well that you know. That that that seems fishy like that you have to have ultimate evidence for that at that point. [01:29:02][109.4]

Adam: [01:29:03] Yeah, as though as though having the discussion were sentencing someone as guilty and therefore we shouldn’t have the discussion. No, we we’re going to have a discussion about it. Like, let’s do it and let’s let’s listen and let’s observe and and it’s OK for that not to result in some sort of like there’s a demand for let’s go guilty or innocent at the end or take another example with any kind of labeling hypothesis or anything like that, it’s like, OK, now let now that you’ve read the article decide, which do you think it was or not? And it’s like, no, you can hold some uncertainty and still have learned something and still have that impact your behavior in an interesting way. OK, let me end with this question. I do want to know again, it feels like a minefield. The our current media ecosystem, social media, the Internet. However, there’s so many good things that came with it. We have so many new voices that are heard and there certain you know, there’s there’s debunkings and kinds of information getting out that were not in the past. And when we had a more gatekeep-ey, you know, mass media, media landscape. So do you feel generally optimistic or pessimistic about our new communications world that we live in? Do you think that that it’s rife with misinformation or do you think that, you know, the Internet and all of our digital communication gives us better tools to combat? Or do you not feel one way or the other I don’t want to pin you down. [01:30:35][91.4]

Michael: [01:30:37] Well, I mean, so we talked about uncertainty. And, you know, here’s one where I’m I’m uncertain. I mean, we do you know, people that look over the course of history, look at the introduction of other major technologies, you know, the introduction of print being one of the big analogs. And of course, after print was introduced, there were an awful lot of you know, there was an awful lot of possibilities. They were awful lot of problems. It was. It was. It was it. It took a while for people to figure out, hey, you know, what do you know what sorts of institutions, right. What sorts of skills, what sorts of oversight and gatekeeping, if you want to call it that? Do we need around print? And so you start to get you start to get, you know, publishers, you know, publishers start to have reputations. Right. People learn to read the reputation of publishers as as a as a possible indication of the reputation of the published person. You start to have scholarly societies who print, you know, scientific tracts, but then develop ways of having public conversations about the thing the person put out. Right. And doing that in public back and forth. So you develop all these these social mechanisms and some of them are institutional. Some of them are and some of them are. Some of them are educational right now, helping people navigate. And you need both. And I think there’s a lot there’s there’s still a lot of potential. I mean, in in the the level of access to the knowledge that we have and our ability to get different stories out, to tell different stories. But the technology has run ahead of the institutions and it’s run ahead of our intuitions about how to approach it. And in that gap, we are in, you know, we’re in a pretty tenuous place. So I think I think the idea here is is not, again, to come back and say not, oh, this set of solution solves or whatever. But I do think that we have to try to move is. You know, as quickly as it makes sense to try to get people the sort of education they need to navigate this new environment in trying to figure out what sort of institutional changes, oversight, just even accountability what’s what’s what’s what’s a person’s accountability in this new environment where everybody is suddenly a publisher but is not generally held to publishing accountability? Right. We need we need to. We need to. We need to start. We need to get to some of those answers as quickly as we can while still. You know, not, you know, shutting down the discussion. [01:33:50][193.1]

Adam: [01:33:51] Yeah, well, and educating people and creating a culture of, you know, people who are able to think through these things and have, you know, the right defense mechanisms and the right habits to help them sort through the incredible information that’s going to be incredibly key. And I thank you for doing that work and for coming on to talk to us about it. [01:34:09][18.4]

Michael: [01:34:09] OK, my pleasure. [01:34:10][0.8]

Adam: [01:34:15] Well, thank you once again to Michael Caulfield for coming on the show. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. If you did, hey, please leave us a rating or review wherever you subscribe. It really does help us out. And more importantly, tell a friend or family member about the show. Share it with a loved one. That is the way that you can pay it forward both to me and to the friend who you’ll be giving the gift of Factually! to. I want to thank our producers, Kimmie Lucas and Sam Rubin, our engineer, Andrew Carson, Andrew W.K. for our theme song, The Incredible Folks at Falcon Northwest Gaming PCs for building me the wonderful gaming PC that I’m recording this very episode on. You can watch me stream video games and whatnot, at Twitch.TV/adamconover. By the way, right now. And maybe still when you listen if you listen to this in a couple of months, maybe I’ll still be doing it. But right now, as this comes out, I am hosting a live stand up comedy show every Thursday at 6:00 p.m. Pacific. You can find it at Twitch.TV/AdamConover, I bring some of the greatest comics from around the world straight to my Twitter stream. You can find me anywhere else to get your social media ad at @AdamConover. You can find my website, my mailing list, AdamConover.net. And that is it for us this week on Factually! Thank you so much for listening. We’ll see you all next week. [01:34:15][0.0]

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